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Worldbuilding

Kinship and Marriage Systems of the Hominoid Species of Ataivsh

Posted 1 Month ago by chiarizio

I want to be able to find this information more easily than combing through the various threads that have so many other topics as well.
....
In Ataivsh three of the four sophont species are hominoid.
To wit and namely:
Humans (aka “Men”), who are “native” to grasslands and plains and arid places;
Dwarves, who are “native” to places with lots of caves and mountains and intramontane valleys;
Elves, who are “native” to thickly-wooded places, with lots of trees, especially including some trees taller than people.

(The fourth race are MerCentaurs, “native” to freshwater lakes and navigable streams; but they are definitely NOT hominoid!)

....

All three of the hominoid species have kinship systems based on five patriclans and five matriclans and four sibling-and-spouse generation-circles.
The Humans’ system and the Dwarves’ system are mathematically isomorphic to each other. The Elves’ system is different but similar.
But each species’s system is independent from and disjoint from each other species’s system.
....
Certain statements are true in all three hominoid systems.
In each system are forty marriageability sections or “skins”; twenty of males and twenty of females.
Each person has forty classes of kin in their species.
Two classes of kin are siblings; sisters and brothers.
If ALTER belongs to EGO’s matriclan and patriclan, then EGO and ALTER are each other’s siblings.
If ALTER belongs to EGO’s matriclan and generation, then EGO and ALTER are each other’s siblings.
If ALTER belongs to EGO’s patriclan and generation, then EGO and ALTER are each other’s siblings.

Every matriclan intersects every generation in exactly two “skins”, one of males and one of females.
Every patriclan intersects every generation in exactly two “skins”, one of males and one of females.
Every patriclan intersects all but one matriclan, and every matriclan intersects all but one patriclan.
If a patriclan and a matriclan have any common members at all, they intersect in exactly two “skins”, one of males and one of females.

Everyone belongs to one and only one matriclan, namely the one their mother belongs to. They’re born into that matriclan and stay in it their whole life.
Everyone belongs to one and only one patriclan, namely the one their father belongs to. They’re born into that patriclan and stay in it their whole life.

The women in each matriclan take turns or rotate, by generation, choosing their husbands from each of the other four matriclans.
A woman can’t marry a husband from her own matriclan, of course.
Nor can she choose one from her mother’s husband’s (MH’s) matriclan, that is, from her father’s matriclan.
Nor can she choose one from her MMH’s (MF’s) matriclan; nor her MMMH’s (MMF’s) matriclan.
Instead she must choose one from her MMMMH’s (MMMF’s) matriclan.

Likewise a man must marry a woman from his FFFM’s patriclan.

A man is in the same “skin” as his FFFF (father’s father’s father’s father) and as his SSSS (son’s son’s son’s son).
So for a man, FFFF is “brother” and SSSS is “brother”.
And for a man, FFF is “son” and SSS is “father” and FF=SS.

A woman is in the same skin as her MMMM and as her DDDD. So, for her, MMMM and DDDD are “sister”.
And for her, MMM is “daughter” and DDD is “mother” and MM=DD.

Every man has two direct and one collateral ancestor who were in his same marriageability section or “skin”; his FFFF and his MFMF and his MMMMB.
Every woman has two direct and one collateral ancestress who belonged to her “skin”; her MMMM, her FMFM, and her FFFFZ (FFFF’s sister).
So if a man H can marry a woman W, then each one of HFFFF or HMFMF or HMMMMB, could have married any one of WMMMM or WFMFM or WFFFFZ, and vice-versa.

That gives us eight prescribed fourth-cousin relationships between H and W.
(The marriage of HMMMMB to WFFFFZ would not be a “blood” relationship. Younger and/or less thoughtful members of this species, or non-members — especially MerCentaurs —, might not be aware of it.).

It’s also possible to deduce some third-cousin and second-cousin prescribed relationships between husbands and wives.

Since FFFF and MFMF must be classificatory brothers and might even be the same guy, FFF and MFM might be siblings and must be Classificatory siblings. So F and M must be Classificatory second-cousins; FF and MF must be Classificatory cross-first-cousins.
Since MMMM and FMFM must be Classificatory sisters and might even be the same woman, MMM and FMF must be Classificatory sister and brother, so MM and FM must be Classificatory cross-first-cousins, and M and F must be Classificatory second-cousins.

Also MMMMB must be the Classificatory brother of both FFFF and MFMF so MMM must be the Classificatory cross-first-cousin of both FFF and MFM so MM must be the Classificatory second-cousin of FF and MF so F and M are double-third-cousins, I think.
Likewise FFFFZ and MMMM and FMFM are all “sisters” so FFFF is the “brother” of both MMMM and FMFM so FFF is the cross-cousin of both MMM and FMF so FF is the second-cousin of both MM and FM so again F and M are double-third-cousins.

The above paragraph handled the fact that FFFF and MMMM are Classificatory siblings twice.

....

The mathematical difference between Humans’ and Dwarves’ s systems on the one hand, and Elves’ system on the other hand, is that Human men and Dwarven men marry women classified as their MBWBD (mother’s brother’s wife’s brother’s daughter), while Elven men marry women classified as their FZHZD (father’s sister’s husband’s sister’s daughter).

Not every kinship term in the Elven system can be directly translated into the Human/Dwarven system nor vice-versa, though clearly many can. But every term in the Human system has a direct translation into the Dwarven system and vice-versa.

There are 9 Replies


So if I’m a dwarf boy and you’re a dwarf girl and my mother’s brother married your father’s sister then you and I can get married!
But if I’m an elf boy and you’re an elf girl and my father’s sister married your mother’s brother than you and I can get married.

But, if I’m a human or dwarf boy, and you’re a human or dwarf girl, and my father’s sister married your mother’s brother, then we can’t marry.
Or if I’m an elf boy and you’re an elf girl, and my mother’s brother married your father’s sister, then you and I can’t marry.

1 Month ago
chiarizio
 

It may not be obvious: but neither Human nor Dwarven nor Elven kinterms translate simply into MerCentaur kinterms;
And MerCentaur kinterms don’t translate simply into Human nor Dwarven nor Elvish kinterms.

There’s less trouble translating Human or Dwarvish kinterms into Elvish, or Elvish kinterms into Human or Dwarvish kinterms; but still for some relationships it can’t be exact.

Human and Dwarvish kinterms, OTOH, are almost completely and exactly intertranslatable.
The biggest difference is that Humans (like Elves) name their generations, while Dwarves do not name theirs.
Added in edit. There’s another important difference. Human men are patrilocal and Human women are virilocal. I don’t think either is true of Dwarves.

Humans and Dwarves and Elves don’t have any sixth-degree or higher-degree kinterms.

.....

Let’s take Human kin-classes from a male EGO to a male ALTER.
There are twenty of them.
this post is still a work in progress.

this post is still a work in progress.
....

1 Month ago
chiarizio
 

It’s not eight prescribed fourth-cousin relationships.
It’s four prescribed 4th-cousin relationships plus two prescribed 3rd-cousin relationships plus two prescribed 2nd-cousin relationships.

If HMMMMB married WFFFFZ that doesn’t create a prescribed nth-cousin relationship.
No collateral ancestor of either has to be a direct ancestor of the other, or vice-versa, for that to be true.

But if HMMMMB married either WMMMM or WFMFM, H’s collateral ancestor HMMMMB is a direct ancestor of W; either WMMMF or WFMFF. So either W is either H’s MMMMBDDDD or W is H’s MMMMBSDSD. Both are prescribed 4th-cousin kinships.

And if either HFFFF or HMFMF married WFFFFZ then one of H’s direct ancestresses — either H’s FFFM or his MFMM — is a collateral ancestress of W, namely her FFFFZ. That is, either W is H’s FFFMBSSSD or W is H’s MFMMBSSSD. Both are prescribed 4th-cousin kinships.

If either HFFFF or HMFMF marries either WMMMM or WFMFM, that creates prescribed 3rd-cousin relationships.
If H’s FFFF married W’s MMMM then H’s FFF and W’s MMM were brother and sister.
That is, W is H’s FFFZDDD.
If H’s MFMF married W’s FMFM, then H’s MFM and W’s FMF were sister and brother.
That is, W is H’s MFMBDSD.

If H’s FFFF married W’s FMFM, then H’s FFF and W’s FMF were brothers. That makes H’s FF and W’s FM parallel-cousins, which count as siblings.
So W counts as H’s FFZSD, a prescribed 2nd-cousin kinship.
If H’s MFMF married W’s MMMM, that means H’s MFM and W’s MMM are sisters, so H’s MF and W’s MM are parallel-cousins, counting as brother and sister.
So W counts as H’s MFZDD, another 2nd-cousin kinship prescription.

So W and H are prescribed 2nd-cousins in two ways;
W is H’s FFZSD and W is H’s MFZDD.
And W and H are prescribed 3rd-cousins in two ways;
W is H’s FFFZDDD and W is H’s MFMBDSD.
And W and H are prescribed 4th-cousins in four ways;
W is H’s MMMMBDDDD
And H’s MMMMBSDSD
And H’s FFFMBSSSD
And H’s MFMMBSSSD.

....

Those apply to Human and Dwarven and Elven systems.

....

In the Human and Dwarven systems we have W=MBWBD and H=FZHZS.
In the Elven system we have W=FZHZD and H=MBWBS.

One way of looking at that is that an Elven man looks to his FZ the way a Human or Dwarven man would look to his MB; and an Elven woman looks to her MB the way a Human or Dwarven woman would look to her FZ.

1 Month ago
chiarizio
 

For Human men and Dwarf men (in other words a male EGO or propositus or proband or speaker),
the kinterms for a male ALTER include:
1. Brother;

The other men in EGO’s patriclan, that is,
2. Father
3. Son
4. FF=SS we’d say grandfather and grandson

The other men in EGO’s matriclan, that is,
5. MB uncle
6. ZS nephew
7. MMB=ZDS we’d say granduncle and grandnephew

The other men in EGO’s generation, that is
8. WB brother-in-law
9. ZH different kind of bil
10. WBWB bil’s bil
11. ZHZH bil’s bil

A line of fathers-in-law and sons-in-law, the husbands of a matriclan of women, namely
12. WF fil
13. DH sil
14. WMF=DDH is both the square of #12 and the square of #13.

They don’t have “ropes”, but if they were to, these would be the other men in their “rope”;
15. MF=DS grandfather and grandson

A new and less obvious cycle they probably have no significance for, namely
16. MMF=MBDS a great grandfather but also a first-cousin-once-removed descending
17. DDS=MFZS, a great grandson but also a first cousin once removed ascending, the cube and also the inverse of #16
18. MBWF=DHZS, the square of #16 and of #17, an uncle’s father-in-law but also a son-in-law’s nephew. This is also the term for ZSS grandnephews and FMB granduncles.

A final new cycle they probably have no significance for, namely
19. FZH we’d say “uncle by marriage”
20. WBS, the cube of #19 and also the inverse of #19; we’d say “nephew by marriage”
15. MF=DS happens to be the square of #19 and the square of #20.

And that’s all twenty.

.....

There are also twenty kinterms for male Egos and female Alters; and twenty female-to-female and twenty female-to-male kinterms.

....

The kinterm systems for Elves look reminiscent but have different equivalences.

...

Notice how often terms that are different in their system have the same translation into English unless you either get unusually precise or just recite a phrase tracing out the connection.
OTOH notice how often connections that would lead to very different terms in English lead to the same term in Arpien.

1 Month ago
chiarizio
 

When I started Ataivsh I said each of the four species was going to have their own global auxlang.
I did not commit to any actual plan or schedule for constructing those for any species but the Humans. (Arpien).

I also said each continent and each ocean was going to have their own language for each of the four loquent species.
I forgot all about those. I still don’t plan to ever work on them. Though plans sometimes change.

I also mentioned the possibility of major dialects of big areas within continents and oceans.
I forgot about those too, and probably will again.

......

I predict I will need to sketch parts of the global auxlangs of the non-Human species.
I think I’ll at least need the “proper names” parts of all of them.
I might also need the kinterm parts of all of them; especially the MerCentaurs.

....

None of them are actually ocean-going without technology.
So I decided that nautical language, or at least marine nautical language, would be coined simultaneously into all four global auxlangs, (and probably the ocean-wide and continent-wide languages as well).
These words should mostly “sound as if” they’re borrowed from MerCentaurish into Arpien. Or sometimes some should sound as if they’re borrowed from some other “racial” tongue or into some other “racial” tongue or both. But in “reality” most should be coined in all languages simultaneously and no one language should obviously have had it first.

1 Month ago
chiarizio
 

For Elven men (in other words a male EGO or propositus or proband or speaker),
the first fifteen of those kinterm classes for a male ALTER are the same as those for Humans and Dwarves:
1. Brother;

The other men in EGO’s patriclan, that is,
2. Father
3. Son
4. FF=SS we’d say grandfather and grandson

The other men in EGO’s matriclan, that is,
5. MB uncle
6. ZS nephew
7. MMB=ZDS we’d say granduncle and grandnephew

The other men in EGO’s generation, that is
8. WB brother-in-law
9. ZH different kind of bil
10. WBWB bil’s bil
11. ZHZH bil’s bil

A line of fathers-in-law and sons-in-law, the husbands of a matriclan of women, namely
12. WF fil
13. DH sil
14. WMF=DDH is both the square of #12 and the square of #13.

They don’t have “ropes”, but if they were to, these would be the other men in their “rope”;
15. MF=DS grandfather and grandson

.......... .......... .......... .......... ..........

I’ll work out the other 5 later.

.......... .......... .......... .......... ..........

For an Elvish man, the matriclan that doesn’t intersect his own patriclan, is the one that contains his WBW and his WBWB.
But the patriclan that doesn’t intersect his own matriclan, is the one that contains his ZHZH and his ZHZHZ.

I’ll work out later which matriclan doesn’t intersect a Dwarf man’s or Human man’s patriclan; and which patriclan doesn’t intersect a Dwarf or Human man’s matriclan.

I’ll also work out which patriclan doesn’t intersect a woman’s matriclan, and which matriclan doesn’t intersect a woman’s patriclan.

..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ...... ..... ..... ..... .....

I think I have an idea about how to make sure the audience for a piece of fiction knows a character is fictional; put them in a patriclan and matriclan that never intersect in real life!
If it’s a “lively art” like a movie or legitimate theater, cast a hominoid of one of the other hominoid species in that role, too!

3 Weeks ago
chiarizio
 

For a Dwarf man or a Human man, the patriclan which does not intersect his own matriclan is the one that contains his WB and his W, while the matriclan that does not intersect his own patriclan is the one that contains his ZH and his ZHZ.

By contrast, as we have seen, for an Elf man the patriclan which does not intersect his own matriclan is the one that contains his ZHZH and his ZHZHZ, while the matriclan that does not intersect his own patriclan is that of his WBWB and his WBW.

..... ..... ..... ..... .....

2 Weeks ago
chiarizio
 

It might be worthwhile to explicitly point out a difference between,
On the one hand, “marriageability sections”,
And on the other hand, “kinship classes”.

Marriageability sections are absolute. A marriageability section has the same people in it no matter who is talking about it. It’s meaning does not change depending on the point-of-view of the speaker.
(Just as Tuesday the 16th of February 2021 is Tues Feb 16 2021 today, and will still be 2021/Feb/16 tomorrow, and was already 2021/Feb/16 yesterday. Tuesday February 16 2021 is the same day no matter when we talk about it.)

Kinterm classes are deictic. The membership of a kinterm class depends on the identity of EGO.
(Just as “today” means Tues Feb 16 2021 as I’m posting this; but on Mon Feb 15 2021 “today” used to mean 2021/Feb/15, and on Wed Feb 17 2021 “today” will mean 2021/Feb/17. The precise date meant by “today” changes depending on when we’re talking about it.)

....

That might have been obvious; but in case not, I think I should mention it!

2 Weeks ago
chiarizio
 

For Elf men, the “new and less obvious cycle they probably have no significance for” that is generated by their
16. MMF greatgrandfather, same kinterm as their MBDS first-cousin-once-removed-descending, and by
17. DDS greatgrandson, same kinterm as their MFZS first-cousin-once-removed-ascending,
is completed with the square of #16, also the square of #17,
18. ZSS also FMB, nephew’s son or father’s uncle, grandnephew or granduncle. Like the same cycle for Humans and Dwarves. It’s also the kinterm for MBWF or DHZS, an uncle’s father-in-law or a son-in-law’s nephew.

Apparently (ie as far as I can tell), the “final new cycle they probably have no significance for” is also the same for Elves as for Dwarves and Humans.
19. FZH a kind of uncle-by-marriage
20. WBS a kind of nephew-by-marriage
15. MF=DS again, the square of #19 and of #20.

This might have significance after all —— for Elves! An Elf man’s FZH is the guy who might find him his wife, for instance possibly FZH’s ZD. And an Elf man’s WBS is the kid he might match with his ZD to marry.

(I still don’t foressee any particular significance for the FZH and WBS relationships for Dwarves and Humans.)

.....

The main differences (I’ve discovered so far) are:
  • for Elves, W=FZHZD and H=MBWBS, while for Dwarves and Humans W=MBWBD and H=FZHZS.
  • for Elves, the patriclan that doesn’t intersect one’s own matriclan and the matriclan that doesn’t intersect one’s own patriclan, intersect one’s generation as far away as possible, in one’s ZHZH and WBWB; while for Dwarves and Humans, they intersect one’s generation as close as possible, in one’s WB and ZH.

  • 2 Weeks ago
    chiarizio
     

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