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Spirituality & Philosophy

my treatise on why god lets evil exist

Posted Over 3 Years ago by GC/MS

I'm willing to bet perfectly good money that you guys saw the title and have already made up your mind to deny this, but here it is anyways:

I've always said that the reason God lets evil occur is because of something similar to Einstein's theory of general relativity. If you want to know how fast you're traveling on your bike, you need to compare it to something. How fast are you going? Let's compare it to that mailbox you just passed. About seven miles per hour. How fast are you going? Let's compare it to the car you're next to, which is traveling at the same speed. If you're looking at the driver, and the driver is looking at the road, it appears that you're standing still. How fast are you going? Compared to what? How about Alpha Centauri, the closest star to Earth? It would appear that you and the planet you're riding your bike on are traveling at about 6,000 miles per hour. How does this relate to evil? Have you ever experienced great joy? You have? How do you know what joy is? Because you've experienced evil. You cannot truly fathom what something is unless you have something to compare it to.

We need to know that there is opposition in all things, and we need to become independent, so the argument that God is supposed to intercept all evil doesn't make sense. Are we just going to be God's pets for the rest of eternity? No. That sounds stupid. We need to learn to defend ourselves. Even for an omnipotent Person, fending off all evil until the end of time sounds exhausting when we can just learn to do it ourselves. Why give us intelligence if saving us is going to be God's duty for literally the rest of forever?

There are 127 Replies


I understand that this is mainly personal, but I'm wondering if any of this is supported (or at least inspired) by LDS doctrine? I have obtained a copy of the Book of Mormon recently and have been trying to make time to read it. I have it at hand if confirmation of verses is an issue.

Anyway, I'd question some of your phrasing in the last paragraph. No, it does not sound exhausting for the infinitely powerful God. Were God subject to whims, he could maintain us from evil, or any of a million other concepts, for eternity without the slightest issue of anthropomorphic projection.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

Were God subject to whims, he could maintain us from evil

You're right on the fact that God does not do anything on a whim, but still, why go to any effort(however minimal as you suggest) to defend us when we can learn to defend ourselves? How is that showing love to us? How is denying us the knowledge that evil exists going to help us? How do we benefit from not being taught that? If we don't know about evil, that doesn't mean evil will cease to exist. Ignorance in this case is not bliss. Are we God's pets? Why give us intelligence and the capacity to comprehend independence if God's just going to do everything for us all the time? Are we just going to live in God's basement for eternity, sheltered from something we deserve to know about?

Over 3 Years ago
GC/MS
 

Like I said, I was responding more to the implications of the phrasing than the overall point.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

We need to know that there is opposition in all things, and we need to become independent, so the argument that God is supposed to intercept all evil doesn't make sense.

I mean why wouldn't he just implant the knowledge inside of us to begin with? I don't need everything in life as a comparison (but honestly it depends on what you consider a comparison to be or how far it extends). Why can't we just have a comparison of evil by knowing what "good" is?

Are we just going to be God's pets for the rest of eternity? No. That sounds stupid.

I mean, that's what heaven sounds like to me.

We need to learn to defend ourselves. Even for an omnipotent Person, fending off all evil until the end of time sounds exhausting when we can just learn to do it ourselves.

It sounds exhausting for us as humans but if it were a god who was all powerful and knows everything before it happens then how could it be exhausting? If God needs to sleep or rest then he is not all powerful.

Why give us intelligence if saving us is going to be God's duty for literally the rest of forever?

It doesn't sound like we are given intelligence if this god exists. We have the capacity for great intelligence but not the information itself.

Over 3 Years ago
Fox Forever
 

I think that a major problem of questions (and answers) like this is that we need to establish what "evil" is before we ask why it is allowed by God.

I would discount the entire question. "Evil" is not a thing that God "allows", as if something could be against him in the first place and he puts up with it. There is nothing that may trespass against him.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

Nah, doesn't work. That is because God Himself has to be absolutely good by definition (or, at least, I'm presuming, your definition of God is, since if God is not omnibenevolent then the question as to why He allows evil is kinda moot). Is the goodness of God contingent on the existence of evil? Course not. So obviously, you can have good without evil, because you can have God (absolute good) without anything else. The metaphor doesn't work very well either. In the theory of relativity, determinations aren't made based upon duality, but a one-sided absolute standard. That standard is the speed of light. You don't have the other side of the spectrum, which is non-motion, to perceive motion. In fact, non-motion (absolute zero) is only theoretical; it actually violates one of the laws of the Universe. Likewise, the standard for goodness isn't the existence of evil, it is the existence of absolute goodness, which is God. So as long as God Himself exists, you don't need these ever darker shades of evil in the world to perceive good. Just look upon God, and you have seen it.

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescent Ghost
 

If God does exist my guess is he is exempt from any "definition" a human can come up with. And with that said, the universe already is. Hell, we don't even know if we actually put men on the moon or not. We know literally nothing about our world and we're lied to every day. In a sense we're all insane, especially those of us with plans.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Hell, we don't even know if we actually put men on the moon or not.


Oh.

We know literally nothing about our world


Oh, my.

You seem pretty sure about how terrible things are for someone who says that we don't know anything.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

we're not all insane, speak for yourself

Over 3 Years ago
Brandy
 

The way we live is insane though. We use up way more resources than we can possibly replace. We, for hundreds of years, have continued to allow there to be an elite ruling class even though we outnumber those people. The common people always have to put their effort in before they get anything out of it. But it's the opposite if you're the government. You work all year and then you get your tax return in april. What happens if you die? It means you never even got what you earned. And money in general is that way too. If you die with 2 million dollars that you earned it essentially means you worked for nothing. Your family might benefit from inheritance sure, but unless your spend your money it's worthless. If a nuclear event happens it won't matter if you have gold, cash, bitcoins, the only thing that will matter is clean water and food. We live in a totally insane society and the only reason it's normal is because we grow up indoctrinated to accept it. We willingly slave away at work 40 hours a week or more while our betters profit exorbitantly off of our sweat and blood (Yes, I've been injured at work many times). All so that we can obtain paper that it continuously losing value so there's not even much of a point in saving it. And when we spend that money, the government takes even more even though they already taxed it once before when we earned it. And when we sell our used items like cell phones on ebay, they want to be able to collect tax a third time. How is any of it sane? We're given guidelines on what is socially acceptable from our parents, pre school, and then school and we obey and follow the paths available to us rather than making our own paths.

We might have our individual sanity, but as a collective we are quite sick and fucked in the head.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

You can totally tell the difference between "normal" and "joy" though. Not a good reason for evil.

I see what you're getting at though. My thoughts around it are that you need opposition in order to gain strength. Without opposition we'd be joyful but we'd be weak -- God wants us to gain strength to be more like him.

Evil then is just the embodiment of opposition. Evil acts corrupt the weak and maybe make them kinda-sorta evil themselves but they also have the choice to become strong instead.

Over 3 Years ago
Riven
 

Another kind of strange idea I have is that we were actually created already strong/perfected, but the issue is we became conscious somewhere in between being nothing and being something. So this Earth place is kind of an in-between place and so has elements of both nonexistence and existence.

It's kind of like releasing a game before it's finished. There's a lot of bugs, a lot of missing features. But over time it becomes better.

Over 3 Years ago
Riven
 

Also mufasa has good points. Not saying there's no social mobility (working hard on climbing that thing myself), only that it's fucked that there's a ladder in the first place.

Over 3 Years ago
Riven
 

They take when we work, they take when we buy, they take when we sell. Effortless and accepted thievery. They won't let us have the full benefit of our own work. Even the poor who get some taxes back during tax returns have to watch as the government puts their money in a savings account for a year when they should have been able to do that themselves. It might have made sense for there to be tax back in like the 1300s when there were wolves and lions and such in the wilderness outside the city states. Back then the King and his guards defended the walls. But today's police and military are just bullies. Tax is inescapable because even if you leave America, you're in Canada or Mexico, and if you go on land anywhere someone owns it and they'll tax you. You can't just freely leave. Even IN Canada where we have more land then we know what to do with, if you go way up north and build a house the government wants to tax your property. They just want to steal for free without putting any effort into extorting you. Again, it's only normal because you grew up in this world. Millennials are called entitled for expecting free college and higher wages or whatever, but entitlement is actually more like when a CEO profits off of the work of their employees while doing no extra work themselves. Entitlement is just taking what you want and abusing those beneath you mercilessly. It has nothing to do with avocado toast or expecting a fair wage.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

We willingly slave away at work 40 hours a week or more while our betters profit exorbitantly off of our sweat and blood

i think ive had this conversation with you before. listen, even though in jobs where there is someone in a higher pos. then you. we decide to take it or not. No one ever forced me to take the job i have and if you want to be one of the 'betters' you can get there if you really want it. but i think you feel u are somehow very special and superior to the whole thing, and unless you have a definte talent, like an artist or a writer etc, your not, you just going to have to deal with the fact that people will always be above you in life. but me personally, i choose not to think about the fact my boss is profiting off me, i don't care what they are doing with their life they are not helping me with exams are pay bills so why should i spend time thinking about it? thats my thought on it

Over 3 Years ago
Brandy
 

And back to my original point. The reason why all that shit is allowed is because, while we may know how to read and write and be good little consumer slaves - we have no fucking idea how the world actually works. So to think you can understand God while you can't even understand why your life is shit is just foolish.

Lies and propaganda have infested our minds since the beginning of recorded history. Power is just a shadow casted by the clever. It's not real. Us believing it's real is what makes it real. I don't take anything a history book says at face value. How many times do you think the bible has been changed in the past 2000 years? CNN and FOX are today's bible and people actually buy into it.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

while we may know how to read and right


Only some of us, apparently...

So to think you can understand God while you can't even understand why your life is shit is just foolish.


That would be a valid point if my life was shit and I didn't understand it. As it actually is, my life is continually improving and I am developing the spiritual intellect that I've only wondered about for years. Please don't involve me in your projected neuroses. As a related note, stay on topic or your political textwalls will be moved to World.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

I fixed that typo before you even posted so shove it up your ass.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

One other thing Null. The topic of this thread is God, which is something that can be interpretted both literally and abstractly. In my own headcanon I am still on topic. I am not going off the rails, because God should encompass everything. Life, death, history, time, space, matter.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Red leaf, have you tried working 12-hour shift jobs? It's really counterintuitive but I feel significantly less like a slave with them. You spend 3-4 days a week doing nothing but working, driving and sleeping, but then the rest of the week is yours. I just worked two days in a row, about to get a nice 3-day weekend. Still at 42 hours for the week.

Not saying there's not still a problem, actually I agree with you 100%, just that this kind of schedule is awesome and a step up.

Over 3 Years ago
Riven
 

we decide to take it or not. No one ever forced me to take the job i have

No one forced you into any specific job, but you were totally forced into the wage world in general. Your social class is the reason you have to choose between working for wages or homelessness/starvation. If your social class was higher, you could not work or you could do a small amount of work
in order to extract wealth from people of lower social classes.

Over 3 Years ago
Riven
 

Xhin: I have worked 12 hour shifts. I find that day 3 of the weekend is spent getting an abnormal amount of sleep in preparaion for the 4 days and day 1 of the weekend I am exhausted so it's also sleep-based. Day 2 of the weekend is pretty ballin though.

Still wish I could keep all that money they're stealing though. I'm not even anti-work. I'm just anti-tax and anti wage cap. I feel I am worth more to my customers than my employer. But the employer makes the bulk of the money and the government, which does literally nothing, just fucking steals.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

An ideal society is something more where basic needs and resources are freely available and you can choose between not working (gets boring fast), working personally for personal gain or working towards collective wealth.

Over 3 Years ago
Riven
 

Oh my job's a little different.. you work 2 on, 2 off, 3 on, 2 off, 2 on, 3 off. So yeah day 3 of that really sucks but that only happens biweekly and if you legitimately just work and sleep during the workweek, you shouldn't need to catch up on too much sleep.

Still wish I could keep all that money they're stealing though

The government really doesn't take that much. Your employer is where all the money is going. You should look at how much the people at the top are stealing from you if you want to direct your feelings somewhere useful.

Over 3 Years ago
Riven
 

No doubt. The CEOs are fucking evil and corrupt. It's the combination of them and the government why I have to work 8 hours for what I should be able to make in 2 hours.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Probably the most fucked up part is that people have no class awareness -- not even the people at the top most of the time. Everyone's operating the system blind.

People at the lowest part of the ladder will actually *defend* the system, despite being the ones hurt most by it. I've seen this over and over and this was also me until pretty recently.

Over 3 Years ago
Riven
 

That was my whole post. No one knows how the world works and yet some think they understand God.

I don't claim to know how the class system works either. I doubt you do either or you'd find away around it for yourself and the people you care about.

A lot of this wealth related ownership goes back to aristocrats, tycoons, and royalty who are long dead. It's literally just roll a dice when you're born and hope your mother is a Walton.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

No one knows how the world works and yet some think they understand God.


You are correct about there being a connection between God and the workings of the world:

There is a God and it is Survival. Just as I am the living proof of my survival in this world, I am the living proof of this God. As long as there is I, there is Victory and there is God.

Keep in mind that this does not mean that I accept law, order, social standing, class warfare and such as long as I keep breathing. It means that I am encouraged in spite of - and perhaps even because of - these difficulties. Because, fundamentally, I agree with you. Just because most people have been convinced that this is the way things are does not mean that this is the way it should be. Those with power (or influence, or what have you) and sanity will use that power to preserve themselves and, by extension, the methods by which they attain and preserve even more power. Society is a work.

I do disagree with you on weird little points like the moon landing, though {:P}

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

Well - here's the thing on the moon landing. I was really super into space as a little kid. I used to draw astronauts and people bouncing around on the moon and connected to space ships and satellites. Even through my teenage years. When I hit my woke phase as a young adult and realized all these conspiracy theories were probably at least partial true it stole all the wonder and hope away from my life. I have no idea if they landed or not. I wasn't alive in 1969. I wasn't on the moon or at area 51. I can't say if they did it or not. But I don't care anymore. That's the heartbreaking part. I couldn't give two shits. They lie about so much shit. Each lie is a rock and they've all been dropped on me, burying me to the point where I am an antisocial recluse who doesn't pay attention to the news. What's next? Dinosaurs aren't real? I can't handle that stuff. It's not because I have an immature fascination with history and a wild visionary imagination. I do but that's not why I can't handle it. It's because it just feels like my childhood was as much of a lie as my adulthood, and my childhood is sacred. And I just want to go back to the days of pokemon red, goldeneye and donkey kong country, catching frogs outside, sledding, biking, rollerblading. I don't even draw or write much anymore. The world has become so small and yet so clouded I have no more muse. I am just the cash cow consumer they want me to be.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

When I hit my woke phase as a young adult and realized all these conspiracy theories were probably at least partial true it stole all the wonder and hope away from my life.


If there ever was a single sentence that I should take as a sign that we will likely never understand each other's mindsets, it is this one. Learning about conspiracy theories made things one hell of a lot more interesting for me.

I can't say if they did it or not. But I don't care anymore. That's the heartbreaking part. I couldn't give two shits. They lie about so much shit. Each lie is a rock and they've all been dropped on me, burying me to the point where I am an antisocial recluse who doesn't pay attention to the news.


I just want to go back to the days of pokemon red, goldeneye and donkey kong country, catching frogs outside, sledding, biking, rollerblading. I don't even draw or write much anymore. The world has become so small and yet so clouded I have no more muse. I am just the cash cow consumer they want me to be.


This is called "learned helplessness" and it's actually one of the ways that the depressed, neurotic American public is psychologically controlled.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

From the very beginning, the universe has never been fair, so it's strange to me how people think that it should be. Take a look at harlequin ichthyosis or holoproencephaly, hell, just glance at the animal kingdom and that much becomes apparent. It's only because of human society that we even have a concept of fairness, equality, rights, and shit.

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescent Ghost
 

It's only because of human society that we even have a concept of fairness, equality, rights, and shit.


And only relatively recently, at that. While the roots of our morals go back thousands of years, it was also considered civil to hold slaves and publicly execute people for a good while.

However, the fact that things are better than they used to be is not an excuse to not strive for more.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

I don't like surprises or being lied to. I dedicated so much artistic time to astronauts and dinosaurs. And now I don't care.

I'm sorry but drawing David Icke's ugly mug doesn't have the same appeal to me.

What I have learned is that works of fiction have more value to my life and well being than anything the real world possesses. Literature and Cinema and Video Games and Anime. The real world exhausts me.

I was genuinely interested in the topics they lied about and it killed it for me. I don't want to see how far the rabbit hole goes I just want to be content for 60 more years, fat and happy. The bible's perception of the afterlife doesn't do it for me. It would be interesting if there was one I suppose. But somehow temporary works of fiction are more interesting than merely existing. Real people are boring too. They all have their problems and needs. Unless they're already my friend I couldn't care less.

Unfortunately, Movies and Video Games have been going down hill in quality for quite a while now. I can't say the same for books or TV though. The 100 and Game of Thrones have me quite captivated and if I have to die on my couch of a heart attack some day I hope I was watching something like that.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

I think art by other people - and to a lesser degree than before, art by my own hand, is the only thing that makes getting up in the morning worth it. I am looking after my grandfather now and after he dies there is a very good chance I'll just off myself.

Art is life. But even it is dying.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

However, the fact that things are better than they used to be is not an excuse to not strive for more.

Of course, people are free to strive to do whatever they want. But there's striving and then there's expecting the world to be somehow something different than what its always been.

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescence
 

I don't want to see how far the rabbit hole goes I just want to be content for 60 more years, fat and happy.


I want more, and I'm surprised that you don't as well. You can tell that something is wrong, but you haven't pulled yourself out of the stun of revelation yet.

I remember a while back, we were talking about the ironpill and you said that you were going to disconnect from electronic society and move to the wilderness and concentrate on physical health for a while (IIRC). Have you done that yet?

I've been sticking with my physical health push. Despite some significant setbacks, I keep pushing and pushing. And it feels good. It feels good to be powerful.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

I was on my way to doing that, and then my grandmother took ill, and I moved in to look after her and my grandfather. She got worse and I went through a depression phase where I ate a lot to deal with the stress and I put on a lot of weight. I take care of my grandfather now. My grandparents are my two favorite people in the world. She died of lung disease in November and he's 83 and blind in one eye. I've been hibernating in a cold climate all winter and eating a lot. I shovel snow and occasionally get up and do some jumping jacks. But it would be a lie if I said I wasn't in much better shape this time last year. Ironpill isn't in the cards for me right now. I am on standby. I live in the middle of nowhere and I have no girls to impress and the occasional jog and jumping jacks make me feel good about myself but I don't really want to cut down on food. Food is comforting and so are my lazy art-based hobbies.

If my grandfather's death somehow doesn't destroy me, I am moving out west and going on the adventure I've been delaying. But it's pretty grim when your best friend/grandfather's death is the next thing that has to happen before you can even advance your life...

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

There is no graceful exit from my current situation. I can't abandon him, he's my literal favorite person on the planet. I am going to be here until either he dies or he gets bad enough that living in a nursing home is the only option.

In the summer though I'll be able to be much more active.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

I think my anger stems from a very specific thing. My grandparents gave their whole lives to this system of lies and thievery. Even the religion side of it. They're catholic. They were lied to by the cigarette companies, by the media, by the governmen, by the history books, by the bible, by the newspapers and the church. They lived their whole lives in this lie. All for what? To grow old and die. While somebody got rich off their work. My Grandmother told me, on her death bed, that she cried every morning on the drive to work.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Ironpill isn't in the cards for me right now. I am on standby.


Ironpill wasn't in the cards for me when I started, either. I live in the middle of nowhere, had no exercise equipment, had no-one to work out with and it's hot as fuck here for about 11 months out of the year, meaning that I broke a sweat if I typed too vigorously. But one day, I decided that it was over. I stood up, put my chair away and did squats until I threw up. And the next day, I ran until my legs burned. And so on.

I don't really want to cut down on food. Food is comforting and so are my lazy art-based hobbies.


Well, depending on your BMI and target physique, cutting calories may not be necessary. In my case, I've actually been trying to gain weight.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

I don't mind if you move that stuff. I did drift too far off topic. I'm sorry.

I will be getting more exercise when it gets a bit warmer anyway. The canadian winters aren't kind to runners because ice sheets turn a jog into injuries. XD

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

I mean why wouldn't he just implant the knowledge inside of us to begin with?

If all of us have the same knowledge, what happens to individuality? We'd all just be carbon copies of God.

I don't like surprises or being lied to.

Nowadays, people seem to think that all you have to do is point a finger at somebody, scream the word "LIAR" and suddenly everybody and the truth is on your side. The world doesn't run on accusations. It runs on evidence. If you don't have evidence that somebody(or a government agency) is lying, then you're talking out your backside. So don't go telling me that the government is lying, show me.

Over 3 Years ago
GC/MS
 

I don't even draw or write much anymore.

Yeah you need to go back to your hobbies man. Try to somehow eventually eke out a living from them -- you'll be so much happier even during the process. Also definitely try to keep the child alive, you can still bike and catch frogs if you want.

Over 3 Years ago
Riven
 

I don't like surprises or being lied to. I dedicated so much artistic time to astronauts and dinosaurs. And now I don't care.

And what exactly is stopping you from continuing to draw astronauts and dinosaurs? Even if they're not real, you've convinced yourself that they're also not meaningful. I have the phrase "So What?" etched in my desk. It means no matter what happens or what things look like, I still have to do things that have meaning. I still have to have hope and goals. And weirdly, the more I do things when there's no reason to do them anymore, the more they pay off.

What I have learned is that works of fiction have more value to my life and well being than anything the real world possesses. Literature and Cinema and Video Games and Anime.

And you wonder why you've become a consumer. Don't get me wrong, I love a nice fantasy or sci-fi world to delve into. Maybe a game with a really big wiki. These are some of the better human inventions. But irl stuff is just... better.

Get yourself a dream, a plan to achieve it, and your first goal. Your slave job is a means to an end, so the less you can consume the better.

Over 3 Years ago
Riven
 

If all of us have the same knowledge, what happens to individuality? We'd all just be carbon copies of God.

Maybe, but individuality is more of a cultural preference. It's easy to think of individuality as paramount when you, for example, live in the U.S. and have that ideology shoved down your throat to make you scared of Communism. Individuality is conceived of differently in other schools of thought. For example, in Buddhism, individuality is important, but Buddhists do not dichotomize individuality and enlightenment as you have.

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescence
 

I have the phrase "So What?" etched in my desk.

All right, movie protagonist status over here. You gonna take the state alchemy exam and save the world from super-powered artificial human overlords too?

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescence
 

So don't go telling me that the government is lying, show me.


If you're interested in looking at some well-supported conspiracy theories, check out MKUltra and COINTELPRO.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

Is MKUltra still considered a conspiracy theory? I thought the government admitted to it.

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescence
 

Food

I've mentioned this elsewhere but I've lost close to 115lbs over the last 2.5 years by eating nothing but really awesome food over and over (and occasionally fasting when I'm not hungry). All I really gave up was the fillers (bread, pasta, rice, etc) and the sugary stuff that I don't even like now that my tastes have changed. Instead I just eat meat (the fattier the better), whole-fat dairy, vegetables which taste sweet now, lots of salty fatty sauces, nuts and seeds, and occasional bites of sugary stuff (which again I don't even want now) in whatever quantities I'm hungry for.

My food somehow manages to be both health food and comfort food. Physical and mental health have been getting better and better (best they've ever been), tons of energy, great mood, deeply satisfying food that doesn't leave me feeling bloated or otherwise like shit after I eat it.

Over 3 Years ago
Riven
 

If all of us have the same knowledge, what happens to individuality? We'd all just be carbon copies of God.

I mean who said we need to have knowledge of everything? Having a knowledge of good and evil in every sense would not destroy our individuality.

Over 3 Years ago
Fox Forever
 

s MKUltra still considered a conspiracy theory? I thought the government admitted to it.


The evidence and confession is what makes it a theory in the first place. "Conspiracy theory" doesn't mean "ramblings of some nut on the internet". That conflation exists for two reasons:

1. Idiots on the internet want to sell their nonsense ramblings as something with weight behind it. When many people say "theory", what they really mean is "hypothesis" (or even just a completely unsupported claim).

2. People whose worldviews are threatened by actual conspiracies will strawman conspiracy theories as being "just like the rest of the bullshit that that kind of person spews", using the phenomena of reason 1 to discredit others by association.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

GC it would take me longer than the rest of my natural life to point out each individual lie governments have made to their people throughout history.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

The evidence and confession is what makes it a theory in the first place.

Theories and hypotheses are all well and good, but until it's a law, nobody gets to call anybody insane if they disagree, and nobody's right to the point that they win all arguments.

Mufasa, I never said they didn't, I'm just saying that spouting that fact doesn't mean you win an argument.

Over 3 Years ago
GC/MS
 

Theories and hypotheses are all well and good, but until it's a law, nobody gets to call anybody insane if they disagree, and nobody's right to the point that they win all arguments.


We were talking about conspiracies. That doesn't even apply to this context, since conspiracy theories are about specific events and laws are general.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

Well I don't want to have to debate each individual lie with you to be perfectly honest. As Null said, do your own research.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Theories and hypotheses are all well and good, but until it's a law

Um, theories never become laws, man. That's not how it works.

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescence
 

Well I don't want to have to debate each individual lie with you to be perfectly honest.

I really don't know why you would have to, I concede that the government has fibbed on the odd occasion(before Trump), but if you think that means it has lost all trust with the public, you're pretty much the tinfoil hat brigade to begin with.

Um, theories never become laws, man. That's not how it works.

Then how does anybody win?

Over 3 Years ago
GC/MS
 

Then how does anybody win?

We go with the best theory. The idea that microorganisms cause disease is still called germ theory even though its truth is kinda beyond reasonable doubt at this point. Youíll never hear it being called germ law.

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescence
 

Then how does anybody win?


By realizing that we don't need to be locked into conflict psychology.

but if you think that means it has lost all trust with the public


It's kinda the point of what Mufasa says that the public does accept what the government tells them...that's the problem.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

This has been a fun read. Maybe I'll procrastinate here more often.

I understand that this is mainly personal, but I'm wondering if any of this is supported (or at least inspired) by LDS doctrine? I have obtained a copy of the Book of Mormon recently and have been trying to make time to read it. I have it at hand if confirmation of verses is an issue.

In the Book of Mormon, 2nd Nephi chapter 2 is the most on point to this discussion.

Is the goodness of God contingent on the existence of evil? Course not.

My gut is to disagree, actually. Why do you say this?

Over 3 Years ago
White Thunder
 

I have had similar thoughts but back in 2003 I was in my youth group ministry at church and the youth pastor said that if all you ate was chocolate ice cream all day and never ate anything else before you wouldnít know that it tastes good or anything at all tasting good or shit. Does a fish know that itís wet? No, itís just controlled my water. You would be a robot/puppet controlled by God if he didnít allow sin. Back when life first began when Adam and Eve ate the allle they didnít know that they were NAKED (swriously, yes I know that this is a vulgar reference). After they ate the Apple God exposed them to sin which they caused and then covered them up with clothes and brought them down from the garden of eden to earth so that they know what good and evil is. In order to know whatís good you need to be exposed to evil in this world so that you know what is right and wrong. You wouldnít be conscious if God controlled you by not allowing sin to exist on earth. Does this make sense GC/MS? I know that this is an excruciating painful concept to ascertain/accept and comply with, but this is needed so that you can put all of your faith in Christ who died for our sins via the crucifixon. Until then, many people still doubted that he is the messiah. He had to do this so that he could prove to us that we can endure suffering and follow Him everyday and trust that He will save you if you trust and obey Him genuinely. Believing in Christ gives you hope and courage to endure whatever happens in your life, as part of Godís plan. I am following a very hard plan that God had set on me for the past five years now and will continue to last until I die because thereís no fixture this suffering but through Hon.

Over 3 Years ago
Weid man
 

My gut is to disagree, actually. Why do you say this?

Because for our purposes God is omni-benevolent by definition. If he weren't, then we wouldn't need to make excuses as to why he would have allowed evil to arise begin with.

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescence
 

God does not allow evil to exist in our reality because there is no such being as God that exists in the first place.

Evil itself is a made-up concept devised by humanity. Much like the concept of time, it is merely a largely accepted principal. Who really knows the difference between right and wrong? Does God? Were He truly existed, perhaps. Are humans the vindicators for moral justice, then? Unlikely, as we are horribly flawed creatures.

At the end of the day, it really isn't a question of whether or not God allows evil to exist as God Himself is also an invented concept by primitive, uncivilized human beings. Rather, the question can be pinned to "Where does evil originate from?" Is it a mythological fairy tale about a snake in some tree of Eden? Is it because humans experience both joy and sorrow throughout their lives and thus have something to compare and contrast with?

I lean towards the mantra:

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

-William Shakespeare

Over 3 Years ago
Laxan
 

"God does not allow evil to exist in our reality because there is no such being as God that exists in the first place."

Human beings lack the mental processing power to understand a force like God anyway. There could very well be a higher power that's sixth dimensional or something that we just can't possibly comprehend. It's pretentious and ignorant to just claim that God doesn't exist or that God is a being. You. Have. No. idea.

None of us do.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

With that said, the odds that humanity managed to get an accurate portrayal of what God actually is, in a book the size of the bible, is almost as low as the odds that the contents of the bible are still reliable after 2000 years of being fuddled and edited to please the majority in a world where the winners of war control history.

We have America convinced that Jesus is white and Korea convinced that he's east Asian.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

God does not allow evil to exist in our reality because there is no such being as God that exists in the first place.


I would say that God does exist, but as an ideal instead of an object, much like a scientific law does not describe a particular phenomenon but a general principle. Academic distinction, given the fact that, as you noted, good and evil as most people use the terms are only tenuously related to the objective virtues and, as such, cannot be nailed down to a definite substance. As such, the question "why does God allow evil" is equivalent, in my mind, to asking "why does mathematics allow my bank account to be overdrawn" or "why does physics allow people to make ugly postmodern sculptures".

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

ideal instead of an object

That's fine, but you are certainly aware that to most people in the world you are not describing something that qualifies as "God." When the word "God" is used in the vast majority of cases it implies an entity with a consciousness and will. It comes off as an attempt to exploit the word for its emotional value rather than an earnest attempt at communication.

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescence
 

The difference in consciousness between a human being and God might be more than the difference in consciousness between a human and an ant.

"Consciousness and Will" to something that is beyond a type V civilization. Perhaps an entire universe of consciousness - is going to have differing view on what those things mean.
https://futurism.com/the-kardashev-scale-type-i-ii-iii-iv-v-civilization/

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

The difference in consciousness between a human being and God might be more than the difference in consciousness between a human and an ant.

As with "God," you can consider anything "conscious" if you want to. But the same dilemma arises. If you know that the vast most of the population will not agree with your categorization, then you've defeated the purpose of language. It doesn't matter what a Type I Civilization thinks. You're not trying to communicate with a Type I Civilization, you are trying to communicate with yours.

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescence
 

My point is that the "purpose of language" in conversations about God and religion is already defeated. For the exact reasons you just said. It's dumb to compare God to humans. God is beyond what we can comprehend.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Maybe that type 5 civilization can understand a fraction of what God is. Notice I didn't say who because we have no idea.

Humans aren't even at a level to understand what the type 5 aliens are doing. We can comprehend a type 1 civilization easily enough. It's well out of our reach but it's an eventually obtainable goal.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

It's kinda the point of what Mufasa says that the public does accept what the government tells them...that's the problem.

But if the government is actually telling the truth, and you are convinced they're lying, and you're actually biased against them, then anything the government says or any evidence the government produces is automatically rejected. Any anecdotal evidence you produce that is rejected by scientists leads to you distrusting science. This is called "the war on truth."

Human beings lack the mental processing power to understand a force like God anyway.

Please speak for yourself.

God does not allow evil to exist in our reality because there is no such being as God that exists in the first place.

You cannot prove that God does not exist, because things that do not exist cannot leave evidence of their non-existence behind for scientists to examine and publish in scholarly articles definitively saying that this something does not exist. The best answer any secular scientist would be able to say is, "I do not know for certain that God does not exist," and anybody who says "God definitely does not exist" does not have a solid foundation to build that conclusion upon and therefore should never be allowed to speak so definitively as it is not definitive. But you are more than likely saying that God does not exist because God should never allow evil to exist. That conclusion is conditional, predicated upon the assertion that it is God's job to stop evil, and automatically denying any and all alternate explanations, such as mine in the OP. That is not science.

Over 3 Years ago
GC/MS
 

The mere fact that you're using the word suggests the contrary. Even if you cannot *fully* define it, you are still matching a word to a concept. Same with consciousness. Even if a definition is as rudimentary as the source of existence. If God were inconceivable, then we wouldn't be conceiving Him.

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescence
 

"God" is really just a place holder term though. It's like the word 'magic' almost. Just a throwaway word to describe something we can't understand. There is no fracternal understanding. We know less than Jon Snow.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Science has governing laws but they only matter to us if we can observe and measure them and understand them. Some things are outside the realm of possibility for modern humans to understand. Unknown Unknowns. And that's what God is. Infinite possibility, zero control. God is everything that science can't explain.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Yes, just as my name is a placeholder for the totality of who I am. Just as any word is a placeholder for its essence. Even if I say that magic turned water into wine, I still have a partial tag identifying one aspect of what its capable of, where it acted, and when; thus discussions can be had about it. And just because that discussion is limited doesn't make it folly.

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescence
 

But we show a surprising amount of intellectual arrogance for the embarrassingly little we know about everything.

That's one of the most exhausting things about humans, actually. That confidence is more important than intelligence to our social structure. All the really smart people doubt themselves, while the confident idiots run the world. It's very rare to find someone who cares in a position of power. If you're photogenic, can give a good speech, but you're dumb as a sack of rocks you're a perfect candidate to be a world leader.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

God is everything that science can't explain.

Also perfectly valid. However, again you have to ask yourself, is your use of that word truly communicative or is provocative? Are you really communicating the basic essence of what that word means to the rest of humanity, or at the very least your immediate audience?

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescence
 

The rest of the world, or at least a good chunk of it, has a poisoned or skewed perception of what "God" means. People kill over it, and use it to excuse themselves. If people stopped making it so important when it's basically a coin flip at this point, maybe we could get on with actually making Earth actually not suck.

Organized religion is a cancer because it's just indoctrination. GC/MS will continue spouting his unfounded bias until he croaks because he's so far up the ass of the church that reason no longer matters to him.

"God" shouldn't be about the church or the bible, it should be about spirituality and true meditation. Understanding that you are a small but relevant portion of what makes up our vast universe, and connecting with it.

The church, and the bible, are just systems of control created by powerful men to profit while making other people docile and obedient.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

The way the world presently looks at God divides us. Shouldn't it be bringing us together instead?

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

The overwhelming amount of evidence of the mythology that is God (or any omnipotent deity) and all affiliated religions stemming from superstitious beliefs of ancient cultures caters to neither ignorance nor pretentiousness. Religion and any gods that have ever been believed to exist were created by persuasive, charismatic storytellers in primitive societies that sought to control and manipulate the masses because they believed those masses to be, quite bluntly, stupid and useful as tools. It all began with inventive raconteurs seeking to explain what was unexplainable to the majority who were so primeval that bad weather or catastrophic events frightened them beyond their wits; all because they could not explain these forces of nature, including death.

The awe ancient people felt as the keeper of these made-up tales gathered everyone around fires or inside caves during terrible--almost ominous--weather was astounding. The charisma of these storytellers professed that these fictitious stories were in fact NOT fiction, but truth. We now know today that that is false and it is more than obvious that those ancient tales were used to keep people of lesser creative minds under an iron fist of shame and fear. Mere manipulation. Nothing more.

Thus, omens were invented. Gods created. Afterlives promised. And the fiction was used to control early civilizations and even bled into our modern world. All gods and every religion can be traced back to those storytelling days inside caves, essentially. This includes all major beliefs we see today, such as Christianity or Judaism or Catholicism, etcetera.

When I am told I cannot know something as to whether or not a God even exists (which would imply agnosticism, to which I am not party to), it's interesting to think that anyone could make such a bold claim when their idea of God or religion itself is simply a construct of what they learned from society, not a concept they concluded under their own original thought. Because the truth is religion and God came orally from imperfect humans: Flawed creatures that claimed truth in their fictional stories.

And, clearly, it has worked.

Had no one ever invented the concept of a god or religious faith, I doubt we would be having this conversation in the first place. Similarly, had nobody come up with the idea of a unicorn or a dragon or a werewolf, you would not hear/read the typical rebuttal of "Oh, yeah? Well, how can you KNOW if unicorns or dragons don't exist, then? Eh? Eh?!" That is not my personal rebuttal because I know unicorns were made up by humans and taught to other humans to explain what this mythical creature is.

Much like the unicorn, God is a mythical creature taught to humans by other humans. That is the only reason we even comprehend the idea in the first place: It was explained to us by human society through writings and word of mouth, not truth.

All of this God nonsense came from humans. Flawed, mirthless, humans.

I am an open-minded person and my views and beliefs could change, but that is unlikely. I have seen what belief in false deities does to people, and it is disgusting. Not only to people around the world, but to my own friends and loved ones losing sight of reality all because of their faith in something that doesn't exist...all because of a strong, irrational belief in biblical texts that were written by humans. HUMANS.


Religion and God--at least the widely accepted and believed forms taught to us in most popular biblical passages--is one of the worst things to ever happen to mankind. If evil does exist, I see it within all these falsehoods that profess truth in faith where there is none.

There is no heaven or hell. No afterlife. No ghosts. No unicorns.

There is no God. Neither as an omnipotent being (intelligent or otherwise) or as a collective ideal. God does not exist in any form other than a concept.

Likewise, evil comes from what we have learned from other humans. It is merely conjecture. "Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

"...thinking makes it so."

Over 3 Years ago
Laxan
 

Well, I'm not talking about Christianity, man. That seems to be what you're talking about. No. I'm talking about "God" as it is understood near-universally. What do Christians think of when they think of it, sure. But also, what do atheists think of when they reject it? What do non-Christian theists think of it? And what are the fundamental qualities that all these perspectives have in common? Yes, sure, for some people God just chops up to the unexplained. But what makes the word "God" better than simply, the "unknown," or the "unexplained"? I think that there are some fundamental connotations missing from that particular definition which preclude it from being an appropriate tag for "God."

The way the world presently looks at God divides us. Shouldn't it be bringing us together instead?

Honestly, I think that just has more to do with the animal side of humanity passing itself off as the spiritual/intellectual side.

Over 3 Years ago
Recalescence
 

Neither as an omnipotent being (intelligent or otherwise) or as a collective ideal. God does not exist in any form other than a concept.


^

To quote myself.

My response wasn't exactly directed at you personally, Recalescence.

But I do understand what you're talking about, which is why I mentioned the collective ideal of God in that quote. And, yes, I am criticizing religions--which is where the idea of a god stems from. But why even mention God allowing evil to exist if it has NOTHING to do with...you know, religious faith or belief? It's almost as if we're asking "Where does evil come from?" rather than "Why does God allow evil to exist?"

My stance basically boils down to: There is no such thing as God. So let's ask ourselves, where does evil itself come from rather than placing blame on another made-up concept that allows it to exist.

Over 3 Years ago
Laxan
 

Yes, I've also heard the notion that God is about the unknown or collective spiritual meditation or God being inside all of us and religion has skewed what God is and so on and so forth. It's all the same dribble to me. What a waste it is to hanker onto a faith in something greater than the here and now.

People who believe there are spiritual answers to something beyond life and death or beyond our own comprehension are always held back in our world. One can never, EVER truly live life to the fullest when they look forward to something "better" after death (such as paradise or reincarnation) or they cling onto some superstitious idea that God makes the unknown have purpose and meaning amongst ourselves.

When you get down to it, fellas, you cannot prove anything 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt. There must always be doubt. I cannot prove that I exist. None of us can prove that we even exist. Not truly.

All of this, our senses and thoughts, is merely perception of one's own reality.

And that is all we have: A personal perception on reality. Neither good or evil. Instead of wasting time trying to figure out the answers to some higher purpose, I have lived my adult life making the most of what is in my own reality...my own life...the life that I perceive as real.

Perception of reality is all there is. That is all we have. Let's make the best of it and stop worrying about who is right and wrong in terms of personal belief. We're all part of the same species. We're all different, but we're also very similar in our desires and ambitions. If we can agree on a common belief of what evil truly means in our realities, we should stand against it as one. One life. One world. One reality.

Let's make the best of what we have and stop seeing ourselves as divided from one another and everything else, differences though we may have. Goodnight, guys. I always enjoy the talks and perspectives.

Over 3 Years ago
Laxan
 

When I am told I cannot know something as to whether or not a God even exists (which would imply agnosticism, to which I am not party to), it's interesting to think that anyone could make such a bold claim when their idea of God or religion itself is simply a construct of what they learned from society, not a concept they concluded under their own original thought.

Bold yes. But reasonable. You can't know a negative. Which is why I (perhaps wrongly) use atheism and agnosticism interchangeably.

"Oh, yeah? Well, how can you KNOW if unicorns or dragons don't exist, then? Eh? Eh?!"

Again you don't. Cause you can't know a negative. All you can say is you've seen no evidence for them.

Over 3 Years ago
Louis De Pointe du Lac
 

Bold yes. But reasonable. You can't know a negative. Which is why I (perhaps wrongly) use atheism and agnosticism interchangeably.

Again you don't. Cause you can't know a negative. All you can say is you've seen no evidence for them.

Agreed. Even if I do mess up and say "ghosts don't exist" sometimes.

Over 3 Years ago
Fox Forever
 

Recal - What did you mean by this?

"Honestly, I think that just has more to do with the animal side of humanity passing itself off as the spiritual/intellectual side."

Do you believe spirituality is fake?

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Just a throwaway word to describe something we can't understand.

Again, please speak for yourself. Just because YOU can't understand God doesn't mean you get to assert that NOBODY can, based upon nothing other than your own small experience. Don't act like somebody died and put you in charge of logic.

Organized religion is a cancer because it's just indoctrination. GC/MS will continue spouting his unfounded bias until he croaks because he's so far up the ass of the church that reason no longer matters to him.

Just because you think my church is indoctrination, doesn't mean your assertion is proof that it is. I agree that some churches are like that, but that's no reason to assert that all of them are like that. You don't get to review a church you have never studied. That's not how this works. That IS how bias works, though.

There is no heaven or hell. No afterlife.

How do you know? Certainty cannot come from opinion. You cannot speak with certainty unless you have evidence. If you do not have evidence, your certainty has no foundation.

God is everything that science can't explain.

Ehhhhhh... it's more like God avoids science in order to keep your free will intact.

It's almost as if we're asking "Where does evil come from?" rather than "Why does God allow evil to exist?"

It's more like, are we better off not knowing that evil exists? Evil exists whether we know about it or not. Is it God's job to keep us in the dark?

The mere fact that you're using the word suggests the contrary.

Which word?

If he weren't, then we wouldn't need to make excuses as to why he would have allowed evil to arise begin with.

I think you're making an excuse that it's God's job to prevent evil and automatically denying any alternate explanation because you think you're right.

All of this, our senses and thoughts, is merely perception of one's own reality.

God presented Himself to me through one of my senses(not sight), and you all say that I'm wrong, though you have never experienced the same thing. So upon what foundation do you get to say that I am wrong?

Perception of reality is all there is. That is all we have. Let's make the best of it and stop worrying about who is right and wrong in terms of personal belief.

No, you're making it sound like everything is subjective. There is such a thing as universal truth, so no, not everything is subjective.

My stance basically boils down to: There is no such thing as God.

Based on what? You had better give me something other than "my certainty is based entirely upon my opinion."

People who believe there are spiritual answers to something beyond life and death or beyond our own comprehension are always held back in our world.

Yes, held back by atheists and unreligious who incorrectly assert they're right by virtue of being louder.

Over 3 Years ago
GC/MS
 

Again, please speak for yourself. Just because YOU can't understand God doesn't mean you get to assert that NOBODY can, based upon nothing other than your own small experience. Don't act like somebody died and put you in charge of logic.


I gotta agree with GC here. Without getting into another conversation about your learned helplessness, it is sufficient to say that you do not get to tell anyone what God is or isn't in the same breath that you say that it can't be understood. You're just applying your own dogma, but with a negative claim instead of a positive one.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

I am not applying anything. He can go believe whatever crazy nonsense he wants. Not that his religion is his own idea to begin with.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

GC/MS, all religion is indoctrination.

Here is the definition of indoctrination:

The process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

GC I would like it if you could clear up what you mean by this:

Ehhhhhh... it's more like God avoids science in order to keep your free will intact.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Organized religion is a cancer because it's just indoctrination.


It's not just indoctrination. Indoctrination is a part of it, but indoctrination is not inherently bad, just like not all growth is cancer. You have a significant negative bias that's very obvious here.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

Because cults are terrifying and religious people are part of cults.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Because cults are terrifying and religious people are part of cults.


Why is it so terrifying to have a group of people gathered, directed, determined? A cult does not necessarily follow the implication of dehumanization, brainwashing and victimization that the term has been burdened with in recent history. It can just as easily mean a wholesome and reciprocal family of belief.

Keep in mind that it's mainly the big mainstream organizations that are twisting this term in order to defame and insult smaller, more independent beliefs.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

Organized religion isn't independant belief. It's hive mind, group think, brainwashing. Same with school really.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

A group of people believing the same thing isn't bad. Just because the idea of community pokes at your insecurity doesn't make it wrong.

Not to mention that you tacitly accept many of the beliefs that most people do already. You're just cherrypicking the religious aspect for whatever reason.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

Because Religion only exists to control people and profit off them. It's not the same as Spirituality. Any idiot can make up their own religion or join an existing one. But if GC/MS had grown up in a world where no one told him about religion he wouldn't be religious. He would never have come up with it on his own.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Because Religion only exists to control people and profit off them.


Religion exists to bind together a tribe in spiritual belief. It's a way of promoting social compatibility and providing ideological inoculation against foreign influence. The way that religion works can and has been exploited in order to control and victimize others.

Any idiot can make up their own religion or join an existing one.


Can they? I'm not convinced. Anyone can say that they're religious, but that doesn't mean that they are.

But if GC/MS had grown up in a world where no one told him about religion he wouldn't be religious. He would never have come up with it on his own.


There's a pretty good neuropsychological precedent saying that he probably still would be. If you're referencing his specific denomination: no shit. You're straying into tautological territory if that's what you're saying.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

But if GC/MS had grown up in a world where no one told him about religion he wouldn't be religious.

And if I was born from a rooster guess what? I'd be a rooster! Also fun things are entertaining and a bachelor is an unmarried man!

Ok I think maybe you only had a half-thought there. I'm pretty sure the rest of that song and dance goes something like:

With so many different faiths and cultures, why would the loving God of all humanity make access to the only path to heaven so local?

Hey I'm comment 100! Why the hell is GC getting so much attention? Is it cause he's low hanging fruit?

Over 3 Years ago
Louis De Pointe du Lac
 

Why the hell is GC getting so much attention?


This thread is mostly Mufasa.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

The process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

Then you don't know me or my religion. You just think you do because you're the kind of person who accuses the whole for the actions of a few. I question my religion all the time. The only stance the Church took that did not make sense to me was the one on homosexuality.

Let me give you the definition of confirmation bias: the line of thinking where a person will only accept what appeals to their opinion, even if it is not the truth.

That is all I have received from you regarding my religion. All of you will only listen to one side of the story, which is not my religion's side. HOW IS THAT NOT INDOCTRINATION? Please tell me.

He can go believe whatever crazy nonsense he wants.

Argumentum ad ridiculum fallacy. Just because YOU think it's ridiculous, does not mean it actually IS ridiculous.

Organized religion isn't independant belief. It's hive mind, group think, brainwashing.

Blanket statements are too easy to make. They tie in to the thought-terminating cliche fallacy. Just because you have discovered a few are like that does not mean you get to tell everybody all of them are. You haven't studied all of them.

But if GC/MS had grown up in a world where no one told him about religion he wouldn't be religious.

Amazing how all of you think you know me because you desperately want me to live up to a stereotype.

GC I would like it if you could clear up what you mean by this:
Ehhhhhh... it's more like God avoids science in order to keep your free will intact.

Again, I'm willing to bet you've already dismissed what I'm going to say before I've even said it, but here it is:

God wants us to have free will. Free will is very important to Him, because it IS very important. But if God were to come down and do all the things you want God to do: heal the sick, stop evil, make mountains move, part the seas, generally make all sorts of miracles, then you literally have NO CHOICE but to do all the things that God wants you to do. God will explain everything, all of God's rules will make sense to you, everything will be hunky dory. *But that removes all freedom of choice.* You can say you still have choice(and you probably will, because you're a "rebel," because somehow society advertises that bragging about that is a good thing), but you truly underestimate how you would react to miracles every day in front of your very eyes, the very meaning of life explained by The Almighty in no uncertain terms.

Over 3 Years ago
GC/MS
 

You're right, I don't trust your religion on the mere basis that it is a religion. You could be muslim or jewish and I would still have the same distrust. Don't take it personally.

I am not even an Atheist.

You do confirmation bias too you know. You haven't ever asked me why I don't trust religions.

So I'll start. Why do you trust religion?

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

GC I don't know anything (or care, frankly) about your religion in particular, so any grievance I have with it is on the basis that it is indeed a religion. I have nothing against you or the members of it, just the collective as a whole and other religions. On the basis that I don't trust cult lines of thinking. They taint the view a person could have if they just prayed individually.

For your own curiosity:

I believe as person's relationship with their spiritual side/God, or whatever you want to call it is that person's own individual right. You don't need a religious text or a church to have a relationship with God. That's why illiterate ignorant people can still be spiritual.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Null

Religion exists to bind together a tribe in spiritual belief. It's a way of promoting social compatibility and providing ideological inoculation against foreign influence.

What's wrong with experiencing spirituality in an individual way?

Having a religion is like asking everyone in your village to fit into the same pair of pants. Religion doesn't suit everyone. And the church and text part are Man-based, not God-based.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

I never said that there was anything wrong with individual religion.

man-based


Please, do not presume to lecture me on this aspect. I have studied Greek and Latin, I have researched discrepancies between versions of the Bible that most people don't even know the existence of, I have read Newton's letters on Arius and Athanasius and the Councils of Nicaea and Tyre.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

Individual "religion" isn't religion. It's spirituality.

Spirituality gives the individual autonomy over his or her interpretation of the soul or spirit, whereas religion implies participation in a communal practice and interpretation of divine belief and worship.

Also I am not lecturing anyone. We are having a discussion. Just because I tell you something you might already know doesn't change that.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Individual "religion" isn't religion. It's spirituality.


I understand what you are saying and will keep that in mind. Keep in mind that I will continue to use the phrase "individual religion" when I feel that it is appropriate.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

GC I don't know anything (or care, frankly) about your religion in particular, so any grievance I have with it is on the basis that it is indeed a religion.

*sigh* You're so predictable, I could set my watch by you. Why, it's almost like you've been INDOCTRINATED to reject everything a Mormon says before we've even said it. So what now? What did the Mormon Church do to you to earn such blind hatred? Did the Church run over your dog? Did the Church kill your sister? Did the Church sleep with your girlfriend? I fail to see how we have earned such instant, automatic, mouth-frothing denial every time we speak. It's really getting tiresome.

Why do you trust religion?

BECAUSE IT HAS EARNED IT. I don't automatically reject something based entirely on a blanket statement, unlike you. I have been trained to listen to BOTH sides of the story, unlike you. I don't simply go where the wind is blowing, unlike you.

is that person's own individual right.

But for some nebulous reason you can't name, you refuse to be tolerant of the right of religious people. Without educating yourself on why we do what we do, you constantly berate us for something you deliberately keep yourself in the dark about. You constantly judge a book by its cover, all because of a completely IRRATIONAL fear of insanity. Mitt Romney was the frontrunner to become President of the United States. Orrin Hatch earned the fourth spot in the chain of command for the Presidency. If you're going to call those two insane, the federal government would like to invite you to take a step outside.

Religion doesn't suit everyone.

I never said it did. But to constantly attack us about our freedom of choice? That's not the result of a mere difference of opinion.

And the church and text part are Man-based, not God-based.

That's your opinion, which is based upon the foundationless assumption that there is no God.

On the basis that I don't trust cult lines of thinking. They taint the view a person could have if they just prayed individually.

Another blanket statement. You really need to stop acting like you've been indoctrinated to hate all religions based on everything except individual merit. Bigotry is not a good thing, so stop acting like you have no choice.

Over 3 Years ago
GC/MS
 

That's your opinion, which is based upon the foundationless assumption that there is no God.

You're dumb. I told you up above that I'm not an Atheist.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

Keep it civil.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

He keeps typing out exhausting paragraphs of ignorance while not even reading what I've typed so I'm done with him. I made how I feel about religion in general pretty clear. But I didn't say I was an atheist.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

I understand very well. Just keep in mind that if you stay calm, you look better and whoever you're talking to has less excuse to treat you the same way.

Over 3 Years ago
nullfather
 

Who really knows the difference between right and wrong?

am not sure you should be saying this infront of people, they might think you crazy if you cannot tell the difference

Over 3 Years ago
Brandy
 

And as is always the way when trying to reason with somebody whose mind is hermetically sealed and welded shut, they always revert to what they mistakenly think is the awesome argument-ending power of "nuh-uh." You keep saying I'm not listening to you, but all you do is keep lobbing foundationless accusations based entirely on what other religions have done, and what I know, as a member of the accused church to be false, so really, what is there for me to listen to?

So, let me tell you what has been told by people in my position to people in your position for decades: if you truly want the LDS Church to go away, it ultimately comes down to what you can prove. If you have proof we brainwash people, then do your civic duty and take this evidence to the FBI. If your evidence is actionable, the Church will be dissolved within six months. It's really the only way we're going to get out of your hair. As an investigator for the state crime lab, I know that it's really easy to find evidence of brainwashing. I know I have found that in other religions. You're not going to make us go away by not listening to us and making blanket statements and accusations that don't apply to us, so you now know what it is you have to do. Good luck. And let's make a little wager, shall we? If the Church is still here in six months, I think it will be firmly established once and for all that your bluff has been called. Deal?

Over 3 Years ago
GC/MS
 

You're more over the top than ?huh?, I just can't take anything you say seriously. Typing big paragraphs that go unreplied doesn't mean you win an argument. I'm ignoring you because you ignored me first. You may have replied, but you ignored what I actually wrote which is the same thing.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

If you have proof we brainwash people, then do your civic duty and take this evidence to the FBI

Gotta admit Ee Keekagep Mufiga, he's got a point. Yes it would be a stretch to call some of the things religious organizations get away with here in the states NOT brainwashing, but there is a difference between strong persuasion and that which 'so far operates on the mind of the testator, that he would be deprived of a perfectly free will. - legal definition

Over 3 Years ago
Louis De Pointe du Lac
 

I live in Canada, why would I take it to the FBI?

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

RCMP then.

Over 3 Years ago
Louis De Pointe du Lac
 

I just can't take anything you say seriously.

No, you've just made up your mind to deny everything I've said before I even said it. Confirmation bias.

I'm ignoring you because you ignored me first.

I listened to everything you said, it was just a bunch of accusations that weren't even based on personal experience. The rest of it was just reiteration of the same old phrases we Mormons have heard before from other biased people in your position who also have an irrational fear of insanity. This world runs on EVIDENCE, and if you and everybody before you had any, we'd be long gone by now.

I live in Canada, why would I take it to the FBI?

If you have evidence that would permanently get rid of a religion you hate, which you think is a plague on humanity, why would you let a border stop you? I think you're making excuses.

Over 3 Years ago
GC/MS
 

But if GC/MS had grown up in a world where no one told him about religion he wouldn't be religious.

Again, you mistakenly think you know me. I'm actually a convert to the LDS faith. I joined consensually in my mid-20s.

Mufasa, I know you will refuse to put yourself in my shoes because you have a wholly irrational fear of insanity, but please just *parallel* yourself as I say this:

How would you react if somebody kept attacking a charitable organization you belong to with accusations you know to be untrue? How would you react if somebody who deliberately kept themselves ignorant of the good your organization does, and keeps lobbing accusations of evildoing you know to be untrue and presents no tangible evidence? How would you react if somebody angrily insists that you and you charitable organization live up to their expectations of a negative stereotype when you clearly don't? How would YOU react?

Over 3 Years ago
GC/MS
 

How would you react if somebody kept attacking a charitable organization you belong to with accusations you know to be untrue? How would you react if somebody who deliberately kept themselves ignorant of the good your organization does, and keeps lobbing accusations of evildoing you know to be untrue and presents no tangible evidence? How would you react if somebody angrily insists that you and you charitable organization live up to their expectations of a negative stereotype when you clearly don't? How would YOU react?

It sounds like somebody who is into authoritarian style institution worship. Its a non-issue for some of us.

Over 3 Years ago
Psygnosis
 

Agreed Psy, and he's so far into the indoctrination process that he doesn't see it.

Over 3 Years ago
I killed Mufasa
 

You know what, you guys? You don't get to insist we're indoctrinated just because you want us to be.

We are not indoctrinated, and you can deny it until you're blue in the face, it changes nothing.

Your opinions would change if you didn't deliberately keep yourselves in the dark about us.

But NO! your pre-conceived expectations MUST be lived up to! The world cannot be messy, and you must fight to keep your precious stereotypes from being altered by the truth! Your fixed worldview depends upon it!

(le sigh...)

Over 3 Years ago
GC/MS
 

gc, you should know that arguing with bigots is like reasoning with a brick wall

Over 3 Years ago
sarsparilla
 

You don't get to insist we're indoctrinated
just because you want us to be.
We are not indoctrinated,
keep yourselves in the dark about us.

We're, us, we, us...... Borg collective much? lol.

Over 3 Years ago
Psygnosis
 

Reply to: my treatise on why god lets evil exist

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