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Worldbuilding

Adpihi and Reptigan Naming Customs

Posted 2 Weeks ago by chiarizio

I think I’ve covered their clan names adequately elsewhere.
Every Adpihi and every Reptigan human has a five-part “official” name.
That’s what I’ll start out talking about.
There is more; birthdate names and “nicknames” and so on.
But I’ll start with the official names.
....
Matriclan (“milk-house”) + Patriclan (“blood-path”) + Alterclan (“spirit-robe”) are the three clan names inherited from parents which every full-sibling of the same sex must share.
....
Then there are two-part individual names.
....
Naturally we don’t want anyone to have the same individual name as one of their parents or one of their siblings.
For the second parts of their individual names (henceforth “second names” for short) we solve this by naming kids after their parents’ parents and their parents’ siblings.
Obviously that might lead to a bunch of first cousins with the same second name.

For the first names we also try to avoid anyone having the same name as their grandparents’ parent or grandparents’ sibling.
To do that we name kids after their parents’ grandparents’ parents or parents’ grandparents’ siblings.
Clearly that just spreads the cousin problem to second-cousins too.
....
But if they get their first name from the lineal and collateral ancestors of one parent, and their second name from the lineal and collateral ancestors of the other parent, they’re unlikely to have exactly the same combination of first name plus second name as anyone else in their generation of their family.

...

So that’s how it’s done.

Boys’ first names are copied from the first names of their fathers’ greatgrandfathers and granduncles;
Boys’ second names are copied from the second names of their mothers’ grandfathers and uncles.

Girls’ first names are copied from the first names of their mothers’ greatgrandmothers and grandaunts;
Girls’ second names are copied from the second names of their fathers’ grandmothers and aunts.

....

There still might be a chance of duplication if two men who share a greatgrandfather or a granduncle marry two women who share a grandfather or an uncle; or if two women who share a greatgrandmother or a grandaunt marry two men who share a grandmother or an aunt.

So they need to be careful if they’re considering that.

There are 8 Replies


A second purpose to the system mentioned above is to preserve the use of the lineal or collateral ancestors’ names in the clan (patriclan or matriclan at least, don’t know about alterclan .)
....
Now is a good time to mention that there are seven disjoint pools of names.
Matriclan (milk-house) names;
Patriclan (blood-path) names;
Alterclan (spirit-robe) names;
Masculine first names;
Masculine second names;
Feminine first names;
Feminine second names.

No name is in two or more of those seven pools.
It has been canon so far that there are 143 names of each type, for a total of 1001 names.

....

With certain exceptions, the default thing to do is this:
A father gives his son the same first name as the longest-deceased of his greatgrandfathers who does not already have a greatgreatgrandson named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the longest-deceased of his granduncles who does not already have a greatgrandnephew named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the oldest of his greatgrandfathers who does not already have a greatgreatgrandson named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the oldest of his granduncles who does not already have a greatgrandnephew named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the longest-deceased of his greatgrandfathers who does not already have two greatgreatgrandsons named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the longest-deceased of his granduncles who does not already have two greatgrandnephews named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the oldest of his greatgrandfathers who does not already have two greatgreatgrandsons named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the oldest of his granduncles who does not already have two greatgrandnephews named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son some other first name.

...

It’s similar for mothers giving their daughters first names.

...

2 Weeks ago
chiarizio
 



....

About the exceptions.
These apply only to first names, and only to FFFs’ and SSSSes’ and MMMs’ and DDDDs’ first names.

It is very important that at least two of a man’s SSSes name a son after their FFF.
So every S1S1S1 (first son’s first son’s first son) names his own S1 after his FFF.
The FFF needs two SSSS greatgreatgrandson namesakes. So every S1S1S2 (first son’s first son’s second son) and every S1S2S1 and every S2S1S1 (second son’s first son’s first son) is also expected to name their own S1 after their FFF.
If their FFF has any other SSS greatgrandsons, and by the time one of them has a first son their FFF does not yet have a second SSSS greatgreatgrandson named after him, one of these will likely name his first son after his FFF.

The same kind of thing applies to MMMs and DDDs.


2 Weeks ago
chiarizio
 

Other possible traditions about the first names are not as strict.
One may do “the default thing” instead.
But here are some:

For fathers;
If you’re your MFF’s S1D1S1, you should try to name a son after your MFF if you get the chance.
If you’re your FMF’s D1S1S1, you should try to name a son after your FMF if you get the chance.
If you’re your MMF’s D1D1S1, you should try to name a son after your MMF if you get the chance.

If you’re your FFB1’s (father’s father’s oldest brother) B1S1S1 (oldest brother’s first son’s first son), you should try to name a son after your FFB1 if you get the chance.
If you’re your MFB1’s B1D1S1, you should try to name a son after your MFB1 if you get the chance.
If you’re your FMB1’s Z1S1S1 (oldest sister’s first son’s first son), you should try to name a son after your FMB1 if you get the chance.
And so on.

.....

For mothers:


....

2 Weeks ago
chiarizio
 

There are similar customs concerning second names.

Consider a mother giving her son the same second name as one of her own grandfathers or uncles.
With certain (possible) exceptions, the default thing to do is this:
A mother gives her son the same second name as the longest-deceased of her grandfathers who does not already have a greatgrandson named after him (unless that mother has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a mother gives her son the same second name as the longest-deceased of her uncles who does not already have a grandnephew named after him (unless that mother has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a mother gives her son the same second name as the oldest of her grandfathers who does not already have a greatgrandson named after him (unless that mother has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a mother gives her son the same second name as the oldest of her uncles who does not already have a grandnephew named after him (unless that mother has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a mother gives her son the same second name as the longest-deceased of her grandfathers who does not already have two greatgrandsons named after him (unless that mother has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a mother gives her son the same second name as the longest-deceased of her uncles who does not already have two grandnephews named after him (unless that mother has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a mother gives her son the same second name as the oldest of her grandfathers who does not already have two greatgrandsons named after him (unless that mother has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a mother gives her son the same second name as the oldest of her uncles who does not already have two grandnephews named after him (unless that mother has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a mother gives her son some other second name.

....

Consider a father giving his daughter the same second name as one of his own grandmothers or aunts.


....

Since second names are never assigned along purely father-to-son chains nor purely mother-to-daughter chains, there is not the pressure on firstborn children of firstborn children, to preserve specific ancestors’ or ancestresses’ second names, that there is on for instance S1S1S1s to preserve their FFF’s first name, or on D1D1D1s to preserve their MMM’s first name.
(Those first-name pressures usually override “the default order”. Second-name pressures seldom do so.)

Nevertheless there’s a bit of naming etiquette that people would rather abide by if they can.

About mothers giving their sons their second names.
If you’re your FF’s S1D1, you should try to name one of your sons after your FF when you get the chance.
If you’re your MF’s D1D1, you should try to name one of your sons after your MF when you get the chance.
If you’re your FB1’s B1D1, you should try to name one of your sons after your FB1 when you get the chance.
If you’re your MB1’s Z1D1, you should try to name one of your sons after your MB1 when you get the chance.
If you’re your FB2’s B1D1, you should try to name one of your sons after your FB2 when you get the chance.
If you’re your MB2’s Z1D1, you should try to name one of your sons after your MB2 when you get the chance.
If you’re your FB3’s B1D1, you should try to name one of your sons after your FB3 when you get the chance.
And so on.

.....

About fathers giving their daughters their second names.



All of these, in this entire thread so far, are subject to the requirements that no one should ever have the same first name nor the same second name as one of their parents or one of their siblings.

I also don’t want any boy to get the same first name as the boy’s F or FF or FFF;
don’t want any girl to get the same first name as the girl’s M or MM or MMM;
don’t want any boy to get the same second name as the boy’s F or FF;
and don’t want any girl to get the same second name as the girl’s M or MM.

....

....

2 Weeks ago
chiarizio
 

A father gives his son the same first name as the longest-deceased of his greatgrandfathers who does not already have a greatgreatgrandson named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the longest-deceased of his granduncles who does not already have a greatgrandnephew named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the oldest of his greatgrandfathers who does not already have a greatgreatgrandson named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the oldest of his granduncles who does not already have a greatgrandnephew named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the longest-deceased of his greatgrandfathers who does not already have two greatgreatgrandsons named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the longest-deceased of his granduncles who does not already have two greatgrandnephews named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the oldest of his greatgrandfathers who does not already have two greatgreatgrandsons named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the oldest of his granduncles who does not already have two greatgrandnephews named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).
Otherwise a father gives his son some other first name.


Each father has exactly 4 greatgrandfathers and a variable number of granduncles (depending on how many siblings each of his 2 grandfathers have).

Assuming he has no granduncles, then the rules would actually look like this:


A father gives his son the same first name as the longest-deceased of his greatgrandfathers who does not already have a greatgreatgrandson named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).

Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the oldest of his greatgrandfathers who does not already have a greatgreatgrandson named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).

Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the longest-deceased of his greatgrandfathers who does not already have two greatgreatgrandsons named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).

Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the oldest of his greatgrandfathers who does not already have two greatgreatgrandsons named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).

Otherwise a father gives his son some other first name.


Now the rules here depend on whether he has greatgrandfathers that are still alive or not. If they're all dead (likely, unless these are long-lived people or something), then the rules get simplified further:


A father gives his son the same first name as the longest-deceased of his greatgrandfathers who does not already have a greatgreatgrandson named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).

Otherwise a father gives his son the same first name as the longest-deceased of his greatgrandfathers who does not already have two greatgreatgrandsons named after him (unless that father has already given a son that name).

Otherwise a father gives his son some other first name.


However in this case the longest-deceased greatgrandfather is the same exact person, so in this particular case, the father can name exactly one of his sons after some member of the family before having to pick a new name. At that point, each of the father's brothers would have the same exact problem with the other 3 greatgrandparents in turn. If the original father had a 5th brother, he'd have to pick a new name for every single son.

Unless I'm missing something here.

2 Weeks ago
Riven
 

Yes, in the extra-simplified case where none of a father’s grandparents ever had any brothers, and all of them had deceased before the father has any sons, the father would run through his FFF* and MFF and FMF and MMF in order* from longest-dead to most-recently-dead and then have to look elsewhere; maybe collateral male ancestors of a later generation such as FBs or MBs, or lineal (or collateral) male ancestors of earlier generations such as FFFF** MFFF FMFF MMFF FFMF MFMF FMMF MMMF (or PPPBs where P is either F or M). He’d want to avoid naming his son after himself or his F or his FF.

  • * If the father is his FFF’s S1S1S1 or S1S1S2 or S1S2S1 or S2S1S1, he’d want to name his own S1 after his FFF regardless what the order-of-death was.

  • ** If the father is named for his own father’s FFF — for instance if he happens to be an S1S1S1S1 — he won’t want to name his son after his FFFF because that’s his own name.

    ....

    And as you say if a father (let’s say he’s an S1) has two brothers (let’s say they’re an S2 and an S3), and they all share exactly the same four greatgrandfathers, and none has any granduncles, then they’ll be racing each other to use the first two namesake slots for each of those greatgrandfathers.
    Say S1 names S1S1 after their FFF
    Then S2 names S2S1 after their MFF
    Then S3 names S3S1 after their FMF
    Then S1 names S1S2 after their MMF
    Then S2 names S2S2 after their FFF
    Then S3 names S3S2 after their MFF
    Then S1 names S1S3 after their FMF
    Then S2 names S2S3 after their MMF
    Then S3S3 is born and what will S3 name him? He can pick any name. It doesn’t have to be the name of a lineal or collateral ancestor of S3 nor even of S3S3’s mom. It’ll likely be the name of one of S3S3’s deceased relatives, and likely won’t be the name of any of S3S3’s living relatives, but it could be any of the 143 masculine first names in the culture.

    ....

    We prioritize the father’s FFF, if the father is an S1S1S1 or an S1S1S2 or an S1S2S1 or an S2S1S1.
    Within that, we prioritize the father’s FFF if he doesn’t already have two SSSS namesakes.
    Within that, we prioritize those who don’t already have a namesake over those who do; and those who don’t already have two namesakes over those who do.
    Within that, we prioritise the deceased over the living.
    Within that, we prioritise the greatgrandfathers over the granduncles.
    Within that, we prioritise the longest-deceased over the more-recently-deceased.
    Within that, we prioritise the older over the younger.

    .....

    Remember that there’s a possibility two fathers who are each other’s brothers might not have all the same greatgrandfathers.
    Even more likely a group of three or four or five brothers might not all have the same four GGFs.
    Even if they do share all four GGFs they might not share all the same four grandparents; like what if the first brother’s MM and the youngest brother’s MM are each other’s agnate half-sisters?

    ....

    Also the birth-order sequences might not be the same for different GGFs.
    Like suppose I’m my FFF’s S1S1S1.
    I might not be my MFF’s S1D1S1. My MF might not be my MFF’s S1. Even if he is my M might not be my MF’s D1. Even if she is I might not be my M’s S1.
    I might not be my FMF’s D1S1S1. My FM might not be my FMF’s D1. Even if she is my F might not be her S1. (I am his S1 though!)
    I might not be my MMF’s D1D1S1. My MM might not be my MMF’s D1. Even if she is my M might not be my MM’s D1. And so on.

    .....

    The probability that none of a father’s four grandparents ever had any brothers is smallish.
    Assume each of his grandparents comes from a three-child family, or otherwise has two siblings.
    Odds that each of his grandparents had no brother are 25%. So odds none of the four had even one brother are 1 in 256, or 0.390625%, less than 0.4%.
    Even if one grandparent had no siblings at all and the other three had only one sibling each, odds that none of those were a brother is only 12.5%.

    ....

    It is definitely true that when two only-children (that is, two sibling-less individuals) marry each other, it raises the possibility of producing a glitch or complexity in the system at some later date.

    ....

    Thanks for looking at this!

    Was my post clear?

  • 2 Weeks ago
    chiarizio
     

    Imagine the following situation.
    Two people, a man I’ll call H and a woman I’ll call W, marry each other, and nobody else. Ever.

    Imagine H is an only child. That is he is both his father HF’s only child and his mother HM’s only child.
    Suppose W is also an only child. She is both her father WF’s only child and her mother WM’s only child.

    And I’ll take it further.
    Suppose HF is an only child too, the only child of his father HFF and of his mother HFM.
    And likewise all the other parents of the couple (HM and WF and WM) are the only children of the other grandparents of the couple.

    So now we have two only children of only children marrying.

    Suppose H and W have nine sons and nine daughters together. Unlikely but possible!
    How will they choose their children’s second names?

    For instance H is supposed to give their first daughter D1 his grandmother HMM’s second name, and give their second daughter D2 his other grandmother HFM’s second name, but what about their third daughter D3? H does not have any aunts HMZ nor HFZ to name D3 after.
    And W doesn’t have any uncles WFB or WMB to name their S3 after.

    2 Weeks ago
    chiarizio
     

    As far as first names go:

    Any son’s son’s son (SSS) will name his own first son (S1) after his (the SSS’s) father’s father’s father (FFF) unless that FFF already has at least two namesake SSSS great-great-grandsons, regardless of who among his greatgrandfathers or granduncles is living or deceased, and regardless of how many namesake greatgreatgrandsons or greatgrandnephews each has named after him.
    An S1S1S1 (first son’s first son’s first son) will name his own S1 after his FFF even if his FFF does already have two namesake SSSS GGGrandsons named after him.
    After that responsibility has been taken care of, then they’ll start prioritizing the names by number of namesakes, life status, and generation, as mentioned above.

    Any daughter’s daughter’s daughter (DDD) will name her own first daughter (D1) after her (the DDD’s) mother’s mother’s mother (MMM) unless that MMM already has at least two namesake DDDD great-great-granddaughters, regardless of who among her greatgrandmothers or grandaunts is living or deceased, and regardless of how many namesake greatgreatgranddaughters or greatgrandnieces each has named after her.
    A D1D1D1 (first daughter’s first daughter’s first daughter) will name her own D1 after her MMM even if her MMM does already have two namesake DDDD GGGranddaughters named after her.
    After that responsibility has been taken care of, then they’ll start prioritizing the names by number of namesakes, life status, and generation, as mentioned above.

    ...

    As far as second names go:

    Each parent will begin immediately naming their children-of-the-opposite-sex after their (the parent’s) appropriate-sex grandparents and auncles, in the order mentioned above, prioritizing those who have no namesake over those who do, those who have only one namesake over those who have two or more, those who are deceased over those who are living, the longest deceased over the most recently deceased, the oldest living over the youngest, and grandparents over aunts-or-uncles.

    1 Week ago
    chiarizio
     

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