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Spirituality & Philosophy

Souls? And afterlives?

Posted 4 Months ago by chiarizio

1. Do humans have souls?
1’. Or as C.S. Lewis put it; Are humans souls (who have bodies)?

2. Who else have/are souls?
2a. Is any species of animal, intelligent and complex enough to have a personality, also ensouled?
2b. Or only air-breathing vertebrates? 2b’. Or only warm-blooded ones?
2c. Are unborn human infants souls, or do they have souls?
2d. Are humans without the intelligence to be moral agents, ensouled?
2e. What about robots?

3. Can a soul exist outside of a living body?

4. If we have (or are) a soul, does the soul survive the death of the body?

5. Can a soul whose body has died experience pleasure or pain?
5a. Or any other sensation or perception or memory or thinking?
5b. For instance can such a soul repent or decide not to repent?

6a. Is there a Heaven in which a soul that has survived the death of its body can be rewarded for having lived a virtuous life?
6b. Is there a Hell in which a soul that has survived can be punished for having lived a sinful life?

7. Can a soul be re-incarnated into a new body?
7a. If so must it be re-incarnated as the same species?
7b. Or sex?
7c. Can the re-incarnation be a reward or punishment for the life just lived?

There are 24 Replies


I intellectually (as opposed to emotionally or intuitively) doubt* that humans actually have selves that aren’t figments of their own imaginations.
Useful figments that every human has or develops.
*”Doubt” in the agnostic sense of “not sure I believe”.

OTOH maybe every animal that has a personality also has a self, even if the self is just a mental construct.

Human infants normally have an inborn capacity to develop a self, the way they have an inborn capacity to acquire a language. I think they start constructing their self a lot earlier than they start acquiring their language, though; and I have no reason to believe it’s the same mechanism.
Any animal whose behavior is more complex than that of a robot probably has a self, in my opinion. That probably rules out insects and other Arthropoda and may rule out most or all reptiles and amphibians and fish and mollusks and other invertebrates. But it might not rule out octopada, or maybe not all of them.

I think such a self or personality is like software. It can’t “run” unless it’s “installed” on appropriate “hardware”.
In a sense, a copy of the program on magnetic disk or tape, or a hardcopy printout, or some other medium for a computer that isn’t electronic, is indeed the same program; but it can’t receive input or produce output or process data.

So I think, if souls exist, that they can’t be conscious between bodies.
It’s impossible IMV for there to be any Heaven or Hell.

If souls exist I suppose it’s theoretically possible they can run on a new platform.
I don’t know of any way a soul could be transferred from one body to another, and I doubt there is a way; but maybe.

If there were a way, I don’t see any logically insurmountable obstacle to a future platform being quite different from a past platform.
Why can’t a human be reborn as an octopus or vice-versa?
Why can’t a human be reborn as a robot or vice-versa?

A man reborn as a girl, or a woman reborn as a boy, would be a relatively trivial difference, compared to those.
Even a human reborn as a bonobo or chimpanzee, or vice-versa, is a bigger difference than a human reborn as a human of a different sex.

But a soul waiting to be reborn can’t, in my opinion, be waiting in Heaven or Hell.

____________________ ____________________ ____________________

I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea that anything that happens to a soul after death is a reward or a punishment.
If someone proved to me that that is the case, I would be very suspicious and untrusting of the entity or organization that made those judgements, and of the one or ones that carried them out (if it’s different).
Also; if someone convinced me there is or was a Creator god, I would see no reason to assume any relation between the Creator and the Judge.

......

So that’s me.

  • not sure there are souls

  • if there are souls they must be pretty pervasive
  • some nonhumans would have them
  • not all humans would have them

  • logically impossible for there to be any Heaven or hell.

  • no logical barrier to there being basically unlimited metempsychosis possible

  • but lots of lack of evidence any metempsychosis actually exists

    ....

    What about you?

  • 4 Months ago
    chiarizio
     

    1. Do humans have souls?


    My answer here is weird -- I don't prescribe to the idea of "souls" because the platonic duality there gives too much power to the material world. Instead I see the entirety of the observable universe as a kind of collective dream, of entities who are a hell of a lot more permanent than even the concept of "souls" can define.

    2. Who else have/are souls?


    If we're talkingthe hard consciousness problem here, then *everything*. Consciousness is a fundamental part of the universe, especially since the universe can't explain or even describe it. I'm well-read here by the way -- I've read a lot of Hofstadter and know my Dawkins and Dennett. This belief is made despite their arguments, not out of ingorance of them.

    3. Can a soul exist outside of a living body?


    To unpack this, you'd first have to define "life" and "nonlife", and the deeper you go with this the more you realize how arbitrary the cutoff is. When you're alive, you have a large array of microorganisms that alter your digestion and even neurology in very fundamental ways -- when you die they take over. If you instead get cremated, you *literally* turn into energy, which is the prime mover of everything.

    5. Can a soul whose body has died experience pleasure or pain?


    I've learned through my experiments with psychoactives that there are many layers of experience and they *all* have some kind of "pleasure" or "pain" attached to them.

    5b. For instance can such a soul repent or decide not to repent?


    Ideas like these are entirely too anthropocentric. Additionally, "good" and "evil" are constructs based on our species's tendencies towards altruism and predation respectively (both of which are necessary or we wouldn't have evolved that way).

    I'll answer the other questions when IRL calms down.

    4 Months ago
    Riven
    Sky's the limit

    As a tangential question;
    Are you the only other person left on this site who will respond to these topics?

    4 Months ago
    chiarizio
     

    I think it'll just take time for people to cycle back in -- the spirituality forum was one of the big reasons this site exists.

    As for worldbuilding, that one's tougher. We may need to do another merge to get that topic going well again, or maybe contact people registered on conworlds.fun.

    In the meantime with both of these, having shorter topics that ask the community questions would help a lot. There should be enough general interest with worldbuilding here, between IRL applications of it and creative projects that feature it.

    There are a lot of things I could do here to help, but I think at the moment I still need to focus on programming and site structure so there's some kind of solid baseline moving forwards. If you're invested in it and want to do some of the heavy lifting yourself in the meantime, we should talk more about it sometime so I can give you whatever you need. If not, patience is key -- GTX0's activity is very cyclical.

    4 Months ago
    Riven
    Sky's the limit

    @Riven:
    If you're invested in it and want to do some of the heavy lifting yourself in the meantime, we should talk more about it sometime so I can give you whatever you need.

    having shorter topics that ask the community questions would help a lot.


    How do I ask shorter questions, or questions about shorter topics?
    It seems to me the shortest questions are about the longest topics.

    ....

    The people who were active on Worldbuilding whom I can still contact are elemtilas and linguistcat. They’re active on CBB and apparently have little or no interest becoming active on gtx0 again. Others who used to be active on Worldbuilding have dropped off the edge of the Earth as near as I can tell.

    4 Months ago
    chiarizio
     

    [edit]This should belong in the thread I started titled “Does the spiritual/ideal outweigh the material/real ...”. [/edit]

    @Riven:
    I can’t find it any more but I think I saw you somewhere said something like most things that happen are at base nothing turning into something.
    Whoever said it, whenever and wherever it was said, I doubt it.
    I think it’s plain that the universe’s activities are quite near exactly balanced between processes of creation (nothing turning into something) and annihilation (something turning into nothing).
    I think if one of those processes exceeds the other the difference is so small as to be unobservable on a mortal scale.
    One of them may indeed dominate the other but the truth will take eons to become manifest even on an intergalactic scale.

    I do not understand how Christianity helps at all.
    Even if it helps Christians it won’t help me; I don’t trust Christianity.

    ....

    Am I crossing topics? Maybe you talked about this elsewhere.

    Alternatively, maybe I just dreamed it.

    [edit]This should belong in the thread I started titled “Does the spiritual/ideal outweigh the material/real ...”. [/edit]

    4 Months ago
    chiarizio
     

    As Orthodox Christian:

    1 - Yes
    2 - While Orthodox Christianity doesn't really deal with animals having souls, I believe they do.
    3 - Ghosts? No. But we do believe in the holy spirit. We do pray for the spirit of those who have passed on. It's hard to explain.
    4 - Yes! We believe a person's spirit persists after death, and carries on into the afterlife.
    5 - Yes. Death is not the end, but merely the beginning of a new life.
    6 - We really hope that everyone ends up in heaven. There isn't much in our scripture about hell. Everything Jesus focused on was forgiveness of sins and transgressions. And we continue praying to forgive others. I hope the afterlife is one of peak understanding, not just judgement and condemnation.
    7 - We take up new bodies in the afterlife, but not in the sense that we come back down to Earth as a cockroach. Jesus was reincarnated and appeared back on Earth in front of Thomas and the others, but that's the exception.

    4 Months ago
    mariomguy

    @mariomguy:
    Your answers are much easier for me to (convince myself I) understand than Riven’s.
    That may be just because they’re familiar to me.
    I really don’t understand Riven’s responses.

    @Riven:
    Your responses seem mostly to lean towards one or more of:
    1. My question is ill-posed and not truly meaningful, or not related to the way things actually are.
    2. Even when my question is a good one, none of the answers I propose are right, or even wrong.
    3. The language in which I ask my question is not appropriate for discussing the subject; my terms are essentially meaningless.

    4 Months ago
    chiarizio
     

    I'll go ahead and finish this up first:

    6a. Is there a Heaven in which a soul that has survived the death of its body can be rewarded for having lived a virtuous life?


    6b. Is there a Hell in which a soul that has survived can be punished for having lived a sinful life?


    7. Can a soul be re-incarnated into a new body?


    Whatever belongs here stays here, whatever doesn't goes elsewhere. I think it's your choice whether you stay here to do more work or not. If you exclusively do earthly and/or hellish things you probably don't get that option.

    7c. Can the re-incarnation be a reward or punishment for the life just lived?


    "Evil" doesn't come out of nowhere; it gets passed around from person to person, causing trauma along the way. Getting punished for expressing a mental state that you didn't cause doesn't make any sense. The reward for working outside of those frameworks is spiritual maturity, which increases personal agency and connectivity.

    How do I ask shorter questions, or questions about shorter topics?


    This thread (or the other ones you've made in this forum) is a good example. It gives people something more to engage with so they can start their own conversations with you (or each other. Tl;dr keep doing what you're doing.

    The people who were active on Worldbuilding whom I can still contact are elemtilas and linguistcat. They’re active on CBB and apparently have little or no interest becoming active on gtx0 again.


    Can you ask them why? Or is there a way I can reach them? The site exploding last year probably didn't help anything.

    Others who used to be active on Worldbuilding have dropped off the edge of the Earth as near as I can tell.


    Well their email addresses are in a database backup somewhere; could probably reach them and maybe get them to come back.

    4 Months ago
    Riven
    Sky's the limit

    @Riven:
    Your responses seem mostly to lean towards one or more of:
    1. My question is ill-posed and not truly meaningful, or not related to the way things actually are.
    2. Even when my question is a good one, none of the answers I propose are right, or even wrong.
    3. The language in which I ask my question is not appropriate for discussing the subject; my terms are essentially meaningless.


    It's nothing against your questions, I just have a very convoluted spirituality. I'm sorry if my answers came off that way, especially since I started talking about the site in a similar tone almost immediately afterwards. Genuinely not trying to come off as patronizing or putting you down.

    4 Months ago
    Riven
    Sky's the limit

    @Riven:
    Don’t worry, I didn’t feel patronized nor put down!
    Here’s how I did feel, though.

    A bunch of newly volunteered guys in basic training in army boot camp were talking.
    Several of them were from New York City and began reminiscing with each other about bagels and lox.
    One Kentuckian country boy spoke up:
    “I know what a bagel is — hell, I own three of them! But what kind of hound is a lox?”
    [edit]He said beagle. It sounded like bagel to the other recruits.[/edit]
    I feel like that guy: like I suddenly realized we weren’t speaking the same language after all.

    ....

    To prove that I don’t think being the Kentucky farm boy in this story is a put down, let me give the New Yorkers their comeuppance;
    A Brooklyn boy was on night sentry duty at a post in the countryside when he heard a very disturbing sound.
    He quickly called his sergeant — as he was supposed to do — and said he heard something like an electronic timer or something, he didn’t know what it was.
    The sergeant came out to investigate. Upon investigation he asked the private: “Son? Ain’t you never heared a cricket?”

    ....

    One of the nurses taking care of my daughter was a Nigerian who spoke British English.
    My daughter’s boyfriend OTOH spoke North American English (Detroit dialect).
    He once said something about being mad. It was clear to me that my daughter’s nurse thought he meant “crazy”, but he meant “angry”. Neither of them would have realized they were miscommunicating if I hadn’t spoken up.
    That’s kind of like what seems to be happening between you and me concerning this topic.

    I doubt I’m as well-read as you on this. I think I’ve read only two-thirds of the authors you’ve read, and haven’t read as much of their writing as you have.

    Where are you from, if you don’t mind saying? That might help me understand what you’re saying.

    I’ve been educated in:
    Texarkana Texas USA (elementary, jr hi, high school, jr college)
    Nashville Tennessee USA (elementary)
    Vellore, TamilNadu, India (elementary)
    KodaiKanal, India (forgot which state, too lazy to look it up) (elementary)
    Midland Texas USA (elementary)
    Sherman Texas USA (college)
    Houston Texas USA (graduate school)
    Now living in Wayne County Michigan USA
    And lived various other places where I didn’t happen to go to school, like Texarkana Arkansas or Oakland County Michigan
    My religious education was from pretty much every Protestant or Anglican school of Western Christianity but included Mar Toma (Syriac Christianity) and Roman Catholicism and a bit of Eastern Orthodox, and training about but not in various forms of Judaism and Islam and Buddhism (Theravada and Mahayana) and Hinduism and Jainism and Sikhism, including contact with members of those faiths.
    My parents were preparing for mission work in Africa so I got some second-hand exposure to what they were learning about African religions before we all switched to concentrating on India. I guess that was both minimal and muddled; still it was more than nothing.
    I don’t remember being informed about the various kinds of Islam before the 70s.
    As a Methodist I learned a lot about the Discipline and about the Evangelical United Brethren; which most non-Methodists or non-EUB don’t learn about and don’t need to know about, and it’s probably not relevant here anyway, but for the sake of full disclosure I thought I should mention it.

    So I was fully exposed to people from positions 2 and 3 and 4 from my other thread; actually from about 1.5 to 4.5, or even 1.25 to 4.75, if you know what I mean. But I never ran into anyone with your particular brand or colour or flavour of idealism or spiritualism. Obviously if you think the materi-al and re-al are illusory and don’t truly exist you won’t think of yourself as a dualist; there’s no duality if only one end of it exists.

    All of my father’s colleagues in the (medical!) mission field believed strongly in the scientific method; and since they both encountered evolution by natural selection in their patients’ diseases, and made use of evolution by artificial selection in curing said diseases, they found ways to reconcile Darwinism with their various Christian faiths. So they all believed in both the material/real and the spiritual/ideal.

    I also, as a software engineer and a mathematician, believe strongly in the existence and importance of the ideal.
    And I believe “the mind is what the brain does”.
    People have legs. And brains.
    People walk. And think.
    People have gaits. And personalities.

    A shape can be duplicated in another medium. You can recognise it’s the same shape even if it’s made out of a completely different, unrelated material.
    But it can’t exist apart from some material. Perhaps the type of material won’t matter; but the complete lack of any material would imply the complete lack of the shape.

    ....

    It might be starting to get difficult to follow my train of thought. So I’ll stop here!

    Nice talking to you! Hope you continue to have good days!

    4 Months ago
    chiarizio
     

    Hard to really contribute much because my answer for the first question is "no." So kinda renders the entire rest of the questionnaire pointless for me, ha.

    4 Months ago
    Jet Presto

    I feel similarly. I have never found anything convincing about a soul existing.

    4 Months ago
    CZM

    [@]Jet Presto,CZM:[/@]
    I also doubt there is such a thing; but I’m willing to be convinced otherwise.
    If there is such a thing, I can’t imagine being convinced it can survive without its body.

    4 Months ago
    chiarizio
     

    I'll admit that I don't think anyone would be able to convince me of souls. It's also not really something I think one *can* convince others of if they feel the opposite. By it's nature, it's innately an unproveable thing. I don't know how with that in mind, someone would be able to convince me. Personally I feel like the idea of souls is one of those things where early on, religion was attempting to answer scientific questions because we understood so little. So the idea of the "soul" was created to explain consciousness or our comparatively higher-functioning brains.

    4 Months ago
    Jet Presto

    1. I am not convinced the existence of souls is a “mystery” as opposed to a “problem”.
    Some author — I can’t remember who — divides unsolved questions into “mysteries” and “problems” like so:
    A “problem” is one we have some inkling of how to go about discovering the solution; scientific method or whatever.
    A “mystery” is one where we don’t even know how to begin investigating it.

    Maybe the question of the existence of souls is a mystery. Maybe it’s just a problem. I don’t know. I personally don’t know how to find out. I’m not convinced no-one has a clue how to start. Neither am I convinced anyone does.

    .....

    2. Assuming it is a problem, I’m not convinced it’s a “hard problem”.
    I haven’t defined “hard problem”. In computability and complexity theory there are a set of problems called “NP-hard”. What I have in mind would be an analogous subset of philosophical or metaphysical problems.
    I strongly suspect the question of the existence of souls is a “hard problem”, if only because it has lasted so long without a solution,
    But I haven’t seen any proof that it is, nor that it isn’t.

    ....

    3. I doubt that the notion of soul was part of pre-science or proto-science.
    I don’t think it’s an intellectual creation at all.
    I think the human mind is “a collection of useful gadgets” like an algorithm library in C++ or Python or whatever your favorite programming language is. It’s more like a “Swiss army knife” than like any unitary, integral device, IMV.
    One of those devices is an “I meant to do that” narrative-constructor that retroactively convinces all the other parts that whatever one of them just did was actually the intent of all of them.
    The “self” or “soul” is the product or output of that tool in the Swiss Army knife.
    It was evolved and is inborn and its “existence”, while entirely illusory, predates the evolution of the intellect by tens of millions of years.

    The bits of the mind all ride around enclosed in the same skull, at the opposite end of the same spine from the same gonads.
    It confers a survival advantage to have some kind of cheerleader or coach continually reminding all those bits they’re on the same team; or even convincing them the fictional corporate entity of a “self” actually exists.

    I don’t think the self was or is a deliberate conscious invention.

    ....

    That’s what I think.

    I am not “married” nor “committed” to any of those ideas.

    ....

    Clearly you and I lean in the same direction on a lot of these questions.
    In some cases you lean a bit further than I do.

    4 Months ago
    chiarizio
     

    I agree with Jet. I don't believe in souls or an afterlife or a benevolent god that cares about us.

    Does an ultimate sentinent being out there who created the universe or our galaxy or solar system exist? Maybe. I'm not doubting it. But I don't think it cares about us, and don't think that just because a creator like that exists, doesn't mean an afterlife exists--or our version of heaven and hell. Definitely not souls. If the universe really is as big as scientists say they are, then we


    My whole experience with my dad getting diagnosed and passed away didn't make e turn to religion. It made me even more cynical and believing that once we are dead, that's it.

    2 Months ago
    ShadowFox08

    @ShadowFox08:
    Thanks for the answer.

    I’m not 100% certain your mindset is correctly called “cynical”; because I guess I’m not 100% sure what “cynical” means.

    My mother’s death and my daughter’s mother’s death only confirmed me in my atheism.
    I’d been an “out” atheist since various events subsequent to 9/11/2001.
    But by then I’d already been a “quiet” atheist for some time. I had gradually converted to atheism during ten or more years of various experiences.

    However I detailed all that on “my other thread”.

    The question of souls is less visceral to me. I came to doubt the existence of souls, and even of selves, through reading and thinking, rather than through experience.

    I find the ideas of Heaven and Hell as objectionable as the Abrahamic idea of God.
    But I don’t find the idea that souls exist, or that they can survive the deaths of their bodies, objectionable; just very questionable.
    I can entertain the possibility that some day someone will convince me souls exist.
    I can’t imagine how someone could convince me souls survive bodily death. But I wouldn’t automatically be irritated if they tried.

    But if someone wanted to convince me of the existence of the Abrahamic God, or Heaven, or Hell, I would feel attacked.

    2 Months ago
    chiarizio
     

    So I guess my answers are:

    1. Do humans have souls? No.
    1’. Or as C.S. Lewis put it; Are humans souls (who have bodies)? No.

    2. Who else have/are souls? No animals.
    2a. Is any species of animal, intelligent and complex enough to have a personality, also ensouled? No.
    2b. Or only air-breathing vertebrates? No. 2b’. Or only warm-blooded ones? No.
    2c. Are unborn human infants souls, or do they have souls? No.
    2d. Are humans without the intelligence to be moral agents, ensouled? No.
    2e. What about robots? No.

    3. Can a soul exist outside of a living body? No.

    4. If we have (or are) a soul, does the soul survive the death of the body? No.

    5. Can a soul whose body has died experience pleasure or pain? No.
    5a. Or any other sensation or perception or memory or thinking? No.
    5b. For instance can such a soul repent or decide not to repent? No.

    6a. Is there a Heaven in which a soul that has survived the death of its body can be rewarded for having lived a virtuous life? No.
    6b. Is there a Hell in which a soul that has survived can be punished for having lived a sinful life? No.

    7. Can a soul be re-incarnated into a new body? No.
    7a. If so must it be re-incarnated as the same species? N/A
    7b. Or sex? N/A
    7c. Can the re-incarnation be a reward or punishment for the life just lived? N/A

    2 Months ago
    chiarizio
     

    I can’t imagine how someone could convince me souls survive bodily death. But I wouldn’t automatically be irritated if they tried.


    I probably can't do that, but I'd be interested to see your explanation for the hard consciousness problem. Like yeah, it doesn't automatically translate into "souls exist" or "christian heaven is real" but it does definitely point to something beyond the current scope of the material.

    Also the soft consciousness problem is easy -- you're a strange loop.

    Also, some questions I responded to but never finished the thread:

    That’s kind of like what seems to be happening between you and me concerning this topic.


    Yeah I recognize that. Some of this stuff is hard to explain even. Having a Brahman-centric background probably helps a lot -- surprised you're not more familiar given your time spent in india, although thinking about it more, hinduism isn't actually just one religion and hindu philosophy is very far removed from everyday cultural beliefs.

    Where are you from, if you don’t mind saying? That might help me understand what you’re saying.


    It won't, at all. I've lived in georgia, usa all my life (with a half year stay in alabama, which I like better). My dad's family is a combination of "have been here forever" and "was here thousands of years before the other group". Mom moved here from new york in the 80s. So definitely a lot of culture clash while growing up.

    Both parents were well off the beaten path religiously when I was growing up and I wasn't raised with a religion at all -- may have been raised atheist, thinking about it. Growing up, my dad was studying under some kind of cherokee shaman and my mom wasn't anything in particular (maybe ex-catholic?) -- they also weren't together. Dad has been pretty thoroughly christian for a few years now, and mom has been solidly muslim for over a decade.

    2 Months ago
    Riven
    Sky's the limit

    I do not understand how Christianity helps at all.


    Christianity has an emphasis on everything coming from God, including you and your actions. So it helps solve the dualistic mindset you get into with other spiritual beliefs. Instead of seeing yourself as a soul that needs to find God, instead everything that you are is just God doing things, and you can't really lose God because God's been working through you since day one.

    I don’t trust Christianity.


    Very reasonable, although the issue seems to be with organized groups of its followers, not the religion itself. If you encounter day-to-day christians they're a heck of a lot more humble and non-judgmental.

    A shape can be duplicated in another medium. You can recognise it’s the same shape even if it’s made out of a completely different, unrelated material.

    But it can’t exist apart from some material.


    Well you can represent shapes as math, which is abstract and independent of materials. For example, a circle is just a shape where every part of the edge is the same distance away from the center -- you can make them by sculpting clay down to size, or using a compass, or tying a rope to a tree and moving around it with the rope outstretched, etc.

    You can also picture a circle in your mind -- that is most definitely not a physical circle!

    Additionally, actual ideal circles don't (and can't!) exist physically. However there's still a mathematical definition for them, so they do exist in some capacity.

    Similarly, things like the formula for gravity don't exist physically -- they explain things and are "real" in that sense, but they don't actually have a material component.

    2 Months ago
    Riven
    Sky's the limit

    @Riven:
    Thanks.

    2 Months ago
    chiarizio
     

    I think it's more likely that Jews are right than the Christians, because Jews don't actively seek out and convert people, and their religion has been around longer, and the Christian religion uses the Jewish religion as a foundation. I feel like Christianity is just a version of Judaism used to control the masses in the Roman Empire. Islam is the same, it's just a religion that exists solely to control the population.

    The flood and Moses and all that has actual geographic evidence that it could have happened, because if you think about it, Israel is on the Mediterranean Sea, and sea levels were lower because we were coming out of an ice age, and so at some point water flooded through the straight of Gibraltar and it's most devastating tsunami would have smacked right into the east coast of the Mediterranean Sea, aka, Israel.

    So I do think that there was a gigantic flood, but I don't think God had anything to do with it, I don't believe it affected even close to every human on the planet, and I don't believe in souls.

    2 Months ago
    I killed Mufasa
    long live the king

    @IKM: Thanks.

    2 Months ago
    chiarizio
     

    Semi-permanent Lockdown

    Accounts are required to post for the forseeable future. Contact me through discord for account issues or registration: Riven#7868