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Wow tensions are still high, huh?

Posted 1 Week ago by Inferno35

Will this be the end of GT as we know it?
Find out next time on Dargan Boll C

There are 29 Replies


It says I replied to my own post but I don’t see it :( and I also didn’t reply

1 Week ago
Inferno35
 

But on the main page it says Denida is the one who responded, not me. I think the website is broken

1 Week ago
Inferno35
 

Site's still a bit glitchy. Will look into it tonight or tomorrow.

As for high tensions, welcome to the 2020s I guess.

1 Week ago
Riven
 

It's penis logo all over again. I had a great idea, and wanted to work with the community to better develop it. But then trolls blasted everything, tore me down, only wanted their idea to proceed, made snap judgements, and continued snapping at me and trolling. The consensus was actually butthole, for a while. 5 votes in favor, out of 10 total. But now the site is declaring no mascot, so it's never going to happen.

Any kind of sensible, reasonable person would learn from this. But the behavior persisting clearly shows nobody learned anything. So I'm looking for new communities to join that are less toxic. Every time I come on this site I know a fresh rebrand can make it look so much better and attract new members. But I'm also reminded that will never happen because most of the users here used to think the logo I developed for them was a penis, and any animal reminds them of beastiality, or something. Given some more time to properly flesh out and see some better rendering, the penis opinion didn't change, so GT simply won't change. People are more quick to vote for butthole and dogpile on top of me and call me hitler and a furry degenerate rather than ask any sort of questions or be patient or make constructive criticism, so I'm not motivated to engage. I'm motivated to leave. And when my friend tried searching for this site to help me design a good mascot for it, and I freaked out because of all the immature BS that was going on... I knew leaving was the only option. Since it makes no sense for me to bring anyone new here and I get no enjoyment from the way it is currently, it makes no sense for me, or anyone else, really, to actually BE here. Half of the users voted for butthole. Some users insisted on copyrighted IPs, and other users backed them up. And those were the users that didn't vote for a butthole to be GT's mascot.

People don't post here anymore because the trolls run the site. GT is a safe haven for trolls, and that demotivates everyone who wants to make any actual contribution. Any good post will be taken over by trolls, if it wasn't created by one. Any good opinion will be lambasted. Any good survey suggestion will be voted down. When the community is split on whether or not we should allow hate speech, that's very telling of the kind of people who actually contribute and the kind of people the future of the site will be geared towards. We don't have mods because no one wants to mod this place. GT's problems don't ever get resolved, people don't ever get banned, we were a two swing votes away from allowing uncivil behavior... more could be said, but it's really not necessary. I had a good idea to rebrand that would bring people together, but instead everyone went AWOL. Even now people still don't understand what that project was really supposed to be. And thanks to them, it's not happening, officially, for a year. And personally, I really don't care, because I'm NEVER going to do it.

It's not just "the 2020s, I guess," Riven. Come ON. Half the site voted for butthole, a new thread has almost 70 replies for a copyrighted IP, and more people are OK with animals if the suggestion wasn't mine and the animal doesn't make sense. The people who troll are given free reign to do as they please, at least until Riven comes around to tagging a couple of their replies, while the people who actually contribute and want to contribute are hurt. This problem is not going to get solved.

1 Week ago
mariomguy
 

So I'm looking for new communities to join that are less toxic.


You and almost everyone else feels that way -- the difference is in *who* they perceive to be toxic.

It's not just "the 2020s, I guess," Riven. Come ON.


I've seen a lot of this kind of behavior IRL, in the news, and *particularly* on the other side of the news. Sanest option is probably just to wait it out -- any attempt to fight it just contributes to the problem.

The people who troll are given free reign to do as they please,


They're really not. It does however seem to be very tricky to distinguish uncivil behavior from discussion when communication breakdowns are continuously happening, leading to hurt feelings and passive insults on all sides. There's not really a solution to that, short of forcing certain people to block each other because the gulf there is too wide. I am working on some tools to make moderation of heated debates significantly easier -- but even with fast moderation the damage is largely already done.

This problem is not going to get solved.


I mean yeah, probably not. We've tried about everything under the sun in the last 12 years, and the thing that worked best was hiring people everyone in a community respected to deal with their own individual shitstorms. This tended to only work over the short-term however. And now we're at a point where the site is smaller, there's one community and it's split over big issues. Which I guess is an inevitable consequence of forcing people that belong to different subcommunities to belong to a single ruleset and arbitration process.

1 Week ago
Riven
 

You and almost everyone else feels that way -- the difference is in *who* they perceive to be toxic.

I opted to do something nice for the site. I took constructive criticism fairly. I outlined the project and its requirements. Half the site called me a furry degenerate hitler, half said I wasn't good enough, half voted for butthole, and I was on the other side of that the whole time.

I've seen a lot of this kind of behavior IRL, in the news, and *particularly* on the other side of the news. Sanest option is probably just to wait it out -- any attempt to fight it just contributes to the problem.

I waited 5 years for the logo to be updated. I posted it recently and people still said it looked like a penis. How much longer do we need to wait before we can actually move forward? This isn't an immigration law that governs who lives and who dies, it was just logos and images to make this website better. NEVER got more grief in my life for anything I've ever said or done.

They're really not. It does however seem to be very tricky to distinguish uncivil behavior from discussion when communication breakdowns are continuously happening, leading to hurt feelings and passive insults on all sides.

No, Riven. Without mods, the site melts down every time you tend to your life. And when every single comment thrown my way was destructive... what the hell?! A few users argued and you told them to put my project, which was still in progress, up to a vote. And the winning choice was butthole.

I am working on some tools to make moderation of heated debates significantly easier -- but even with fast moderation the damage is largely already done.

BAN people. As it stands 5 users who want a butthole for a mascot have 5x more say than the only guy who's actually done work for the project. And none of them even knew what the project was when they voted.

I mean yeah, probably not. We've tried about everything under the sun in the last 12 years, and the thing that worked best was hiring people everyone in a community respected to deal with their own individual shitstorms. This tended to only work over the short-term however. And now we're at a point where the site is smaller, there's one community and it's split over big issues. Which I guess is an inevitable consequence of forcing people that belong to different subcommunities to belong to a single ruleset and arbitration process.

Everyone who voted our mascot should be a butthole clearly doesn't give a shit about this website. Everyone who called me a degenerate clearly doesn't care about any of the work I've done, or why I'm doing it, or who I am as a
member of GT for 15 years. I offered the option to revert the site to no banner, literally 0 change for them, and these people still said no to all that and voted for butthole, and seriously tried to defend it as though I forced them to. Then they voted in favor of IP infringement, and animals when the idea didn't come from me. The same people who voted butthole a week ago said my logo looked like a penis 5 years ago, so literally nothing's changed. If these people can't control themselves, then you need to. Until they grow up there's always going to be a problem if they're allowed to post whatever the hell they want and come back when they shut down good ideas, push hate, and ruin the site some more.

We cannot get to a place where we can have civil discussion here if we can't discuss the truth about our community. The Gametalk community has become more and more toxic. It's driving good people away, so the only ones who stay behind are the trolls. And unless you can convince me community consensus in favor of a butthole as our mascot is actually somehow constructive for our future, they are trolls. Trolls who seek to do nothing but destroy. I suggested an animal and S.O.H. said it was reminiscent of beastiality, it was a horrible thing that the community had to endure, and I was being insensitive by even suggesting an animal be a mascot at all, and other trolls agreed with him. But a giant flying pink bear was OK to everyone. None of them were reprimanded for this. All these people are still able to post, and yet they post nothing. Community consensus went towards a butthole and no one was banned. So there's definitely a double standard, here. They are trolls. Why not just accept user submissions for banners and let them choose on the user account page? Or turn it off if they don't like it? And ban them when the conversation becomes uncivil to enforce the behavior YOU want? You need to change not just the way this site looks, but the way it's moderated, the rules on what's allowed vs. what isn't, and yes, the look and feel as well. Otherwise, if you do none of this, you won't be able to attract anyone new, anyone young, or anyone who wants to engage for good discussion. You will lose it all.

Trolls feed off the content of others, they suck at generating good meaningful discussion on their own. When trolls are all you have left, where will the meaningful discussion be? Who will be willing to join, or stay? I joined GT when I was 12-13 years old, and I'm 28 now... There is no version of me in my life that would ever want to join the site the way it is now. There isn't any good, meaningful discussion here, anymore. It was purely nostalgia that kept me here. Nostalgia is not enough for this.

1 Week ago
mariomguy
 

No mascot? Neat.

1 Week ago
CZM
 

they suck at generating good meaningful discussion on their own.

we do it just fine on the discord lol

But a giant flying pink bear was OK to everyone. None of them were reprimanded for this.

why would we? you wanted an animal and we compromised and chose one that WE WANTED.

the only person that became uncivil was you. tbh.

no one asked you to do it. You went as far as trying to blackmail some one of this community. Gotta take a hard look at yourself before you can judge any of us.

1 Week ago
S.O.H.
 

the only person that became uncivil was you. tbh.


To be honest, I'm not sure what civility is supposed to mean in this community anymore. Therefore, I don't know if I agree with this idea.

What I am certain about is that there are clearer and more responsible ways that I could have communicated my exasperation with mariomguy, ways that did not have the same emotionally damaging quality. Sarcastically voting for a butthole is way more reserved than many options that I may have taken in previous years, but it's also not optimal.

1 Week ago
CZM
 

Mariomguy has too much to say and I don’t feel like reading it. I’ll just assume it’s drama.

I think all I did was give the people some fuel to keep the fire going. This was unintentional.

I just wanted to say hi :(

1 Week ago
Inferno35
 

Half the site called me a furry degenerate hitler, half said I wasn't good enough, half voted for butthole, and I was on the other side of that the whole time.


Despite the math not adding up there, almost no one called you a degenerate or hitler and honestly you are the only one that keeps bringing those up. Just because most of us said we didn't want a cartoon fox as the site mascot did NOT mean you were not good enough. Maybe we took it to far by voting for Butthole, but that was done long after you took things to the extreme over this.

How about this, can you come up with a variety of Characters, that are not foxes, to be a mascot? This is a gaming site so maybe make something gaming related?

1 Week ago
Q
 

I felt I already said the same thing a thousand times over, and nobody wants to listen, so it's completely and utterly pointless. I suggest people re-read the two threads by searching the individual user names. Search my name and you'll see how I responded. Then search other users and see how they responded. And people in here are denying what was going on, there is literally a record of everything that happened. At one point we had 10 votes cast, 5 of them went for butthole. And Riven tagged some of the replies long after they were made, so the damage was already done. Those votes had been removed, but if you scroll through the thread you'll find a lot:

poptart calling me a dick - still up there, though his comments calling me hitler and a furry degenerate were removed
S.O.H. having a conniption over any animals, linking ALL ANIMALS to beastiality, and claims the purple flying bear was a compromise they made for me
me outlining the requirements of the project, several members scoffing that I was doing that
Q asking what the project is, I explained, and then voted for dirty butthole after
Elite voting for a dick
CZM undercutting me at every turn and voting for butthole when it was clear he didn't care at all
Everyone dogpiling their opinions without even understanding the project at all
Many people saying Riven should hire an artist/don't hire an artist, and some literally argued with me that they didn't say it, even though they literally did
People joining Discord and pretended nothing they did was wrong and wanting to be my friend, when they were calling me Hitler and voting for butthole over here
People who did things that would be considered a bannable offense to hell and back in any other forum, but are still posting here
Nobody acknowledged I took user feedback to modify the mascot when it became apparent the users didn't want a dog
Nobody acknowledged that I was doing all this work for free
Nobody acknowledged that I proposed Riven give users the option to remove the banner if it bothered them so much
Nobody acknowledged that the design was still in conceptual/study phase, and none of the sketches were final

So, yeah. Tensions are still high. And since I didn't get an apology from Riven or anyone in this community for this behavior, which happened weeks ago, they're going to stay high forever. Instead, I have people defending what they did to me and trying to dismiss me and put me down even further. And all I wanted to do was something nice for the site. Other people posted an IP infringement for a mascot and gave me hell for mentioning it's risky. And then they claim I didn't listen to their ideas when I literally did. It doesn't matter what I say, I'm always wrong. I'm always the mean one. It doesn't matter what other people do, they can do whatever they want without consequence. It's the same situation as penis logo all over again, but times 1,000,000. And my friend, who was a professional and wanted to help me with the mascot, tried to visit this site when all this was going down. If you're not going to do anything to try and understand what happened, then take my advice, don't post about it, and don't pretend to know what you're talking about. Because every user who hated the artwork had the chance to turn it off, but they voted for a butthole instead, and now my project to improve GT is never getting off the ground. And I'm not going to deal with you people anymore. You want me to apologize? For what, saying the truth? I'm sorry I tried to do anything for any of you. You don't deserve it.

1 Week ago
mariomguy
 

Q asking what the project is, I explained, and then voted for dirty butthole after


Wrong. My exact question to the topic was this:

What is the point or objective to a mascot and how will it benefit this site?

Not the same things at all really.

People joining Discord and pretended nothing they did was wrong and wanting to be my friend, when they were calling me Hitler and voting for butthole over here


No one called you hitler. Saying you sound like something or someone is not the same as calling you that. If you look at the statements you made that the comment was in response to, you might see why.

Nobody acknowledged that I was doing all this work for free


YOU ASKED TO DO IT FOR FREE

1 Week ago
Q
 

"Some users insisted on copyrighted IPs, and other users backed them up."

Way to alienate your only potential ally here. I was the ONLY one who brought up a (potentially) copyrighted IP, and not only did I never INSIST on it, I explained right off the bat that I was using it as an example of what I had in mine. Oh, and I only got involved to help YOU because I felt bad that you were getting mugged by these guys. I don't really feel bad anymore, though. While these guy may be a bit immature with the whole butthole thing, you are being as stubborn as a freaking donkey about the whole thing. Several good serious ideas were brought up (Mimic/Anthro-console/alien/blob), and you immediately threw them ALL out because they were not a dog or fox.

1 Week ago
Aurelian
 

Way to alienate your only potential ally here. I was the ONLY one who brought up a (potentially) copyrighted IP, and not only did I never INSIST on it, I explained right off the bat that I was using it as an example of what I had in mine.


He's referring to me. I brought up using a character based on a Dreamcast controller.

1 Week ago
Q
 

If you go back and read the first few posts I made in the survey, you'll see I laid out the requirements for the mascot, as well as a list of proposed mascots and explained how many requirements those concepts failed.

Q literally recommended a Dreamcast controller, that's a protected IP. But the player character concept would not work with an amorphous blob. It needs to be a character that can act, emote, and express the concepts of all the different forums in a custom illustrated forum banner for each one. It also needs to have mass appeal so everyone can empathize with the mascot and it can attract a balance of young and old audiences. It has to be fun enough for the game forums, and serious enough for the life forums. I see where your head was at with the blob, but it just wouldn't work. I tried designing a random ill-defined character, and I was either grasping at straws or producing something derivative. A blob wouldn't be mass appeal, it would more likely be a kid-friendly character with no way to make it flexible enough to cover all the forums. And the whole concept of voting for a mascot means everyone just submits whatever idea they want, without regard for the requirements, and several people said the character should come before the concept. So... the house example. If everyone keeps arguing for what they want, nobody gets what they need. I needed to have some control over the project, otherwise I'd literally have to figure out how to make a game controller represent spirituality and sexuality. There are only two ways to do this: a trolling, insensitive image with a childlike cartoon character, or just don't proceed with the project at all and make a single mascot image that belongs literally nowhere on this site.

People don't understand the project or the requirements. Their head is somewhere else. So no matter how many times I explain no one really hears anything. They get upset even when the entire project wouldn't affect them at all. All they know is I'm doing something besides their idea, and that pissed everyone off to hell and back.

1 Week ago
mariomguy
 

If you think I threw out the treasure chest with eyeballs because it wasn't a dog, you're mistaken. I gave that idea the best benefit of the doubt and it still failed like almost all of the requirements from the get go.

I really don't like repeating myself, but that's all I've done this past week. Kept repeating the same things I've already said that nobody reads and everyone just assumes. If you want to look into it, you can read through all the posts that weren't tagged. But don't literally tell people you're making judgements on other users without reading anything. I read it all.

1 Week ago
mariomguy
 

alright, stop repeating yourself then

1 Week ago
poptart!
 

S.O.H. having a conniption over any animals, linking ALL ANIMALS to beastiality, and claims the purple flying bear was a compromise they made for me

yes we compromised other members of the community explained to me why they liked it. And the flying bear is a shout out to a retired gt member so it fits. So it hits the history requirement I wanted for this site.

People who did things that would be considered a bannable offense to hell and back in any other forum, but are still posting here

What do you think other forums would do if you THREATEN TO BLACKMAIL their members? It wouldnt be a temporary ban I assure you.

i DIDNT GET AN APOLOGY

tough shit. did you apologize for the blackmail?

1 Week ago
S.O.H.
 

I did pursue the robot and alien concepts, but landed back to the derivative problem. Even if my sketches weren't derivative, they were still stereotypical, generic, and boring. So it would've taken a LOT more time and inspiration to figure out how to make a sturdy alien or robot character out of nothing and magically accomplish all of the other requirements. When I made the three sketches and had to figure out which one to flesh out more, I realized sexuality doesn't make sense to represent with a robot in any way other than a joke, so while I was thinking how a robot and sex work and still keep in the spirit of the forum, I put that idea on hold and moved forward with the fox. I started off just changing the dog to a fox, but used the robot concept to give the fox a cyborg hand which allowed him to do things like have an arm blaster to represent video games, a more lifelike synthetic hand for the life forums/general use, various equipment and attachments for sports, and perhaps get his real hand back in the spirituality forum. It wasn't exactly what people wanted, or the idea that Ratakoskr had, but it's what the project really needed.

Not to mention the whole reason I made a feedback thread at all was to get input from the community because I felt like there would be a better option than the dog. And when Riven said a lot of users had fox in their name, I just ran with it. It would've been very easy for me to make a fox and then distinguish it for us than to make something out of nothing. But I still needed the concept to work within all the requirements, and if you actually read my notes on the sketches, I was basically striking out all of my designs because none of them would work. The sketch Riven highlighted was the direction I wanted to go in, a more grown-up and higher mass-appeal version of the character, but it still needed to work physically in the small banner sizes, which meant the proportions couldn't be maintained. I really wasn't happy with the head, but I never really got that far. The furthest the design got was the hands, a synthetic hand and a flesh one with a glove/gauntlet, an arm blaster, and a plain foot. Nothing else on any of the sheets presented could be considered "final."

The only reason this selection was so difficult and painful was because I wanted him to represent the actual vibe of each forum. I could easily draw a generic-looking robot getting flustered over a male/female connection for sexuality. I'm pretty sure most users, who don't go to sexuality at all, would love that idea. But that's not the vibe of the forum, it's making a practical joke out of Gametalk, and I didn't want to do that. I wanted each forum to be represented as honestly as possible in the banners. Which meant the politics banner had to instigate (dog banning collars, fox selling robotic fingers), and sexuality had to represent feelings like being trapped, vulnerability, confusion, wisdom, and joy in a very careful way, yet also has to be mass appeal enough so the video game forums and lighter topics can draw a younger crowd. That's a LOT to demand out of a mascot, and all 12 images had their own challenges, and an even bigger challenge making it all work together. The whole concept was it's the same character expressing VERY different sides of himself. I could get the fox and the dog to work, given enough time, but no amount of time would make an amorphous blob or a treasure chest with eyeballs work. The project itself was uber ambitious. Even without dealing with the people here it would've been nearly impossible for me to find a concept that actually fit all the requirements. I thought about everyone's suggestions, admittedly some more than others. If I couldn't figure out a viable path forward, I tabled it, and if it was clear it would never work, I shot it down. But I explained all my reasons to every single suggestion on multiple occasions and people still got upset and did all sorts of disgusting things to ME. Like, the site has no graphics now, what are you getting upset over? The idea was struck down permanently and people cheered. They literally accomplished nothing, just held us back.

It's penis logo all over again.

1 Week ago
mariomguy
 

CZM undercutting me at every turn and voting for butthole when it was clear he didn't care at all


Why would I do anything if I didn't care at all, given that I've reduced my participation on this site as much as possible?

Me being exasperated by how you're handling this situation and trying to do something that effects how the site is presented is not me having no care for the situation.

1 Week ago
CZM
 

Also, we've reached the decision that we're not going to have a mascot for at least one year, so this is basically over.

1 Week ago
CZM
 

yes we compromised other members of the community explained to me why they liked it. And the flying bear is a shout out to a retired gt member so it fits. So it hits the history requirement I wanted for this site.

But it didn't fit the project. You struck down ALL animals, and the only animal you wanted made no sense to represent all of GT's forums.

What do you think other forums would do if you THREATEN TO BLACKMAIL their members? It wouldnt be a temporary ban I assure you.

Please show exactly where you think I did this. CZM threatened to post our private Discord, and he thankfully left out the part where he tried to become my friend and make me forget about everything he did. But I threatened nobody with any blackmail of any sort. You all posted everything publicly. Anyone on Google can search it. What is there to blackmail? Anyone can use Ctrl+F and search your name and read what you said to me. That's not blackmail, dude. You're just making up more shit to paint me in a negative light so you can continue justifying your shitty behavior, and I'm not surprised.

tough shit.

You're really in no position to talk. We have a rule about civility, and you're breaking it. Constantly. Constantly!

1 Week ago
mariomguy
 

Q literally recommended a Dreamcast controller, that's a protected IP.


Dude.... why are you so stuck on this?

People don't understand the project or the requirements.


You don't understand that we DO understand.

You're really in no position to talk. We have a rule about civility, and you're breaking it. Constantly. Constantly!


You've broken it more than anyone else here.

1 Week ago
Q
 

Why would I do anything if I didn't care at all, given that I've reduced my participation on this site as much as possible?

You voted no for the mascot but yes for a butthole. I don't know why you do these things, but all your minimal participation on the site is directed to make me feel like shit and stop me from doing something good.

Me being exasperated by how you're handling this situation and trying to do something that effects how the site is presented is not me having no care for the situation.

Then maybe don't hop on the butthole bandwagon and think about other people when you do shit like this. Or tell Riven that he should hire another artist for pennies and no one needs me. I offered to do this project for free with the option for members to opt out, it wouldn't affect you, but you still had to go and say all that and vote for butthole anyways. Then you tried lying your way out of it by saying you never said anything.

You said enough. None of it was good.

Also, we've reached the decision that we're not going to have a mascot for at least one year, so this is basically over.

Well until I get my apologies, nothing's over. Because you all still think voting for butthole and trashing my name and the project was perfectly OK. It really wasn't. You want everyone to be nice to you, but you don't want to be nice back.

1 Week ago
mariomguy
 

it’s over

shut

1 Week ago
poptart!
 

Dude.... why are you so stuck on this?

Aurelian thought those comments regarding IP infringement were referring to him, I wanted to assure him it really wasn't.

You don't understand that we DO understand.

So tell me how you plan to represent spirituality and philosophy with the controller? How you intend to have him act and express in a forum banner 200-300 pixels tall from a tiny window? And what replacement you have in mind if it ever does need to be taken down?

You've broken it more than anyone else here.

Tell me how voting for a dirty butthole to be our mascot was civil in any way. You asked me, I explained the project to you, and your very next post afterwards was for a dirty butthole. Not just any butthole, a dirty one.

1 Week ago
mariomguy
 

CZM threatened to post our private Discord, and he thankfully left out the part where he tried to become my friend and make me forget about everything he did. But I threatened nobody with any blackmail of any sort.


I posted the entire log from the beginning of the vote drama until you blocked me... do you want to somehow show that I somehow selectively presented that information?

What I offered to you wasn't about forgetting about what I did... it was about putting the entire GT situation aside and following up as individuals with clear communication. Which is what I've done for everyone else in the community that I've had drama with. Its why I'm still able to talk to Riven and Grey and tnu and everyone else that I've had really poor communication with in the past. You deserve the same opportunity.

1 Week ago
CZM
 

As CZM pointed out, this issue is now resolved for the next year. Any further discussion on it is essentially just more drama. I recommend (as a moderator) that we all move past this.

1 Week ago
Riven
 

This thread is locked