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Early Impressions of Breath of the Wild

Posted 4 Months ago by Jet Presto

So I've logged 10 hours in Breath of the Wild, the game that sparked my almost year-long sojourn into the Zelda franchise. Prior to 2020, I had only ever beaten Ocarina of Time, gave up near the end of Wind Waker, and dabbled in A Link to the Past. But now, I'm on my 12th Zelda game in under a year (I think I started this back in June? It was the summer, I think.) At this point, I have beaten Legend of Zelda, Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess. I gave up on Adventure of Link, Oracle of Ages, Oracle of Seasons, and Skyward Sword. (I probably will return to the Oracle games at some point. I got stuck on a boss in Seasons for a while and then just kinda got tired of playing the tiny handheld system.)

Thus, my relationship with Zelda as a franchise is not one even remotely of nostalgia (even Ocarina, I played for the first time in 2007, almost a decade after its initial release and at the ripe age of 20 years old). If there were one Zelda game in this retrospective that I've felt really grabbed me early on and I enjoyed almost completely from start to finish, it was the Switch remake of Link's Awakening. I like Link to the Past. I like Ocarina of Time. I like Twilight Princess (after the first 5-6 hours). And I thiiiink I like Majora's Mask? (It's definitely the most interesting game in the series to me, at any rate.) But overall, there hasn't really been one of these things that I pick up and just pretty quickly come to adore completely. At times, it almost feels like homework. (I imagine this is the case for new players visiting old Final Fantasy games, which is very much a franchise I have a lot of nostalgia for.)

But overall, I appreciate the heck out of this series. It's not my favorite, and I haven't really looooooved any of the games, but I really appreciate that they play around with every new game. Can't think of too many franchises that deviate from game to game like this one. Never mind a game franchise that's been around for 35 years.

So coming into Breath of the Wild, I'd heard that it's not only the best Zelda in the franchise, but it's one of the best games in modern history! Bold claims and my general takeaway is.....

I can see that.

I don't personally subscribe to that thinking so far, but I definitely can see why others - especially long-time fans of the franchise - feel that way. It's a lot more like early Zelda games where they drop you in and kinda just let you play, something that kinda fell to the wayside once they started caring a bit more about story in the N-64 days. (It gets especially bad come Wind Waker/Twilight Princess/Skyward Sword though.)

Obviously, these are early impressions and feelings on the game based on my experience with it, and things are liable to change both for the better and worse as I play on.

Here are the things I don't really like or care for:

- Weapon degradation. This is a common criticism of any game that includes it as an element, but frankly, BotW does it perhaps worse than any other game I've played that has it. I've said this before, but I can appreciate wanting to force players to experiment with various weapon types. But I don't think forcing me to change weapons mid-fight after just one or two enemies is, well, fun. So far, I've not been able to get any sense of what types of weapons I might even enjoy using because before I can feel comfortable with its moveset, it breaks and I have to scramble to equip or find something new. I don't mind the way Dark Souls does degradation, in that weapons take a long time to break (well, most do at any rate), and that you can fix them at certain places so you can get more time with it. To me, actually being allowed to spend time using a weapon encouraged me to mix things up and experiment *far more* than this does.

I liken it to summer reading in school. You could convince me to read Grapes of Wrath if you just told me it's a good book and told me a little about it. But the moment you tell me that I *have* to read it and take away a bunch of other books I wanted to read with my time instead, I'm going to be frustrated and not want to read it. Which will inevitably impact how I take it all in. BotW could have simply had weapons last a liiiiiiittle longer. I know I'm still early, so many of the weapons I'm picking up are useless overall anyway. But even the weapons that seem better, I'm reluctant to use because I might need them later for tougher enemies.

Even outside all that, weapon/shield degradation also completely disrupts the flow of combat for me. I'll be in the middle of a fight, really starting to get familiar with the controls, having a mostly good time. And then I attack one enemy just enough that my weapon breaks, and then...I have to scramble for a moment so that I can press the right arrow key and then navigate a menu to select my next weapon. It's clunky AF, to be honest. Completely disrupts the combat for me, to the point where I've yet to feel the sensation of "fun" while fighting because it's so uneven. Let the weapons last a little longer *and* automatically switch to the next weapon in your list so when it breaks, you don't have to navigate a menu (unless you want a different weapon), and that solves that issue.

- Menus. While we're at it. There kinda just are too many things that require navigating menus. I know this is actually pretty common in Zelda games, but oof. Weapons and armor require menus during battle. Cooking requires navigating the menu, equipping things, then aiming and dropping them into a pot (more on the impending cooking issue in a moment). You get so much crap that it feels like I'm constantly messing around with my inventory so I can pick up new things. I've logged 10 hours of gameplay, but probably at least one of those hours is just spent in menus! (Being hyperbolic here. It definitely isn't that high. But just how reliant this game is on menus is a little frustrating to me: see above "flow" complaint.)

- Just a little too open. I mostly don't love open world games because I don't often feel like there's a lot of diverse things to actually do. Ten hours in, I can't say I feel very different about BotW. As I climb my third or fourth tower that displays more of the map, I'm kinda struck by how in actually, BotW is just like every other open world game I've ever played...except they don't mark anything on the map when you climb the tower. (More on this in the "Things I Like" section though.) Still, while I was being hyperbolic about the time spent in menus, it's probably not an exaggeration to say that a good chunk of my playtime is just...running around... on the one hand, I do enjoy exploring. On the other, traversal isn't exactly "fun" or "engaging" to me. I hear at some point I can ride a horse, but I can't imagine that will change terribly much on that front.

Being so open has some pros and some cons. The cons, to me, is that important information can be easily missed early since you don't have to do much specifically. I'm sure by now you've heard of my frustrating battle with cooking, and I think this is a good example of what I mean. Everyone, including characters in BotW itself, told me of the importance of cooking. But the game itself never told me how to actually do that. I played for five or six hours before I *accidentally* figured it out. Going through menus (again, gotta navigate the menus first), you essentially "equip" a food item, and then if you're standing near a fire or pot over the fire, you just...then drop it. I see the logic of it, but I'm sorry, this isn't sooooo intuitive a system that ya can't just say one little bubble of dialog to point that out. I've heard that someone does explain it somewhere, but I never encountered that. If it is true that it does get explained, if you find a certain person in a certain location, this is an example of why being too open, especially too early, can be bad.

Or a better example, even, would be some special moves. I just did a shrine near Kakiro Village where the game used it as a tutorial for how to do things like side jump and back flip, power up and release, and parry. These are all battle mechanics that would have made the first ten hours of my game more fun! But because they unleashed me into their sandbox with minimal instruction, I didn't go straight to this shrine. (This was also one of my big issues with Ghost of Tsushima, which I think does this even worse.)

And of course, one of the most frustrating elements to me with how open it is, is: I feel like the game is trolling sometimes. Like I spend 10 minutes climbing this stupid mountain that the map makes seem like I have to climb to get to the next story destination. Get to the top and...there's a Guardian right there. I try to get away, but I've got nowhere near enough stamina to actually be able to get away, so it just one-shot kills me. It's, suffice it to say, frustrating and feels pretty disrespectful of my time. (After going Mad Max, Final Fantasy XV, and Death Stranding all in a row, I'm really conscientious of how games treat the player's time.) And like, ok, sure, I figured out later that there were additional routes, but it's still the kind of "trial and error" that can take like, half an hour or more.

- Climbing. Ok, so, I get that this is "better" than linear climbing from the likes of Assassin's Creed or Uncharted, where you can only climb where the game specifically put paths for climbing. But...even being able to free solo everything, it's still just boooooooooring to me. Climbing will never be a fun mechanic. It's not fun to me in Uncharted. It's not fun to me in Ghost of Tsushima. It's not fun for me in Splinter Cell. And it's not fun for me in Breath of the Wild. Really wish I had one of those Final Fantasy re-release Fast-Forward options available when I climb. It takes so long and it's so tedious.

Things I'm Not Necessarily Liking, But Isn't a Big Deal:

- Weather. On the most part, I don't mind weather mechanics in games. But here, it can be kind of annoying sometimes when I'm spending 45 minutes trying to get to a location, start to climb a cliff, then it starts raining and I can't climb it. So I have to wait around. Could try to find a fire to rest until morning but...it's raining so it puts out fires. Hasn't happened a ton, but I actually do find rain to be pretty obnoxious. I get "realism" and all that, but I kinda wish developers wouldn't necessarily put in "realistic" mechanics that aren't, well, "fun." (Also looking at you, Death Stranding.)

- Physics. Ok, so probably one of my most "controversial" takes is that the physics in this game are...wonky... There are times I'm on a level spot, but the moment I put a bomb down, it rolls like a mile at an unreasonably quick clip! The rag doll effect when you get hit with certain force or weapons is also straight up like, 2007-era video game physics. When I've had to swim, I've found the current to be incredibly shocking in terms of where it appears the river is flowing and then how hard it actually is to swim in it. I've also encountered some pretty whacky things when trying to stack metal boxes, which is required in at least one of the shrines I've done. For a game that's pretty much all about physics and all its puzzles are built around it, I find it to be kinda all over the place. Some of this is just a lack of familiarity. But not all of it is. (Seriously, some of my bombs have rolled a wild distance with bonkers speed given the terrain I'm placing it in.)

Things I Quite Enjoy:

- Exploring. So I said earlier that essentially, I can't distinguish between BotW and every other open world game I've played. Like so far, the game gives me a pin that's the next story thing to do, and then I can run around and....fight enemies in little encampments, go to shrines and do puzzles, hunt animals, or climb towers to see more of the map. Am I talking about Zelda, or Far Cry 4 right now?

That said, I also noted the key difference is that the game doesn't mark everything on your map. While I've so far felt there to be a lack of diverse and interesting things to do in this sandbox (again, thus far), I also have enjoyed checking things out on my own. I like that when I climb a tower, the game "reveals" the map to a degree, but just essentially the topography. Any locations of interest, I have to find myself, or mark on my map myself. This is very different from a Far Cry game where climbing a radio tower then shows you the location of all the side content. So then you just mindlessly go from thing to thing to check them off the list. (It reminds me a bit of why I love Firewatch, a game with not a huge world, but the fact that you navigate it largely with a map and a compass rather than way points makes it feel more open and more free.) So I think this is an effective mask for the game.

- Combat overall. Whenever I've had combat encounters in which my weapon holds for the whole time, I have had a good time in battle. I'm sure that's going to increase now that the game has taught me about parrying. Controls still feel a liiiiiittle bit clunky to me, but if I can get used to older Zelda games, no reason to believe I won't get used to this. I can definitely see my enjoyment of combat increasing throughout the game. (Pending the durability of my weapons.)

- The freedom. So, I said earlier that to much freedom can work against a game. And I do think it opens up too much too fast. Felt like it could have used a little bit more in the beginning to ensure some key mechanics were somewhat communicated regardless of what the player does. That said, it's also clear the openness and freedom is an incredibly attractive element of the game overall. I haven't necessarily had any moments like I had when I played the Pathless, wherein I figured out how to jury-rig a solution that the game clearly didn't intend for me to do, but allowed me to, but I can see that that might be possible. Outside of weird shrines where you have to follow one path to avoid stepping on flowers, it kinda does at least feel like there are more often than not, multiple solutions or multiple ways to accomplish something.

- The aesthetics. I just really love the visual and audio vibe of this game. I think this is without question my favorite look of a Zelda game. On top of that, I love the score. (Been a while since I noticed a score, although mostly because they lean reeeeeally bad into the Ocarina score and then important many of those tracks into every game since.) I will say, it's so far kinda strange that there hasn't been an instrument component to this game (but I mostly joke because I really don't care.)

So, am I liking the game overall? Yep! I don't loooove it. It's definitely not my favorite thing ever. And so far, I don't get the impression that it will be suuuuper high on my top 20 games list or anything like that. But I also definitely see why for many others, this is the best Zelda games ever, and one of the best overall games ever, too. It's definitely not going to be everybody's cup of tea. I'll say that I'm kinda getting Dark Souls vibes from it, in the sense that some of the elements I find frustrating exist in both, but also that both are games that I really feel like I need to just sit and focus on. So can't play like, an hour of BotW, and then play an hour of something else after. Feels like - like a Souls game - I really need to just focus on this one.

I'm definitely having less "fun" with it than I had with like, Link's Awakening or Link to the Past. But I'm also more into it at this point than I was in the N-64 games or Wind Waker. (It's probably neck and neck with Twilight Princess in terms of how long it took before I realized, "I do like this, even though I don't like so many of these elements.")

There are 198 Replies

You obviously didnt understand the game. I understood how the game should be played and I was rewarded for it. Tsk.

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4 Months ago
S.O.H.

For some reason, I didn't realize how much I was typing when I made this post last night, ha.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Zelda was my brother's favorite franchise, so in some ways it's nostalgic even though I suck at it and don't really play it. He always said he though OOT was overrated and that Windwaker was the best game in the series.

4 Months ago
IKM

My initial impressions of BOTW weren't so great either. But once I found the fairy fountains and started upgrading my clothes, plus actually used the stat modifiers and farmed better equipment, not to mention expanded my inventory like crazy (maxed out bows, will max out others soon), the game became a cakewalk. You do feel very weak at the start, I think that's the point. At the start the game has you with 3-5 hearts facing a Lynel and Waterblight Ganon, and you haven't quite fully understood all the systems up to that point. But the more you play, the more you farm, the more you learn, the better equipment you find, the better meals you cook, the stronger you become. This game rewards players greatly for exploring and NOT trying to speed through the main quest. Explore thoroughly: you'll find Koroks, treasure, great weapons, and sometimes even armor.

One thing's for certain: if you're not good enough, you have to adapt to the game, not the other way around. You CAN ignore some of the sidequests and missions and not talk to anyone, but then you'll miss critical tools to help you finish the fight. I'm glad you said you like it, trust me, it only gets better from here on out.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

BOTW would be a much better game if there was a setting where weapons don't break.

4 Months ago
IKM

Then what's the point? There are over 160 weapons in the game, and your inventory can only hold 4 at the start. If every weapon you find lasts forever, you'll beat one Lynel, take the royal series, and never care for finding another weapon again. People who harp on this mechanic are clearly using the poorly made boko weapons and tree branches, or they'll find a really cool weapon like a frostspear and repeatedly attack with that (you're supposed to swap it out after freezing someone with it). Traveler's weapons are better, knight's weapons are better, Lizfalos weapons are much better, the royal series is the best, and if you're willing to sacrifice a bit of durability, the Lynel weapons are the most powerful.

I don't see a way to fix the durability other than the game telling people outright different weapons have different durability, and try to use things other than your weapons sometimes to make sure they last longer. WHICH IT DOES, REPEATEDLY. If you're stubborn, every mechanic in this game will be terrible.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Its why I don't play it.

4 Months ago
IKM

Because you're stubborn? Durability is not the problem, you just want to take one sword and slash through the whole game, and you're upset that you can't do that. Zelda is NOT primarily a combat game, it was always action-adventure. And the weapon system plays into that nicely. They turned the game's combat into a kind of puzzle.

- Always replace poor, broken weapons with good ones
- Use better arrows, modifiers, and alternate attacks to increase power for heavier enemies and save wear-and-tear on weapons
- Use the Master Sword any chance you get - it never breaks completely
- Explore! Great weapons are hiding in chests all over the world, around shrines all over the world, and certain enemies carry amazing weapons (Hinox, Moldugas, and Lynels have some of the best weapons in the game, Lizfalos tend to be better than usual).
- You can always rebuild the champions weapons, all you need is a diamond and a lower-grade weapon of the same sort. You can farm diamonds in select locations, or just trade 10 luminous stones to Ledo. And the lower-grade weapons are always nearby. Use the Sheikah sensor to find things if you need to.

I have friends that beat the entire game, found almost all the shrines, and literally don't realize you can actually do some of these things. But because I actually talked with NPCs, explored, learned the game's mechanics, and played smart, the game has rewarded me greatly. Now it's an absolute cakewalk, I'm farming Lynels and making tough choices because my weapons last too long. I'm literally leaving royal broadswords behind because I have so many. BoTW digs a little deeper than the hack-and-slash it seems most people were hoping for. But that's exactly why I love it. Everything is a puzzle, a challenge, one that you can approach in many ways.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

With your debate style here on gtx0, you calling someone else stubborn is fucking rich. I think you need to be stubborn to enjoy this game, not the other way around. I lack the attention span to be that stubborn.

4 Months ago
IKM

I just don't think I'm the target demographic of the game. I don't like puzzles too much. Unless they're chess puzzles. Those are alright.

4 Months ago
IKM

If I refuse to change my stance it's because my stance is correct. I didn't have a single issue with durability because I made the game's systems work for me. If there are a bunch of high-level enemies crowded together around explosives, that's a pretty good time for a bomb arrow. I'm always farming gems, selling to buy more arrows, and such. When I explore I find Korok seeds and prioritize my weapon slot. I'll use attack modifiers and Urbosa's Fury to make fights shorter. And I'm always aware of what weapon I'm using and manage my inventory so I'm not using my best weapons on an enemy that takes tons of damage and gives garbage weapons in return. I never walk away with a Boko club when I could've had a Lizfalos boomerang. I don't just keep hacking people with weapons, I use every tool in my arsenal to get the job done. And the end result is BoTW's incredibly easy, but only if you play it right.

15/18 weapons in my inventory are stuck there forever. I practically never have to use them because my stash lasts so long. When one sword doesn't even break to take down a Lynel, what am I supposed to do? I'm leaving behind some of the greatest weapons in the game because my inventory is already perfect and I can't hold any more. I'd like to try a version of the game where durability is cut down to 1/4. I still think that'll be too easy.

The game has plenty of systems to make fights shorter and weapons last longer. It's not the game's fault you literally decided "nope, just gonna hack with a sword until it breaks and whine about it." It's like complaining there's too much jumping in Mario. If you just want to swing swords, play Age of Calamity. BoTW requires a little bit more consideration than that. I don't find that to be a problem, it's one of the game's greatest strengths. If swords were OP, no one would bother with anything else.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

The Master Sword is essentially a sword that you never lose. You need a decent number of hearts to get it, but once you do the game tilts heavily in your favor, and durability is no longer an issue. If it breaks, it comes back in 5 minutes.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Ah but is your stance a wide stance?

4 Months ago
IKM

Because you're stubborn? Durability is not the problem, you just want to take one sword and slash through the whole game

I'm curious: have you read any of my responses to this line of thinking? Because as I've explained in multiple places, I think they can very well incentivize switching up weapons without having them break as quickly and easily as they do. The idea that you need this kind of degradation to push players into using different weapons throughout the game ignores games that have weapon degradation but not nearly to the same level that I and others have complained about, and that many games don't even do weapon degradation but players often wind up changing up what weapons they use.

But also, if I want one sword to slash my way through the whole game because that's the most fun form of combat to me...why is that bad? If the game is forcing me to use weapons I don't actively enjoy using, how much "freedom" am I actually being given by the game? Why is it "bad" for me to play the game in a way that is actually fun for me? You can't really have it both ways and saying "the game isn't holding your hand" but then praise it for forcing me to do something I don't want to do because *they* decided that I should mix up my weapon selection more. I mean, it's just sort of wild to suggest that it doesn't matter if the game is "fun" so long as the designers succeed in their intention.

Again, it's not the degradation in and of itself that is the problem. As I said in a number of posts, I have no problem with weapon degradation in something like Dark Souls. But compare how Dark Souls does it to how Breath of the Wild does it. With Dark Souls, weapons can last a while, and they can be repaired so that if you find one that you really, really like playing with, you can use it the rest of the game if you want! (So...player choice, basically.) But, repairing weapons costs souls and items that can be tricky to find sometimes. There's innately incentive to mix it up a bit because you might not have the resources needed or might want to save some souls for leveling up your character instead.

On top of that, there are more powerful weapons throughout the game. While the stats don't make or break a weapon in terms of how it's used (plenty of more powerful weapons had move sets I found unbearably slow to my play style, so I didn't use them), it often merits at least playing around with it. And this says nothing of the fact that you'll often get a weapon that just straight up looks dope and so you'll use it for a while just to see if you like it.

Even though you *could* just get the Claymore early in that game and level it up a whole bunch, use it the entire game, never try another weapon, and beat the game just fine, it's not super likely most players will wind up doing that. Even with greater durability, I as a player was *much* more likely to *willingly* experiment with different weapons in Dark Souls than I am in Breath of the Wild.

Because in BotW so far, I have no reason to think anything about any weapon. They shatter before I really have the time to become familiar with them. So instead of spending battles trying to "get good" at the combat, I'm preparing myself for the inevitable chaotic flurry of the weapon breaking, needing to put a little distance between us, and then accessing the menu to select another weapon - which more often than not at this stage has been a different type of weapon. Either way, the combat is routinely disrupted by the poor durability of them.

So when you dismiss this criticism as just "you don't want to be bothered to try new things" or that we're "too stubborn," I mean...we don't want to be bothered... to play a game in a way that isn't super fun?

And as I noted as well: the poor durability of weapons actually *discourages* me from using better weapons I might like, because I don't want to lose them so quickly or on common enemies. That's not me "playing it wrong." That's me playing in a way that the game has influenced. The degradation system as it's implemented has actively encouraged me to save the better weapons in case I need them for tougher enemies, which means I'm constantly playing with weapons I don't really care for.

Which is not very fun. And I feel like you can't really just ignore how important that is in a video game. To be sure, it's not like using spears is a miserable experience to me. This isn't Skyward Sword! But it's also not "fun" either. And if I had more freedom to use the weapons I actively want to try, instead of having the game constantly force me to pick up weapons I *don't* want to use, I'd have a much better time with this game.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Then what's the point? There are over 160 weapons in the game

There are well over 160 weapons in games like Borderlands, and there has to be at least 100 weapons in each Dark Souls game. The latter has a much better degradation system, in which degradation isn't really the main reason for changing weapons. The former doesn't even have a degradation system at all.

If the only way you can think of to encourage players to use different weapons is to literally force them to because they break super quickly, you could probably flesh that idea out a little more. Additionally, if the only justification you can come up with for including 100+ weapons in your game is to *make* the player use as many of them as possible, you're probably designing the game wrong.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

It's not the game's fault you literally decided "nope, just gonna hack with a sword until it breaks and whine about it."

But it *is* the game's fault that I have not been able to actually enjoy any of the weapons I've been allowed to use, because they don't allow me the opportunity to get to know them. I *want* to experiment with weapons and try out different ones. That was one of my favorite aspects of Dark Souls. But in order to do that, I actually need to be able to become familiar enough with weapon types to know if I enjoy them or not. BotW literally won't let me do that. And sure, I can fudge things if I really want: go out of my way to ensure that every weapon I pick up is a spear or a two-handed sword, but that's not always, well, friendly to players who don't hours and hours and hours to waste doing literally nothing.

And again, it's not even just that the game refuses to let me play with weapons on my own terms. It's also that weapons breaking mid-battle - which is a *constant* occurrence at this stage in the game - literally disrupts the flow of combat. Would you at least concede that some sort of "quick switch" button might have been more player-friendly?

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Think about it: the game's greatest weapons are found on every Hinox, Lynel, Molduga, and in chests and shrines scattered throughout the world. If they lasted forever, all you need to do is find one good weapon and you're done. The Master Sword would be meaningless. Just take down a Lynel and you're set for life.

Now, if you could repair any weapon, all you need to do is have a good set and repairs will be easy. You still end with the same problem. If you try to balance that by making the good set require rare items that are hard to find, similar to armor upgrades, then that would be practically useless. It'd be easier to just take down more enemies. And you can already repair the Champion's weapons somewhat easily.

If there was an unlimited inventory of weapons, there'd be no need for Koroks to expand inventory, and no need for attack modifiers. So you'd get practically no reward at all for exploring.

There isn't any other way around it. Anything you do to make durability "better" would break everything the game has going in its favor. As it is right now it encourages exploration to find good weapons and boost inventory. It encourages foraging and cooking attack modifiers to make battles shorter. It encourages experimentation to lower weapon usage. And it encourages enemy battles to upgrade armor, get parts you can sell, and also farm weapons which don't last forever. And the Master Sword is such an important weapon to get because it never truly goes away. If you take advantage of everything the game has working for you, you'll find the good weapons are actually insanely reliable. But even 10 hours in you might not even stumble across a single royal weapon. Keep playing, and see if you have the same opinion after you get the Master Sword and farm Lynels and royals.

As for the variety of weapons, most of the lower-end series make sense for weaker players going through the story. Later on you'll find the elementals have good use, the different bow types all have strengths for different purposes, and the different styles are better for different things. There isn't one weapon that trumps them all, many of them have a good purpose.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

But in order to do that, I actually need to be able to become familiar enough with weapon types to know if I enjoy them or not.

There are three weapon types. If you know how to use a one-handed sword, a two-handed sword, and a spear, that's pretty much everything. There are boomerangs, elementals, and rods, but those piggyback off of the existing systems and are only used for specific tasks. You don't have to learn 160 weapons, only 3 (or 4-5 if you consider boomerangs and rods a "different weapon to master"). You don't really master weapons, that's not the game.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

I skimmed through what you said. I actually enjoyed the weapon degradation. It forces the player to try a variety of weapons (and master said weapons/ movesets) vs letting the player just stick to one. (Granted you can go out of your way to just pick up and keep the same weapon lol) I understand it is not everyones cup of tea but it forced me to try something new and adapt on the fly when ever my favorite weapon did break. I found it a bigger issue early on vs later on in the game.

I believe by the end of the game you can carry a shitload of gear with you so it breaking never became much of an issue for me. As to whether or not it is fun different strokes I guess. I enjoyed having to adapt on the fly when a weapon did break or when I ended up with no weapons. But I can see why others dont like it.

The exploration was one of my favorite parts of the game. There are certain areas I missed out on because I was too busy exploring around the map. (I dont think I discovered shield surfing until after I had already beat the game ffs)

4 Months ago
S.O.H.

Honestly, the game is so big you'll keep finding stuff for a long time, even after you beat it. I didn't find the Akkala region or set up a house until like right before I faced Ganon. Didn't realize there was anti-guardian gear at all, or a weapon stash in my home. No wonder I was having trouble. And recently I discovered there are certain spots that are surefire diamond mines.

In many games, if you have an issue, the issue is usually with the game. But in BoTW if you run into an issue, it's because you didn't find that certain place, or do something in a certain way to take care of that problem and make it easier. If I didn't find all 4 fairies and upgrade all my armor, I wouldn't be able to farm Lynels as easily. If I didn't get the master sword, dealing with durability would be way harder. If I didn't complete the climbing gear set, climbing tall mountains would take a lot more time.

It's a double-edged sword. A game like this GREATLY rewards you for exploring, but if you don't find those things, you won't have a good time.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

All I proposed, Mariom, was a SETTING where weapons don't break. It doesn't mean you and other people who liked weapons breaking would have to turn it on.

4 Months ago
IKM

Like, in some racing games you have the option to turn realistic car damage on or off. This would be similar to that. I want a more "arcade" version of BOTW where it isn't quite so realistic. I want my weapons to be invincible whether it's logical or not. The same way I want my car to be invincible in games where that's possible. I wanna be able to flip the car, crash it, and keep driving.

4 Months ago
IKM

I'd largely agree with your points here Jet, although I don't mind the climbing or how "open" it is. Breath of the Wild is a good game, but I'd argue the combat system (largely due to weapon degradation) holds it back from being a truly 'great' game. I'd still probably rank it among the best "open-world" games I've ever played, but that's a fairly low bar.

I really hope the sequel will not be held back by the same design decisions.

4 Months ago
Count Dooku

I love this game just the way it is. If a sequel is made without weapons degredation, there'd need to be some other reason to encourage exploration and experimentation. Maybe there won't be a good variety in the weapons, because having so many different kinds of weapons would be meaningless. And whacking enemies with a sword for 100 hours straight does not sound fun.

The director spoke with IGN about petting the dog. He said it would be difficult to add another command to the game because the way it's structured, you'd have to be able to do that command to every object, and it would've been too much work to just pet a dog. IGN suggested you could pet Bokoblins, other creatures, or end the whole game's central conflict by petting Ganon. The director laughed, but said the strong response he got from people wanting to pet the dog gave him some ideas that might come in the sequel. I think it would be cool if you could turn some enemies into your ally and have a posse. It would be great if you could actually make friends with the enemies and bond/become friends over time. There are some missions in Zelda that require a "live" NPC to physically help you, that would be pretty interesting.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

If a sequel is made without weapons degredation, there'd need to be some other reason to encourage exploration and experimentation.

See, I find this take incredibly strange. Not once in my playtime have I said "I should climb that mountain to see if there's a weapon up there". That's not why I explore in this game. I explore to find shrines, side quests, and resources for upgrading gear. The weapons I find along the way are kind of 'whatever', because the game doesn't want me to get attached to anything I find.

There's also plenty of experimentation to be done outside of combat.

Maybe there won't be a good variety in the weapons, because having so many different kinds of weapons would be meaningless. And whacking enemies with a sword for 100 hours straight does not sound fun.

I realize we're drumming heavily on Dark Souls here, but again, Dark Souls manages this with flying colors and is a better game (combat wise) for it!

You yourself have said there are over 160 weapons. But you also have admitted that every one of them basically shares 1 of 3 movesets (with a few exceptions). Ultimately the game may have 160 different weapons with different damage levels, but fundamentally the weapon pool is small.

Compare it to Dark Souls 1. Just going by the wiki, there are:

6 Daggers
13 Straight Swords
13 Greatswords
5 Ultra Greatswords
7 Curved Swords
4 Katanas
3 Curved Greatswords
5 Piercing Swords (Rapiers)
6 Axes
5 Great Axes
9 Hammers
6 Great Hammers
4 "Fist and Claw" weapons
10 Spears
9 Halberds
3 Whips
7 Bows
4 Crossbows
2 Pyromancy Flames
11 Catalysts
7 Talismans

That's a grand total of 139 weapons at the player's disposal (121 if you want to be pedantic and exclude Catalysts/Talismans). In addition:

Each weapon can be upgraded a number of times (1-5 for "special" weapons, 1-15 for normal), increasing damage/durability/etc so that they can "scale" with your journey.

Each weapon, even within it's own category, will often have 'special moves' that are unique to that particular weapon.

With this setup, there is a massive breadth of experimentation for the player to engage in. This goes -far- beyond the relatively limited experimentation you get with 160 weapons that ultimately fall into 3ish movesets.

And just to be clear, no, Breath of the Wild does not have to be "Dark Souls". That's not what I'm saying here. The point is that there are other ways to implement these kinds of systems (weapon durability included!) that can still work within the framework of the game quite well.

And whacking enemies with a sword for 100 hours straight does not sound fun.

It largely worked for past Zelda games, and most other video games that incorporate combat. But this is a false premise on your part. Changing BoTW's durability/weapon system would not automatically mean that you're just "whacking enemies with a sword for 100 hours straight".

4 Months ago
Count Dooku

I skimmed through what you said. I actually enjoyed the weapon degradation. It forces the player to try a variety of weapons (and master said weapons/ movesets) vs letting the player just stick to one.

See, maybe it gets to that point at some point for me. But in my first 10-12 hours of playing, the weapons break so quickly that I don't even feel like I *can* get acquainted with a variety of weapons. I don't think I can even tell you if there are weapons I *like* using, because at best, I'm lucky if I can attack three enemies with one before it shatters. If the weapons were more durable and I got some more time with them before they shatter, I could understand this philosophy (to a degree - I also still maintain that if a player just wants to use swords or axes because that's what's most fun for them, I don't see why the game would actively want to prevent that.)

I believe by the end of the game you can carry a shitload of gear with you so it breaking never became much of an issue for me.

Well, I wasn't saying that it's an issue for me because when a weapon breaks, I don't have a weapon. I was saying that it's an issue for me because they break so quickly that I don't feel I'm given adequate time to really familiarize myself with each weapon's move-sets and the rhythms of combat with them. And also because they shatter so quickly that almost always I can bank on having to interrupt combat to navigate the menu to select a new weapon, which for me disrupts the flow. It's like, imagine in Dark Souls if you constantly have to pause the game to select a new weapon when you're in the middle of a fight with a few enemies and a Black Knight. It's not that they don't give you enough weapons. It's that it's. so far been mostly disruptive and it isn't giving me enough time to get into them.

I imagine this might change later in the game. Presumably, better weapons will last longer, so I'm fully acknowledging that this might not be a complaint I have throughout the entirety of the game. But for my first 10-12 hours of play, this mechanic has easily been the biggest detriment to my ability to enjoy fighting.

I'd largely agree with your points here Jet, although I don't mind the climbing or how "open" it is.

For clarity, my issue is more specifically about it being too open too early. Overall, now that I've more or less finally been taught the important core mechanics, I enjoy the openness a lot more. But the flip side to it was that early on, I never found the guy who teaches some of those core mechanics *because* the game is open right away. As a result, my enjoyment of the game has really been weakened in these first ten+ hours. I don't think they needed to do too too much early on, but some of the core stuff should be like, *right* in your way very early on. It's kinda wild to be double-digit hours into the game and *now* the game is telling me that I can parry.

I complained about this with Ghost of Tsushima too, which I think is a worse example of this. I was doing missions clearly designed for stealth *before* the game taught me the stealth mechanics because it dumped me out into the sandbox without teaching me all the core mechanics. So, I went around to explore and do side quests for hours and hours, frustratingly muscling through those stealth quests. It was only after a did a specific story mission that the game then taught me stealth. What makes that worse is that you actually can't do basic things like "stealth kill" in that game *until* you do the story mission that unlocks it. Which is wild. At least here you *can* do a back flip before you get to the shrine tutorial for it. (Which is sorta funny because to be honest, the back flip is much more intuitive than cooking mechanics are! But I got a tutorial for the former, but not the latter.)

I just think that there are some cons to being sooo open. But overall, it is one of the aspects I mostly really like.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

If they lasted forever, all you need to do is find one good weapon and you're done.

So, three response I have to this. First, I'm not suggesting I want these weapons to "last forever." I just want them to last long enough that I can actually get into the flow of combat and actually become familiar with the different types of weapons. As I said, my issue isn't so specifically that there *is* degradation; it's *how* it's implemented.

But the second thing is, there are many ways one can design weapons to encourage variety. As I pointed out, Dark Souls and Borderlands are two video games that are known for having tons and tons of weapons. The former has degradation but weapons last for quite a while. The latter doesn't have degradation at all. Both encourage variety through various means that doesn't rely on *forcing* the player to do something. Having different kinds of weapons (axes, clubs, great swords, spears, et cet) is one way to do that. And arguably, this style of degradation doesn't necessarily guarantee diversity in weapon use either. Like, I've found a lot of spears, so feasibly I *could* just pick up a bunch of spears and use them, replacing the last spear with the next spear. So far as I can tell (which, granted, is limited because they haven't really let me see what each weapon type has to offer), there doesn't seem to be a massive difference in move sets in these departments.

What they *could* do is mix up move sets so that there is diversity even within types of weapons. Make it so that shrine weapons or specially obtained weapons have differing traits, or differing move sets. That would encourage experimentation *without* removing player choice on the matter. They could make certain weapons have differing properties as well. You could, for example, have a sword that does more damage as it degrades for some magical reason or whatever, so that there's sort of a risk/reward element to equipping it and actually using it, forcing players to calculate if now is a good time to be willing to lose that sword. You could have some spears weaken as they degrade, but if you throw them, they do massive damage. You could have some two-handed swords provide a window to parry, or some shields the ability to do damage itself with a successful parry. You could have some weapons perhaps extend the "rush mode" or whatever that is called. Or have others give a shorter window, but do more damage.

Point here is that there are plenty of ways to *encourage* using other weapons. On some level you have to admit that degradation isn't about encouraging players to do something. It's about forcing players to do something.

But my third response is: so what if a player gets a weapon, really likes it, and has a good time with it? Why is it *bad* that a player likes a weapon and wants to use it for the whole game because it's fun for them? It's worked pretty well for this franchise so far! I'm not sure you can have it both ways and praise the game for "not holding your hand" and "giving you total freedom," and then also praise it for "forcing players to use other weapons" even if those weapons aren't fun for the player.

Anything you do to make durability "better" would break everything the game has going in its favor.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment. There is nothing broken by letting me use a weapon I like for, I dunno, an hour maybe? That doesn't suddenly hugely break the game. I already have to constantly play inventory management because they give you so much stuff to pick up, so if there's a weapon I'm curious to try, I already have to drop some weapon to do so.

If you know how to use a one-handed sword, a two-handed sword, and a spear, that's pretty much everything.

You seem to be missing the point I'm making. I get this, but my point is that at this stage in the game at least, I am not really given teh opportunity to *really* get to know these weapon types *because* they keep shattering before I really get time to get the feel for them. That is why I want more durability. I'm not asking for Dark Souls-level durability here. But I would like the opportunity to actually be able to get into the flow of combat sometime and get a feel for any of these weapons. They're so fragile and break so quickly that that has yet to happen after 10+ hours of play.

If a sequel is made without weapons degredation, there'd need to be some other reason to encourage exploration and experimentation.

Yeah, see, this is sorta funny to me because there has yet to be a moment where I've spent an hour making my way to a different part of the map, tediously climbing some mountain, desperately fleeing a Guardian, dying several times on my way, because I think, "Oooh. I hope there's a good weapon at the end of this rainbow!" And to be honest, even if there were a good weapon there, I'm not likely to use it for a while because I don't want to lose it yet.

And whacking enemies with a sword for 100 hours straight does not sound fun.

I keep coming back to this and wondering: what does it matter to you if that is or isn't fun for someone else? (This is kinda the whole "easy mode on Dark Souls" conversation, too.) Because the thing is: if weapons last longer, no one is forcing *you* to play with only a sword for 100 hours straight. But by having them break so quickly, they *are* forcing me to use weapons I might not enjoy using for hours on end. Why is removing the choice the better option here?

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

See, I find this take incredibly strange. Not once in my playtime have I said "I should climb that mountain to see if there's a weapon up there".

In order to build a good weapon stash, you have to search the land for Hinoxes and Lynels that haven't been defeated before the blood moon.

I realize we're drumming heavily on Dark Souls here, but again, Dark Souls manages this with flying colors and is a better game (combat wise) for it!

Zelda is not about combat. There is already so much to take in with the world, if I had to learn dozens of different weapon types and worry about upgrading weapons along with my armor, that's just insane. For what it's worth, I have no issue with BoTW's combat. Its combat is more puzzling, which brings it all back to the nature of Zelda, which I love.

With this setup, there is a massive breadth of experimentation for the player to engage in. This goes -far- beyond the relatively limited experimentation you get with 160 weapons that ultimately fall into 3ish movesets.

So, in BoTW there are elemental weapons like the frostspear, which freezes enemies. If an enemy is frozen, your next attack has a very high multiplier, I think 3x. So you can switch out for a weapon that deals your most powerful single hit and do triple damage. It's not just the individual weapons, which do have some tricks on their own, but also how it all comes together. The rods are good for an attack from the distance, you can use stasis to freeze an enemy in time, attack repeatedly while it's frozen, and watch them go flying in a ball of fire. If we want to add innate abilities to the list, there are 4 abilities from the champions, 3 from the Sheikah slate, and plenty of mechanics in the world. This is not including all the different bow types and arrows, or the multipliers you get from food and armor sets. Zelda's combat is very expressive, and very effective. You don't need a bunch of complicated weapon categories.

And just to be clear, no, Breath of the Wild does not have to be "Dark Souls". That's not what I'm saying here. The point is that there are other ways to implement these kinds of systems (weapon durability included!) that can still work within the framework of the game quite well.

There might be a case to be made for having more primary weapon types... but I think that's overcomplicating things. Right now when I decide which weapon to keep, I know I need a selection of swords because they're better at general combat (plus, you have a shield) and two-handed swords because they're better at cutting trees and taking out Hinox's and flurry rush Lynels. Then I make sure to have an elemental. I need to make sure I have some non-metallic weapons (like the ancient set) so they don't attract lightning, and the ancient set specifically gets 80% attack boost with the ancient armor set. The game is complicated enough with the few simple systems it has running congruently. Having dozens of completely different weapon types will make everything a lot more difficult to manage. In Zelda, you're not expected to master the weapons themselves, but similar to Paper Mario, you develop strategies combining them with the other mechanics in interesting ways.

So we come back to the reason why the weapons break in the first place. It allows us to get comfortable with a simple movement set and only ask questions like "is this a one-handed sword?" and "do I want a durable set, or something more powerful?" Keep in mind Korok seeds are tied to inventory, so if weapons were more durable, we'd lose all the exploration benefits and minigames from Koroks.

It largely worked for past Zelda games, and most other video games that incorporate combat. But this is a false premise on your part. Changing BoTW's durability/weapon system would not automatically mean that you're just "whacking enemies with a sword for 100 hours straight".

I never liked the combat in past Zelda games. I mentioned this many times. It was too static and simple. But I love the combat here. The most brilliant boss fights in Twilight Princess you can have in the overworld here with random enemies. There might be a way to make combat interesting with more durable weapons, but you'd have absolutely no incentive to play the game effectively or strategically because your weapons will last longer and you don't need to worry about it. I think any radical change does not take into account all the other systems and the way they were meant to be used. I like the game the way it is now, and I can't imagine how it could be made better. More is not always better.

As for weapon upgrades, that's essentially why there are so many different weapons in BoTW. So when you upgrade from a traveler's sword to a knight's sword to a royal sword, or when you get the champion's weapons like the Lightscale trident, you are literally upgrading your weapon.

Keep in mind Zelda is NOT intended to be a combat-heavy series, it's supposed to be about the puzzles, the story, and the exploration. The combat is perfect for making those elements really shine.

But of course, some gamers just totally kill it...

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Maybe not "about" combat, although it's perhaps the thing you spend the most time doing.

But you know what? Sure, I'll give this one to you. Because if Zelda "is not about combat", then there's effectively no reason to make me constantly swap weapons due to a badly implemented durability system!

There is already so much to take in with the world, if I had to learn dozens of different weapon types and worry about upgrading weapons along with my armor, that's just insane.

So if you don't want to do that, you could just stick with a couple weapons you like and upgrade those instead... The game already expects you to upgrade armor, which is pretty easy to do. I'm not sure why you're balking at the idea of going to the great fairy and spending some resources to get a Royal Claymore +1.

For what it's worth, I have no issue with BoTW's combat.

For what it's worth, I have no issue with combat in practice. I can kill whatever I want just fine. That's not the issue here. The issue is that, for a variety of reasons, the PROCESS of killing things is made vastly less fun by design.

Its combat is more puzzling, which brings it all back to the nature of Zelda, which I love.

Sorry, but no. Generally speaking, the combat is just "hit enemy with stick until enemy dies". There's no grand trick to it, there's no particularly amazing feats you have to pull off.

The player is more than welcome to "get creative" in how they deal with something, but fundamentally that is not required, nor even really encouraged.

There might be a way to make combat interesting with more durable weapons, but you'd have absolutely no incentive to play the game effectively or strategically because your weapons will last longer and you don't need to worry about it.

Right now I have the opposite problem. The game is actively incentivizing me to AVOID combat. I've got a backpack full of good weapons, and I know that bokoblin camp isn't going to give me enough resources to recoup the cost of destroying a decent weapon. So I walk right on by. That's bad design. I should be rewarded for spending time and resources to clear a camp, not actively punished for it!

So when you upgrade from a traveler's sword to a knight's sword to a royal sword, or when you get the champion's weapons like the Lightscale trident, you are literally upgrading your weapon.

And that's great... right up until it breaks and you're back to square one. The upgrades are inherently temporary, and that sucks.

Keep in mind Zelda is NOT intended to be a combat-heavy series, it's supposed to be about the puzzles, the story, and the exploration.

Hard disagree. This is a series about a young hero beating the shit out of an ancient evil, killing dozens of bosses along the way, and leaving a massive corpse pile of monsters in his wake. There are other elements present, but none so front-and-center as the combat. And it's been that way since the beginning. If you were to remove the combat, the entire thing would fall apart.

4 Months ago
Count Dooku

But you know what? Sure, I'll give this one to you. Because if Zelda "is not about combat", then there's effectively no reason to make me constantly swap weapons due to a badly implemented durability system!

Your opinion the combat is ruined by the puzzles, I think it's greatly enhanced. The negative comments are akin to complaining about jumping in Mario. The whole point of Mario is the existence of jumping. The whole point of Zelda is the existence of puzzles.

The game already expects you to upgrade armor, which is pretty easy to do. I'm not sure why you're balking at the idea of going to the great fairy and spending some resources to get a Royal Claymore +1.

It benefits having different armor sets because they have different modifiers and skills, and the upgrades have you searching the land. But if weapons last forever or have very high durability, there's no point in pursuing anything else.

For what it's worth, I have no issue with combat in practice. I can kill whatever I want just fine. That's not the issue here. The issue is that, for a variety of reasons, the PROCESS of killing things is made vastly less fun by design.

Says you! By forcing you to use things other than weapons, the combat encourages experimentation. When you make the weapons more durable, all that goes away.

Sorry, but no. Generally speaking, the combat is just "hit enemy with stick until enemy dies". There's no grand trick to it, there's no particularly amazing feats you have to pull off.

:|

Right now I have the opposite problem. The game is actively incentivizing me to AVOID combat. I've got a backpack full of good weapons, and I know that bokoblin camp isn't going to give me enough resources to recoup the cost of destroying a decent weapon. So I walk right on by. That's bad design. I should be rewarded for spending time and resources to clear a camp, not actively punished for it!

And you do get rewarded. With guts and fangs and horns. If the enemies are high level, you get high level weapons. If they're not, then you won't.

And that's great... right up until it breaks and you're back to square one. The upgrades are inherently temporary, and that sucks.

So, I find I don't go all the way back to square one so quickly. I just go back a little bit. It would take like 10 hours to go all the way back to square one, after which I farm a few more Lynels and Hinox and I'll get an impressive stash once again.

The game doesn't really want you to travel at night. It wants you to go to a stable or town and wait until the next day.

Hard disagree. This is a series about a young hero beating the shit out of an ancient evil, killing dozens of bosses along the way, and leaving a massive corpse pile of monsters in his wake. There are other elements present, but none so front-and-center as the combat. And it's been that way since the beginning. If you were to remove the combat, the entire thing would fall apart.

The phrase "not about the combat" doesn't mean "lol combat is meaningless." It means the focus of the game isn't combat. It's not a hack and slash, it's Zelda. Maybe Link's Awakening and some of Wind Waker felt like hack and slash, but the Zelda I know (TP) is more about puzzles. The combat in TP was very stiff and left a lot to be desired, but the combat here is very fluid and open-ended, allowing you to take so many different kinds of approaches.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

In order to build a good weapon stash, you have to search the land for Hinoxes and Lynels that haven't been defeated before the blood moon.

Sure, but my point is that this is literally not a motivating factor for exploring at this point in the game. I have played about a dozen hours so far, and not once been like, "I'm gonna check that place out because I hope it gives me a good weapon!" Exploration is itself much more of a motivator than the hope of getting a weapon at this stage in the game. If that *were* a main motivator, I'd stop playing this game and say it was a piece of garbage because it would be unbelievably disappointing.

This is one of the most bogus things I think you've ever declared, to be honest. Like, yeah, Zelda isn't *only* about combat. But it is literally *the* central gameplay mechanic of every single Zelda game. It's overwhelmingly what you spend your time doing in most of the games. It's literally why they put bosses in the games. If it's not about combat, then what does it matter if there are 163 weapons in the game? If it's not about combat, then why is it such a problem to you if someone wants to use one sword the whole time?

Yes, the franchise includes more than *just* combat, that is true. Just like Dark Souls isn't *just* combat. Dark Souls is also about exploration and figuring things out on your own. But central to both franchises is the experience of having a weapon, going out into the world, and fighting a bunch of enemies and overcoming bosses on your adventure to save the princess or the world or whatever.

I mean, quite literally, every Zelda game features a pretty key narrative moment where you obtain the Master Sword...so you can fight and kill Ganondorf to save the day.

Not only that, but even in dungeons - which are basically big puzzles - they still always include enemies for you to fight. Because combat is such an intrinsic part of the game that is *the* core gameplay of every. single. Zelda. (Except maybe Wind Waker, in which one could argue sailing is, and that was boring AF.)

There is already so much to take in with the world, if I had to learn dozens of different weapon types and worry about upgrading weapons along with my armor, that's just insane.

I mean, I don't think that would be *that* much more complicated. What exactly is complicated about weapon upgrade systems? Even if other games haven't already been doing all this too (again: see Dark Souls, which has over 120 weapons and also features weapon and armor upgrades), is it really *that* confusing to you if they put in a system where you need to collect X-number of items and then take it to a shop where the smith offers the option to upgrade? I don't know why you're talking about weapons/armor upgrading like it's this unbelievably obtuse mechanic that will just be too difficult for you to understand.

But also not for nothing: the argument wasn't that they *should* include that in the game.

For what it's worth, I have no issue with BoTW's combat.

Yeah, we got that, thanks. I do certainly appreciate that you're approach to this is "well *I* don't have any issues with it, therefore it's not actually an issue at all."

Well, for what it's worth, *I* don't have an issue with the Last of Us not letting players backtrack. So *you're* just wrong in your opinion. And I'm right. Because I didn't have a problem with it.

So we come back to the reason why the weapons break in the first place. It allows us to get comfortable with a simple movement set

Ok, but again, I feel like you're literally not even reading anything I'm writing. Because my whole issue at this point in the game is that they so far break so quickly, it *isn't* allowing me to get comfortable with a simple move set. Because it's *forcing* me to use different weapons that I'm not currently interested in using. Or because the game hasn't dropped enough of the same weapon type so it's not often I can replace a one-handed sword with another one-handed sword if I'm looking to get more experience with that.

This might not be an issue later in the game, but so far in my first 12 hours, it absolutely has been.

Keep in mind Korok seeds are tied to inventory, so if weapons were more durable, we'd lose all the exploration benefits and minigames from Koroks.

You keep saying things like this, but I fail to see how weapons being slightly more durable fundamentally weakens the game at all.

Explain to me how if I can use a weapon I want to use for, say, an hour or over the course of 5 fights in stead of 10 minutes and 2 fights, that ruins the benefits of exploration? Explain this to me like the idiot you clearly think I am. Because it literally makes no sense to me this argument that I won't be interested in exploring if I can actually use a weapon I want for like, 45 minutes instead of 5.

I never liked the combat in past Zelda games.

Ok, but you not liking the combat in past Zelda games doesn't mean that the franchise isn't about combat, or that somehow the combat isn't one of - if not the - most attractive element of the games to everyone else. Because it's literally the most engaging thing you do in any Zelda game, there's no way whatsoever this series would be as popular and iconic as it is if you stripped out combat from the games and just made it a puzzle/exploration game.

There might be a way to make combat interesting with more durable weapons, but you'd have absolutely no incentive to play the game effectively

I'll say two things in response to this: First, this is objectively not true. Tons and tons and tons of video games do combat well without even having *any* degradation system. Again, you can refer to something like Dark Souls. Even if you have the most durable and powerful weapon in the game, you will not be able to just cheese your way through it because the combat system is pretty deep and the game. You can potentially always grind and grind and grind and that will be helpful, but you will always need to learn *something* about the core combat system and become actually familiar and comfortable with it if you want to get through the game. It's wild to me that you seem to think that you *need* to take a player's favorite weapon away from them to incentivize them playing the game "more fully" or "effectively."

But that leads into my second thing, which I've implied a few times here already: for someone who is always railing against the state of video game design, you seem to have such a limited imagination for how to actually design a game. If you think the only way to incentivize players to explore is to take away their weapons constantly, then maybe you don't really understand game design as much as you like to think?

Keep in mind Zelda is NOT intended to be a combat-heavy series, it's supposed to be about the puzzles, the story, and the exploration.

This is objectively not true in the slightest. Every single Zelda game prominently features combat as *the* central gameplay. Yes, it's not *just* about combat. Yes, it is also about exploration (sometimes) and puzzles. And honestly? Zelda is at its worst when it prioritizes story over combat (see: Skyward Sword). You can repeat this nonsense that Zelda is somehow not intended to be a combat-heavy series (which is buck wild when you actually play like, the first 4-5 Zelda games in the franchise...) but Twilight Princess would have been - at best - a mediocre game if the combat weren't actually among the best in the series. Why do you think it is a lot of people dislike having to be the wolf? Why do you think Majora's Mask is sort of divisive in terms of people loving it and hating it? It's because the combat is more fun when you are human.

But I don't know how you can play more than 2 Zelda games and come away arguing that it's not meant to be combat-heavy. Combat - from the franchise's very inception - is what they designed the game to have players do.

Also, if this series really is more about story than about combat, it has to be one of the worst franchises ever. Seriously, no matter how hard they try, they will never get me to care about their overly simplistic narratives. The story has *never* been the draw of Zelda. In fact, you see more people get frustrated when the games do too much talking at players instead of just giving them the context of their adventures and then letting them go.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

So if you don't want to do that, you could just stick with a couple weapons you like and upgrade those instead... The game already expects you to upgrade armor, which is pretty easy to do. I'm not sure why you're balking at the idea of going to the great fairy and spending some resources to get a Royal Claymore +1.

This reminds me of my question I've asked multiple times and has never been addressed:

If another player wants to play differently than you do: so what?

In this above situation, the game would encourage players to upgrade, but not require it. So if you don't want to spend the time to learn the (frankly not that confusing) upgrade mechanics, or can't be bothered to explore to gather materials to do so, you don't *have* to do that. But if you do want to invest in that, you could.

Just like if a player wants to use one sword they get early on and use it the entire game: my question remains: "so what?"

Isn't it always better to give the player the choice? If YOU don't think it sounds fun to play that way (and I'm in that boat; it doesn't sound that fun to me!) then YOU don't HAVE to. But they designed it in such a way that if you did want to play it that way, you literally can't. If someone else wants to play it in a way that you don't personally think sounds that fun: So. What.

And you want to talk about "incentive": where do you factor in the reality that for me, the fact that weapons break so easily at this point has incentivized me running away from most enemies? There will be long stretches where all I do is run and climb and maybe solve a puzzle in a shrine at the end of that traversal period.

You aren't willing to acknowledge that maaaaaybe, just maybe, rapid weapon degradation - at least early in the game when you *should* be fighting things to learn the system - actually just might incentivize players to skip it?

I mean, presumably I'm gonna have to fight something at some point in this game. I imagine there's a final boss at the end of this long road, right? You think I'll be better prepared or worse prepared if I'm constantly avoiding combat situations because I don't want the weapons I like to break yet?

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Right now I have the opposite problem. The game is actively incentivizing me to AVOID combat. I've got a backpack full of good weapons, and I know that bokoblin camp isn't going to give me enough resources to recoup the cost of destroying a decent weapon. So I walk right on by. That's bad design. I should be rewarded for spending time and resources to clear a camp, not actively punished for it!

Yep. Bingo. This happens to me all the time now. I'll literally avoid *doing things* in the game and instead just keep running because I know the reward for those fights isn't going to be worth the loss of certain weapons. Or if I do wind up doing them, I will just use the worst weapons that I don't like because when they break, I don't actually lose anything.

Which, ya know, isn't exactly a glowing example of "fun" in video games to me.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

The whole point of Zelda is the existence of puzzles.

Pray tell: what do players wind up doing the 85% of the game when they're not solving puzzles?

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

The whole point of Mario is the existence of jumping.

Ok, so if they released a Mario game where you only get to jump 5 times in a level, do you think that would be a "good" or "fun" Mario game?

But if weapons last forever or have very high durability, there's no point in pursuing anything else.

Can I just get some acknowledgement from you that you understand we're not really arguing that we want the weapons to last forever? You keep leaning on this statement, but don't seem to recognize that this isn't really what any of us are arguing. Like, I don't think it's *bad* in a massive, exploration action RPG game to allow players to use a weapon the entire game if they want, but this argument that if we're arguing that the way Nintendo did degradation here is flawed and un-fun, we must therefore be arguing that weapons should last forever or have very high durability.

I really don't think you understand this is not what we're arguing... I want to believe you do get that, but you're still responding with this, which definitely makes it seem like you don't understand what it is we're saying.

Says you!

And me. And others.

By forcing you to use things other than weapons, the combat encourages experimentation.

Yeah, see, I don't want to be *forced* to use weapons I don't enjoy using. Can you at least acknowledge that maaaaybe, the "experimentation" in that situation isn't, well, terribly fun?

When you make the weapons more durable, all that goes away.

Can I ask: have you read literally anything any of us have said other than that we don't like the way they do weapon degradation? We have pointed out a number of different ways they could encourage weapon changing *without* degradation.

You say that "all goes away" but I have pointed out at a minimum of two games that have almost as many or many more weapons in them than BotW and in neither example of Dark Souls or Borderlands does the higher durability or lack of degradation entirely cause the desire or necessity to experiment with new weapons "go away."

And you do get rewarded. With guts and fangs and horns.

Not much of a reward at this point in the game, to be honest.

The combat in TP was very stiff and left a lot to be desired

The combat in TP is among the best in the franchise.

but the Zelda I know (TP) is more about puzzles.

I'm now curious: what Zelda do you know?

Actually, this is probably a good place to put our cards on the table here: if we're going to have conversations about what "Zelda is about," how many Zelda games have we each played?

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Like, I don't think it's *bad* in a massive, exploration action RPG game to allow players to use a weapon the entire game if they want

I'll also note: given the way BotW is structured, I really highly doubt you could remove weapon degradation entirely and people would just use the same weapon from start to finish. There are still stats, and there are enemies that are clearly tougher. So why would I use the first sword I come across in a game that I might wind up logging 100+ hours in with tougher and tougher enemies throughout?

I'd actually argue that BotW itself disproves your argument that "all the experimentation goes away" if they remove weapon degradation entirely, never mind just give you a little more time with a weapon or shield.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

By it's nature and its very foundation, The Legend of Zelda is a power fantasy. Yes, it wants you to explore on your adventure, but it was from its very inception a power fantasy. Drop players in this world with a bunch of enemies and an open map. Give them a sword. Tell them to save the Princess.

No one builds power fantasies around solving puzzles. Yes, you've always had to figure things out (and some of them are really very obtuse), but puzzles in the near purest of senses came later in the franchise. And even then, up until Breath of the Wild, when you were solving puzzles in dungeons, you *also* had to fight enemies, and the puzzles always ended with a boss fight. Because again, this series is a power fantasy.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Mariomguy, would it be out of line to ask you to read my posts two or three times before you reply? Because honestly, it seems like you're not understanding half of what I'm saying in the slightest.

For example:

Your opinion the combat is ruined by the puzzles, I think it's greatly enhanced.

Where did I say this? I've said nothing about "combat" being ruined by "puzzles". I dispute that the combat is particularly "puzzle-y" in general, but I have nothing against puzzles.

:|

Again, read what I actually said. I said that at the base level, the combat is just "hit enemy with stick until it dies". That is an objectively true statement for Breath of the Wild. I do not deny that the player can "experiment", exploit various glitches/behaviors such as those shown in the video, or get "creative" in how they approach the combat.

Frankly, compared to previous Zelda games, Breath of the Wild actually asks very little of you when fighting enemies/bosses. You don't HAVE to break their armor, or grapple them so you can hit a specific weak spot. That was -mandatory- behavior in previous Zelda titles for certain enemies/bosses. But you don't even have to do that in BoTW.

And you do get rewarded. With guts and fangs and horns. If the enemies are high level, you get high level weapons. If they're not, then you won't.

The 'guts and fangs and horns' are not a compelling reward beyond the early game. I have something like 97 bokoblin horns already, having done some armor upgrades that also used them.

But you came dangerously close to admitting I have a point here. "If they're not, then you won't." If the enemies aren't high level, you won't get a high level weapon. Therefore, when I'm already using exclusively high level weapons, there's no incentive for me to go fight lower-level enemies. For a game that's about "player freedom", that's a huge problem!

The game doesn't really want you to travel at night. It wants you to go to a stable or town and wait until the next day.

This is not my experience at all, and I can't imagine that's actually what the developers intended either. I've had no issues traveling at night - the skeleton mobs are easily avoided by simply running past them.

(That said, not sure what relevance traveling at night has to any of this...)

It means the focus of the game isn't combat.

The focus of the game is absolutely combat. It's baffling to claim otherwise. I'll echo everything Jet said in his replies about this, because he's absolutely correct.

4 Months ago
Count Dooku

(That said, not sure what relevance traveling at night has to any of this...)

I am still trying to figure out how the "petting" of one dog comes into all of this.

4 Months ago
S.O.H.

Sure, but my point is that this is literally not a motivating factor for exploring at this point in the game.\

No, you're just at the beginning. Later on farming good enemies for better weapons will be your reason to keep visiting certain locations.

This is one of the most bogus things I think you've ever declared, to be honest. Like, yeah, Zelda isn't *only* about combat. But it is literally *the* central gameplay mechanic of every single Zelda game.

It's like saying Mario is all about the power ups. Sure, the power ups are really cool and add a lot to the game, but the core element of Mario is the platforming and player controls. You can't say the game would be better if the power ups are stronger, that's not the point. Also, making the power ups stronger would break the game in other ways. That's where I feel the durability discussion is getting to. People just want to do something a certain way and blame the game when they can't. It's something else entirely to play the game and judge it on its own merits.

I mean, I don't think that would be *that* much more complicated. What exactly is complicated about weapon upgrade systems? Even if other games haven't already been doing all this too (again: see Dark Souls, which has over 120 weapons and also features weapon and armor upgrades), is it really *that* confusing to you if they put in a system where you need to collect X-number of items and then take it to a shop where the smith offers the option to upgrade?

Right now you get rewarded with excellent weapons for completing certain tasks. Those weapons are already OP, and it's a good thing they break because otherwise the game would be even more broken than it already is. You actually can "upgrade" rusty weapons and reset durability by letting the octoroks suck them in... but if you want to upgrade weapons, I just don't see a way to do that in the current game structure so it makes sense. Maybe providing gems to a blacksmith and a lower-grade weapon can get you a better version of that weapon... but that already exists with the Champions weapons, which you conveniently never mention. The thing you want is already in the game, you just didn't find it yet.

Explain to me how if I can use a weapon I want to use for, say, an hour or over the course of 5 fights in stead of 10 minutes and 2 fights, that ruins the benefits of exploration?

For starters, when you get good weapons there won't be a need to fight any battles because you already have excellent weapons. And when you do there's no need to try anything else, use bows, etc. because your weapons do everything for you. There's no benefit from icing or experimentation, and in the late game you will lose all motivation to farm better weapons and the extra weapons in shrines would be meaningless.

I'm playing the game optimally: freeze an enemy, then use a high-powered weapon to deal triple damage. Sneakstrike whenever possible. Use Urbosa's fury and bomb arrows for large camps. Attack modifiers. I don't have a problem with the weapon damage system like you do. Like I said, my weapons last too long. I keep getting good ones and having to leave them behind. You'll experience this in the late game, after you get the Master Sword and farm the royal/Lynel/ancient++ weapons.

I think I've talked about combat enough, I've repeated the same thing for the fifth time now.

But I don't know how you can play more than 2 Zelda games and come away arguing that it's not meant to be combat-heavy. Combat - from the franchise's very inception - is what they designed the game to have players do.

Here's a few questions to ponder:

1 - If a Zelda game was made without any combat, only had puzzles, dungeons, and sidequests, and you didn't get the master sword until the very end only to face off Ganon, would it still be recognizable as a Zelda game?
2 - If a Zelda game was made without any puzzles exploration, or sidequests and only had an endless string of combat, would it still be recognizable as a Zelda game? More or less so than the version without combat?

I've already made up my mind. Zelda without combat is still inherently Zelda because the game is not about the combat, but the world, the story, the dungeons, and the puzzles. But a game without any of those things and just the combat is not Zelda. Combat in Wind Waker and TP was basically swing a sword a couple times to get past enemies. Some boss fights and minibosses were a bit more interesting, but not by much. A combat-only Zelda is just not recognizable.

If another player wants to play differently than you do: so what?

It's not how I want to play vs. how you want to play. Imagine if someone decided they were going to play GTA without stealing cars, and then complain the map is too big and isn't fun. Well, that's not the game's fault. If you want a game where the whole point is hack and slash, Zelda isn't it. But there are ways to improve weapon durability, figuring this stuff out IS the game. Take that away, and you've just bypassed the dozens of mechanics that actually make the combat so much more interesting than beating enemies to death with a shiny stick.

Isn't it always better to give the player the choice?

No. I always want to fly in every Mario game I can, but that usually breaks the game. I don't get upset at the fact that I can't fly, because that loss is what makes the game possible. If you just give the player everything they want, they'll never succeed.

Actually, this is probably a good place to put our cards on the table here: if we're going to have conversations about what "Zelda is about," how many Zelda games have we each played?

Well, I played Wind Waker, TP, and BoTW. Sunk about 100 hours in TP, 160+ hours in BoTW. But that's not the point. If Zelda were truly about combat, it would play more like a hack-and-slash. There wouldn't be a need for dungeons with like one spider crawling on a wall and switches in a room to change the water level, or puzzles with literally no enemies to fight. The puzzle aspect is more important than the combat. In previous Zeldas the combat just got in the way of the puzzles. But in this game I feel the puzzling nature of Zelda has actually been integrated into the combat properly. It's still open-ended so if you want to keep whacking enemies, destroying your weapons, and getting new ones, you can. But you can do dozens of things to save your weapons and take advantage of the systems.

No one builds power fantasies around solving puzzles. Yes, you've always had to figure things out (and some of them are really very obtuse), but puzzles in the near purest of senses came later in the franchise. And even then, up until Breath of the Wild, when you were solving puzzles in dungeons, you *also* had to fight enemies, and the puzzles always ended with a boss fight. Because again, this series is a power fantasy.

Wow. This is not the right idea at all. Paper Mario is more of a power fantasy than Zelda. Link does get stronger weapons as the game goes on, but consider TP: he doesn't get any more powerful, he just gets more hearts and tools/abilities. So the new abilities allow him to do things and explore areas he couldn't before. But in BoTW especially, strategy is SUPER important, but the game is open-ended to accept any solution, no matter how efficient it is. I have a friend who has an entire inventory of healing items, and absolutely no power-boosters. Nevermind you get a 50% power boost from an attack+++ meal, or an 80% boost from the ancient weapons and armor set. He didn't even bother upgrading his armor beyond 1-2 stars and beat most of the game that way.

In BoTW, Link isn't any stronger at the end of the game than he is at the start. If you head off the plateau, cook enough razer shrooms, and manage to take down a high-level enemy, you'll have the same attack power as being fully upgraded on 100% completion. But without the hearts and upgraded armor, it's just harder. And without having those options, you can't take advantage of every scenario you'll face. At its core, Zelda isn't a power fantasy, it's a bunch of open-ended problems that will accept any solution that works.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Where did I say this? I've said nothing about "combat" being ruined by "puzzles". I dispute that the combat is particularly "puzzle-y" in general, but I have nothing against puzzles.

Anyone who argues for better weapons durability is basically saying this: I want my crappy weapon to last longer when I beat enemies. They don't want to experiment with attack modifiers, or better armor, or elementals, or sneaking, or weakspots, or critical hits, or bows, or arrows, or magnesis, stasis, explosives, you name it. They just want their crappy weapons to last longer when they battle in a very ineffective way. And that does so much more to break the game than to fix it.

Frankly, compared to previous Zelda games, Breath of the Wild actually asks very little of you when fighting enemies/bosses. You don't HAVE to break their armor, or grapple them so you can hit a specific weak spot. That was -mandatory- behavior in previous Zelda titles for certain enemies/bosses. But you don't even have to do that in BoTW.

It's open ended, so if you're OK with breaking your weapons and always taking the weapon of the next enemy you fight, you can. You don't always have to make it an ordeal. I use Urbosa's Fury and bomb arrows if I'm just not in the mood for a real battle. I'm glad it's not mandatory. But if the weapons last longer, then there's no incentive to do or try anything else than just beat-with-stick.

The 'guts and fangs and horns' are not a compelling reward beyond the early game. I have something like 97 bokoblin horns already, having done some armor upgrades that also used them.

Yeah, in the late game the only good thing you get from Bokoblins (the white ones) are gems. The weak ones might give you arrows, but typically not much more arrows than you would use in the fight anyways.

But you came dangerously close to admitting I have a point here. "If they're not, then you won't." If the enemies aren't high level, you won't get a high level weapon. Therefore, when I'm already using exclusively high level weapons, there's no incentive for me to go fight lower-level enemies. For a game that's about "player freedom", that's a huge problem!

Is there an RPG that rewards you for going back in an early level and crushing little enemies? Paper Mario stops giving you EXP if you go back several chapters behind. Your incentive to go to lower-level areas is to farm specific parts or Korok seeds or visit certain people/complete certain sidequests. If you engage low-level enemies, that's on you. But most bokoblin camps in the end game will have white ones that have more HP and give gems, which is a pretty good reward. Not effective for farming, but you can make a pretty penny.

This is not my experience at all, and I can't imagine that's actually what the developers intended either. I've had no issues traveling at night - the skeleton mobs are easily avoided by simply running past them.

True. But the whole concept of the stables being a safe haven, having a bed to sleep in overnight, the fact that you can't farm guts and your weapons take a beating from the reanimated skeletons, it can be a good idea to light a fire and wait out the night, or if you're close enough to a stable or town stay at an inn. Late game now, I find myself trying to avoid night travel to make it less annoying.

I am still trying to figure out how the "petting" of one dog comes into all of this.

If you played the game, it seems like you can do anything you want, short of petting the dog. The way the director described it, it's like you'd have to be able to pet everything in the game in order to make an additional command like that useful. And he said he's gotten ideas from that feedback and is considering it for BoTW 2. So when people talked about weapons durability in BoTW 2, I'm trying to think what the director might decide to change if you can show compassion to enemies. It seems you can feed bokoblins now and they might leave you alone. It would be awesome if they took that concept further.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

If you played the game, it seems like you can do anything you want, short of petting the dog. The way the director described it, it's like you'd have to be able to pet everything in the game in order to make an additional command like that useful. And he said he's gotten ideas from that feedback and is considering it for BoTW 2. So when people talked about weapons durability in BoTW 2, I'm trying to think what the director might decide to change if you can show compassion to enemies. It seems you can feed bokoblins now and they might leave you alone. It would be awesome if they took that concept further.

4 Months ago
S.O.H.

If you have a point, it might be easier to say it. Your pictures don't make any sense.

In Kirby Super Star, you could inhale and spit out any enemy with a special ability, and it would become your partner. It would fighting other enemies alongside you. I've always questioned why more games don't let you do stuff like this.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

It's like saying Mario is all about the power ups.

You're making such a dramatic false equivalence that I honestly don't think you get it. Power ups are a big part of Mario, but it's not the bulk of the central gameplay. Combat in Zelda games is literally essential to the game. Taking power-ups out of Mario impacts it negatively, but the core gameplay remains intact. Remove combat from Zelda, you don't have a Zelda game.

No, you're just at the beginning. Later on farming good enemies for better weapons will be your reason to keep visiting certain locations.

So...do you understand that telling me that *eventually* this thing is potentially going to motivate me in a way it doesn't in the first 12+ hours hasn't, maybe isn't really the convincing argument you maybe think it is?

That's where I feel the durability discussion is getting to. People just want to do something a certain way and blame the game when they can't.

I mean, I genuinely don't think you understand what any of us is actually saying to you. But also, I don't think it's *that* unreasonable that one of those things I want to do in the game is...use a weapon in a capacity that lets me learn its move sets, get familiar with combat, and have fun. That sounds unreasonable to you?

It's something else entirely to play the game and judge it on its own merits.

I am judging it on its own merit. I have spent an excessive amount of time explaining to you why what the game is doing isn't working particularly well. I have *also* noted - again several times - that I don't think the game is overall bad.

The thing you want is already in the game, you just didn't find it yet.

Can you acknowledge that I've never actually said that I want upgrading weapons in the game? The weapon upgrading stuff was in regards to the notion that you made that there just is no other way to get players to experiment with weaponry if you don't *force* them to experiment with weaponry.

For starters, when you get good weapons there won't be a need to fight any battles because you already have excellent weapons.

Oh good! Sounds like I can save a lot of time and just not bother playing the game!

And when you do there's no need to try anything else, use bows, etc. because your weapons do everything for you.

Ok, we're at the point where you're deliberately not listening to anything we've said.

1 - If a Zelda game was made without any combat, only had puzzles, dungeons, and sidequests, and you didn't get the master sword until the very end only to face off Ganon, would it still be recognizable as a Zelda game?

Nope.

2 - If a Zelda game was made without any puzzles exploration, or sidequests and only had an endless string of combat, would it still be recognizable as a Zelda game? More or less so than the version without combat?

Not necessarily, but it'd be more recognizable than if you didn't get a sword.

You're right that it's not *just* about combat, but combat is *the* central gameplay mechanic of every single Zelda game released on consoles. It is without question *the* most common activity players engage in. You want both to make a Zelda game, but you would have more success making a Zelda game without puzzles than a Zelda game without combat. Because again, from its very inception, the entire premise of the game was a power fantasy. Drop players into this world. Give them a sword. And go out and explore. If combat were not fundamentally central to what makes a Zelda game, they would not make it so important that you get a weapon from the start.

Still laughing that you called us stubborn...

Well, I played Wind Waker, TP, and BoTW.

Ok, so this is pretty telling. You played THREE Zelda games and feel like you're the authority on what makes a Zelda game a Zelda game?

In previous Zeldas the combat just got in the way of the puzzles

In virtually every single Zelda game, including Breath of the Wild, combat comes well before the first puzzle/dungeons.

I want to be clear about what I'm saying here, not that you'll read it or understand it, but I think both are pretty key elements to what makes something a Zelda game. I think Zelda without puzzles would work a little better than a Zelda without combat, but I don't really want either. That said, the *central gameplay* of *every single Zelda game* has been, is, and always will be combat. That is overwhelmingly the activity that players spend the most of their time doing. Even in dungeons solving puzzles, you're going to have to fight stuff.

Wow. This is not the right idea at all.

If you're so far gone that you can't even admit a basic reality like Zelda being a power fantasy (as almost all video games are), or even acknowledge that the core development of *every* Zelda game is drop players into a world, give them a sword, and tell them to save the Princess or the World and that somehow that isn't a power fantasy because "Link doesn't physically get stronger," I don't know what to tell ya. You're objectively wrong and proving only that you don't understand these concepts when you say things like this.

But if it helps you (it won't, but just in case): Call of Duty is a power fantasy game too. You get even less to improve your chances in those games than in Zelda games, but it's still a power fantasy. I'm happy to explain why this is if you genuinely want to know, but my guess is you can't be bothered to admit that you don't know what a power fantasy is. (Which is fine if you don't know! But it's annoying to claim you do, then go off and explain it in a way that makes it clear you have no idea, actually.)

In BoTW, Link isn't any stronger at the end of the game than he is at the start.

I think this is pretty funny that you say this, then immediately talk about how almost certainly, players are going to increase their health, their stamina, get new tools, stronger armor, and better weapons, and somehow that doesn't equate to you as Link as a video game character "getting stronger." But also, that isn't the point when we describe games as a "power fantasy."

Anyone who argues for better weapons durability is basically saying this: I want my crappy weapon to last longer when I beat enemies.

I'm going to go in all caps here because you're being unbelievably frustrating: CAN YOU PLEASE FUCKING READ WHAT ANY OF US ARE SAYING HERE? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE????

CAN YOU READ ANY OF THE EIGHT MILLION TIMES I'VE EXPLAINED WHY I HAVE AN ISSUE RIGHT NOW WITH THE WAY DURABILITY WORKS THUS FAR AND WHY IT IS NEGATIVELY IMPACTING MY ABILITY TO FULLY ENJOY THIS GAME WITHOUT MAKING SHIT UP ABOUT WHAT - TO YOU - I'M "BASICALLY SAYING"???

You say "people who are complaining are basically saying..." and the completely, dishonestly, and disingenuously get wrong what it is I have specifically said multiple times now.

They don't want to experiment with attack modifiers, or better armor, or elementals, or sneaking, or weakspots, or critical hits, or bows, or arrows, or magnesis, stasis, explosives, you name it.

Hi. Yeah, listen, I know I'm one of several people you're ignorantly and arrogantly arguing with, but can you maybe actually spend five minutes to read anything I have said? You're literally lying to me about what I said I want.

You are both deliberately misinterpreting almost everything I've said, dishonestly reflected what I've said, or just straight up ignored everything I've said, and it's pretty annoying.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

So...do you understand that telling me that *eventually* this thing is potentially going to motivate me in a way it doesn't in the first 12+ hours hasn't, maybe isn't really the convincing argument you maybe think it is?

I want to just be clear about something here: I do think BotW is fairly good so far at encouraging exploration. Because I have learned after 12+ hours of playing not to put much stock in what weapons I get, I'm not ever going to be motivated to explore an area in the hope of obtaining a new, better weapon. That doesn't mean I have no motivation for exploring. If anything, I think their world design is in and of itself intrinsically better at motivating exploration than trying to find weapons. (If that were the case, I'd probably stop playing BotW because that sounds so boring to me and like such a slog.)

I appreciate that there are times you are rewarded with material goods in the game for exploring. But 12+ hours in, none of that is the driving motivator for me. So telling me that they *need* to deny me time with a weapon before I can tell if I like it or not or really get comfortable with a core element of the gameplay, because they don't think I'll explore otherwise, actually tells me that you think they were pretty insecure about the design of their game.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

That's where I feel the durability discussion is getting to. People just want to do something a certain way and blame the game when they can't.

I kinda have this problem with D&D, too. But I think the thing that makes it especially frustrating in BotW is in the lead up to playing this game, everyone talked to me about this game and how great it is that it just lets you do what you wanna do. So when I popped it in and it turns out, one of the few things it *doesn't* let you do is use a weapon you might enjoy for more than two fights, I think it's fair to be disappointed that this game that otherwise gives me almost total freedom to do what I want, constantly removes me of a fundamental choice that almost every RPG game of this kind has given me.

And yes, I do think it's fair to say, "Well you're early." That's why I called this "early impressions." But I also think it's fair to say that if I put in 12+ hours into the game and am still having this element that isn't particularly conducive to the "fun" element of the game, that's maybe not the most perfect system we've ever seen in a video game.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

If you have a point, it might be easier to say it. Your pictures don't make any sense.

im as excited as a possum stuck in a mailbox at the prospect of petting things in the sequel lol.

4 Months ago
S.O.H.

People just want to do something a certain way and blame the game when they can't. It's something else entirely to play the game and judge it on its own merits.

Yeah guys, learn to swing your sword the right way!! And judge the game on its own merits except the merit that annoys you!

4 Months ago
Q

New thing I found that I really don't like - but fortunately doesn't come up often (except I'm dealing with this crap now):

Why on earth would they have a motion-control element ever? I'm doing a shrine right now that has one of those like...ya know those games you get at Cracker Barrel where it's like, a bunch of silver balls and you gotta twist and turn the case to try and move the balls into little divets?

Yeah, that's apparently in this game for a shrine. There was another time in which the game gave me a prompt to tilt the controller/Switch, and I don't know why they insist sometimes on these games serving as tech demos sometimes. This isn't as egregious as Skyward Sword, and it's such a small part of the game, but, demanding I tilt a controller is always going to be garbage.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Doesn't help that the physics are kinda all over the place in this game. Sometimes it's really good and impressive. Sometimes it's straight garbo.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

I typed a huge thing and it all got deleted... dammit.

If you use modifiers, elementals, your bows, the champions' abilities, the sheikah slate abilities, expand inventory giving korok seeds to hetsu, etc. your weapons will last a lot longer and you'll be able to keep a stash of the best ones. Any change to the durability system would require radically changing the way the game works fundamentally, and making the weapons last longer would encourage people to spam Y (the attack button) rather than try anything else. Early on the weapons are less durable, but as you advance the weapons do get better. And at any point you can cook food to increase attack. The game provides dozens of strategies besides spamming Y, but some people just want to spam Y and are upset when their weapons break after facing off a dozen enemies (which would all drop their weapons in return). So where some people complain about the weapons system... I don't see an issue. In fact, I noticed throughout during my experience the weapons last TOO long, and I ended up having to throw away hundreds of royal swords, high-level elementals, top-end ancient gear because I already had a perfect inventory. I always have a perfect inventory, I didn't even need to farm to do it. I just needed to play the game.

Jet just really likes complaining about minor nuisances with big paragraphs :\ And honestly, pretty much everything he's complaining about has never been a problem for me. The puzzles in the divine beasts, the combat, the hunting and foraging, the cooking, upgrading armor, the main story, sidequests, the open world, the openness in general, it all lends itself to experimentation, and it's all great. I wouldn't change a thing. Improve resolution, framerate, and some texture quality. That's all.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Sometimes it's straight garbo.

Was there ever any gossip that Greta was lesbian? And how did she get involved in a computer game anyway?

4 Months ago
chiarizio

So where some people complain about the weapons system... I don't see an issue.

Ok, but are you also just not capable of comprehending something unless you personally feel that way? Several of us at this point have spent a bonkers amount of time explaining why it is that we do have an issue, and you just say, "Well I didn't have an issue with it" and tell us we're wrong. Like, I don't personally think this game is as impressive as everyone says that it is. I have a number of issues with it outside the weapon degradation system, too. But even though I don't *personally* feel this game is the best thing ever (I don't even think it's the best Zelda game at this point, to be honest, but I'm withholding making a personally definitive statement since I'm still fairly early), I even said that I can understand why it is that others do feel that way. Because I don't *personally* need to feel something to understand where other people are coming from or understand what people are clearly telling me their experience with the game is.

Like I love Dark Souls 2, but I definitely understand why people think it's one of the weaker installments in the studio's repertoire. I don't personally need to feel something myself to understand how other people might feel. I don't really get why you're incapable of at least acknowledging what people who think differently than you are saying and even just saying, "Yeah, I mean, I think these things, but I can see why you'd feel this is a little frustrating. But here are some tips that might help."

Jet just really likes complaining about minor nuisances with big paragraphs :\ And honestly, pretty much everything he's complaining about has never been a problem for me.

This is once again you openly admitting that you have not spent any time actually reading anything that I've written. Or actually, as you continue to prove, you lack the ability to understand things.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Early on the weapons are less durable, but as you advance the weapons do get better. And at any point you can cook food to increase attack

Can we then talk about pacing? Or are you going to deliberately misrepresent what I'm saying there too? (Who am I kidding. You're not even going to understand my comments.)

I've logged now almost 15 hours of gameplay, and none of what you're saying helps out has actually really come to fruition yet in my playthrough. I'm not saying this is *bad* design, because it's just different. But one of the cons of being so open is that you don't have as tight control over pacing as in other games with a little more focus or guidance. So you keep telling me that these things occur throughout the game that help ease some of the things I'm not enjoying at this stage in the game. And I don't doubt you on that! But...how many hours do I have to play before they come up? If I'm not loving a system in the first 20 hours of the game, and those things that could help don't pop up until later still, maybe they could shrink what you can do early on just a li'l bit? There are plenty of pros to being so open, but one of the cons is that it can take much longer for those elements to get introduced. So everyone keeps telling me that this thing that is causing me to not much care for the core gameplay get better over time. But I keep putting in hours and that hasn't really happened yet. And if I have to play 50 hours before the game gets genuinely great, then maybe there's a little flaw with being too open too early? (Which then goes back to my issue I had with them not totally nailing a tutorial section at the beginning. It's not the worst tutorial I've ever played - not even the worst tutorial I've seen in a Zelda game - but it is a little incomplete and inadequate.)

The game provides dozens of strategies besides spamming Y, but some people just want to spam Y and are upset when their weapons break after facing off a dozen enemies

This is objectively not what anyone is saying they want to do. What I *like* about the combat in BotW is that - at least at this point - it doesn't feel like you just spam the attack button. It definitely feels like a deeper combat system (*without* weapon degradation) than almost every Zelda game that's come before it. Honestly, I think it actually says more about you that you seem to think if a game doesn't force you to use different weapons, then the only way that combat system could work is that you just spam the attack button. Again, there are plenty of games in existence where the combat is so deep that even if you did just have one weapon the entire game, combat isn't reduced to just pressing the attack button and that's it. (You really do seem to lack much imagination for what games can do for someone who feels so strongly that games should be designed a certain way.)

If the above is your take-away of what my criticism of the weapon degradation system is, I don't know what to tell ya. But you're definitely nowhere near as smart as you think you are if that's what you're taking away from my comments.

I mean, you have only just *barely* begun to even acknowledge that I'm not even saying I don't want degradation in the game. But that at this point in the game, I'd like to have a liiiittle more time. You dismiss my complaint - which has continually come up in my first 15 hours of gameplay - as just complaining about a minor "nuisance," when I'm literally sitting here telling you that this "minor nuisance" constantly every time I wind up in a battle, which is fairly frequently in the game.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

RE: Story though. I'm curious to see what Zelda fans think:

Are there Zelda games in which you get genuinely invested in the story?

I know for me, personally, the more annoyed I get with these games tends to be the more they try to force a story to be front and center. It's not that I don't like most of the games' stories. It's just that it's so clearly not the draw of a Zelda game to me. It's not exactly like these stories are particularly deep or complex. They're all pretty basic and simplistic, because it really is just serving as the backdrop for the gameplay, right? This is true from its very inception. The "story" inasmuch as it exists is just that Ganon got the princess, and you find this sword, and you gotta go save her. This more or less is the basic premise of every Zelda game. By the N-64/GameCube era, they start working in things like "destiny" and "prophesy," but more or less it still ultimately boils down to, you're Link, Ganon captures the princess or threatens the world, you get a sword, you're the only one that can stop him.

They'll add some deeper world-building, but that's pretty much the basic premise of every single Zelda game. What I appreciate about BotW thus far on this front is that outside a small number of cutscenes, it hasn't really been terribly interested in pushing a story. (Which is good, because I really don't think you *can* get me to invest in a game's story if the game is also open world - Ghost of Tsushima is as close as it got, and even that fell apart for me because of its open world nature.) This is such a contrast to something like Skyward Sword that was sooooo dialogue heavy that I found it borderline unplayable (the motion controls confirmed that). But I definitely felt this way playing Wind Waker and Twilight Princess: I tune out when they start doing exposition dumps because they're just never going to get me to care about a story in one of these games. They'd have to do a pretty untraditional structure or story to get me to even pay attention.

So I'm curious: for other fans of the series, do you tend to feel invested in Zelda stories? Is there a Zelda game with a story you particularly like?

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Are there Zelda games in which you get genuinely invested in the story?

Generally not, beyond it just being my 'objective' for winning the game. I tend to get invested in the characters and their individual stories, but the whole 'defeat ancient evil and rescue princess' plot doesn't do a lot for me.

For that reason, it's probably unsurprising that Twilight Princess was my favorite game story-wise. I'm largely past being able to recall specifics, but I recall being pretty invested in Midna's journey.

Majora's Mask and Wind Waker also have some interesting stuff going on for them, both character wise and for the "world", but the basic storyline is still the same as it is in the other games.

Breath of the Wild actually has a fair bit of character stuff going on that I find interesting (once you actually manage to find memories or reach certain quest points), but it's very disjointed (since you might go hours between story/character beats). Ironically it reminds me a lot of Dark Souls, in that the game kind of lays story breadcrumbs everywhere and it's up to you to piece things together and 'fill in the gaps' with your own headcanon. And as you say, this lets you ignore the story if you just don't care.

I do think it's kind of a bummer that Zelda is often basically a non-character. Wind Waker was the most I ever really "cared" about her, and that was because she actually had something resembling a character arc. From what I recall Skyward Sword tried a bit harder with Zelda too, but that game is a dumpster fire on multiple levels.

Seems like there's all sorts of cool things they could do with Ganon, too, if they ever gave him a motivation that isn't just 'being evil'/'taking over the world'. Wind Waker's portrayal of him actually has a lot (relatively speaking) going on for it.

4 Months ago
Count Dooku

And honestly, pretty much everything he's complaining about has never been a problem for me.

Mariomguy, we've had many dead-end converstations like this in the past. If you were to stop being so self-absorbed you'd realize that just because your opinion is different from someone else's it doesn't make them wrong.

4 Months ago
Q

Ok, but are you also just not capable of comprehending something unless you personally feel that way? Several of us at this point have spent a bonkers amount of time explaining why it is that we do have an issue, and you just say, "Well I didn't have an issue with it" and tell us we're wrong.

It's like someone complaining about jumping in Mario. It's not just I don't have an issue with it, it's I don't even see how it can be an issue in the first place. Even if you spam Y, you get weapons every time you beat an enemy, so you won't just run out of weapons. And there are a million things you can do to make your inventory last longer. Any way you slice it, the only problem is you just don't like it. Throw a broken weapon in the face, it does 4x damage.

This is objectively not what anyone is saying they want to do. What I *like* about the combat in BotW is that - at least at this point - it doesn't feel like you just spam the attack button. It definitely feels like a deeper combat system (*without* weapon degradation) than almost every Zelda game that's come before it. Honestly, I think it actually says more about you that you seem to think if a game doesn't force you to use different weapons, then the only way that combat system could work is that you just spam the attack button. Again, there are plenty of games in existence where the combat is so deep that even if you did just have one weapon the entire game, combat isn't reduced to just pressing the attack button and that's it. (You really do seem to lack much imagination for what games can do for someone who feels so strongly that games should be designed a certain way.)

OK. I like everything about the combat. Not sure what kind of constructive conversation we can have regarding combat. I think that should be shelved.

I've logged now almost 15 hours of gameplay, and none of what you're saying helps out has actually really come to fruition yet in my playthrough.

This is really strange. Do you have Urbosa's Fury? The Master Sword? Are you farming Lynels and Hinox's to get the best weapons? Did you expand your inventory to at least 15 slots? Are you taking advantage of the Lizfalos weapons? Are you cooking and using attack boosters? How exactly are you approaching the combat?

I mean, you have only just *barely* begun to even acknowledge that I'm not even saying I don't want degradation in the game. But that at this point in the game, I'd like to have a liiiittle more time. You dismiss my complaint - which has continually come up in my first 15 hours of gameplay - as just complaining about a minor "nuisance," when I'm literally sitting here telling you that this "minor nuisance" constantly every time I wind up in a battle, which is fairly frequently in the game.

This hasn't been my experience at all, so IDK what you're talking about. Yeah, if you use one poor quality weapon to take down an entire bokoblin camp it will break. But then you will get 5 new weapons. If you want the weapon to last longer, use arrows. Use bombs. Do something else. Making the weapons more durable would just improve the experience for Y spammers and there'd be no incentive to try anything else. This is the game.

Are there Zelda games in which you get genuinely invested in the story?

Yes! Though I don't have extensive experience with Zelda's story, TP told an incredible story, and I was very invested in it. Midna, Ilia, the fact that you were a farm boy in the middle of no-where who happened to be the chosen one, Zant, etc. the story was actually a tremendous highlight of the experience. The biggest criticism of Zelda is the princess herself isn't really fleshed out, which I feel they did a great job fixing in BoTW. Though it kind of sucks the story revolves around her finding her power, which doesn't manifest itself until you end up at the fight and she supplies the bow of light and arrows for it (like other games), playing through the main story and recovering the memories was fantastic. I also like the fact that they're memories, not a current story: you can grab the memories in any order. I like that they had a very specific linear experience with the Zoras so you still get the experience of a strong linear narrative, but the game at large is still very open and non-linear, and the story from there can progress in a very non-linear way.

Mariomguy, we've had many dead-end converstations like this in the past. If you were to stop being so self-absorbed you'd realize that just because your opinion is different from someone else's it doesn't make them wrong.

I mean, he's literally complaining the weapons break every fight. That's something that shouldn't happen unless you're always grabbing the weakest, least durable weapons, ignore everything else, and just spam Y. When a weapon breaks you grab one on the floor or switch it out for a different one. But yeah, combat is all about that pause time in the inventory. You're supposed to take advantage of the game's systems. If you don't or you don't want to, IDK what to tell you. So let me repeat the same suggestions I already mentioned before, once again, because everyone seems to keep harping that I'm not hearing them when it's obvious they're not hearing me:

- Use the Master Sword and bows to save on weapons.
- Elemental arrows are more powerful than regular ones.
- Use Stasis, bombs, and magnesis, if you can.
- Use Urbosa's Fury will decimate any fight, especially large camps and monsters.
- Attacks to a critical area, like the face, do 2x damage
- Throwing a weapon does 2x damage
- Final strike with weapon before it breaks does 2x damage
So - If you throw a sword to the face and it breaks, that's 8x damage in one hit!
- +++Attack modifier (cooking 5 bananas or razer shrooms) does 1.5x damage.
- Ancient weapons with the ancient armor set does 1.8x damage.
- Use ice arrows to freeze an enemy, then hit them with the strongest single attack you can for 3x damage in one hit (ideally use two-handed sword or bombs)
- Sneakstrike does 8x damage, and they don't need to be sleeping to work. Strike Lizfalos from behind, their tails.
- Always pick up weapons that have better durability. Weapons from enemies are all new, that's a good chance to update your inventory.
- Eldin mountain Octoroks will suck in weapons and spit them back out with full durability. Rusty weapons will transform to their clean versions.

And there are even more strategies to consider. Monsters won't attack if you wear their mask and walk past. I think you can also give them food to leave you alone. And you don't need to take on any fight you don't want to. So if the biggest issue in BoTW is weapons break... give me a break. The only way to make a sword break that fast is spam Y. There are dozens of other strategies out there, and they're all better than spamming Y. Play the game, literally do anything else besides spam Y, and this won't be an issue.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Ironically it reminds me a lot of Dark Souls, in that the game kind of lays story breadcrumbs everywhere and it's up to you to piece things together and 'fill in the gaps' with your own headcanon.

Yeah. There's a lot about BotW that is reminding me of Dark Souls. Which kinda makes sense. Feels kinda like a feedback loop because Dark Souls is very clearly influenced by Zelda, too.

While I love watching VaatiVidya's deep diving into the lore of Dark Souls, that's another series where just...you're *never* going to get me to care about the story. The world is cool. I like some characters I run into. I like the environmental story-telling. But it's so clearly not the draw of the game. (And to be fair, it's not their focus as designers either. Didn't From Software once do a contest where they'd give someone some reward if they could like, describe the story of the game?)

it's probably unsurprising that Twilight Princess was my favorite game story-wise. I'm largely past being able to recall specifics, but I recall being pretty invested in Midna's journey.

For sure. I liked Midna quite a bit, even though that thread went pretty much exactly where I thought it would. But it was still largely well done and I felt invested in her as a character. But still, the strength of every Zelda game is going to be the game play, not the story. I'm invested in a Zelda game because it's fun (unless it's Skyward Sword or the end of Wind Waker).

Majora's Mask was probably the most interesting in terms of narrative elements because of some kinda messed up, darker and more twisted implications. They never really call too much attention to it, but I remember being like, "Wait...I'm...wearing these masks and taking on the embodiment of dead people???" And then meeting that dead person's friends and they're just like, "Wait, what? You're him, but you're not!"

I do think it's kind of a bummer that Zelda is often basically a non-character. Wind Waker was the most I ever really "cared" about her, and that was because she actually had something resembling a character arc. From what I recall Skyward Sword tried a bit harder with Zelda too, but that game is a dumpster fire on multiple levels.

Completely agreed. I want *so badly* to care about Zelda as a character, but they've just never been able to make that happen. And it's not that I *hate* her or anything. She's...fine... Mostly she's just a nothing character, or the goal, right? She has an actual personality in Wind Waker and Skyward Sword. But also just by nature, she has to disappear for *huge* chunks of the games. WW especially was frustrating when they basically revealed she's the princess, and once they did that, they forced her to sit on the sidelines. They done did her nasty in that game.

Seems like there's all sorts of cool things they could do with Ganon, too, if they ever gave him a motivation that isn't just 'being evil'/'taking over the world'.

Can I ask: is there any reason why sometimes he's Ganon, and sometimes he's Ganondorf? Or are those somehow different characters? I feel like I missed something somewhere. (Although I know that the games don't *actually* have a real continuity and they just do whatever each game.)

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

I mean, he's literally complaining the weapons break every fight. That's something that shouldn't happen unless you're always grabbing the weakest, least durable weapons, ignore everything else, and just spam Y.

I don’t know what version of Breath of the Wild you are playing, but early in the game all you get is crappy weapons. Even if you grab every weapon you can find, they still are crappy. It’s only as you progress in the game where you kill a certain amount of enemies and build you hearts/stamina up does the game start rewarding you with weapons that have better stats.

4 Months ago
Q

VaatiVidya's

thats a name I have not heard in years.

4 Months ago
S.O.H.

He's still making stuff, and it's still pretty good. It's pretty much the only way I know anything about any lore in Dark Souls, ha.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

I don’t know what version of Breath of the Wild you are playing, but early in the game all you get is crappy weapons. Even if you grab every weapon you can find, they still are crappy.

Early in the game every bokoblin camp will have explosive barrels. You can decimate the entire camp or most of the camp with ONE arrow. I recall one point I decided to attempt charging in with weapons, and I was promptly surrounded, my weapons broke, and I died. So rather than complain about it, I tried explosives and beat the camp with one arrow. Lizfalos weapons are very well-made, and you meet them immediately after passing Kakariko village and heading into the wetlands adjacent to Zora's Domain. This is after a couple hours. Jet played for 15 and is still struggling with weapons breaking way too often. That's why I'm so confused. This shouldn't happen.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Early in the game every bokoblin camp will have explosive barrels.

some enemy camps have explosive barrels, not all and that still doesn’t address the problem that was originally brought up about weapons breaking easily.

Jet played for 15 and is still struggling with weapons breaking way too often. That's why I'm so confused. This shouldn't happen.

You do realize that it’s not just Jet that has a complaint about this right? This is a common point of criticism for BotW. I’ve put over 250 hours into BotW and it does annoy me too.

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4 Months ago
Q

But still, the strength of every Zelda game is going to be the game play, not the story.

Agreed.

And it's not that I *hate* her or anything. She's...fine... Mostly she's just a nothing character, or the goal, right?

Yeah, that's the thing. She's more of a trophy to be won by beating Ganon than anything else. It's almost impossible to have strong feelings about her one way or the other, because the games do so little with her.

Can I ask: is there any reason why sometimes he's Ganon, and sometimes he's Ganondorf? Or are those somehow different characters? I feel like I missed something somewhere. (Although I know that the games don't *actually* have a real continuity and they just do whatever each game.)

Ganondorf is the actual guy, while "Ganon" is usually used to refer to his beast forms or him basically being 'evil incarnate' or whatever it is. There's a distinction, but it's relatively fluid and I tend to use them interchangeably.

4 Months ago
Count Dooku

Ganon is the actual entity, his raw self is usually a wild boar-like monster or some other creature. Ganondorf specifically refers to the form he took as a male Gerudo. The game never calls his other forms "Ganondorf," it's always just "Ganon."

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Yeah, that's the thing. She's more of a trophy to be won by beating Ganon than anything else.

Yeah, it's a bit of a bummer that they haven't really seemed too interested in updating that. It's kind of a tired trope. Understand why they did that 35 years ago, but it might be cool to have one of these games focus on fleshing her out more. (Might also be cool if - hot take warning! - they made a Legend of Zelda game wherein you play as Zelda.) Don't think they should just reverse the roles and have her rescue Link. But might be cool to have a game where you play as Zelda and kinda get a sense of why she's actually a princess worth saving. While the story is never interesting or engaging to me, they clearly want there to be some in there.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

I think I know why Nintendo decided to never ever ever ever ever ever ever let players play as Zelda ever again...

4 Months ago
mariomguy

The game never calls his other forms "Ganondorf," it's always just "Ganon."

To which Zelda game are you referring to? Because in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess one of his forms is most definitely referred to as Ganondorf.

4 Months ago
Q

Ganondorf is the actual guy, while "Ganon" is usually used to refer to his beast forms or him basically being 'evil incarnate' or whatever it is. There's a distinction, but it's relatively fluid and I tend to use them interchangeably.

Oh, ok. I guess that make sense. They're definitely less than clear about that in the games. But it also literally doesn't matter. Just one day I'm going to stop Ganon, and then the next I'm going to fight Ganondorf and it's like...wait, what happened? Why did his name get *longer*?

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Well, his nose gets longer, too.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

4 Months ago
Q

Gotta say, the rag doll effects are still kinda getting to me. It's sorta just hilarious to me.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

I've already spoken at length about combat, I'm not going to keep repeating it. If you play the game right, you won't have an issue keeping weapons around for a good long time. If you want the weapons to be more durable, then everyone will just spam Y because there's no real incentive to try anything else.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Also gotta say: there's a special place in hell for whomever insists on motion controls and/or gyroscopic controls. I get they want to show off what the tech of the console can do, but like, the physics are already wonky enough sometimes in this game for them to mix in "tilt your controller around."

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

I'm a little surprised that fire doesn't destroy a torch. You'd think with the durability system with weapons, and how they've had limited capacity on torches in the past, you'd lose your torch after it's on fire for a long time. (Unless the fire I had just lit was like, "magic" fire so that's why.)

Kinda wish the seeds that you give the Totoro wanna-be unlocked more than just one spot at a time, but not the biggest of deals. Just kinda annoying that I gotta find two seeds to unlock one spot for another shield.

And I'm also kinda realizing that I think maybe I'm just not really into stamina systems. I've found so few that are actually "fun." It's certainly not bad here, and I'm glad I don't use stamina to swing a weapon. I get that they probably include it because that's how they think they're gonna make traversal engaging in lieu of any actually fun way to travel. But can't say I'm the biggest fan of it. It's juuuust tedious enough to me that I'm even more glad I stopped playing Skyward Sword.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

If you play the game right, you won't have an issue keeping weapons around for a good long time.

Not using your weapons is not the right way to play the game lol

4 Months ago
Q

For the motion control maze thing, if you rotate the controller so the top is facing down, you can get the ball to land on the end of the maze, so you don't have to go through it. And if you flip the controller on the back side, you don't have to do the maze at all: underneath it's all perfectly flat. There are very few motion control shrines, they're not that big of a deal. The worst one is the maze, and most people don't realize you can bypass it.

There are some very high durability specialty items, like the woodcutter's axe for chopping trees, and torches. They deal practically no damage, so they're just useful for specific tasks. Some parts in the game you need a torch to navigate, and it's helpful to have one that doesn't break. You should take advantage of this to help durability.

Not using your weapons is not the right way to play the game lol

I have an awesome inventory and my weapons last a good long time. You're telling me I'm not playing the right way?

4 Months ago
mariomguy

I have an awesome inventory and my weapons last a good long time. You're telling me I'm not playing the right way?

Are you having fun? Are you using the weapons? Just because one person has a different play style than your's doesn't make their's wrong. However, weapons are there to be used, however you see fit to use them. So if all you are doing is using explosive barrels and bombs to kill enemies then you are defeating the purpose of having those weapons.

4 Months ago
Q

Are you having fun? Are you using the weapons? Just because one person has a different play style than your's doesn't make their's wrong.

I was having fun, until I became too OP and Lynels stopped being difficult. My inventory is 1/3rd Lynel weapons, 1/3rd royal weapons, some ancient++ and elemental weapons, 1/2 lynel bows, some golden and falcon bows, and almost all Lynel shields, a couple ancient ++ shields, and the Hylian shield. ALL of my armor is upgraded to 4 stars except a few pieces. And I probably have 100k rupees worth of inventory that I can sell. Like, just tons and tons of stuff.

Yes, I do use weapons, obviously, but time and place. When fighting Lynels I expect a weapon to break to free up a slot for the Lynel gear, so I'll use and abuse weapons. When facing Bokoblins, though, I really don't want their gear, so I'll avoid using mine as much as possible. Bows last a ridiculously long time, elemental arrows do more damage, and sneakstrikes are insanely good. Then, if I do end up breaking a weapon, I'll just use their weapons exclusively to break it and keep the junk slot open until I find something good to fill it again. Usually the junk slot will end up being a Triple Lizfalos Boomerang or a Dragonbone Boko Club/Moblin Bat: not royal, not durable, but also not too bad. If I switch to my better weapons for Bokoblins, that's a guarantee I'm going to end up with garbage inventory.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Just because one person has a different play style than your's doesn't make their's wrong.

Yeah, I mean, I totally get that they have a design philosophy to this game that runs pretty counterintuitive to fans of like, other RPGs designed kinda like this. But it's not like I'm doing anything the game isn't letting me do. I think if I'm truly "playing it wrong," then maybe at least *some* of that is in a comparatively weak tutorial. It's like with the cooking thing: I legit never ran into someone who taught me how to cook, which isn't a very intuitive control scheme, but I did run into a shrine that taught me how to back flip, which is pretty intuitive especially if you've ever played any previous Zelda game. So maaaaaybe if they want me to play it a certain way, they *could* have done a liiiiiittle more early on to educate new players on that. Like if I'm really supposed to be avoiding combat, they don't have to put enemies in some of the early shrines or point me right at a bokoblin encampment with a treasure chest. If their objective was to get me to use more environmental stuff, they *could* have done something apart from a totally optional (and easy to miss) situation where you see some bokoblins at the bottom of a hill with two boulders at the top (one of which kills one of the bokoblins if you shove it, the other of which just completely whiffs unless you get pretty lucky).

I'm not sure what exactly in the early stages of the game are actually teaching me as a new player how to play the game "properly." It's not that there is nothing, but like, weapons early on that break super easy *might* teach me to just start thinking of weapons as consumable items and adjusting my mindset. But it also *might* teach me to just avoid combat altogether and start hoarding weapons if they have decent stats and I might need them for tougher enemies. In the early stages of the game, I really don't feel like it's done terribly much to really teach me the "proper" way to play. And I think that stems from my initial argument that it's a liiiittle too open a liiiiiittle too early.

It's kinda like...Dark Souls (one of my all-time favorite games) really wants you to parry. But the game reeeeally doesn't do a particularly good job teaching new players to do that. Everything is substantially easier if you get good at parrying, but if you're struggling, you can always just turtle up with your shield, lock-on, circle around, and backstab. So while the game is both more fun and easier if you maximize the parry mechanic, the game doesn't do the best job teaching that to new players. (By contrast, Bloodborne does a great job with this by simply removing the shield entirely, so you *can't* play in the more conservative play style.)

I'm certainly not the only one who has felt this way early on in the game. So I think it's totally fair to ask the question: is this really *just* that sooo many individual players are total idiots and just don't want to play in a different style than they're accustomed to in a Zelda game? Or is it at least *partially* that Nintendo didn't do the absolute best job (not saying a "bad job" here) teaching a fundamentally new and different play style than past Zelda games?

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Like if I'm really supposed to be avoiding combat, they don't have to put enemies in some of the early shrines or point me right at a bokoblin encampment with a treasure chest. If their objective was to get me to use more environmental stuff, they *could* have done something apart from a totally optional (and easy to miss) situation where you see some bokoblins at the bottom of a hill with two boulders at the top (one of which kills one of the bokoblins if you shove it, the other of which just completely whiffs unless you get pretty lucky).

The thing is, you can play the game anyway you want, but whatever you do has consequences. You can spam Y, but then your weapons will break faster, and you'll need to use the weapons dropped by the enemies. The Bokoblin camps on the plateau have explosives everywhere, and fires so you can throw flaming arrows. It's your choice what you want to do. But complaining when you use weapons and they break is kind of like complaining the game is forcing you to use arrows. It's really not.

It's kinda like...Dark Souls (one of my all-time favorite games) really wants you to parry. But the game reeeeally doesn't do a particularly good job teaching new players to do that. Everything is substantially easier if you get good at parrying, but if you're struggling, you can always just turtle up with your shield, lock-on, circle around, and backstab. So while the game is both more fun and easier if you maximize the parry mechanic, the game doesn't do the best job teaching that to new players. (By contrast, Bloodborne does a great job with this by simply removing the shield entirely, so you *can't* play in the more conservative play style.)

Zelda did the same thing presenting you with a guardian early. You can parry with the weakest shield possible and completely destroy it. But then you got mad when you missed and it broke your shield. There's no way around this. People learn by trial and error, and you can't learn without error. The whole point of Zelda, for most Zeldas, is you need to figure out how to play it yourself. And in BoTW, there isn't any one solution to take down enemies, there are several:

-Ancient Arrow to the eye will obliterate guardians. But these arrows are very expensive.
-Regular arrow to the eye will make it pause for a moment. But then when it gets back up it will be smarter and walk around, making another arrow show more difficult.
-Destroy each leg to tip it over and destabilize. By the time you're left with only the head, a few hits should take it out. This is your safest bet and you get the most loot doing it, but it takes some time, and it is more difficult to pull off with multiple guardians at once.
-You can parry the laser blast with your shield for a perfect KO, but if you miss, your shield is gone.
-You can spam Y and run away from the blast, or just take the hit. Master Sword does double damage, but the blast is easier to run away if you're a good distance further.

These are all things you learn by playing the game, trial and error. If the game just tells you these things, then you lose the joy of discovery.

I'm certainly not the only one who has felt this way early on in the game. So I think it's totally fair to ask the question: is this really *just* that sooo many individual players are total idiots and just don't want to play in a different style than they're accustomed to in a Zelda game? Or is it at least *partially* that Nintendo didn't do the absolute best job (not saying a "bad job" here) teaching a fundamentally new and different play style than past Zelda games?

I played past Zelda games and had no issue learning the weapon system in this game. I realized if weapons break by the number of times I hit, then it's better to do as much damage in each hit so I can finish fights with the fewest hits possible. The game tells you what kind of modifiers you get for different armor, mushrooms, and fruits. And when I play the game, I learn which enemies drop which weapons, and I also learn strategies to take them down easier. The game is learning on your own, and most of it came like common sense to me. Then you just have to figure out the way you want to play, trial and error. But once you find a strategy you like, you have to accept the consequences. Instead of complaining, try actually doing something different. There are ways to take down Lynels, Guardians, Hinox, and Moldugas before they even have a chance to hurt you. But you have to be good at pulling them off, and you need good strategies. I'll give you a new one to take down the walking guardians:

An Ancient Battleaxe++ (from Major test of strength) does 60 base damage. This goes up to 90 with mighty simmered fruit, 162 when combined with the ancient armor set. If you go spinning, you only need 10 spins to take out a guardian that has 1500 HP. Now Urbosa's fury does 500 damage to guardians, so you only need 6 hits with the sword. And let's go further: you do damage on the legs and body, so you can do this EVEN QUICKER if you aimed your attack at both. Battle over in seconds. But if you don't use the fruits or armor set or this strategy at all and just go spamming Y with the same sword, you'll need to make 25 hits, and that senseless battle will last 5 minutes, you are likely to obliterate your health AND the durability of multiple weapons. This is why a lot of players are having trouble with the game: they charge in without thinking and then complain when their strategy (or lack of strategy) sucks. Stop comparing this game to Dark Souls, this isn't Dark Souls: you actually need fighting strategies, here.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Stop comparing this game to Dark Souls, this isn't Dark Souls: you actually need fighting strategies, here.

4 Months ago
Count Dooku

Stop comparing this game to Dark Souls, this isn't Dark Souls: you actually need fighting strategies, here.

I fear that you are desperately out of your depth here.

4 Months ago
CZM

Oof. If that were truly the case, then Jet would be admitting his playthrough of Dark Souls was more faithful to the game's intentions, and he's judging Zelda by a very different standard. He'd be admitting to using strategies and loving one game, but not attempting strategies and complaining about another.

Jet, there aren't any real strategies in Dark Souls to shorten fights. Are there?

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Weather mechanics in games are also kinda annoying to me. I hate it when I'm in the middle of trying to climb this mountain to check something out, and half-way up, it starts raining. So then I have to either wait, doing nothing, so I can continue, or just stop and do something else.

Just one of those little things where like, what does this add to the "fun" of the game, exactly? It's nowhere near like, Final Fantasy XV level "auto-drive" where you literally just sit in a car doing nothing for 2-7 minutes, but I just kinda want video games that just let me play it and don't keep interrupting me. It hasn't rained a ton so far, which is good! But almost always when it has rained, it's been while I'm specifically trying to do something that involves climbing. Li'l annoying.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

The only reason lightning exists is to make you carry ancient weapons/shields and wooden bows. Also, it makes the electric getup more viable. But the rain exists for a good reason - so you can't just climb the mountains in the jungle after Faron woods, and so they can make a long, winding path to Zora's Domain prior to defeating Vah Ruta. You can climb a little bit in the rain, and once you get Revali's Gale it won't be a huge problem. Snowstorms on the Hebra mountain that impede your vision, though, really suck. But it does make that moment of clarity really beautiful and striking. Stasis can help.

When it rains and I'm stuck without Revali's Gale, I'll just forage and wait for the weather to clear up. Then when it does, I'll be on my way.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

So I think one issue with any open world game (and I've had this with virtually ever open world game - which isn't to say I don't love some of these games, just that I find it a staple of the game type) is that it always ultimately winds up lacking focus (inevitable in a game that gives players a substantial amount of control), but also can feel sorta incohesive at times.

There's a lot about Breath of the Wild that I definitely appreciate and like in terms of how it deviates from the past 30 years of Zelda games. But as I do more and more shrines that are ultimately either just a sorta challenging fight or a comparatively short puzzle, it just seems like they either didn't or couldn't figure out how to really blend the two.

While I think it's silly to argue that this franchise was never about combat, it's also silly to think you could simply remove puzzles or exploration from a Zelda game and have it be a good Zelda game either. But I think back to the history of this franchise and how they always kinda blended these elements together pretty cohesively and well. So you would be doing a dungeon, exploring the nooks and crannies and fighting enemies to get to the boss fight so you can get that sweet, sweet heart container, and it would be like, "Wow, this dungeon is like a puzzle!" They always were puzzles, and had moments that were clearly, "Ok, here's a puzzle. Move these boxes around to unlock the door." But the more edifying puzzle element was the dungeon itself.

In essence, in the past, it has felt to me like I'd be playing and it'd be like, "Oh wow! This dungeon is like a puzzle!"

In BotW, it feels pretty exclusively like they're just like, "Here's another puzzle to solve."

Don't hate it (well, apart from when they require the gyroscopic controls to solve the puzzles), but I kinda wish they had figured out how to blend all these elements together. I know others have talked about the lack of dungeons in the past, and I definitely understand where people are coming from. Definitely feels a bit strange to play a Zelda game log double-digit hours on it, and not hit up a single dungeon or have a single boss fight yet.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Interestingly, one thing I've heard others discuss is the mediocre voice acting, especially of Zelda.

I definitely don't have strong feelings one way or the other, and I think they miscast her, but the voice doesn't really clash for me in the way it did for many others.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

In BotW, it feels pretty exclusively like they're just like, "Here's another puzzle to solve."

The big difference between other Zeldas and this one, traversing the landscape, finding the things you need to find, searching for shrines, etc. is all part of the great puzzle of the game. You find a Great Fairy, you need certain things to upgrade your armor, you have to figure out which place might be the best to get those things, you have to physically accomplish the tasks necessary to get them (be it fight Lynels or climb tall cliffs for Swift Violets). So in past Zeldas the puzzles were very obtuse, and in here the Korok puzzles and shrines are quite obtuse, but then there's the puzzle at large which is simply you trying to figure out what is the best way to get something done. And the game is open enough to allow more than one right answer, so it's not a puzzle in the traditional sense "solve for X," but a more natural kind of puzzle where you have to think critically and figure things out on your own.

Don't hate it (well, apart from when they require the gyroscopic controls to solve the puzzles), but I kinda wish they had figured out how to blend all these elements together. I know others have talked about the lack of dungeons in the past, and I definitely understand where people are coming from. Definitely feels a bit strange to play a Zelda game log double-digit hours on it, and not hit up a single dungeon or have a single boss fight yet.

...What are you doing? The Divine beasts are closer to the larger scale dungeons in Zelda, you still have those. Four of them. And the four Ganon blights. Are you doing any of the main story whatsoever? Within the first few hours I beat Vah Ruta and Waterblight of Zora's Domain, and then headed north to Death Mountain to settle Rudania.

If you want more of what you're talking about, you need to play the main story. How many blights did you defeat?

4 Months ago
mariomguy

The Divine beasts are closer to the larger scale dungeons in Zelda

No they are not.

4 Months ago
Q

No they are not.

Is disagreeing with everything I say a hobby of yours? How are the divine beasts not like dungeons?

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Finding some better weapons and it has been helpful to my enjoyment of playing the game. They still break way sooner than I think they should, but I'm starting to get more time to really get a feel for how different weapons handle. I'm at the point where I know I don't like two-handed weapons. So that's good.

Hands down, this game is at its absolute best when it just lets me play and doesn't interrupt me. That means not making it rain while I'm trying to climb so I can get somewhere, not constantly shattering my weapons mid-fight, not throwing a Guardian right in the way. None of these things break the game, of course, but they feel disruptive. Clearly, the strength of this game is the world design and exploration. So letting me actually do it while occasionally fighting enemies or stumbling into mini-puzzles is when this game is at its strongest, most cohesive, and absolute best of the Zelda franchise. Just wish it didn't take so long to get there.

I keep finding these sail boat rafts. What's the scoop on these? I assume at some point I'll be able to sail them?

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Is disagreeing with everything I say a hobby of yours?

No, I have agreed with you on topics in the past. But for a while now you've had single-focused self-absorbed point of view that honestly I can't help but disagree with.

How are the divine beasts not like dungeons?

OK, i'll concede and say they are like dungeons that are very watered down and simplified. But if you go back to almost any previous Zelda game, especially Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess you'll see that the divine beasts just don't compare. They aren't as hard, don't take nearly as long to complete.

----

Look, i'm not saying the game isn't fun. I currently have 250+ hours into the game and am playing through it again in Master Mode. I highly suggest you do that since you are finding that you are so OP right now.

4 Months ago
Q

They aren't as hard, don't take nearly as long to complete.

They aren't as, well, present either. At this point in any other Zelda game, I would have already done at least a couple of dungeons and faced a couple of bosses. Granted, BotW is substantially more open of a game (which is probably why I seem to be logging a lot of hours but not advancing very far in the story - I'm not ignoring story missions, but this game is at its best and most engaging when I see something that looks interesting and I decide I'm gonna just go check that out real quick. Seriously, world design here is some of the most impressive I've ever seen in a game.)

If the idea is that I *should* be doing something specific at this point in the game, then I think it begs the question of why they would make it *this* open. But it really seems to me like the game *wants* me to explore, that that is the main draw of the game. If anything, while I think puzzles and combat are both critical to a Zelda game, this game more than any in the past has really marketed itself as *the* exploration game. Generally, I mix up what I do between hitting up shrines, looking for a memory, doing story quests, and really just exploring. If that's "playing the game wrong," then I have to ask what the point of shrines, memories, and an open world actually even is.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

I'm at the point where I know I don't like two-handed weapons. So that's good.

Hold down the attack button. The two-handed weapons do the same damage when you spin as when you swing it. Now imagine taking down a Hinox like that.

Clearly, the strength of this game is the world design and exploration. So letting me actually do it while occasionally fighting enemies or stumbling into mini-puzzles is when this game is at its strongest, most cohesive, and absolute best of the Zelda franchise. Just wish it didn't take so long to get there.

The exploration and open-air is really constant in the game. But you gotta be willing to try other things when whatever you're doing doesn't work.

I keep finding these sail boat rafts. What's the scoop on these? I assume at some point I'll be able to sail them?

I'll go ahead and tell you: use a Korok leaf. This drove me crazy trying to figure it out.

OK, i'll concede and say they are like dungeons that are very watered down and simplified. But if you go back to almost any previous Zelda game, especially Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess you'll see that the divine beasts just don't compare. They aren't as hard, don't take nearly as long to complete.

I've played all of Twilight Princess twice and I loved its dungeons to death. But the divine beasts are just as complex and incredible. You can physically move the dungeon to different positions to do things, then fly where you need to. It's just brilliant. And the fact that the dungeons are non-linear makes it more multifaceted than the linear progression that was prescribed in TP. I love and appreciate both.

If I can add this, BoTW is very adult-proof. I can pick it up and play or drop it at any time without having to worry too much. And splitting up the larger dungeons into smaller shrines and making the divine beasts non-linear all plays into that.

They aren't as, well, present either. At this point in any other Zelda game, I would have already done at least a couple of dungeons and faced a couple of bosses. Granted, BotW is substantially more open of a game (which is probably why I seem to be logging a lot of hours but not advancing very far in the story - I'm not ignoring story missions, but this game is at its best and most engaging when I see something that looks interesting and I decide I'm gonna just go check that out real quick. Seriously, world design here is some of the most impressive I've ever seen in a game.)

Yes, this is my favorite aspect of BoTW. But I also enjoyed the walk to Zora's Domain and the Divine Beast "dungeons." When you play the main story you are making a conscious effort to do these things, and the "main story" loosens up as you go along. Death Mountain/Rudania is less linear, Rito Village is way less linear.

Generally, I mix up what I do between hitting up shrines, looking for a memory, doing story quests, and really just exploring. If that's "playing the game wrong," then I have to ask what the point of shrines, memories, and an open world actually even is.

No, you're doing the right thing. But if you constantly avoid the main story you're not getting any of the extra hearts, the champion's weapons, or their special abilities. The main quest stuff is going to get you the BEST stuff. Everything else is secondary. Again, I don't think it's the game's fault it allows you to do whatever you want. But if you're running into trouble because you're not strong enough, you might want to change your strategy and try something else.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Veeeery minor "gripe" I guess: I wish it were a liiiittle clearer about which shrines I've been to but haven't done. I can see that they differentiate between those and the shrines I have completed by having the former be a little yellow mark and the latter a little blue mark. But the icons are pretty small and it's definitely not the easiest on my eyes to try and figure it out. Wish they had maybe made the icons a little bigger or the yellow a little brighter. I just sorta feel like somewhere along the lines, developers just stopped caring about people who don't have the best eyesight. (This was a *huge* problem in Death Stranding for me. And I also almost always find I complain about every video game having text too small or something where it's just like...guys, I don't wanna have to sit three feet away from my TV to see what you're trying to tell me here.)

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Veeeery minor "gripe" I guess: I wish it were a liiiittle clearer about which shrines I've been to but haven't done.

I have a similar grip, I'm at 120 shrines completed, but thats with the 17 dlc shrines completed, so that means I still have 16 shrines to complete and I can't find them. I've looked up map locations and everything.

4 Months ago
Q

I think I found all the shrines in the overworld, I just need to complete the shrine quests. I swear I've talked to every NPC and I still have something like 15 shrine quests left to complete. The game is massive, while they have all these systems in place to track progress, 100% completion is really hard.

The icons look fine to me... though I am playing on a 65" OLED :P

4 Months ago
mariomguy

The icons look fine to me... though I am playing on a 65" OLED :P

4 Months ago
Q

I mean, it's the truth. I don't have an issue with icon size because I play on a large TV. Doesn't need to be OLED, you can find brand new 65" TVs for $400-$600. And it doesn't need to be that large to see everything clearly. If you have bad vision, wear glasses.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

I have a similar grip, I'm at 120 shrines completed, but thats with the 17 dlc shrines completed, so that means I still have 16 shrines to complete and I can't find them.

Do you mean you can't find them in the world?

I mean more like, I've been to a few shrines, but I'm clearly not supposed to be doing them yet so I left to save them for later. Which means the shrines are marked on my map (and I can fast travel to them, which is super convenient and great!). But when I pull up my map, I really have to squint to tell which are the shrines marked on my map that I haven't completed yet. At first I didn't think they made any distinction whatsoever. They do. But the icons are so small that I had to really lean in to tell which were completed shrines and which were incomplete.

They're not so small or bad if you just need to tell what is a shrine on your map. But if you want to know which shrine you've done and which shrine you skipped, they're a little small for the one difference between them.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Been largely avoiding mguy's bullshit, but this is so wild and emblematic of the nonsense demeanor that I can't help myself..

I mean, it's the truth. I don't have an issue with icon size because I play on a large TV.

Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me.

"I don't have this issue, therefore it's not a real issue."

Let me ask: can you understand that people go hungry? Or do you not have that issue, so hunger in the world isn't a real issue?

Doesn't need to be OLED, you can find brand new 65" TVs for $400-$600.

Ok, but why do *I* have to spend hundreds of extra dollars I don't really have when they could just, I dunno, make the icons a *li'l* clearer?

All I'm asking is for developers to just make things a liiiiiittle clearer and understand that not everyone is going to have near perfect vision or a gigantic television or hundreds of dollars. Is it *really* so much to ask that developers - and I'm not even just talking about Nintendo here, so you don't have to take it so personally for whatever pathetic reason - maybe just consider that not everyone is you? (Thank god.)

If you have bad vision, wear glasses.

HA HA HA! Wow. You're a fucking idiot AND an ableist AND a cunt! (With some top notch classism in the mix for good measure.) Complete package!

But seriously, "wear glasses" (as if I don't) as a response is even dumber and more intellectually pathetic than "git gud" as a response.

Hey bud. If you can't handle even minor criticism of your favorite game, because you weirdly take it personally, ya don't have to keep posting in this thread.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

If you have bad vision, wear glasses.

What would we do without your words of wisdom? Go around blind I guess.

4 Months ago
Q

Also want to respond to the general buck wild nature of "this isn't a problem because I personally play it on a large television!" given that we're talking about a game literally designed as a release title for the Switch - a console famously designed to also be portable and played in a hand-held mode.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Let me ask: can you understand that people go hungry? Or do you not have that issue, so hunger in the world isn't a real issue?

Most people nowadays have a TV larger than 32". Even a 24" computer screen will show everything really well. I feel you'd have to have a really small TV and play from a really far distance and have terrible vision all at the same time for this to be a real issue.

All I'm asking is for developers to just make things a liiiiiittle clearer and understand that not everyone is going to have near perfect vision or a gigantic television or hundreds of dollars. Is it *really* so much to ask that developers - and I'm not even just talking about Nintendo here, so you don't have to take it so personally for whatever pathetic reason - maybe just consider that not everyone is you? (Thank god.)

I think the issue is more with your setup than with the game. The map already looks bloated with the current icon size.

Hey bud. If you can't handle even minor criticism of your favorite game, because you weirdly take it personally, ya don't have to keep posting in this thread.

So far here's what the criticism in this thread has amounted to:
- You don't know how to strategize in combat and complain that the game is hard
- You complain the shrines/Divine Beast puzzles aren't long or difficult enough, despite 4 divine beasts and 120 shrines to Twilight Princess' 9 dungeons
- You don't follow the main story (where characters tell you to go and what to do) and complain the game isn't teaching you
- You play on a tiny TV several yards away and complain icons on the game's map are difficult to see (if you think this is bad, what do you think about Ubisoft's maps?)

You're taking things that you're doing incorrectly or deliberately avoiding and applying it like it's a problem with the game. The whole thread just comes across as very nitpicky, not legitimate problems with the game design preventing you from learning on your own or figuring out how to beat it. And there are moments in the game that are legitimate issues, but you're not mentioning them.

In Vah Ruta, there's a door to download a map/controls of the place behind a locked door, and the game lets you activate 3/5ths of the terminals before getting the map. But then you actually need it to control the beast and access the remaining terminals. So I looked everywhere trying to find a way to the terminals or open the door to the map, and when I couldn't find anything I had to resort to a guide. Turns out the door was over water and you can just lift it up with Cryonis. This is NOT how most doors work in the game and it was actually incredibly unfair defying expectations like that. Most of the time when the game does this stuff it's brilliant, like when you figure out you can use metal weapons and shields to guide electricity, and the openness makes you feel really good about finding different solutions. But when it forces you to do a very specific thing, especially when that thing goes against its own conventions, that's Zelda at its worse. This is a problem not just with this game, but many Zelda games. It's not as bad here, but it's still present.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Most people nowadays have a TV larger than 32". Even a 24" computer screen will show everything really well. I feel you'd have to have a really small TV and play from a really far distance and have terrible vision all at the same time for this to be a real issue.

I think the issue is more with your setup than with the game. The map already looks bloated with the current icon size.

Yeah guys, Don't play it in Portable mode even though that's what the console is designed to do!!! Buy a Bigger TV and only play it in docked mode!!!

4 Months ago
Q

When you play it portable you're holding the screen physically closer to you, so it takes more of your vision. That's the equivalent of a 24" computer monitor, or a large TV in your living room. The worst case isn't portable, it's docked to a small TV far away, and that's how Jet seems to be playing this game.

For some, a few hundred is massively expensive. But it's worth it to be able to see clearly. Big ones aren't much more expensive than the small ones nowadays, and with wall mounts there's no excuse for people to not have a decent sized TV or computer monitor up close to play on.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

You are missing the point entirely, Mguy

4 Months ago
Q

And what is the point? The map that already looks filled with icons needs to be bloated with even larger icons? Users should've been given the option to change the size, I'll agree with that, but this isn't even an issue most people are facing.

I'm more concerned Jet's saying he's having trouble seeing them... if you play portable or on a computer monitor or decent sized TV that shouldn't be happening at all. Now I'm questioning whether or not he's playing this game on a decent screen. There's a lot of important text, too. If he can't see the shrine icon on the big map, he probably can't even read any of the text, and his other complaints will start to make a lot more sense.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

And what is the point?

The point is Git Gud.

4 Months ago
Q

Well, that's what I've been saying... but it's more complicated than that. If he's not reading the text of items he picks up, of course he's not gonna realize what they do. If he's not following the main story, of course he's going to miss learning about some of the most important things. If he can't see the game clearly, of course his experience is going to be docked. It's the perfect storm of mishaps that prevented him from learning these things.

I don't think he got Revali's Gale or Urbosa's Fury, yet. Or the Master Sword. That changes how you play the game significantly.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Jet can see the game, he's saying that the difference in the two is a little too small, especially in the sea of icons on a large map. I had incomplete shrines to do late in the game as well and I did wish that there was an easier difference to find them or tell them apart than an orange speck on a blue background. Be it different colors (just a different solid color that's not blue or orange) or a filter system. That's pretty much all Jet was saying but you took it to be he's playing on a small TV and sitting on the other side of his house complaining that he can't tell the difference.

His issue with the weapons is also legitimate. Weak weapons in the beginning break too frequently and it's compounded by having too few weapons slots early on. He's not playing anything wrong by having this issue, hell I did as well. Telling him he's doing it wrong isn't helping anything. He gave his early impressions which means he has a way to go.

4 Months ago
Fox Forever

I'm more concerned Jet's saying he's having trouble seeing them...

Seriously? I honestly can't tell if you aren't reading anything we write, can't comprehend what we're saying, or just can't be bothered because for some reason, you take criticism of a game you really like as personal criticism of you as a human being.

What I *didn't* say was that I can't see anything on the screen. (If you're soooo concerned about my experience and how wrong I'm playing this open world exploration adventure game apparently, you will be happy to hear that I actually find the text easy to read and appreciate how often it's pretty large text. It's one of the few video games in which the text hasn't been an issue.)

What I *did* say was that it can be a little tricky to easily spot which shrines I have completed and which I have visited but not done when I open up the map. I have no trouble telling what is and isn't a shrine. But because there are so many icons on the map the more you explore, and because the inner part of the shrine is a different color to indicate if you haven't completed it yet, I often find I have to strain, squint, and lean in to tell. And I wish they had just done something like made incomplete shrines a totally different color altogether, instead of doing a blue outline box with a yellow line on the inside.

Users should've been given the option to change the size, I'll agree with that, but this isn't even an issue most people are facing.

You should just stop with "I'll agree they should give users the option to change size." Every single time you say "this isn't even an issue most people are facing," you're revealing your smug, frankly ableist nature. I'll have you know that - like weapon degradation system - almost every person I've talked to has expressed a similar complaint about the icons. And I'll also remind you (if you ever even bothered to read it the first time), that this is by definition and admission a minor complaint.

But also, once again, you have just created this idea out of thin air of what you think I *must* be advocating for. I literally said they could have also made the color a little brighter, instead of making the icons a little bigger. (Could have also included a way to filter icons on the map, too. That'd help a li'l bit.)

Can you for just three seconds stop making shit up about what I'm saying or advocating for? Or at least pretend to be a decent human capable of understanding that you're experience is not the *only* experience. Or for the love of god and all that is holy, stop acting like somehow any of Nintendo's games reflects on you as a person. What the FUCK does it matter to you one way or the other if they made the colors a little brighter or icons a little clearer? If you didn't have a problem, you *still* won't have a problem if they do that. And if it's a really minor thing that would put less strain on the eyes of me and other players (you can keep acting like I'm somehow the only person in the world who has ever experienced any of these issues expressed at all in this thread), and you can even concede that maybe they could have given players the option to increase the size or change colors, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO ARGUE ABOUT IT? Why do you then have to act so fucking smug and condescending? Why do you HAVE to make something that's nobody's fault and make it about how I just must suck because I don't have \$500 for a TV like yours or my eyes aren't as good as yours and I would ideally like to sit a healthy distance away from the screen?

You don't HAVE to respond all the time to things that you didn't personally have an issue with, but can see other people have an issue with.

If he's not following the main story, of course he's going to miss learning about some of the most important things.

I want to speak real slowly so you understand, but you can't speak slowly in text and I also genuinely don't think you're capable of understanding this point:

If I *have* to follow the main story to get key elements of the basic gameplay, then maybe this isn't a shining example of game design because the game literally is - above everything else - really prioritizing exploration. That's why it's so open. If to enjoy this open world game, I *must* stick to the story for a good chunk of time, then maaaaybe my criticism that it is a little too open too early is not just valid, but completely confirmed by you.

But then, you also can't resist the urge to make shit up about me, my living situation, my set up, and even how I'm playing the game. So I don't expect you to understand anything.

The most frustrating thing is that I sometimes appreciate what you have to say about games, but in this thread you have come off as just the absolute most unbearable person to talk to. You're condescending, smug, intellectually dishonest, show no signs whatsoever of the capacity to understand experiences not your own, elitist, classist, and a little bit ableist. I and others have shown *immense* patience with you. And you can't even be bothered to even so much as like, *ask* about what my set up might be. You just jump *right* to bullshit you conjure out of your ass (or head, can't tell which is which, to be honest).

And because you *insist* on doing this, you blow virtually everything out of proportion. With how much we argued over weapon degradation, a mechanic that I said I generally don't like and was routinely interrupting my ability to really get into the game and have the most fun with, but that it wasn't like a game-breaking mechanic that was causing me to be miserable, you'd think I was saying this game is actively terrible or horribly designed. And now, because I made an admittedly minor complaint about a small display thing on a fucking map where I said I wish it were a liiiiiittle clear, listening to you, you'd think I despised this game and everything about it. Because you have to blow *everything* out of proportion. (I mean, the bulk of the weapon degradation argument wasn't even about weapon degradation as much as it was about getting you to at least acknowledge some understanding of what we were saying.)

But dude, fucking just stop. If my issues here bug you soooooo much, you can just stop. Contrary to what this thread has become, I didn't start it so you could just come in, be completely dismissive and judgmental, and then just ignore almost every single thing I say. If you're gonna take it so personally all the time, you can just shut the fuck up some time. Or offer input when I ask for it.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

He's not playing anything wrong by having this issue, hell I did as well

I don't understand how someone can praise this open world game for it's excellent world design (and I maintain it is one of the most impressive worlds I've engaged with in video games - like yeah it can sometimes feel a little empty, but I've never played a game where just looking somewhere and seeing something kinda unusual has made me feel like, "oooh! What's that?" and then caused me to spend 40 minutes to investigate!) and the near total freedom it gives players because of all the key ingredients of a Zelda game, it's clearly prioritizing exploration. But then tell me that I'm "playing it wrong" because I'm not *only* doing story missions.

If anyone's curious to how I *actually* have been playing the game, the routine tends to go like this:

I pick up where I left off. Usually, that will mean I either just got to a village or wherever the next story quest is, or I just entered a shrine, or I just climbed a tower.

So I'll finish that shrine, or look around to see if I can spot any shrines from the tower, or I'll talk to whomever I'm supposed to talk to for the story. Then I'll head to a specific destination. Either where the game is telling me the next story beat is, or if I thought I saw a shrine, or if I'm not terribly far from another tower. I head off in that direction.

Sometimes, I get distracted because I'll think I see something that might have been a "Memory." So I'll go to check that out.

Sometimes, I side track because I spot something else off in the distance and I'm like, "Oooh, what is that? Seems interesting!" And it's not uncommon for me to get sidetracked on that because I spot something *else* a little closer by. And then sometimes I'll see a group of enemies and will want to engage with them because I do mostly enjoy combat in this game and want to hone up my skills a bit.

I'll do some combination of towers, memories, shrines, story, and general exploration for maybe an hour or two before I call it a day or night.

If this is "playing the game wrong," then I would argue that this very much a poorly designed game. Because literally everything has been pushing me to play it this way. And if this "playing it wrong," then I have to ask if it deserves credit as an open world game, because why the heck would it encourage me to spend so much time looking around this beautiful world of theirs if they intended for me to just go from yellow dot to yellow dot and hit up shrines if I just happen to come across them? (I mean, they literally tell you to use the towers to spot and mark shrines).

(It should be noted: I don't think this is a bad game or poorly designed. But if I'm *not* supposed to be playing this way, combining shrines, story, memories, and general exploration, then this game and these designers were dumb and accidentally made a decent game.)

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

As soon as you get past Kakariko Village, you're in Lizfalos territory. Good weapons. The enemies on Death Mountain, even better. You can take down a Guardian in 5 hits with a good strategy, otherwise the same weapon will take 25. The only way weapons are a problem early in the game is if you don't follow the story, target only the Bokoblin camps, and avoid ANY strategy other than spam Y, in which case you will need to pick up more weapons.

As for the icons, I always beat the shrines I enter, so they always showed up blue. Not sure if different colors look worse. If you and Jet say it's a problem I guess it is, but this is the first time I'm hearing of it.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

So let me say something that may blow your mind. I left the mission marker to head to Kakariko for literally 60 hours. My main goal was to first complete the map because not being able to tell where I was is disorienting. I played for 60ish hours that way and found more places and things initially including major tests of strength that were way too out of my element. I explored the game which seemed to be what they wanted you to do. I got accustomed to how to deal in the combat (or when to say forget it and not bother) and came to the conclusion that while I did enjoy how I strategized, weapons breaking still felt largely unfair at times even once I had expanded inventory. I had to horde good items in case a big bad could come along and take a million hits. The combat isn't exactly a problem, it's the breaking of the items that is. No matter if Jet is a skilled combatant or not the weapon breaks all the same. They don't break down and become less effective, they arent repairable, they shatter and blow up and you have no hope to fix them.

4 Months ago
Fox Forever

What I *did* say was that it can be a little tricky to easily spot which shrines I have completed and which I have visited but not done when I open up the map.

Sorry, I didn't realize the icons were different if you activated a shrine but didn't complete it. Just didn't understand what the issue was.

I'll have you know that - like weapon degradation system - almost every person I've talked to has expressed a similar complaint about the icons.

...IDK what these people are doing. I'm a stickler for design issues like this myself, but I've never had an issue with icon size or weapons degradation at all. Not even early on. I realized the Boko weapons were garbage and avoided them as much as possible.

Can you for just three seconds stop making shit up about what I'm saying or advocating for? Or at least pretend to be a decent human capable of understanding that you're experience is not the *only* experience.

...You realize from my point of view it's like someone complaining about jumping in Mario. It's like the reviewer who got stuck in Cuphead's tutorial. The boko weapons break, don't use 'em. The game tells me to cook and whittles my health otherwise, I know I should cook. Something doesn't work, try something else. I physically can't understand how the things you're mentioning are real problems.

I don't think it's healthy to continue this. You can do or think or say whatever you want, I really don't care at this point. But all of the things you seem to have issues with are problems that are very easy to solve. The game is figuring out how to solve them. And if you think I'm elitist because I avoid using weapons that break easy and don't have a problem seeing the map icons... IDK, man.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Speaking as a visually impaired person yes the color change for shrien indicators can be hard to spot sometimes.

4 Months ago
tnu

The combat isn't exactly a problem, it's the breaking of the items that is. No matter if Jet is a skilled combatant or not the weapon breaks all the same. They don't break down and become less effective, they arent repairable, they shatter and blow up and you have no hope to fix them.

If your weapons break hitting a rock, all hope is lost. But if your weapons break facing an enemy, you get their weapons. Don't waste your weapons on Bokoblin camps because their weapons are pretty garbage.

No... I'm not gonna continue giving strategies on how to avoid these problems. I did that like 10 times already. If you have a problem or you're faced with something difficult in the game, I guarantee you there is a way around it. A Guardian can take 500 hits from sticks, or 5 hits with the right weapon/armor set/modifiers/etc, or a perfect shield parry. It all depends on how you approach it.

The entire game is all about learning, discovery, and trying to find new solutions to fix problems. Nobody needs to do things the way I do it, but everyone needs to do something other than run into Bokoblin camps, spam Y, and complain about weapon failure. Boko weapons break faster, and spamming boko weapons without modifiers will make them break fastest.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Speaking as a visually impaired person yes the color change for shrien indicators can be hard to spot sometimes.

That's definitely a problem with the design, then. But because I complete every shine I go to, this hasn't been a problem I encountered.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

I've already done literally everything I can in the game. I know it, I've done it. It doesn't mean that I have to accept that the weapons break faster than I'd like them to. I think it would've been better if there was a way to maintain your items. Who would ever believe a sword would actually break in 40ish swings against enemies?

Jet is just giving his impressions and that's all it is. Positive or negative these are his thoughts in the start which in no way is an attack to the game.

Also you're talking about armor modifiers and shield parry's when Jet's not even ridden a horse yet. He'll likely get there and figure it all out.

4 Months ago
Fox Forever

I don't think the game is too open, but it does allow you to do things in a really terrible way. I still feel if weapons were more durable they'd be OP. I'm maintaining an inventory of royal weapons, and the Champions' weapons have added durability and can always be rebuilt, so I have a large inventory of amazing weapons that really do last a good, long time.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Mariomguy, have you noticed that no one is agreeing with you and that we are all saying the same things? Kind of puts you in the minority doesn’t it?

4 Months ago
Q

Do other people's opinions change the fact that I have an entire inventory full of swords that basically haven't changed the last 60 hours and I have trouble getting rid of them?

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Do other people's opinions change the fact that I have an entire inventory full of swords that basically haven't changed the last 60 hours and I have trouble getting rid of them?

Perhaps if you actually used your weapons you wouldn't have a hard time getting rid of them.

4 Months ago
Q

I do use my weapons. But I also use attack boosters, bows, and shields, and other stuff, too. And I don't complain when a weapon breaks and a junk slot opens up. But I'm telling you, I had to give up so many good weapons just because my inventory is already maxed out and the good weapons don't break fast enough. I'm at the point whatever weapon I want, it's easy for me to farm, so even if they degraded faster, it's not an issue. It should also be said bows and elementals usually deal more damage than weapons, so there are a lot of cases where it makes 0 sense to use a weapon at all. One fire arrow on an icy Lizfalos and they're gone, compared to like 10-20 hits from a good sword. Some bomb arrows can decimate a camp, crit hits with bows work really nicely, and bows last a LONG time.

There are a million strategies to play the game, but the one that degrades your weapons the most is spam Y. Doing practically anything else, even eating an attack boost and spamming Y, will make your weapons last much longer than just spamming Y alone.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

4 Months ago
Cyberpunk 2077 - Disappointing?

I'm at the point whatever weapon I want, it's easy for me to farm, so even if they degraded faster, it's not an issue.

But early on, when you are first starting out you do not have access to good weapons like those. The ones you find ARE junk and break easily. That is what everyone is saying, and you're over here like "I'm 150 hours in and I have shitload of good weapons, I am god" when no one cares.

4 Months ago
Q

When you first start out, all the Bokoblins die from an explosion, and there are explosives everywhere. Then as soon as you head north from Kakariko Village, a couple hours into the game, you can get Lizfalos weapons which deal higher damage and have much better durability. When you beat Ruta, you get Mipha's Lightscale Trident, one of the most durable weapons in the game, and one of the most powerful you get early on. Then, if you continue heading North to Death Mountain, you'll face even stronger Lizfalos with even better weapons and bows and stuff. And you'll run into a few Hinoxes along the way and shrines and chests carrying great weapons as well.

So if you play through the main story, you will naturally get really good weapons. 15-20 hours in you'll get the Master Sword and if there was any issue with durability before, it will be even less of an issue now.

But let's completely disregard the fact that it's barely an issue to start with and pretend that it's actually a really serious problem and it happens very often. Your weapon just broke, so you have to use another one of the 4-15 you're carrying. Maybe one of the weapons still lying on the ground from 5 last enemies you just killed can fill the single empty slot. And if all those weapons magically melted off the face of the Earth and you're stuck with a garbage weapon, even a garbage weapon should take out a few enemies. And let's say you have absolutely no weapons whatsoever and you don't want to teleport away - use a bomb arrow on your next enemy camp and get all their weapons. But let's say you don't want to use anything other than weapons, there are swords scattered all over the Great Plateau and hiding in treasures and in shrines around the world. And let's say you still want to use weapons but you don't want to leave, there are treasure chests with weapons all over the world, and weapons lying around some camps, you can sneak and grab them. You should replace terrible weapons with better ones, always, but let's say you completely shut your brain off and don't do that. Terrible weapons break sooner, good ones last longer. So naturally you don't even having to think, just playing the game will improve your inventory for you.

Any way you slice it... even in the worst most impossibly terrible case scenario you turn your brain off and play as terribly and restrictively as possible, durability is barely, just barely a minor slight. Oh, I have to use a different weapon now... That's it. The way it's implemented, durability feels less like a problem and more like a feature. Yeah, of course people want good weapons to last longer. Spam Y is easy. If you want to turn off your brain completely and spam Y on low-end enemies, you have to accept that weapons will break faster than if you used some kind of strategy. It's really not a problem.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

There are just a lot of little mechanics that by no means are deal-breakers or make the game actively "not fun" to play, but I think of all the elements of this game, weather is the one that I really just don't get what it *adds* to the game. We can argue about weapon degradation all we want, and while I personally dislike it very much and how it's implemented in this game, I do understand what positive thing they're trying to add with it. But weather? I don't really know what possible "fun" can be added from rain, or sandstorms that clog up your map. Even cold via elevation gets a bit silly (I suppose I'm just supposed to intuitively know when I'm high enough that I'm gonna take cold damage, but there have been places where there's no real distinguishing markers between the line when cold weather affects me, and when it doesn't. I think I climbed up like, 20 feet somewhere and started taking damage. Dropped back down to the lower ledge and was fine.)

Not really related thought though: is stamina a thing to really invest much in? It's pretty unclear to me at this point if or why I would want to increase my stamina at this stage in the game instead of investing orbs into hearts. Stamina increase could make things easier or more convenient, but hasn't really seemed a necessity yet in the way improving my life does.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

A full stamina wheel is pretty great. That + Revali's Gale and the Climber's getup makes climbing very easy. But you can cook a single endura mushroom or carrot for full trips. It depends how you want to handle it, but full stamina wheel is really nice and totally worth it, especially late game.

What Champion abilities do you have, and how many hearts?

4 Months ago
mariomguy

As for rain, I'm not gonna say it's cool, but it does force you to strategize more. Bombs and fire don't work in rain, and you can't just climb out, so you have to adjust strategy. Lightning strikes metal, so you have to adjust pretty significantly for that. You can still do things when it happens, and a few minutes later, it's gone.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Not really related thought though: is stamina a thing to really invest much in? It's pretty unclear to me at this point if or why I would want to increase my stamina at this stage in the game instead of investing orbs into hearts. Stamina increase could make things easier or more convenient, but hasn't really seemed a necessity yet in the way improving my life does.

I'd put it down to personal preference. This playthrough I did something like:

1x Heart -> 5x Stamina (full additional wheel) -> 9x Heart -> Now boosting stamina again, 2 or 3 into my next wheel

I tend to climb a lot, and the additional stamina is huge for that. It can also play into DPS if you're using the 'charged' attack with 2 handed weapons, where you'll spin rapidly until your stamina wheel ends. You can also glide further with more stamina, provided you start from a very high place.

But without getting too much into spoilers, at some point you'll want 13 heart containers so you can do a specific thing.

4 Months ago
Count Dooku

^ DON'T SAY HOW MUCH!

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Gotcha. I do a fair amount of climbing myself, but it hasn't often come up that I can't get to the top with the current stamina level I have.

It's funny, and not to keep comparing it to Dark Souls, but I had such a clearer idea of how to balance stamina and health in that game. Here, I feel like hearts are a must; stamina is just about convenience. And that kinda doesn't feel right? Didn't realize there are some attacks that use stamina.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Oh man... Hold down attack button on a two-handed sword/axe. There are areas in the game you will need more stamina to reach. Like everything else, there are many ways to go about it. I kind of don't want to spoil everything, but you will find armor that will help with climbing, and one of the Champion's abilities is SUPER useful for this thing. Play the main story, you won't regret it. But any food with "endura" was kind of meant for you to cook once and it will replenish your stamina wheel while you're still climbing, so even if you decide to never update stamina it's not a dealbreaker, it's just more difficult and takes longer.

Stamina controls:

- How far you can climb
- How far you can glide
- How far you can swim
- How far you can run
- How long you can spin a double-sword/axe

4 Months ago
mariomguy

4 Months ago
Q

4 Months ago
Q

Jet literally didn't realize he could perform one of the more useful attacks in the game. So I'm sorry if in-between dozens of posts on advanced strategies, one of my replies specifically answered his question.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

I know I've been pretty down on a lot of systems and mechanics of this game. Was just saying to my colleague that I do like the game, but if you asked me to make a list of things I like about it versus things I don't like about it, the dislike side would be longer.

But I keep coming back to just how impressive this world is. My initial concern that it would feel too empty - because it really is huge and there really doesn't look like there's going to be much to do - was pretty off (even if understandable as an initial concern). Honestly can't tell you how many times I've been off to a location, spot something off in the distance, get curious and go to check it out, and then spot something else on the way to that. And because it's always (or almost always, anyway) my choice to go check it out, it never feels tedious or like I'm doing a typical open world fetch quest. Easily the highlight of this game - if there's one thing that I genuinely think they did better than pretty much everyone else - it's their world design. Even when it's just another set of ruins, it's usually different enough for me to still be interested. I can, and obviously have, poured hours into just exploring and looking around. Can't think of any other open world game where that has been as enjoyable to me, or that I even do it. (I like the worlds of Far Cry or Horizon Zero Dawn or Ghost of Tsushima, but they never made me feel like "exploring." I just saw where the side quests took me.)

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

I have a feeling that BotW2 will fix alot of the complaints people are having with BotW. Such as the weapon breaking complaint.

4 Months ago
Q

The more you play, the more things you'll figure out and learn, and the better you'll get. The armor upgrades from fairies is HUGE. You can spend 40 hours just trying to gather all the parts you need to upgrade all your armor to the max. The ride includes Lynel battles, shooting dragons, mining, climbing, and searching and harvesting stuff all over. The game encourages you to explore every nook and cranny of this world, the post game is actually better, I think, then the main game and fight to Ganon for that reason. It's just so open at that point, and you have all the abilities, you can do anything.

If you think weapon degredation is bad from the first few hours of playing, trust me, it gets a whole lot better. But it's best to actually engage with the game and learn from it, not just be a bystander.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

@mariomguy I want to give you the "Best Gamer Award" it is obvious to me that these people didnt understand how to play the game. We both understood how to play it.

4 Months ago
S.O.H.

Well, Jet said he didn't know how to spin a large sword, so...

Just trying to be helpful guys.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Just trying to be helpful guys.

Yeah, remember guys if you have bad vision, wear glasses.

4 Months ago
Q

Ok, I'm starting to understand the complaint people had about finding treasure chests and every time having to clean up their inventory through menus in order to get what's in the chest (if you want it in the first place). Again, totally minor thing, but also definitely tedious and annoying to have to do that every time you get a treasure chest.

I actually find that this winds up making me not care about treasure chests. Like I've gone through some exploratory stretches wherein I'm investigating something that seems cool, or I accidentally find an environmental puzzle and solve it, and there's a moment of gratification. And then....oh, it's just a treasure chest with a weapon that I don't care about. (I don't know if I've gotten more than a handful of weapons from chests that actually are better than the weapons I was carrying at the time. It's not that it never happens, but it doesn't happen a lot.) So it's kinda funny that solving the environmental puzzle is infinitely more rewarding than the actual in-game reward.

Also, kinda annoying you can get struck by lightning when you're gliding, turns out. I'm not grounded, but ok. Thanks for giving me another reason to have to interrupt what I'm doing to navigate the menus. (The reliance on disruption for menu stuff reminds me a lot of like, the Water Temple in Ocarina.)

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

I actually find that this winds up making me not care about treasure chests.

At this point I only bother to clear shrine chests, because you get a little "chest" icon near the shrine telling you that you finished it 100%. If the weapon in the chest is worse than what I'm carrying, I'll drop -> chest -> drop new weapon -> pick up old weapon. It's tedious!

There are like, 1000 small quality of life changes holding this game back from true greatness.

4 Months ago
Count Dooku

I heard the game keeps track of when you open the chests, not whether or not you take the item inside. Really, it seems the largest portion of the 100% counter are Korok seeds. 900 of them... finding them all is just insane.

There are ways to become lightning proof... not going to say how, just going to say that it's possible. In fact, you can use lightning in your favor... not gonna say how, just that it's possible.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Totally. Lots of stuff that makes me grumble or roll my eyes, but nothing that I can't play.

I really think the weather to me is the one that I don't really see what it's supposed to add. Is there an upside to being forced to give up on trying to get to where you've been headed for the past 30 minutes because it's raining or thunderstorming?

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

There's usually always something you can do nearby until the rain clears. And it usually clears in a few minutes. But if you have the Thunder Helm during lightning storm... whoo, get ready to see fireworks!

I'm still finding stuff in this game 165 hours in.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Is there an upside to being forced to give up on trying to get to where you've been headed for the past 30 minutes because it's raining or thunderstorming?

I think the rain and lighting are intended to make you think on your feet and change tactics. However, it is annoying when you’ve started climbing and it starts to rain.

4 Months ago
Q

But it's like, does it do that? When it starts to lightning, I basically pause the game via the menus and change my equipment, and then it's fine.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

You're really making me want to spoil something really cool in the game... but lightning can be used to your advantage.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

But it's like, does it do that?

Well yes. As you pointed out you have to change your gear to keep from attracting lighting so you always need to make sure you have gear for that. Also, if you have flint and wood you can find a cave or somewhere that’s not wet and start a fire. This will allow you to sit at the fire for a while allowing you to quickly wait out the storm.

4 Months ago
Q

I guess I don't really think of pausing the game and sifting around my inventory as "thinking on my feet" as much as I think of it as "disruptive."

Either way, I'd rather just be able to do what I was in the middle of doing. And also not have the view obstructed. I dunno why anyone ever thinks that it's "fun" to make it harder to see things around you in a video game.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Lol. Was in a shrine with a bunch of rolling boulders where they want you to use stasis and whatnot. I misjudged my timing and got hit by a boulder which did a fair amount of damage. Then, I managed to stasis the boulders and tried to sneak in and...took damage and died because I ran into a boulder. A stationary boulder...

The physics in this game are really wild sometimes. And to be honest, I kinda don't appreciate how the main way they appear to have made this game "hard" is by making everything do so much damage. (There's no reason my walking into a stationary boulder should do a full heart's worth of damage, but here we are...)

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

I do kinda dislike how precise you sometimes have to be to use stasis or the magnet on things sometimes. Not that it's a super common issue, but it happens enough that like, I try to use either on something and it just doesn't work because the thing is moving and I apparently didn't get timing right. Which is fine, but it's not always clear that it's I messed up versus when you can't actually use that power.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

So...do you like the game or does it suck?

4 Months ago
Alan

Jet, if you're taking a lot of damage, wear better clothes. Also make sure to upgrade your armor to the max at the fairy fountains.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

I kinda feel about it the way I feel about other Zelda games.

I do like it. And I do mostly have fun. But there's so many individual things that keep bugging me or that I don't love or feels a bit clunky.

As it stands right now, I definitely like it less than Link's Awakening, and I think A Link to the Past is a better Zelda game. I'd probably rank it above Twilight Princess at the moment, and think it does deserve a place at the table for the "Best Zelda" conversation.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

It's like I said somewhere in this monster of a thread: when this game just lets me play it, I really get into it. Exploring is definitely the thing I love most. I enjoy combat on the most part. The puzzle shrines are reasonably gratifying and so far haven't teetered on annoying (something I almost always find with puzzle games or puzzle-heavy games).

But I feel like it just keeps interrupting that to force a particular way to play on me, which I don't really love because I find it kinda clashing with the openness of it. So I'll be super engaged just exploring and climbing a mountain. I'll get disoriented, which I really like, because I wind up being even more invested in my surroundings. But then...it thunderstorms or rains or sandstorms and I have to basically just wait it out for several minutes or just abandon what I was doing (I don't think it does this as bad as, say, Mad Max, but I do find it kinda annoying.)

Largely, that's been my experience with almost every Zelda game, though. There isn't really a Zelda game that I've just looooooved. Every Zelda game has had some elements that are just a little clunky or flawed or kinda annoying.

I guess the way I put it to a co-worker makes sense: I do really like the game! But if you asked me to make a list of things about it that I like versus things about it that I dislike, there are going to be discernibly *more* things I dislike. It's just that the things I like, I *really* like, so there's more weight in that.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

I don't think climbing towers is itself "fun." It's functionally the same to me as climbing radio towers in Far Cry or tall necks in Horizon Zero Dawn or any other open world game that has something like that.

BUT! The two things that I think make me like the towers in Breath of the Wild overall, instead of just feeling indifferent, are:

1. I like that it doesn't put all these side quests on your map. That it mostly just shows you the topography is dope as hell to me. I appreciate that a *lot* more than other open world games where you climb a thing, it removes the fog of war, and then puts every available sidequest on the map for you.

2. As I said, exploration is easily the thing that makes me like this game. And so even though the act of climbing a tower isn't particularly fun to me, I do find it a lot more rewarding because I loooove standing on top and just looking around, finding something interesting, and then leaping off and making my way to that destination. It's a great example of world design, and how mastering that, you don't have to give these weird, often pointless "tangible" rewards like trophies or experience points. I'll take the feeling of looking around the world and finding something neat to go investigate over experience points and an achievement unlocked any day.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Jet, I'm gonna spoil some lightning stuff for you since you seem to think it a negative right now:

- Throwing your metal weapons and shields on the ground will turn the area into an electric trap for enemies that wander in. If it starts lightning near a Bokoblin camp, try it out!
- Ancient gear doesn't attract lightning. Good excuse to wear the ancient armor set as well. You can always replay the combat trials for more weapons.
- The Thunder Helm attracts lightning repeatedly and strikes any enemies near you. And it protects you from the blast as well. Haven't used it in battle yet, but could be interesting.

I think instead of looking for things you don't like, if you just manage it, the game will be a lot more fun. Use those things to your advantage. And when you get Revali's Gale, you can reach extraordinary heights without climbing. The game does give you options, in fact it gives you some really powerful and incredible options. You just have to adjust a bit.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

So like, tonight, I was on a tower, looked around and saw a reasonable path to another tower. So I decided I'd spend some time and take the trek to that other tower just because. There also looked to be some other interesting stuff to look at along the way. Somewhere along the lines, I got disoriented, had to scramble a bit when I ran into some enemies, then climbed a nearby mountain to get some "high ground" to get my bearings. And when I did that, I found I was near another tower, so I opted to hit up that one first. After that, I noticed a nearby shrine, so I figured, hey, might as well hit that up while I'm here. And on the way to that, stumbled into a bit of an ambush from enemies that hit *hard.* So I was scrambling and trying to run away while my shield shattered and my sword broke. I still very much don't love weapon degradation in this game, but it was a veeeery Dark Souls moment, which I appreciated to a degree. Mostly because I somehow managed to pull one enemy and fight one-on-one before the other enemies came in. So by the skin of my teeth I made it through that before sneaking my way past a couple other enemies to get to the shrine. And then just before the shrine, there was a memory I wasn't even looking for!

I don't love always feeling like I have to scramble in a fight because things break so comparatively quickly, but I do love stretches like that where I'm like, "Wow. This was a very productive night of playing, and I didn't even accomplish what I set out to do!"

THAT'S the feeling I get from this game that makes me super impressed with it as an open world game. And THAT'S when I'm almost "lost in" the game itself (to borrow a cliche). And more or less, that's every time I pick the game up. There's always a bunch of things I run into that I roll my eyes at and get annoyed by, but overall, from start to finish, I'm having a good time with it.

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

That pretty much sums up the game. You set out to do one thing, then get sidetracked with dozens of other things that are better/more interesting, and you end up accomplishing more than you expected. Whenever I see a dragon I always make an attempt for the horns. I keep a couple golden bows just in case.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Are there areas where the weather never changes? Like, spots where it just rains nonstop forever? Been standing in this spot waiting for the rain to cease for literally 5 minutes and I can't tell if this is futile or if it will change?

4 Months ago
Jet Presto

Sounds like you're in Faron woods. That area rains persistently. It's deliberately very difficult to climb. You can't do it without Revali's Gale.

That, and the road to Zora's Domain before defeating Waterblight, and a very specific environmental shrine quest are the only persistent downpours.

4 Months ago
mariomguy

Ok! I've climbed all the towers! Weirdly feel kinda bummed about it. Really enjoyed hitting those up (despite the tedium of the climbing itself).

A few quality of life things I hope get spruced up for the next game: a filter for the map, and not having to hold the arrow key for their version of "quick change" of weapons. On the map, there's so much I wanna keep track of, but the more I mark on my map, the more of just a total mess it winds up looking. I wish they allowed you to filter the icons. So like if I just wanna go back and find all the areas that seem like you need to shoot things with a bow and arrow, I could just filter to the bow icon I've been using to mark those. Or like to go back and fight the rock monsters, I wish I could filter for whatever icon I select for them. It's just very cluttered and makes it kind of hard to read. So I hope they add a filter for the next game.

And if they're not gonna do an automatic weapon switch when a weapon breaks, I hope that the next game at least gives you the ability to change controls so that tapping the key pad brings up that quick change menu instead of having to hold it down while you select. Feel like those two small things would go a long way to making it feel a little smoother.

3 Months ago
Jet Presto

One thing I haven't touched upon, but have been noticing more and more, is the level of detail with a lot of like, AI characters/enemies. There's just so many interesting behaviors of enemies out in the field that sometimes I find myself just pausing to watch what's going on. Might be the first time I've been genuinely super impressed with the animation in a Zelda game. (Not that I think past Zeldas had bad animation.)

3 Months ago
Jet Presto

Last thought of the night as I stop for the day:

While I prefer getting heart vessels from beating dungeon bosses in previous games, I think the shrines and orbs is better than collecting heart pieces in previous games.

3 Months ago
Jet Presto

BoTW's AI is incredible. I wish more enemies spawned without weapons, because they'll do a lot more interesting things! They'll look around and grab whatever they can. Steal a bokoblin weapon, they will reach for an explosive barrel and end up blowing themselves in the process! Steal a moblin weapon, and it will pick up a bokoblin to hurl at you! Yes, some enemies will hurl each other!

3 Months ago
mariomguy

While I prefer getting heart vessels from beating dungeon bosses in previous games, I think the shrines and orbs is better than collecting heart pieces in previous games.

I agree, being able to choose between increasing health or stamina let’s the player feel like they are in control of how Link evolves.

3 Months ago
Q

I do miss bosses though. I hope next game, they include some more traditional dungeons/bosses around that reward you with a heart container. (I've run into these like, rock monsters and those are the only "bosses" I've encountered, but mostly I've just run away because I'm pretty sure they'll just one-hit kill me at this point. What do you get for beating them?)

3 Months ago
Jet Presto

Jet... literally everything you want is in the main game. Talk with Impa, then go to the divine beasts.

If you beat a rock talus, you get a bunch of gemstones. If you beat a Hinox, you usually get royal weapons along with a bunch of fruits, meat, or fish. If you beat a Lynel, you get their weapons, possibly a star fragment, and their guts/hoof. Killing a molduga also gets you royal weapons and a bunch of Molduga parts. The parts for many of these are needed up upgrade armor with the Great Faries, but a lot of what you get can be sold for money.

3 Months ago
mariomguy

3 Months ago
Q

I do miss bosses though. I hope next game, they include some more traditional dungeons/bosses around that reward you with a heart container.

The divine beasts have more traditional bosses at the end that reward you with abilities.

I've run into these like, rock monsters and those are the only "bosses" I've encountered, but mostly I've just run away because I'm pretty sure they'll just one-hit kill me at this point. What do you get for beating them?

not sure how many hearts you have or what level your armor is at but they shouldn’t one-hit kill you. You get stones and stuff you can use to upgrade your armor.

3 Months ago
Q

Gotcha. Yeah, I assumed there were bosses or boss-like fights in the Divine Beasts, but that's still only four.

3 Months ago
Jet Presto

You're wandering the map and complaining you're not getting the stuff you'd get from the story...

3 Months ago
mariomguy

This is by no means a complaint, but I think it's kiiinda funny that almost everything the game lets you press X to skip are like, the small 8 second animations. Like cooking, or going down the shrine. It's just funny to me that half the time they let you skip something, it just saves you a few seconds. (Skipping the blood moon cutscene is definitely useful, though.)

3 Months ago
Jet Presto

And I bet speedrunners make a game of pressing x at the right time. I honestly think some things in the game were designed to aid speedrunners. Like, if you just did things a certain way, and did them perfectly, it would work.

3 Months ago
mariomguy

Oooooook Trying to get these stupid shock arrows while a lynel basically one-shots me the whole time is maybe *the* most frustrating and unfun thing I've had to do in a Zelda game so far. The physics of his arrows are buck wild. He's apparently Hawkeye, with a little bit of Daredevil with how easily he spots me while I'm crouching and sneaking.

Might have to come back to this. Others told me to start with the Zora area Divine Beast, but it really doesn't feel like I'm supposed to be here right now. (This is kinda what I mean when I say the game is confusing sometimes. Like it tells me to go here and do this, but then it immediately puts me in a fight that is so far above my weight at the moment that my inclination as a player is to think, "Oh, ok, I'm not supposed to be here yet.")

3 Months ago
Jet Presto

Ooooook. Ook. Figured it out. That was kinda Dark Souls-esque arc. Unbelievable frustration, followed by some slow progress, followed by a breakthrough, then victory. Pretty gratifying overall! Looking forward to more of these.

Wish I didn't get a blood moon cutscene in the middle of the fight, but at least it doesn't re-set the fight. So that's good.

Phew!

3 Months ago
Jet Presto

^ Told you the first Lynel was hard! That's actually the easiest one you'll come across in the game. And you don't need to defeat him to grab the arrows, you were "supposed" to sneak around him. When you upgrade your armor and take advantage of more and more systems with better weapons, you'll get strong enough to the point farming becomes a piece of cake.

Good luck on the Zora journey, it's one of the best!

3 Months ago
mariomguy

I recommend that you try to stun a Lynel but shooting it in the face with an arrow, and then rushing in and striking with a 2 handed weapon. I wouldn’t worry about trying to parry his attacks, just try to dodge them at the right moment to get the Flurry Rush. It’s also a good idea to either have a defensive or damage booster buff. When you start getting the abilities from beating the Divine Beasts, defeating Lynels will get easier as they can really help.

3 Months ago
Q

I think part of it too was that I had no idea just how much those buffs really work. I've used elemental resistances, but only really dabbled with attack buffs, and it's kind of hard to tell exactly how much improvement they add outside of a tough fight like that with the lynel. But my god, they change things pretty dramatically. I have 9 hearts, and one hit from the lynel did about 7/7.5 hearts worth of damage. I ate one meal that bolstered my defense by like, one armor icon, and one hit did 3 hearts of damage. It was a HUGE difference.

I was also admittedly resistant to using some of them because they also healed so many hearts that I didn't want to eat them *before* the battle, because I figured I might also want those meals for the healing.

Not sure this fight really convinces me to change too much of my play style though. Like, I've very deliberately not been using most of my better weapons because I've been saving them "in case I *need* them." So the result is I've found a couple decent weapons that I never use, and then just rely on the ones I don't care about and are fine because they're gonna break soon anyway. Same thing with shields. And the same thing is true with meals. I've largely been avoiding defensive and offensive meals because I've been saving them for when I "need" them. Which isn't really how I think they want me to play.

And it took a few times before I recognized that like, ok, if this lynel fight *isn't* meeting my criteria of "when I need them," then nothing was ever gonna meet that criteria to use them.

Except now that I'm on the other side of it, I'm kinda just like...but this justifies my semi-hoarding mentality, actually. Because the main reason I *had* that sword or that shield or those meals was that I *hadn't* been using them at all (besides elemental and occasionally stamina buffs.)

Anyway, as I said, was a very Dark Souls-y arc. Very frustrating in the moment, but as you slowly make some headway, the fight becomes doable, and then you get into the swing of it, and it's actually a mostly fun fight. (Aside from the regular combat disruptions of weapon degradation. The Blood Moon scene was just bad luck.)

3 Months ago
Jet Presto

I think part of it too was that I had no idea just how much those buffs really work. I've used elemental resistances, but only really dabbled with attack buffs, and it's kind of hard to tell exactly how much improvement they add outside of a tough fight like that with the lynel. But my god, they change things pretty dramatically. I have 9 hearts, and one hit from the lynel did about 7/7.5 hearts worth of damage. I ate one meal that bolstered my defense by like, one armor icon, and one hit did 3 hearts of damage. It was a HUGE difference.

Seems like defense actually does a pretty good job. I focus on attack because I already get better defense from my upgraded armor, and I want my weapons to last. Fewer hits means less breakage. It's a good thing you're using the garbage weapons first, but a Lynel is definitely a good excuse to pull out your best.

I know +++Attack does 50% extra damage.

I've largely been avoiding defensive and offensive meals because I've been saving them for when I "need" them. Which isn't really how I think they want me to play.

No. The whole reason they let you have an unlimited materials inventory is so you can cook more whenever you need to. It's not like other RPGs, "I need to save this later." You'll run into a cooking pot eventually, and when you do you can replenish.

Anyway, as I said, was a very Dark Souls-y arc. Very frustrating in the moment, but as you slowly make some headway, the fight becomes doable, and then you get into the swing of it, and it's actually a mostly fun fight. (Aside from the regular combat disruptions of weapon degradation. The Blood Moon scene was just bad luck.)

Protip, if your weapon is breaking, throw it in the face. Thrown weapons do double damage, and breaking does double. If you throw a Royal Claymore that normally does 52 damage, throwing a breaking strike to the face will do 208! With a triple attack boost, 312! With the ancient armor and an ancient double axe, 648! It's really important to take advantage of everything the game throws at you. I'm glad you're starting to see that in the Lynel fights. Just FYI, every enemy and boss in the game is really easy once you figure out how to beat them.

3 Months ago
mariomguy

I cant wait to tackle every other champion and come back to fight that force Lyenel. I am going to beat it like a drum.

3 Months ago
S.O.H.

I'm glad you still do get heart containers after beating the Divine Beast bosses. I definitely prefer the combo of bosses/shrines to bosses/figuring out incredibly obtuse things to get heart pieces.

I know I've only done one of these so far, but the Divine Beast is fine as a dungeon I guess? It didn't really feel like a typical Zelda dungeon. And was way shorter than most others. It's funny that the boss was one of the easiest enemies I've fought all game! Ha. (Hyperbole, but it deeeefinitely was easier than some other fights, not even factoring in the lynel.) But the shorter, kinda different-feeling aspect of it doesn't mean "bad." It's just different.

We'll see how the other three go! But I suspect I'll wish that there were maybe more of these things and fewer shrines.

3 Months ago
Jet Presto

Loooove the design of these beasts, like visually. The cutscene after was dope (well, apart from the dialogue).

3 Months ago
Jet Presto

See? The beasts had what you wanted! Bigger dungeons, boss fights... but you upgraded your health so much that most of them will be easy, now. I confronted Waterblight with only 5 hearts and no upgraded armor... now THAT was a tough battle. Imagine the Lynel with only 5 hears. I think it's cool that you can control the beasts to solve puzzles. They are indeed very open-ended, so as long as you don't get stuck it's easy.

And yeah. That cutscene was very dope.

3 Months ago
mariomguy

It's funny that the boss was one of the easiest enemies I've fought all game!

Definitely one of the bigger problems with the game. The balance when exploring feels fair. Yeah, sometimes you're going to run into a Guardian or Lynel or whatever when you're unprepared, but I'm cool with that. It makes the world feel real. But they had to input some attempt at a difficulty curve on the bosses, and if you've mucked around for too long, the bosses are an unsatisfying joke.

And, spoilers, but this applies to the final boss as well.

But I suspect I'll wish that there were maybe more of these things and fewer shrines.

I feel like some kind of alien whenever anyone talks about BotW. I think it's partly because I've hated every other Zelda game I've played and I really enjoyed BotW, so my perspective is a lot different from most people's. But I greatly prefer the shrines to traditional Zelda dungeons. It's true that a lot of the shrines are bullshit padding, but the real ones are just better than overly long dungeons. I also prefer the shorter Divine Beast dungeons to traditional Zelda dungeons. Maybe I'm just a low attention span zoomer or something. I dunno. Dungeons just always feel like a slog to me and I'll take a quick puzzle over them any day.

3 Months ago
The Bandit

Yeah, that's fair, and I can definitely understand that.

I just kinda want at least a few dungeons that I can really sink my teeth into. Don't *only* want dungeons that take me two days to figure out (I feel like there could be a balance between 15/20 minute things or a dungeon that takes just an hour instead of two hours). I do appreciate being able to get through shrines pretty quickly, and that the Divine Beast didn't take two days of playing to get through. But I do also like kinda spending some time in a dungeon.

I do like the shrines, too. Just kinda wish there were a bit more of a variety in that regard. Maybe the Divine Beasts are like 20-30 minute romps, and then you put in optional, more traditional, longer dungeons that players don't *have* to do, but maybe provide some more insight into the history or lore of the world and yield another boss and some gear on top of another heart container.

3 Months ago
Jet Presto

Don't want to spoil it, but Hyrule Castle is pretty large, and you can choose to attempt it in any way you want. There are secret rooms and passageways, dozens of areas to explore, and some really cool and nifty weapons to find. So if you play the main story you'll get the dungeons and exploring you like. But yeah, only 4 Divine Beasts, only one Hyrule Castle (but it's a big one), and most of the shrines are fairly short, and everything is very open-ended. There are some maze puzzles as well, and plenty of puzzles in the overworld. But the purpose of BoTW is to be more open-ended than dungeon-heavy. Instead of having so many of those long linear levels, you kind of have more seamless puzzles in the adventure. Once you beat the game, you'll probably come across more interesting and fascinating things.

3 Months ago
mariomguy

Definitely at the point in this game where I'm having to refer to a guide online. This is not a knock on the game, to be clear. This is absolutely a staple of Zelda games.

I think we're at the point where I like it as much as I'm going to. Not that I think I'll like it less as I continue to play, but now that just wandering around isn't so much a factor in the game, my love of it has kind of stopped growing, too. (Not that it's *not* a part of it, but now it's a lot of side quests and story missions, which - to me - kind of takes away from the thing I loved the most, which was just roaming and exploring to my hearts' content.)

So I think when all is said and done, BotW is one of the better open world games I've ever played, for sure. But I think a fair number of my criticisms overall, structurally, are going to be very similar to pretty much every other open world game I've played.

3 Months ago
Jet Presto