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Minigame 4 - Feedback Thread
Posted: Posted August 6th, 2015
Edited August 6th, 2015 by Count Dooku

Hello players and spectators! This is the feedback thread for Minigame 4.

Congratulations to Xhin on his victory!

Please feel free to leave any thoughts, commentary, criticism, or questions here. I appreciate honesty, so don't feel the need to censor yourself.

I have copied the end-of-round posts into their own thread, to provide a snapshot of the game if anyone is interested. This can be found here:

[Minigame 4 - Story + Epilogue ]

I will post my thoughts below.

There are 16 Replies

First off, I would like to thank everyone who participated in this game. It was fun to host and see how you played out the scenario I had developed.

I also want to thank you for being patient with the round updates. I ended up having two vacations during the hosting of this game, and I missed a few update times as a result.

Anyway, here are some things I noticed:

  • I think some of the game mechanics could have been more clear. For example - one player took a heavy vehicle frame early on and never equipped any armor. As a result, they had a -20 to speed rolls and no defensive benefit! They would have been far better off going with a light frame if they didn't intend to use armor.

  • The damage system wasn't handled overly well. Pretty much everything dealt minor damage, and it took 5 minor damage hits to kill someone. Add in the fact that you (potentially) had access to 2 minor heals every garage round, and the game ended up being much less of a minigame. Also...

  • Random numbers suck. For a variety of reasons. A big part of why the game was so drawn out was that the BASE defense rolls were constantly higher than the BASE attack rolls, and there was nothing I could do about it. So there were a lot of times where you attacked someone and nothing happened, and even entire rounds where no one was hurt by anything.

  • In addition to random numbers sucking, consumable items (think: heat seeker missile) often failed to roll high enough to do damage. Ideally, you'd get SOMETHING for having spent your money on these items.

  • There was no reason to split you out into different rooms from the get-go, with so few players. Hence why I destroyed the Industrial Park once everyone got to the Junkyard. I should have opted for a more detailed, 'bigger' Junkyard.

  • There may have been some confusion over my statement that you couldn't 'sneak' in this game. I didn't mean that you weren't allowed to do actions in sneak mode (one player thought this), I just meant it would generally be hard to go invisible/disappear like you can in other adventure games.

    ---

    Thoughts for the future:

    Assuming anyone has any interest in this scenario (far in the future, mind you), here are some things I'd do differently:

  • Tweak the buffs on weapons. Attack buffs should generally be cheaper to get than equivalent defense buffs.

  • Lose the random numbers for MOST things, and use a proper health system (out of 100). Most attacks would deal SOME damage, while only very poor attack rolls would fail to hit. Defense would help mitigate damage instead of completely preventing it (unless the roll is really good!). That way you'll only waste an expensive item if you get a really bad roll.

  • Lower the availability of healing items.

    ---

    Other than that, I have a few questions:

    1. How did you feel about the 'restricted' nature of this gametype as opposed to the more open/freeform style of most Adventure games?

    2. Was it acceptable to have just on room? Would you have wanted multiple different arenas to go to?

    3. What, if anything, confused you during this game?

    4. Did the 'Garage Rounds' break the flow of gameplay too much (pulling you out of combat, etc)?

    5. How can I be a better host if/when I host again?

    6. If you didn't play, would you have wanted to play based on what you saw?

    Thanks!

  • Edited August 6th, 2015 by Count Dooku
    Count Dooku

    I feel like we've drifted too far away from the open adventure feel in general. Helius should have won, his strategy was brilliant (I considered it myself but couldn't figure out how to force helius close to me) but he was screwed by the RNG in ways that didn't make sense really (how does a nuke fail to hit stuff?). Meanwhile things like deflated tires or head-on rammings into molten pits seemed to have very little effect.

    I propose that we come up with a better way of doing RNG's and maybe calculating things in like (+50 because how do you miss with a nuke). Maybe a full HP system like you proposed so lots of 10 damages will stack up.

    I have some more specific complaints too, but before I get to those I want to mention that you did an excellent job coming up with scenarios and hosting, and the game aside from those gripes was very fun to play. Especially commendable is solid host activity, which we've had so many issues with with adventure.

    My other complaint is with the items -- most weapons were completely worthless. I blame this mostly on the "5 minor damage" health system and the ease of missing with attacks. Somehow I avoided all kinds of stuff (including a nuke) despite having deflated tires. I invested in lots of heat-seeking missiles because those were good at getting around evasion stuff and usually dealt minor damage (which everything dealt really) and were very cheap too.

    Other experimental weapons seemed interesting (the winch for example) but were too expensive to justify buying and too risky given the track record of other weapons.

    I was pleasantly surprised at the EMP weapon -- that's probably the most powerful weapon in the game if used strategically. I would have liked to have more opportunity to play with different weapons and attachments -- I think there wasn't enough money or garage rounds to really get a feel for the game. Purchasing anything was a huge risk and I'd say I mostly just got lucky with the stuff I picked.

    If there was more money to buy stuff so you could play around with them (and then spend bulk money on upgrades and consumables) then I think players would be a lot more inmovative.

    Also OMG @ duct tapes. When I first bough one I though it would restore *one* point of damage -- given the health system, the cheapness of the duct tapes and how much everyone missed, you could survive a very long time -- and again it came down mostly to luck to see how overpowered they were.

    Posted August 6th, 2015 by Xhin
    Xhin
     

    I propose that we come up with a better way of doing RNG's and maybe calculating things in like (+50 because how do you miss with a nuke).

    Oh, to clarify he didn't miss. The nuke hit you, and would have dealt 3/5 damage. You were at 4/5, so you won because you ended up at 1/5 and your final attack hit Helius because he had a huge defense debuff due to having no vehicle. I didn't bother updating your health since the game had ended - sorry!

    If you hadn't used your duct tape the previous round, you'd have lost when the nuke went off!

    To clarify my clarification: The nuke was an automatic 3 damage if you were in the same area of the person who died. It couldn't be dodged, but it could be survived if you had enough health.

    I think the rest of your feedback is pretty spot on.

    Edited August 6th, 2015 by Count Dooku
    Count Dooku

    Meanwhile things like deflated tires or head-on rammings into molten pits seemed to have very little effect.

    Speed was generally used for melee attacks, such as ramming. It was also used for priority rolls, which determined who went first in the attack order. If you had deflated tires and you found it hard to ram someone into the pit, it's likely because:

    A: A couple players had +25s to their speed, from vehicle frame and a few other things.

    B: A couple players had -20 to their speed at various different times, either from frame or deflated tires. You specifically had a +0 to speed for a lot of the game I think.

    Ramming was sort of a two-part system too. If you passed the speed check (ie: you were going faster than them), you hit and damaged them. A second roll determined how far you pushed them, but this was used situationally (ie: if you were pushing someone into a pit). The reasoning being I didn't want people getting driven into the pit from across the world.

    Here's an example:

    Now let's see how far it goes...

    Xhin:

    20+ for a small hit, 50+ for a medium hit, 80+ for a massive hit.



    Count Dooku rolled a 12!


    If memory serves, even a minor hit would have killed him given the positioning. But... bad rolls were a hinderance again.

    Posted August 6th, 2015 by Count Dooku
    Count Dooku

    Also OMG @ duct tapes. When I first bough one I though it would restore *one* point of damage

    They do only restore one point, but you could buy two per garage round. So you had the potential to heal up to two health every 5 turns or so. It's actually why I decided not to send you and Helius back to the garage once it came down to the finals.

    Edited August 6th, 2015 by Count Dooku
    Count Dooku

    You were at 4/5, so you won because you ended up at 1/5 and your final attack hit Helius because he had a huge defense debuff due to having no vehicle. I didn't bother updating your health since the game had ended - sorry!

    Oh sweet, I didn't realize that.

    Posted August 6th, 2015 by Xhin
    Xhin
     

    Oh okay yeah, a lot of this makes more sense now. I think having a granular health system and items that don't miss as frequently would improve things a lot. You could kind of whittle players down, and you'd need to play more strategically and experimentally so you don't die.

    To answer your specific questions..

    1. It honestly didn't feel restrictive at all, aside from the RNG dependency. You did a good job with some of the more adventure-feeling events -- like the crane that killed Ghowilo or the trailers I smashed into Helius.

    2. I didn't mind this so much because the game genre was different. This game was all about killing your opponents and surviving -- so exploration wasn't really necessary. Although there was a fair bit of that with the items system! Personally I prefer the exploration-heavy adventure games, but that's not a detraction from what you did. This game is very destructive so it doesn't make sense to space players out.

    3. See my points above. Obviously I got confused about the driver vs car thing (I guess the pistol is for if both players have ejected?)

    I also got confused about how the heat-seeking missiles worked. A couple strategies I had were to set things on fire to lure away heat seeking missiles from me or attract them to players.

    Part of the adventure experience for me is using things in innovative ways -- so I was at least happy that the oil slick could be used to blind or get set on fire. Also the molten pit attracting heat seeking missiles was brilliant.

    4. I didn't mind the garage rounds. The game genre probably helped here -- it's a more strategic game, less about hurrying around doing stuff.

    5. I don't see any issues in that department. IIRC you made me conserve ammo when jo Nathan was dead rather than shooting the crater. I think you did an excellent job at hosting.





    Posted August 6th, 2015 by Xhin
    Xhin
     

    Great job Dooku. I keep up with most of the games and enjoyed what I read.

    I feel like we've drifted too far away from the open adventure feel in general


    I agree with this 100%


    Other than that, I have a few questions:

    1. would have preferred open/freeform style of most Adventure games

    2. Could have used a few more room.

    3. Nothing

    4. Yes

    5. You did a great job. Keep up the good work you're a good host.

    6. Yes


    Edited August 6th, 2015 by chiefsonny
    chiefsonny
     

    I didn't realize that we were allowed to "hide" our actions with the sneak mode due to a miscommunication in "sneak being heavily restricted." This, I believe, was a major factor in my death, as I would wait for Xhin and Helius to do their moves so I could react to them, and there would never be anything there and before I knew it the round had updated. This happened on the last two turns before my death. I'm pretty upset by this to the point that I'm thinking of retiring from Adventure altogether.

    Posted August 7th, 2015 by Ghowilo
    Ghowilo

    You did a fine job though Dooku.

    Posted August 7th, 2015 by Ghowilo
    Ghowilo

    I'm pretty upset by this to the point that I'm thinking of retiring from Adventure altogether.


    I'm sure you'll be missed at the next adventure game in, oh, like, ten years or something.

    Unless of course anyone is willing to volunteer is tribute, I mean host.

    Posted August 7th, 2015 by Moonray
    Moonray
     

    I'd like to host if possible. I have a couple of aliens prequel games, plus a simplified version of Aliens & Robots that I want to do at some point...

    Posted August 7th, 2015 by Xhin
    Xhin
     

    I don't have a great track record with hosting complex games, so I've simplified my ideas down a lot.

    Mighty Morphin' Alien Larvae -- you can have up to three superpowers or defenses at a time and evolve new ones ad you go. Arena style (kill all players). Works best with 3+ players.

    The Ranks of Recon -- A cross between exploration and resource management. Works with any number of players (actually plays a bit better with *less* players). Direct up to three streams of units through various areas of the spaceship Carthage, on rescue/escort missions to the core of the ship. This game is all about surviving alien onslaughts and exploring the interior to find the Captain and his Crew.

    Aliens & Robots -- An Aliens game all about subterfuge (since the humans can't detect aliens until they've transformed) and broken robots that give special abilities.

    A&R plays out like a mafia game. As an alien your job is to kill humans without them finding out that you're an alien. You appear totally human until you permanently transform, but the downside is that you can't use any special alien abilities until then, so you have to kill humans other ways.

    As a human it's better if you find scattered parts around the space station to fix robots, because they have special abilities in a mafia-esque way.

    All of my games play out in a more realistic way because I've never been a fan of the RNG'S we use here.

    Posted August 7th, 2015 by Xhin
    Xhin
     

    I do get complaints about the RNG I use from some people.

    The reason I use it (and to be clear I've always envision Adventure as a very sandbox game where hosts can do what they want) is for a couple of reasons.

    1. Simulates D&D a little.

    2. Less need for host (me) and players to understand complex sciency things when a player tries something extremely complicated. Places players on a more even playing field.

    3. Fairness. If two players say -shoots the other player- how do you determine who shot first? How do we determine if they hit something vital or not?

    But yea, if people don't like RNG then they're free to host a game without it :)

    Edited August 11th, 2015 by Moonray
    Moonray
     

    3. Fairness. If two players say -shoots the other player- how do you determine who shot first? How do we determine if they hit something vital or not?

    This can be a host determined calculation with whatever thing they can concoct but for simplicity sake, you could also do it by who posted first. I mean, when RPing you don't normally write actions out of order before the other person has a chance to respond.

    Posted August 14th, 2015 by LLight
    LLight

    sucked

    Posted August 14th, 2015 by Hindenburg
    Hindenburg
    Life's path is never straight.
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