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So-far-unnamed Fantasy Multi-Racial Conworld
Posted: Posted December 26th, 2018 by chiarizio

An Earthlike world inhabited by several realistic(?) species or sub-species or genera, all(?) belonging to the same taxonomic family.

It has Humans just like us for Plains People in its grasslands and savannahs and prairies and steppes.
It has Dwarves for Mine People in its mountain ranges and caves.
It has Elves for its Forest People in its forests and woods.

—————

The reason for the parenthesized question-marks above is;
I also think I might want a Lakes-and-Rivers People; and I think I might want them to be Mer-Centaurs.

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I am going to make the three humanoid species —— Dwarves, Elves, and Humans —— have classificatory Kinship Systems and prescriptive marriage Systems.
I don’t know whether the MerCentaurs will even have anything even resembling marriage; and I can’t get a handle, so far, on their Kinship System.

So far I’ve developed the Kinship and marriage systems for the Plains and Grasslands people best.
Each sex will be divided into twenty sections or classes.
Each person will belong to one and only one patriclan; namely, the one their father belongs or belonged to.
Each person will belong to one and only one matriiclan; namely, the one their mother belongs or belonged to.
Each person will also belong to one and only one sibling-in-law “circle”, determined at birth.

There are five patriclans, and five matriclans, and four sibling-in-law circles.

Every patriclan will contain four sections of each sex.
Each man in each patriclan is in the same section his father’s father’s father’s father (FFFF) is/was in.
Each man’s son is in the same section the man’s FFF is/was in.
Each man’s SS (son’s son) is or will be in the same section the man’s FF is/was in.
Each man’s SSS will be in the same section the man’s father was in.

No one can marry a member of their own patriclan.
A man also can’t marry a woman from his mother’s patriclan; nor his father’s mother’s patriclan; nor his FFM’s matriclan.
Instead, a man must marry a woman from his FFFM’s patriclan.
The men in any patriclan will take turns, by generation, rotating through marrying wives from the other four patriclans.

Likewise, each matriclan will contain four sections of each sex; defined by generation.
The women in each matriclan will rotate thru, by generation, a cycle of which of the other four matriclans to find husbands from.
A woman can’t marry a man from her own matriclan; nor from her father’s matriclan; nor from her MF’s matriclan; nor from her MMF’s matriclan.
Instead she must marry a man from her MMMF’s matriclan.

A man, his wife’s brother (WB), his sister’s husband (ZH), his WBWB, and his ZHZH, must be from five different patriclans.
But his WBWBWB will be from the same section as his ZHZH, and his ZHZHZH will be from the same section as his WBWB.
In other words, his WBWBW and his ZHZHZ will be classificatory “sisters” to each other. They could be actual sisters; or, even, the same woman.

Similarly, a woman’s brother’s wife (BW), husband’s sister HZ, BWBW, and HZHZ, must all be from different matriclans.
But her BWBWB and her HZHZH might be the same guy; or might be each other’s brothers. They definitely must be from the same section, equivalently they must be each other’s classificatory “brothers”.

—————

All three humanoid species will have such a five-patriclan five-matriclan four-sibling-in-law-circle prescriptive marriage system, and such a twenty-class-per-sex classificatory Kinship Systems.

I think the three humanoid races might put different emphases and uses on patriclans vs matriclans from each other.
Or even, different subcultures within each “race” may use them differently.

Plains People (“Humans”) will include many multi-generational nomadic families, including caravan families.
All the men in each band or caravan will belong to the same patriclan.
People will wear tattoos and clothes to tell which patriclan and which matriclan they are from.
This will apply more to patriclans than to matriclans, and more to men than to women.
A woman will leave her father’s and brothers’ band and join her husband’s band when she marries. She’s likely to switch to wearing clothing appropriate to her husband’s patriclan. That way anyone who sights the band from a distance can tell which patriclan the men in that band belong to.
But from inside the band’s camp, someone would be able to tell, from looking at any of them, which matriclan that person was born into; and to tell by sight which patriclan any of their women were born into.

—————

Dwarves are likely to view caves and valleys and mines as feminine, but to view spelunking and mining as masculine activities.
Dwarves won’t tattoo themselves.
I dont know whether dwarves will regard matriclans as more important than patriclans, or vice versa, or will regard both as equally important.
I think, though, their women might be matrilocal, and their men might be uxorilocal.

—————

While Elves will in fact tattoo themselves, it will be for camouflage.
If Elves are mostly matrilocal, then, since one might tell from an Elf’s tattoos and clothes the kind of flora s/he lives among, one might also be able to guess his/her matriclan, indirectly, from those same adornments.

I haven’t worked out such questions for Elves any more than for Dwarves.





Edited February 3rd by chiarizio

Search found 5 matches

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Topic: Conworld(s) Status Updates
chiarizio
Replies: 195
Views: 62855
PostForum: General Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:43 pm Subject: Conworld(s) Status Updates

I’ve done more about Adpihi and Reptigan.

Reptigan now has class exogamy.
There are ways richer people can sponsor promising young adults and adolescents from not-rich families.

I’ve modified Adpihi’s (and Reptigan’s) anthroponymic naming-systems slightly, as regards “forenames” (individual personal names).
I’ve also added traditions between grandparents and their children-in-law who are the parents of their grandchildren.
And I’ve made progress on the Adpihi language’s native terms for matriclan and patriclan and “rope”. Right now I’m looking at “milk-house” for matriclan, “blood-path” for patriclan, and “robe” for geun or alterclan.
And there may be more.

And I have a new multiracial fantasy conworld!
It has
“Plains People” (aka Men or Humans),
“Mine People” (aka Dwarves),
“Woods People” (aka Elves), and
“Lake and River People” (aka MerCentaurs).
I’ve said a few things about them.

And I’ve made a few decisions about the people who speak my conlang Arpien.
I wonder whether they should be the Plains People in my multiracial fantasy world?

Topic: Multi-sex systems
chiarizio
Replies: 67
Views: 15973
PostForum: Science Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:42 pm Subject: MerCentaurs

Blake wrote:

Oh, right- the best way to incorporate more sexes would be to have an organism made up of several two sexed species (like a lichen, but an animal), where each species has to procreate- that results in as many mandatory sexes as you need (just make a multidimensional table of the possibilities).


Among the four (so far) sapient “races” in my multiracial fantasy world, my most recently conceived are the MerCentaurs; something like a three way chimerical mix of merfolk, centaurs, and hippocampi.
They might have eight sexes, if the human part could be male or female, and the horse part could be male or female, and the fish part could be male or female, all independently.

I could complicate things by allowing the fish part to do something RL fish actually do. For instance, young adults could be male and older adults could be female or vice-versa. Or the sex of the fish part could depend on incubation temperature. Or it could depend on which adult sex it encountered the most of as an egg or larva or embryo or fetus (i e if it runs into more male-fish-part adults than female-fish-part adults it grows up female, but if it meets more female than male adult fish parts it grows up male).

————————

If I give these people crab-claws, like the Classical Greek ichthyocentaurs sometimes had, .... but I’m not planning to do that. These are my own creations.
Topic: OceanGoing Ships in my MultiRacial Fantasy ConWorld
chiarizio

Replies: 0
Views: 61
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:38 am Subject: OceanGoing Ships in my MultiRacial Fantasy ConWorld
In my so-far-unnamed multiracial fantasy conworld, I have just said (in a different thread), that, when ocean-going ships “become a thing”, the best sailors will be the Mer-Centaurs; but every ship will want a Human navigator and an Elven carpenter and a Dwarven engineer.

I think more could be said.
I’ll bet they’d also want their top two officers to be a Human and a Mer-Centaur. Either a Human captain with a MerCentaur 2nd-in-command, or a MerCentaur captain with a Human second.
If the ship is wind-powered, there’ll probably be some duties requiring a sailor to climb a mast. If a mast is very tall and/or the ship has many masts, these duties would best be assigned to Elves. So a “clipper”, for example, would want several Elvish sailors. OTOH they’d also want enough MerCentaur sailors to handle any duties involving going into the water, such as rescuing Elves who fell overboard without learning to swim first. Or, actually, most duties that didn’t involve leaving the deck or climbing the rigging.
If the ship is steam-powered, they might want the “black gang” to consist mostly of Dwarves.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_gang_%%%%%%%%28ship%%%%%%%%29

If the ship is made of metal, they might not need a carpenter.

—————

I can’t think of any reason why one race should be more or less likely to own a ship than any other race.

But it would seem there’d be no place for bigotry at sea.

—————

Would that make a good story title? “Bigot At Sea”?
Topic: Conworld summaries (1 paragraph)
chiarizio

Replies: 11
Views: 3358
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:02 am Subject: Conworld summaries (1 paragraph)
Adpihi is a world very much like Earth which was accidentally settled by a group of colonists who meant to settle somewhere else. They don’t know where they are exactly, don’t know exactly which direction Earth is nor exactly how far away it is, and even if they figured that out, they don’t know how to re-contact Earth. So they manage to colonize their whole planet, then the local star’s system of planets-and-satellites-and-asteroids, then get ready to send missions to the stars nearest-neighbors to their own star; then encounter an intelligent “alien” species, then re-contact Earth.
Adpihi are all religious; it colors everything they do or say or think.

Reptigan is the successor culture to Adpihi. At their peak they consist of seven-to-twelve species, inhabiting up to 500 celestial bodies (some of which are planets), orbiting up to 200 stars. all numbers subject to change! Reptigan are very punctilious about etiquette. They are also very tolerant of differences. They are strong believers in political equality, and also extremely practical solvers of problems practicing political equality at interstellar distances, and makers and acceptors of compromises over conflicts for which there is no ideal solution. Reptigan have a well-deserved reputation for being bold; and not just human Reptigan, all Reptigan regardless of species or home world. Bold, but not foolhardy.

The multiracial fantasy world doesn’t have a name yet. It contains canon-trope-like dwarves who are cave-and-mountain people (“Mine People”); canon-trope-like woods elves (“Forest People” aka “Tree Shepherds”); humans (“Men”, “Plains People”, “Grass People”); and Mer-Centaurs (“Lake People”, “River People”). The whole point of this world is to find out how the races can get along. Most of the Lake People won’t naturally have much contact with most of the Mountain People. If one wants to transport something by (fresh)water, one needs the River People’s help if the trip is a long one. If one wants to transport something overland, one needs the Plains People’s help if the trip is a long one. And plains and forests can be neighbors to each other; and either can be neighbor to either mountains or lakes. And Dwarves are the best metalworkers and jewelers, and Elves are the best woodworkers, and Mer-Centaurs are the best fishers. Plainspeople are the best marksmen with missile weapons, the best caravan-masters, and the best wicker-workers. Probably the best herders, too. If you want something dug out of the ground, a Dwarf is your best go-to digger. When petroleum is discovered to be valuable, and discovered to be abundant under the desert sand, Human caravan truckers take the Dwarven engineers to and from the wells, truck in their supplies, truck out their barrels of crude; while Dwarven engineers do all the digging. Once travelling across salt water becomes a thing, it will turn out that mer-centaurs are the best sailors; but every ship will want a Human navigator and a Dwarven engineer and an Elven carpenter.
I intend bigotry to be a problem. For any given pair of races, there will be some members of the first race who just can’t stand the second race.
Topic: So-far-unnamed Fantasy Multi-Racial Conworld
chiarizio

Replies: 0
Views: 58
PostForum: WIP conworlds Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:49 pm Subject: So-far-unnamed Fantasy Multi-Racial Conworld
An Earthlike world inhabited by several realistic(?) species or sub-species or genera, all(?) belonging to the same taxonomic family.

It has Humans just like us for Plains People in its grasslands and savannahs and prairies and steppes.
It has Dwarves for Mine People in its mountain ranges and caves.
It has Elves for its Forest People in its forests and woods.

—————

The reason for the parenthesized question-marks above is;
I also think I might want a Lakes-and-Rivers People; and I think I might want them to be Mer-Centaurs.

Page 1 of 1

Edited February 5th by chiarizio


Search found 11 matches
conworlds.fun Forum Index
Author Message
Topic: Conworld(s) Status Updates
chiarizio

Replies: 195
Views: 62855
PostForum: General Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:43 pm Subject: Conworld(s) Status Updates
I’ve done more about Adpihi and Reptigan.

Reptigan now has class exogamy.
There are ways richer people can sponsor promising young adults and adolescents from not-rich families.

I’ve modified Adpihi’s (and Reptigan’s) anthroponymic naming-systems slightly, as regards “forenames” (individual personal names).
I’ve also added traditions between grandparents and their children-in-law who are the parents of their grandchildren.
And I’ve made progress on the Adpihi language’s native terms for matriclan and patriclan and “rope”. Right now I’m looking at “milk-house” for matriclan, “blood-path” for patriclan, and “robe” for geun or alterclan.
And there may be more.

And I have a new multiracial fantasy conworld!
It has
“Plains People” (aka Men or Humans),
“Mine People” (aka Dwarves),
“Woods People” (aka Elves), and
“Lake and River People” (aka MerCentaurs).
I’ve said a few things about them.

And I’ve made a few decisions about the people who speak my conlang Arpien.
I wonder whether they should be the Plains People in my multiracial fantasy world?
Topic: Multi-sex systems
chiarizio

Replies: 67
Views: 15973
PostForum: Science Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:42 pm Subject: MerCentaurs
Blake wrote:

Oh, right- the best way to incorporate more sexes would be to have an organism made up of several two sexed species (like a lichen, but an animal), where each species has to procreate- that results in as many mandatory sexes as you need (just make a multidimensional table of the possibilities).


Among the four (so far) sapient “races” in my multiracial fantasy world, my most recently conceived are the MerCentaurs; something like a three way chimerical mix of merfolk, centaurs, and hippocampi.
They might have eight sexes, if the human part could be male or female, and the horse part could be male or female, and the fish part could be male or female, all independently.

I could complicate things by allowing the fish part to do something RL fish actually do. For instance, young adults could be male and older adults could be female or vice-versa. Or the sex of the fish part could depend on incubation temperature. Or it could depend on which adult sex it encountered the most of as an egg or larva or embryo or fetus (i e if it runs into more male-fish-part adults than female-fish-part adults it grows up female, but if it meets more female than male adult fish parts it grows up male).

————————

If I give these people crab-claws, like the Classical Greek ichthyocentaurs sometimes had, .... but I’m not planning to do that. These are my own creations.
Topic: Disgusting...
chiarizio

Replies: 38
Views: 14528
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:54 am Subject: Disgusting...
I figure for each pair of races X and Y, 20% (about 1 out of 5) of the members of race X just already know they won’t like any member of race Y, before they even meet them.

And for any three races X and Y and Z, 4% (about 1 out of 25) of race X will feel that way both about race Y and race Z.

And 0.8% (about 1 out of 125) of each race will feel that way about every race except their own.

——————————

BTW I googled MerCentaurs and found bunches of neat stuff! I hope that doesn’t mean I’ll be violating anyone’s intellectual-property rights by using a vaguely similar race with the same name in my own story!
Topic: BODY MODIFICATION
chiarizio

Replies: 12
Views: 4349
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:58 am Subject: BODY MODIFICATION
My elves might tattoo themselves in camouflage patterns to make themselves harder to detect in the type of woods that is their home.

I think the plains people in the same conworld might instead tattoo themselves so that their group memberships could be identified at a distance. It could be like zebrage or razzle-dazzle; easier to tell they are there, but harder to tell how far away, or which direction they’re going, or how fast.

At the moment I can’t think of good reasons for mountain dwarves or MerCentaurs to do any body modifications.

Nor why anyone in Adpihi or Reptigan to do it.

Maybe Arpiens would do it just to prove a little pain couldn’t dissuade them from whatever decision they’d made.
Topic: OceanGoing Ships in my MultiRacial Fantasy ConWorld
chiarizio

Replies: 0
Views: 61
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:38 am Subject: OceanGoing Ships in my MultiRacial Fantasy ConWorld
In my so-far-unnamed multiracial fantasy conworld, I have just said (in a different thread), that, when ocean-going ships “become a thing”, the best sailors will be the Mer-Centaurs; but every ship will want a Human navigator and an Elven carpenter and a Dwarven engineer.

I think more could be said.
I’ll bet they’d also want their top two officers to be a Human and a Mer-Centaur. Either a Human captain with a MerCentaur 2nd-in-command, or a MerCentaur captain with a Human second.
If the ship is wind-powered, there’ll probably be some duties requiring a sailor to climb a mast. If a mast is very tall and/or the ship has many masts, these duties would best be assigned to Elves. So a “clipper”, for example, would want several Elvish sailors. OTOH they’d also want enough MerCentaur sailors to handle any duties involving going into the water, such as rescuing Elves who fell overboard without learning to swim first. Or, actually, most duties that didn’t involve leaving the deck or climbing the rigging.
If the ship is steam-powered, they might want the “black gang” to consist mostly of Dwarves.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_gang_%28ship%29

If the ship is made of metal, they might not need a carpenter.

—————

I can’t think of any reason why one race should be more or less likely to own a ship than any other race.

But it would seem there’d be no place for bigotry at sea.

—————

Would that make a good story title? “Bigot At Sea”?
Topic: Conworld summaries (1 paragraph)
chiarizio

Replies: 11
Views: 3358
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:02 am Subject: Conworld summaries (1 paragraph)
Adpihi is a world very much like Earth which was accidentally settled by a group of colonists who meant to settle somewhere else. They don’t know where they are exactly, don’t know exactly which direction Earth is nor exactly how far away it is, and even if they figured that out, they don’t know how to re-contact Earth. So they manage to colonize their whole planet, then the local star’s system of planets-and-satellites-and-asteroids, then get ready to send missions to the stars nearest-neighbors to their own star; then encounter an intelligent “alien” species, then re-contact Earth.
Adpihi are all religious; it colors everything they do or say or think.

Reptigan is the successor culture to Adpihi. At their peak they consist of seven-to-twelve species, inhabiting up to 500 celestial bodies (some of which are planets), orbiting up to 200 stars. all numbers subject to change! Reptigan are very punctilious about etiquette. They are also very tolerant of differences. They are strong believers in political equality, and also extremely practical solvers of problems practicing political equality at interstellar distances, and makers and acceptors of compromises over conflicts for which there is no ideal solution. Reptigan have a well-deserved reputation for being bold; and not just human Reptigan, all Reptigan regardless of species or home world. Bold, but not foolhardy.

The multiracial fantasy world doesn’t have a name yet. It contains canon-trope-like dwarves who are cave-and-mountain people (“Mine People”); canon-trope-like woods elves (“Forest People” aka “Tree Shepherds”); humans (“Men”, “Plains People”, “Grass People”); and Mer-Centaurs (“Lake People”, “River People”). The whole point of this world is to find out how the races can get along. Most of the Lake People won’t naturally have much contact with most of the Mountain People. If one wants to transport something by (fresh)water, one needs the River People’s help if the trip is a long one. If one wants to transport something overland, one needs the Plains People’s help if the trip is a long one. And plains and forests can be neighbors to each other; and either can be neighbor to either mountains or lakes. And Dwarves are the best metalworkers and jewelers, and Elves are the best woodworkers, and Mer-Centaurs are the best fishers. Plainspeople are the best marksmen with missile weapons, the best caravan-masters, and the best wicker-workers. Probably the best herders, too. If you want something dug out of the ground, a Dwarf is your best go-to digger. When petroleum is discovered to be valuable, and discovered to be abundant under the desert sand, Human caravan truckers take the Dwarven engineers to and from the wells, truck in their supplies, truck out their barrels of crude; while Dwarven engineers do all the digging. Once travelling across salt water becomes a thing, it will turn out that mer-centaurs are the best sailors; but every ship will want a Human navigator and a Dwarven engineer and an Elven carpenter.
I intend bigotry to be a problem. For any given pair of races, there will be some members of the first race who just can’t stand the second race.
Topic: Conworld tidbit game
chiarizio

Replies: 80
Views: 24209
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:19 am Subject: Conworld tidbit game
Oops 😬 🙊! Embarassed
I should have responded to Avjunza’s “TOYS”!

bloodb4roses wrote:


HATS or HEADGEAR


In Adpihi people’s headgear depends on the season, the climate, the local ecology, their jobs, and what they can afford. Those who have a choice, take great care in their choice (which is mostly based on their personal aesthetics), and also great pride in it.

In Reptigan the main thing about hats is the hat-etiquette which is observed so strictly by members of the Service Corps. There’s more to it than this —— e.g. it can depend on what duty one is assigned —— but the main thing that comes to my mind is, when in uniform and indoors, one should wear one’s uniform hat if and only if one is armed, and one should go bare-headed if and only if one is unarmed.

In my dwarves-elves-humans-mercentaurs conworld, what hat one wears depends partly on what race one is.
Dwarves typically wear hard hats with a light above the forehead, angled just a little bit down (so they won’t have to look directly at their feet to see what they’re about to step in!). Because dwarves spend 40 hours a week in mines.
Humans usually wear broad-brimmed flat-brimmed hats to shade their faces and necks from the sun. Because they’re usually working in grasslands with few trees taller than people. The brims on these hats are adjustable, to keep e.g. rain out of their faces and away from their collars. They often (or usually?) have veils or earmuffs or something like that that they can deploy from the hat in case the wind gets cold or the rain starts falling sideways or there’s something like a duststorm of pollen or dandelion fluff or whatever.
Elves generally work in the woods. What they need a hat for generally falls from straight up. Mostly (gentled) rain; also the excretions of arboreal animals; and things that fall from trees. Usually not branches, unless they’re working on pruning the trees, or lumberjacking. Often fruits or seeds or nuts. Once in a while, depending on what sorts of trees are around, really big, heavy nuts.
I can’t think of any reason any mercentaur would ever wear a hat.


Next:

CANDY
Topic: Dragons and Phoenixes
chiarizio

Replies: 64
Views: 17501
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:15 pm Subject: Dragons and Phoenixes
Last time I saw this thread and it’s poll, I hadn’t thought of a fantasy conworlds.
Now I’ve thought of a dwarves + elves + humans + mer-centaurs conworld.
It will have dragons 🐉, but they’ll be artifacts built by smiths (which will mostly be dwarves). They’ll probably be intelligent 🤓 artifacts, or at least the interesting ones probably will be.
Not sure 🤔 about phoenixes.
Topic: So-far-unnamed Fantasy Multi-Racial Conworld
chiarizio

Replies: 0
Views: 58
PostForum: WIP conworlds Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:49 pm Subject: So-far-unnamed Fantasy Multi-Racial Conworld
An Earthlike world inhabited by several realistic(?) species or sub-species or genera, all(?) belonging to the same taxonomic family.

It has Humans just like us for Plains People in its grasslands and savannahs and prairies and steppes.
It has Dwarves for Mine People in its mountain ranges and caves.
It has Elves for its Forest People in its forests and woods.

—————

The reason for the parenthesized question-marks above is;
I also think I might want a Lakes-and-Rivers People; and I think I might want them to be Mer-Centaurs.
Topic: WIP conspecies
chiarizio

Replies: 29
Views: 4490
PostForum: WIP conworlds Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:34 pm Subject: Mer-Centaurs for Lake People?
chiarizio wrote:

I wondered if I maybe should have a “race” of Forest People, the way I have a race of “Mine people” (i.e. Dwarves)?
.


If I have Dwarves for Mine People, and Elves for Forest People, and Humans for Plains People;
Might I be able to use some Lake&River People?

Could they be Mer-Centaurs?
Topic: Race, Races, and Racism
chiarizio

Replies: 38
Views: 8296
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:32 pm Subject: Race, Races, and Racism
chiarizio wrote:

I wondered if I maybe should have a “race” of Forest People, the way I have a race of “Mine people” (i.e. Dwarves)?
.


If I have Dwarves for Mine People, and Elves for Forest People, and Humans for Plains People;
Might I be able to use some Lake&River People?

Could they be Mer-Centaurs?

Page 1 of 1

Posted February 3rd by chiarizio

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Topic: Epic discovery on my part
chiarizio

Replies: 46
Views: 11302
PostForum: Magic & Science fiction Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 12:28 am Subject: Epic discovery on my part
bloodb4roses wrote:

I know this is adding more, but possibly it could help explain something else at some point.

I'd personally prefer if there was one "type" of matter. Unless I could interweave this with the magic system I'm trying to figure out...


Two types of energy (light and dark) are as good as two types of matter, aren’t they? Or are they?

.. . . . . . . . .

I once read of an alt.earth that had been hit during its formation with a celestial body —- asteroid or meteoroid or dwarf planet or moon-oid maybe — which was largely exotic matter, that came from a different “nearby” universe (of the multiverse) in which a fourth spacial dimension was broad enough to affect the central-forces laws; so e.g. they obeyed inverse-cube instead of inverse-square laws. Objects containing none of this exotic matter were mundane; objects containing a little of it were slightly “magical”; objects containing a lot of it were very magical. (This World was meta fiction; it was the setting for a fictional computer game in the novel Ream.De.)

So a soupçon of exotic matter has been used successfully to underlie magic with a “scientific” explanation by a published author.

Page 1 of 1


Posted February 3rd by chiarizio


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Topic: Stars with multiple habitable planets.
chiarizio

Replies: 0
Views: 323
PostForum: Science Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:32 am Subject: Stars with multiple habitable planets.
The Trappist-1 system has 7 🌏 earthlike planets. At least three are in its habitable (“Goldilocks”) zone, and three more could possibly have some liquid 💦 water 💧, at least in some places.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRAPPIST-1
What if all seven were habitable?

What if, indeed, all seven were actually inhabited?

———

Another way a star’s system could host several habitable natural bodies, would be for it to have a few (say, two to four?) Jovian-sized planets just barely less massive than “brown dwarves” in its “Goldilocks zone”, and they each had a number of natural satellites around earth size, or at least big enough to hold an atmosphere and an ocean 🌊 that could be habitable. http://conworlds.fun/cwbb/viewtopic.php?t=1381 For instance, maybe one giant would have four such satellites; another giant would have two such satellites; and a third and fourth giant would have one such satellite apiece.
That would give us eight habitable bodies.

What would the astrophysical features of such a star and such planets have to be, to have two or three or four “giants” in its habitable zone?

——

Would it help to include another star? If so, should the planets orbit just the more massive star, while its companion orbited the whole shebang at least 5 times further away from the main star, than its furthest planet?
Or should the planets have circumbinary orbits, around both stars?

——

If either star in a binary pair of stars has a planet stably orbiting it at a habitable, Goldilocks distance, then it seems obvious to me that no planet in any stable circumbinary orbit, could be warm enough for water to be liquid.

But, couldn’t both stars’ immediate families of planets have planets in their habitable zones?

That might be “almost as good” as having more than one habitable planet orbiting a single star, or more than one habitable major satellite orbiting (a) major planet(s) orbiting one star. There’d be habitable bodies that were each others’ cousins, rather than each others’ sisters, to stretch a metaphor.

—————

I propose the following scenario as most conducive to the achievement of interstellar space flight.

Our con people live on a habitable (obviously) major satellite of some major planet.
That planet also has another habitable satellite.
The primary star which that planet orbits, also has another habitable body.
(Maybe it is a minor planet, or maybe it’s a satellite of another gas giant.)
That star has a companion star; the two stars orbit one another at a great enough distance not to interfere with the stability of each other’s planets’ orbits.
That companion star also has a habitable planet (or satellite).

———

That way, the people could first go from satellite to sister satellite; then from planet to sister planet; then from star to sister star.

—————

Would they “terra”form bodies as they settled them?
What if there was already life there?
Would there eventually be political or other conflict between the home “world”s and the grownup colonies?

What if more than one of the bodies had, not only life, but intelligent life?
Topic: Nitrogenous Wastes
chiarizio

Replies: 3
Views: 2289
PostForum: Science Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:55 am Subject: Nitrogenous Wastes
How do y’all’s various con-species get rid of their nitrogenous wastes?

My humans are humans and pee out urea.

My dwarves and elves are humanoid. Maybe one or the other or both of them will excrete uric acid, like kangaroo rats.
(If the dwarves are going to take over the petroleum industry, it might pre-adapt them to the desert to be water savers like kangaroo rats.)
Maybe I’ll also have another fantasy “race” (meaning species) that lives near plenty of fresh drinkable water and can get away with peeing hippuric acid like horses do.
(If the elves are going to dominate the forests, they might have that .)

My space-centipedes weren’t even evolved on Earth. So anything I can think of might, at least at first blush, make sense for them.

Can anyone see why some other trope-like sf or fantasy creatures, if given a quasirealistic biology, might have some system other than the ones humans have?
E.g. vampires? Werewolves? Dragons?

Are dragons more like phoenixes, thus avian rather than reptilian?
Maybe dinosaur-like?
Or might they be like insects with a complete four-phase metamorphosis?

Can anyone think of an intelligent alien species whose reproductive strategy and life-cycle partly resembled monotremes, partly resembled marsupials, and partly resembled fully-metamorphic insects?
If you don’t think that’s complicated enough, throw in insects with nymphs and instars and incomplete metamorphosis; and/or, reptiles.
What if adolescents didn’t know what sex they’d mature as, until they, as nymphs, began to go into the pupation-like torpor?
Topic: Multinary Alloys (metallurgy)
chiarizio

Replies: 2
Views: 875
PostForum: Science Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:38 am Subject: Multinary Alloys (metallurgy)
Was anyone else interested in either HEAs or BMGs?

My dwarves sure would be!

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Posted February 3rd by chiarizio


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Topic: A habitable two-"star" "Solar" system
chiarizio

Replies: 8
Views: 2754
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:09 pm Subject: A habitable two-"star" "Solar" system
Imagine a star like the Sun, orbited at about 1 AU by a planet like
the Earth which has a satellite like the Moon; and also at 5.2 AU by
a planet like Jupiter.

Now imagine it also has a companion star with about 1/30 of the mass
orbiting at about 26 AU. That's closer than Neptune. If the Sun had
had such a companion Neptune would never have formed; Uranus probably
wouldn't have formed; FAIK Saturn might not have formed. Would
Jupiter have formed?

According to at least one source, to be called "a star" it has to
have a mass of at least 1/20 a Solar mass; so this companion would be
a rather heavyish "brown dwarf" instead of a "star". Jupiter is
about 1/1047 of a Solar mass (maybe it shouldn't be that precise?),
so this companion would be about 35 times as massive as
Jupiter; "brown dwarfs" start at about 10 time the mass of Jupiter,
so this companion would be at least about 3.5 times as heavy as the
lightest "brown dwarfs", but about 2/3 as heavy as the
lightest "star".

That means that it would look like a glowing red object. ("red
dwarfs" look white, not red).

Would it outshine the alt.Moon, as seen from the alt.Earth? (I don't
know which way to bet.)
Would it look bigger than the alt.Moon as seen from the alt.Earth?
(I'm betting "no".)
Would it appear as a disk or as a point? It would probably look
pointlike if it subtends less than half a minute of arc, and disklike
if it subtends more than half a minute of arc.
What would be it's actual radius?

------------------

More important, really:
How would it affect life on the alt.Earth? How would it affect
culture? How would it affect navigation? (etc.).
Topic: A habitable two-"star" "Solar" system
chiarizio

Replies: 8
Views: 2754
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:15 pm Subject: A habitable two-"star" "Solar" system
On another forum some of my questions were answered, or, at least, I got some good bets.

Put it at 30.1 AU and it's the same distance from the Sun as Neptune. Possibly Neptune could then be in an L4 or L5 position relative to the brown-dwarf companion. (Though odds are Neptune wouldn't have formed at all; perhaps it would have become some "Trojan asteroids"?)

I don't know what it's diameter would be, but, if it were about 3.3 times the diameter of Jupiter (a big "if"), its "apparent diameter" would be about 3/5 the "apparent diameter" of Jupiter. As far as I know, Venus is the only planet that appears as a disk to the naked eye as seen from the Earth; so the brown dwarf companion would also have to be seen as a point.

If its diameter were about 32% of the diameter of the Sun (a different "big if"), its "apparent diameter" would be about 1.07% the "apparent diameter" of the Moon or of the Sun. I'm pretty sure that would still make it just a point.

However, it's "year" would be the same as Neptune's year *here*; between about 163 and about 165 Earth years.

It would be the second-brightest object in the sky; it would be the third-most-important-looking object after the Sun and the Moon.

I don't see how it could affect Earth biology "much"; nor could it affect navigation; but surely there would be stories about it. During some parts of Earth's "year" it would be visible during daylight, even when it appeared to be close to the Sun, for most of the day; during the other parts, it would be the brightest star in the night sky, even when it appeared to be close to the Moon, for most of the night.

Also, once there was a civilization which kept its own history, folks would notice its period was 163.75 or whatever years.

I wonder how many of the stories would be affected by its color? It would appear to be a bright, glowing red. ("brown dwarves" look red; "red dwarves" look white.)

How much heat it would provide is a good question. When the Earth is between the Sun and its companion, nights would be warmer; when the Sun is between the Earth and its companion, days would be warmer (though not by as much) and nights wouldn't be warmer. Could this either moderate or exaggerate the seasons?

I still think it would break Uranus up into an additional asteroid belt. I still don't know what it would do to Saturn.

And a lot of that is still guessing.

Kinetiq wrote:
As for the cultural influence, would it be the King of the 'wandering stars'? The enemy brother of the Sun2, waiting to rise the army of the gods against him?
The only differences an Earth-bound observer could detect between the brown-dwarf companion and any other visible planet are; it has a longer period than any of them, and it shines with its own visible light instead of reflected light.
So, in a way, it would be the "king of the planets", just as you said.
I don't see, though, why they would classify it with the sun and the moon, rather than as the most special planet; maybe they would if it gave enough light to read by during the night?
My own thinking is that it could be a drop of the Sun's blood from some time in the past when the Sun suffered a (minor? at any rate non-fatal) wound (since healed?).

bloodb4roses wrote:
Possibly both. However I have no clue what it would look like and it would probably add heat to Earth2's biosphere, even if not as much as the Sun2. So I wonder how much warmer Earth2 would be?
I like these questions but I don't have answers; (at least not yet).
Can anyone shed light on these questions?

Thanks. Smile
Topic: BODY MODIFICATION
chiarizio

Replies: 12
Views: 4349
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:58 am Subject: BODY MODIFICATION
My elves might tattoo themselves in camouflage patterns to make themselves harder to detect in the type of woods that is their home.

I think the plains people in the same conworld might instead tattoo themselves so that their group memberships could be identified at a distance. It could be like zebrage or razzle-dazzle; easier to tell they are there, but harder to tell how far away, or which direction they’re going, or how fast.

At the moment I can’t think of good reasons for mountain dwarves or MerCentaurs to do any body modifications.

Nor why anyone in Adpihi or Reptigan to do it.

Maybe Arpiens would do it just to prove a little pain couldn’t dissuade them from whatever decision they’d made.
Topic: Casual Conworlder Index
chiarizio

Replies: 22
Views: 9366
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:58 am Subject: Casual Conworlder Index
Trajan wrote:
Could they perhaps be fixed again? Smile


I'll give it a try.

someone not me wrote:
Hi there! Whether you've got a major conworld project, or especially if you just like adding things here and there, this post is here to show you small things you can contribute to with your conworld without getting overwhelmed.

Of course, if you DO have a major conworld, a great place to post it is the Work-In-Progress Subforum

Basic Conworld Questions

The following section lists posts that ask general questions about your conworld.

Questions for conworlders -- a large in-depth post. A great place to find out things to do for your conworld if you don't have answers to these questions.

Conworld History -- A post asking about the history of your conworld.

Creating from the beginning -- A post asking about where you start in your conworld.

In your conworld...

The following is a long list of posts that deal with specific aspects of your conworld, sorted into topical sections.

Sex and Love

Marriage in your conculture -- A very in-depth post about marriage and marriage customs in your conworld.

Polyamory, Polygamy, Clan marriage, Line marriage -- A post about alternative types of marriage in your conworld.

Restrictions of Marriage -- A post asking about restrictions of marriage in your conworld. (Not that the first post is worded that way, but eh)

Divorce and Annullment -- A post asking about how marriages can be "broken" (if at all) in your conworld.

Sex/Nudity/Clothing -- A post about how sex, nudity, and clothing interlock in your conworld.. although it's possible that your conculture doesn't have any sexual mores or modesty at all.

Fertility/sex/love celebrations -- A post asking about lovemaking rituals and celebrations.

Religion & Mythology

Scientific Theology -- A post about your conworld's scientific depiction of God (or gods)

The greatest Heresy -- A post about the most heretical things that can be done in conreligions.

Urban Legends -- A post about urban legends, delusions, myths, and other secrets in your conworld.

Hell -- A post about your conculture(s)'s understanding of the afterlife. (not necessarily the actual afterlife itself, there's a good post in M&SF for that)

Government & Law

Heirarchies and Obedience -- A post asking about how your conpeople deal with heirarchies and how impolite (or lethal) it is to disobey them.

Congovernments -- A post about the government system(s) your conworlds have.

Politics -- A very in-depth post about politics in your conworld. Worth a reading to get ideas if your congovernment has **ANY** politics at all.

Political Divisions -- A post about the different political factions in your congovernment(s).

Organized Crime -- A post about organized crime in your conworld (if it even exists)

Police -- A pretty in-depth post about police systems in your conworld. It includes things like how magical rules or religious rules are enforced as well.

Crime and Criminals -- Another in-depth post about crime in your conworld.

Economics

Money & Economics -- A post about monetary systems and economics in your conworld, ranging from simple barter exchange to complicated interstellar commerce.

Education and Jobs -- A post about jobs and the education required for them in your conworld. Note that this can apply to apprenticeship, magical tutelage, etc, not just to modern ideas of the concept.

Land & Territories

Inheriting Land -- A post about land inheritance in your conculture(s), with some nice system definitions.

City Size & Amount of Features -- A post about how big a city is in your conworld, and the amount of taverns/inns/restaurants/etc that it contains.

Types of Territories -- a post about the types of territories (kingdoms, provinces, etc) in your conworld.

Architechture -- A post about architechture in your conworld.

Biology

Causes of Death -- A post asking what your conpeople actually die of.

Reproduction -- A post about reproduction of the creatures/races in your conworld.

Rituals/Celebrations

Celebrations -- A post about celebrations in your conworld.

Awards -- A post about awards/honors/medals/etc that are given out in your conworld.

Fertility/sex/love celebrations -- A post asking about lovemaking rituals and celebrations.

Coming of Age -- A post about coming of age rituals/etc in your conworld.

New year celebrations -- A post about new year celebrations in your conworld.

Food & Drugs

Conculinary! -- A post asking about food and recipes in your conworld.

Meals! -- A post about the mealtime habits of your conpeople.

Staple Food Sources -- A post about staple foods (ie, rice, wheat, corn) in your conculture(s).

Psychoactive Chemicals -- A post about, well, drugs in your conworld.

Cultural

Conart and Conmusic -- A post about art and music in your conworld.

Language/History Trees -- A post about tracing back to the roots of a particular conculture, in terms of language, culture, etc.

The poor and homeless -- A post asking about your conculture(s)'s stance on dealing with the poor and/or homeless.

Disabilities -- A post about how people with disabilities are treated (both definitions of that word).

Slavery -- A post about how your concultures deal with Slavery.

Bathing -- A post about bathing, personal hygeine, and any taboos that come with it.

Grooming -- A post about grooming habits in your conworld, ie hair brushing.


Science

Astronomy/Astrology -- A post about how your conpeople deal with those things in the sky. Note also that your world may have different things in the sky than other worlds (it seems common to have two moons, for some reason!)

Calendar conversion -- A post asking about different calendars and how they are converted into earth dates. (Especially useful if your world has a different amount of hours in a day, days in a year, etc)

Clock Time -- A post about how your conpeople measure time.

Traditional Medicine -- A post asking about traditional forms of medicine (ie, herbs, aura healing, etc) in your conworld.

Races/Creatures

Conworld Races -- A post about the non-human races in your conworld.

The Non-human Sentient Species Consensus -- Quite a mouthful. A great way of classifying the creatures in your conworld that are sentient but not human (or not even necessarily races).

Racism -- A post about racism. Not necessarily limited to human races either; ie a bunch of elves could hate dwarves, or dragons may want to declare genocide on phoenixes, etc.

Non-corporeal creatures -- a post asking about cultures and implications of non-corporeal (read: ghosts, demons, etc) creatures in your conworld.

Dragons & Phoenixes -- A post about two very common mythological creatures and how they appear in your conworld, if they do.

Non-human Morality -- A post about the morality and ethics of non-human races in your conworld.

Misc

Characters -- A post about specific characters in your conworld.

Metachronology -- A post about reconciling two different conworlds that you have; also a post about thinking of your conworld's history in the VERY long-term (ie, millenia).

Conworld tidbits

This next section gives links where you give some overall idea of your world or small facts about it.

Annoying... -- If you went to your conworld, what would be the most annoying thing? If someone from your conworld came here, what would THEY find the most annoying?

Disgusting... -- Same as above, but about what would be most disgusting.

Game of Contrasts -- Contrast one aspect of your world with an aspect of another's, in game format.

Ten point description -- Describe the ten main features of your conworld.

Conworld Tidbit Game -- Tell about one aspect of your conworld according to the topic given.

Conworld Rant Game -- Tell about one aspect of your conworld, after giving questions and comments to the last aspect (note: short posts).

Games and challenges

The next section gives a list of posts where you make up a small conworld in a kind of game. Very casual, this section!

Make a gov system -- a game where you make a new government system according to the culture posted.

Make these work together game -- a game where you reconcile three different facts into a new culture.

Make these work toegether game II -- another one.

Collaborative Conworld -- an old collaborative conworld project, mostly dead but still worth a look or an addition.
Topic: Casual Conworlder Index
chiarizio

Replies: 22
Views: 9366
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:12 am Subject: Re: Casual Conworlder Index
Xhin wrote:
Hi there! Whether you've got a major conworld project, or especially if you just like adding things here and there, this post is here to show you small things you can contribute to with your conworld without getting overwhelmed.

Of course, if you DO have a major conworld, a great place to post it is the Work-In-Progress Subforum

Basic Conworld Questions

The following section lists posts that ask general questions about your conworld.

Questions for conworlders -- a large in-depth post. A great place to find out things to do for your conworld if you don't have answers to these questions.

Conworld History -- A post asking about the history of your conworld.

Creating from the beginning -- A post asking about where you start in your conworld.

In your conworld...

The following is a long list of posts that deal with specific aspects of your conworld, sorted into topical sections.

Sex and Love

Marriage in your conculture -- A very in-depth post about marriage and marriage customs in your conworld.

Polyamory, Polygamy, Clan marriage, Line marriage -- A post about alternative types of marriage in your conworld.

Restrictions of Marriage -- A post asking about restrictions of marriage in your conworld. (Not that the first post is worded that way, but eh)

Divorce and Annullment -- A post asking about how marriages can be "broken" (if at all) in your conworld.

Sex/Nudity/Clothing -- A post about how sex, nudity, and clothing interlock in your conworld.. although it's possible that your conculture doesn't have any sexual mores or modesty at all.

Fertility/sex/love celebrations -- A post asking about lovemaking rituals and celebrations.

Religion & Mythology

Scientific Theology -- A post about your conworld's scientific depiction of God (or gods)

The greatest Heresy -- A post about the most heretical things that can be done in conreligions.

Urban Legends -- A post about urban legends, delusions, myths, and other secrets in your conworld.

Hell -- A post about your conculture(s)'s understanding of the afterlife. (not necessarily the actual afterlife itself, there's a good post in M&SF for that)

Government & Law

Heirarchies and Obedience -- A post asking about how your conpeople deal with heirarchies and how impolite (or lethal) it is to disobey them.

Congovernments -- A post about the government system(s) your conworlds have.

Politics -- A very in-depth post about politics in your conworld. Worth a reading to get ideas if your congovernment has **ANY** politics at all.

Political Divisions -- A post about the different political factions in your congovernment(s).

Organized Crime -- A post about organized crime in your conworld (if it even exists)

Police -- A pretty in-depth post about police systems in your conworld. It includes things like how magical rules or religious rules are enforced as well.

Crime and Criminals -- Another in-depth post about crime in your conworld.

Economics

Money & Economics -- A post about monetary systems and economics in your conworld, ranging from simple barter exchange to complicated interstellar commerce.

Education and Jobs -- A post about jobs and the education required for them in your conworld. Note that this can apply to apprenticeship, magical tutelage, etc, not just to modern ideas of the concept.

Land & Territories

Inheriting Land -- A post about land inheritance in your conculture(s), with some nice system definitions.

City Size & Amount of Features -- A post about how big a city is in your conworld, and the amount of taverns/inns/restaurants/etc that it contains.

Types of Territories -- a post about the types of territories (kingdoms, provinces, etc) in your conworld.

Architechture -- A post about architechture in your conworld.

Biology

Causes of Death -- A post asking what your conpeople actually die of.

Reproduction -- A post about reproduction of the creatures/races in your conworld.

Rituals/Celebrations

Celebrations -- A post about celebrations in your conworld.

Awards -- A post about awards/honors/medals/etc that are given out in your conworld.

Fertility/sex/love celebrations -- A post asking about lovemaking rituals and celebrations.

Coming of Age -- A post about coming of age rituals/etc in your conworld.

New year celebrations -- A post about new year celebrations in your conworld.

Food & Drugs

Conculinary! -- A post asking about food and recipes in your conworld.

Meals! -- A post about the mealtime habits of your conpeople.

Staple Food Sources -- A post about staple foods (ie, rice, wheat, corn) in your conculture(s).

Psychoactive Chemicals -- A post about, well, drugs in your conworld.

Cultural

Conart and Conmusic -- A post about art and music in your conworld.

Language/History Trees -- A post about tracing back to the roots of a particular conculture, in terms of language, culture, etc.

The poor and homeless -- A post asking about your conculture(s)'s stance on dealing with the poor and/or homeless.

Disabilities -- A post about how people with disabilities are treated (both definitions of that word).

Slavery -- A post about how your concultures deal with Slavery.

Bathing -- A post about bathing, personal hygeine, and any taboos that come with it.

Grooming -- A post about grooming habits in your conworld, ie hair brushing.


Science

Astronomy/Astrology -- A post about how your conpeople deal with those things in the sky. Note also that your world may have different things in the sky than other worlds (it seems common to have two moons, for some reason!)

Calendar conversion -- A post asking about different calendars and how they are converted into earth dates. (Especially useful if your world has a different amount of hours in a day, days in a year, etc)

Clock Time -- A post about how your conpeople measure time.

Traditional Medicine -- A post asking about traditional forms of medicine (ie, herbs, aura healing, etc) in your conworld.

Races/Creatures

Conworld Races -- A post about the non-human races in your conworld.

The Non-human Sentient Species Consensus -- Quite a mouthful. A great way of classifying the creatures in your conworld that are sentient but not human (or not even necessarily races).

Racism -- A post about racism. Not necessarily limited to human races either; ie a bunch of elves could hate dwarves, or dragons may want to declare genocide on phoenixes, etc.

Non-corporeal creatures -- a post asking about cultures and implications of non-corporeal (read: ghosts, demons, etc) creatures in your conworld.

Dragons & Phoenixes -- A post about two very common mythological creatures and how they appear in your conworld, if they do.

Non-human Morality -- A post about the morality and ethics of non-human races in your conworld.

Misc

Characters -- A post about specific characters in your conworld.

Metachronology -- A post about reconciling two different conworlds that you have; also a post about thinking of your conworld's history in the VERY long-term (ie, millenia).

Conworld tidbits

This next section gives links where you give some overall idea of your world or small facts about it.

Annoying... -- If you went to your conworld, what would be the most annoying thing? If someone from your conworld came here, what would THEY find the most annoying?

Disgusting... -- Same as above, but about what would be most disgusting.

Game of Contrasts -- Contrast one aspect of your world with an aspect of another's, in game format.

Ten point description -- Describe the ten main features of your conworld.

Conworld Tidbit Game -- Tell about one aspect of your conworld according to the topic given.

Conworld Rant Game -- Tell about one aspect of your conworld, after giving questions and comments to the last aspect (note: short posts).

Games and challenges

The next section gives a list of posts where you make up a small conworld in a kind of game. Very casual, this section!

Make a gov system -- a game where you make a new government system according to the culture posted.

Make these work together game -- a game where you reconcile three different facts into a new culture.

Make these work toegether game II -- another one.

Collaborative Conworld -- an old collaborative conworld project, mostly dead but still worth a look or an addition.


Tried to update the URLs to something that would work.
Topic: Conworld summaries (1 paragraph)
chiarizio

Replies: 11
Views: 3358
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:02 am Subject: Conworld summaries (1 paragraph)
Adpihi is a world very much like Earth which was accidentally settled by a group of colonists who meant to settle somewhere else. They don’t know where they are exactly, don’t know exactly which direction Earth is nor exactly how far away it is, and even if they figured that out, they don’t know how to re-contact Earth. So they manage to colonize their whole planet, then the local star’s system of planets-and-satellites-and-asteroids, then get ready to send missions to the stars nearest-neighbors to their own star; then encounter an intelligent “alien” species, then re-contact Earth.
Adpihi are all religious; it colors everything they do or say or think.

Reptigan is the successor culture to Adpihi. At their peak they consist of seven-to-twelve species, inhabiting up to 500 celestial bodies (some of which are planets), orbiting up to 200 stars. all numbers subject to change! Reptigan are very punctilious about etiquette. They are also very tolerant of differences. They are strong believers in political equality, and also extremely practical solvers of problems practicing political equality at interstellar distances, and makers and acceptors of compromises over conflicts for which there is no ideal solution. Reptigan have a well-deserved reputation for being bold; and not just human Reptigan, all Reptigan regardless of species or home world. Bold, but not foolhardy.

The multiracial fantasy world doesn’t have a name yet. It contains canon-trope-like dwarves who are cave-and-mountain people (“Mine People”); canon-trope-like woods elves (“Forest People” aka “Tree Shepherds”); humans (“Men”, “Plains People”, “Grass People”); and Mer-Centaurs (“Lake People”, “River People”). The whole point of this world is to find out how the races can get along. Most of the Lake People won’t naturally have much contact with most of the Mountain People. If one wants to transport something by (fresh)water, one needs the River People’s help if the trip is a long one. If one wants to transport something overland, one needs the Plains People’s help if the trip is a long one. And plains and forests can be neighbors to each other; and either can be neighbor to either mountains or lakes. And Dwarves are the best metalworkers and jewelers, and Elves are the best woodworkers, and Mer-Centaurs are the best fishers. Plainspeople are the best marksmen with missile weapons, the best caravan-masters, and the best wicker-workers. Probably the best herders, too. If you want something dug out of the ground, a Dwarf is your best go-to digger. When petroleum is discovered to be valuable, and discovered to be abundant under the desert sand, Human caravan truckers take the Dwarven engineers to and from the wells, truck in their supplies, truck out their barrels of crude; while Dwarven engineers do all the digging. Once travelling across salt water becomes a thing, it will turn out that mer-centaurs are the best sailors; but every ship will want a Human navigator and a Dwarven engineer and an Elven carpenter.
I intend bigotry to be a problem. For any given pair of races, there will be some members of the first race who just can’t stand the second race.
Topic: Conworld tidbit game
chiarizio

Replies: 80
Views: 24209
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:19 am Subject: Conworld tidbit game
Oops 😬 🙊! Embarassed
I should have responded to Avjunza’s “TOYS”!

bloodb4roses wrote:


HATS or HEADGEAR


In Adpihi people’s headgear depends on the season, the climate, the local ecology, their jobs, and what they can afford. Those who have a choice, take great care in their choice (which is mostly based on their personal aesthetics), and also great pride in it.

In Reptigan the main thing about hats is the hat-etiquette which is observed so strictly by members of the Service Corps. There’s more to it than this —— e.g. it can depend on what duty one is assigned —— but the main thing that comes to my mind is, when in uniform and indoors, one should wear one’s uniform hat if and only if one is armed, and one should go bare-headed if and only if one is unarmed.

In my dwarves-elves-humans-mercentaurs conworld, what hat one wears depends partly on what race one is.
Dwarves typically wear hard hats with a light above the forehead, angled just a little bit down (so they won’t have to look directly at their feet to see what they’re about to step in!). Because dwarves spend 40 hours a week in mines.
Humans usually wear broad-brimmed flat-brimmed hats to shade their faces and necks from the sun. Because they’re usually working in grasslands with few trees taller than people. The brims on these hats are adjustable, to keep e.g. rain out of their faces and away from their collars. They often (or usually?) have veils or earmuffs or something like that that they can deploy from the hat in case the wind gets cold or the rain starts falling sideways or there’s something like a duststorm of pollen or dandelion fluff or whatever.
Elves generally work in the woods. What they need a hat for generally falls from straight up. Mostly (gentled) rain; also the excretions of arboreal animals; and things that fall from trees. Usually not branches, unless they’re working on pruning the trees, or lumberjacking. Often fruits or seeds or nuts. Once in a while, depending on what sorts of trees are around, really big, heavy nuts.
I can’t think of any reason any mercentaur would ever wear a hat.


Next:

CANDY
Topic: Dragons and Phoenixes
chiarizio

Replies: 64
Views: 17502
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:15 pm Subject: Dragons and Phoenixes
Last time I saw this thread and it’s poll, I hadn’t thought of a fantasy conworlds.
Now I’ve thought of a dwarves + elves + humans + mer-centaurs conworld.
It will have dragons 🐉, but they’ll be artifacts built by smiths (which will mostly be dwarves). They’ll probably be intelligent 🤓 artifacts, or at least the interesting ones probably will be.
Not sure 🤔 about phoenixes.
Topic: Dwarven Women & their Facial Hair
chiarizio

Replies: 8
Views: 802
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:32 am Subject: Dwarven Women & their Facial Hair
In Dungeons-&-Dragons -related settings —- and maybe to some degree also in Tolkienesque and maybe some other settings — facial hair (beards and mustaches etc.) is worn by adult members of the “Dwarven Race”; not only their men, but also their women.

(Maybe this post is somewhat “Canon Critique”? But I think it mostly belongs here.)

I have been thinking about this. (If you want to know why, see *below.)

I think Dwarven girls should be smooth-faced until puberty.
Between pubescence and full young-womanhood they should grow a mustache that gets gradually more luxurious.
When they’re mature enough to be sexually active and conceive and bear children, the lusher their mustaches the more attractive they should be.

But they should still be beardless during their youth. Their cheeks and chins and necks should stay smooth, at least until they are old enough to be grandmothers, and maybe until menopause.

As menopause approaches their beards should start to “come in”.
A post-menopausal Dwarven woman’s beard should be (almost?) as “good” as a man’s. Perhaps without the grey of a silverback male’s, at least at first.

Depending on the story’s author or the game’s creator, either sex, or neither, or both, may fall victim to a “cult of youth” — an idea that in order to be beautiful and/or attractive one must appear young.
If and when and where Dwarven women are so victimized, I expect a woman who is pre-menopausal to shave and/or lighten her beard —- if she has one —- to emphasize that she’s still young enough to have children. (Maybe if she’s black she’d darken it instead of lightening it.)

OTOH post-menopausal women should be, on average, more industrious and productive than the average Dwarven man or young woman.

They should be crackerjack miners, armorers, jewelers, and smiths of all sorts— blacksmiths, coppersmiths, tinsmiths, goldsmiths, silversmiths, etc.

If they have any handicap at all, relative to male Dwarves their age, it should only be that some of those male Dwarves were busy practicing their crafts during the years the women were busy with their children.

So Dwarven women d’un certain age should be proud of their beards.

If the young adult Dwarf men were mostly busy fighting and/or adventuring during those years, I think they would have thus surrendered their advantage over the women by middle-age.

I don’t expect Dwarf women would like to fight, while they could count on a male Dwarf to fight for them.
But consider a widow who has just become a grandmother. Suppose her son or son-in-law is unavailable (imprisoned or dead or injured or just away on a long journey), and her grandchild’s other grandfather is likewise unable to fight for her children and grandchildren. And similarly (or whatever) no uncles can be counted on.

I expect she would consider herself competent to take up the mantle and fight for her family’s benefit.
Especially if the other grandmother could also help.

What say all of you?

———————————

*. I have been reading the graphic novel series “Rat Queens”.
One of the self-styled “Queens” is a young Dwarven fighter-chick-in-chainmail (NOT a chain mail bikini, thank the gods!) who is red-haired and allegedly “a hipster”. In the first two TPBs she is smooth-faced, something her twin brother disapproves of. In the 3rd & 4th TPBs she re-grows her beard, because “it used to be shaving was making a statement; now it’s just something all the kids are doing. Besides, I’m way hotter with the beard.”.

But she never does grow a mustache.

I think she still looks quite feminine in a beard short enough to reveal the shape of her face — maybe up to one or two inches? I don’t know; I’m guessing.
But with a longer beard — four to six inches or longer? Still guessing— she doesn’t look feminine to me (YMMV) in spite of having a THICC, well-muscled, fighting-fit, “young-motherly” figure.

That’s what inspired me to think about this.
Topic: Dwarven Women & their Facial Hair
chiarizio

Replies: 8
Views: 802
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:09 pm Subject: Dwarven Women & their Facial Hair
bloodb4roses wrote:
I think this is a good look at it. There's still room for gender/sex difference (although I'm sure as in all things in nature, there would be some overlap, such as dwarven women who get their beards early, or men who get them late or very lightly), but not in a human manner.

Yes. Thanks.
I didn’t say anything about the Dwarven men nor boys.
I did imply that the boys started beard-like facial down at puberty (progressing to full beards at maturity);
and that senior men had grey in their beards (the older the greyer).

I thought about what happens to Dwarvesses (?) who stay single or childless or have no grandchildren. Also to widowed mothers; and to young grandmothers. And I thought a bit about great-grandmothers.

But I didn’t write any of that in the post.
Topic: Dwarven Women & their Facial Hair
chiarizio

Replies: 8
Views: 802
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:51 pm Subject: Dwarven Women & their Facial Hair
Hey;
Does anyone think I ought to make a conworld in which there is a “race” of Dwarves, who aren’t simply a variety of the Human species?
Maybe a different species in genus Homo, like Homo floresiensis?
Or a subspecies, like H. sapiens neandertalensis?
Or a race, like Pygmies or Andaman islanders?

My feeling is that it would have to be more sword-and-sorcery fantasy, and less science-fiction.

Whaddaya think?
Topic: Dwarven Women & their Facial Hair
chiarizio

Replies: 8
Views: 802
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:37 am Subject: Dwarven Women & their Facial Hair
bloodb4roses wrote:
elemtilas wrote:

Hm. Dwarves in space could be interesting, mind. Probably make grand engineers! I mean, when they aren't getting rowdy and drunk with the Scots engineers!


Mining meteors Wink


Well, comets, asteroids, and moons, more like, I’m thinking.
Would they engineer instead of smith?

I wonder if they would make good physicians, or good paramedics?
Topic: Dwarven Women & their Facial Hair
chiarizio

Replies: 8
Views: 802
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:31 pm Subject: Dwarven Women & their Facial Hair
I’d like to hear more about Dwarrows in The World.

————————

I’m not-obsessed-exactly with two or three ideas regarding smiths, in a world where moderns meet ancients.

1. Smiths break chains. So smiths are foes of slavery and allies of abolitionists.

2. Dragons are not natural creatures, but they do exist; they are artificial organisms forged and engineered by smiths. They’re some of them also artificially intelligent.

3. Most of the local natives of the ancient culture come from a tradition wherein rich people eat meat and tasty fine food, and it’s a point of pride not to eat the kind of food poor people eat. But smiths’ guild founder (right term?) was a modern and knew about cholesterol and saturated fat and complex carbohydrates and four major food groups and vitamins and fiber and so forth and so on; and smiths eat for strength and health, not for snobbery. Since so many of the second generation of smiths were her/his freedmen, they emulated him/her out of gratitude; so anyone a smith is taking care of is probably going to eat healthy. An occasional upper class patient will regard that as part of their suffering, and be glad to escape it when they’re cured or ransomed or whatever. OTOH others will learn new habits.

—————

If we combine those ideas with the notions that most smiths either are Dwarves or adopt many dwarven customs, and that smithing is one of the biggest occupations among Dwarves, we get to Dwarven engineers and Dwarven paramedics.
Also Dwarven abolitionist activists!
Topic: Ethics and morality in conworlds
chiarizio

Replies: 14
Views: 1974
PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:29 am Subject: Ethics and morality in conworlds
My non-fictional understanding of ethics is that it evolves as an intraspecies thing; it's between conspecific individuals, or an individual and a group of its conspecifics.

A species finds it necessary to evolve an ethical system -- and will, given time, and if it survives, evolve one -- if its members depend for sustenance and defense on a group of their conspecifics in such a way that the interests of the individual are sometimes parallel with but sometimes at odds with the interests of the group of which they are members.

Or that's what I've heard.

Between-species ethics, I'd think, would evolve when there was some kind of symbiosis or commensalism or parasitism or other association lasting many lifetimes and many generations of each species involved. Domestication is essentially the same thing as slavery; we call it "slavery" if the domesticated organism is human, we call it "domestication" otherwise.

Or, so I've heard.

To me, one of the good reasons a Creator might have created the human race (and other intelligent species), might be to find out what ethics should (or could) be like between beings who were essentially equals, or close to equals. A Creator would have absolutely no experience dealing with even one equal. He/She/It/They would have no experiential knowledge on which to base an ethical system (a Ten Commandments, for instance) for a species of many co-equal individuals. But He/She/It/They might want to find out.

_____________________________________________________________

There are essentially, so far, three kinds of intelligent beings in my con-universe;
  • humans (in various groups some of which sometimes conflict with each other)
  • artificial intelligences
  • aliens (so far "space centipedes" stand in for all alien biological intelligences).

    The A.I.s will have an ethics worked out based around having started out as living for the purposes of serving humans (and eventually perhaps other biological intelligences as well), but having advanced to the point that it is in the better interests of these human and non-human natural intelligences to allow the A.I.s freedom -- they can "serve us better" if they're "free". They'll have a built-in imperative to work out a modus vivendi with each other, and to find a way to resolve conflicts such as needing the same resource when there's not enough to go around, or when one of them will have to have it first and another will have to wait for it.

    The "space centipedes" will have their own ethics among each other. So far the ethics between humans-on-the-one-hand and space-centipedes-on-the-other-hand are based around reaching reasonable agreements and then sticking to them; and not one-sidedly deciding that they need to be changed or that exceptions should be made.
    For instance, "space centipedes" prefer planets massing about two to three Earth masses, orbiting K-class stars (stars of spectral type K, that is, "orange dwarves"). Humans OTOH prefer planets of 0.85 to 1.25 Earth masses orbiting G-class stars ("yellow dwarves"). Past a certain point in history, all space-going members of each species know that an agreement exists that, if anyone finds a planet that would be of more benefit to the other species than to their own, they will notify the other species, and hold off on exploiting the planet until they've got permission from the other species. So if a space-centipede finds a habitable planet lighter than 1.5 Earth masses orbiting a G or F star, he/she/whatever will notify the human government; and if a human finds a habitable planet heavier than 1.5 Earth masses orbiting a K or M star, he/she will notify the space-centipede government.

    Although, with few exceptions, all the 1.5-Earth-mass-or-heavier worlds around K-or-cooler stars that either species find will be "the property of" the space-centipedes, and all the 1.5-Earth-mass-or-lighter worlds around G-or-hotter stars that either species find will be "the property of" humanity; still, each species will (mostly) welcome settlers belonging to the other species. The main point is to not put up obstacles to settlement by the species to whom the planet "belongs". Usually most humans won't be as comfortable on the worlds belonging to the centipedes anyway, and most centipedes won't be as comfortable on the worlds belong to the humans anyway.

    The centipedes will be better adapted, biologically, to spending more time in deeper space sooner and with less technological support than humans. So artificial habitats not really close to planets, will usually either be mostly centipede-inhabited early on, or will attract centipede residents earlyish. If such a habitat is built for, and at the behest of, humanity, they'll probably contract centipede construction-workers for the early part of building it. But a well-developed an long-established habitat will probably have several inhabitants from each species.

    Inter-species "ethics" will build up gradually, over time, based on the principles of
  • announcing your intention
  • verifying that the other party understands your intention
  • verifying that the other party has no objections, or that all objections have been met satisfactorily
  • explaining any misgivings, reservations, caveats, quibbles, doubts, differences, objections, or what have you, as they arise, and working them out before proceeding, if possible.

    _____________________________________________________________

    Mating between human and AI, or centipede and AI, or human and centipede, will of course be out of the question.
    But inter-species marriage will "be a thing".
    Humans will be in the habit of marrying three times.
    The first two marriages are for reproduction; and so must be between individuals of opposite sex and the same species.
    But the third marriage is supposed to be for companionship. (It may be political or economic as well or instead). So third marriages will often be same-sex, or different-species.
    Note that this idea originates among the humans, and the way I've just described it makes it clear that it originally makes perfect sense only for humans.
    But I'm sure the AIs will quickly see the advantage of marriage, whether to other AIs or the the human or alien they want to take care of, or the human or alien whom they want to be cared for by.
    The space-centipedes will probably gradually come along on the track of "what a weird idea! but, come to think of it, why not?".

    Also, the humans who are not members of the main fictional culture, may have different ideas, and may enthusiastically adopt, or instead fiercely resist, or maybe just ignore, the ideas of the main fictional culture.

    _____________________________________________________________

    Do you think intelligent honeybees' ethics would consider it cruel not to sting their brothers (the drones) to a quick death, when the hive has to move out to a different location?
    I think Darwin (or someone) said as much!
    Topic: Ethics and morality in conworlds
    chiarizio

    Replies: 14
    Views: 1974
    PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:50 pm Subject: Ethics and morality in conworlds
    Extremely interesting, @elemtilas!

    ——————————

    A comment: The chance of reduplicated harmful recessive genes being doubly inherited by offspring, is no greater, (or perhaps not significantly greater), for an ancestor-descendant mating, than any random mating, if there are enough generations between the ancestor and the descendant.
    There could be other reasons to make it taboo.
    Maybe it would violate a co-eponymy taboo; that might rule out some ancestors but not others.
    Or maybe it would violate an age-difference taboo.
    Or the society might simply forbid ancestor-descendant pairings without reference to reason.
    I think, if both individuals were the last surviving fertile members of their sexes, the taboo would be suspended. (And also suspended in certain less-extreme circumstances.)

    ——————————

    In Adpihi there are taboos against coeponymous marriages and coeponymous sexual intercourse, that are thought of in the same way as incest taboos.
    Third marriages, though, are ideally expected to be between people neither of whom is still fertile. So rules about them are a lot more lax in many ways. One way is, they can be the same sex; another is, they can be one or two degrees more closely related.

    In Adpihi’s successor culture Reptigan, the third-marriage idea has evolved somewhat. Now there are more than one species of citizen. If two people are both past the age where they are physiologically able to, or are legally allowed to, or psychosociologically want to, reproduce; then why shouldn’t they be allowed to marry, if they want?
    However in Reptigan, one cannot marry one’s direct nor collateral ancestors nor descendants, no matter how distant the relationship. Or at least that’s true in early Reptigan; there may be some political agitation for loosening the stringency of such rules in certain circumstances.

    Anyhow, interspecies dating and marriage is just fine, if neither party is likely to ever reproduce again. They may be nowhere close to the same chronological age, but they’ll be considered the same biological and sociological age, or close to it.

    Interestingly, Reptigan has rules against marrying in-laws and step-relatives. These rules are less strict when some of the marriages involved are non-reproduction-capable.

    The rules against coeponymous marriage and fornication are the same in Reptigan as in Adpihi; but they are much less of an obstacle in Reptigan because there are so many more family-names. (Or line-names, or clan-names, or whatever they call them).

    ————————————————————

    Neither Adpihi nor Reptigan have anything the people recognize as slavery.
    And if some of them start thinking something is slavery, they start wanting to abolish it, even if the rest of them don’t think it’s slavery.

    But some extreme criminal penalties involve forfeiture of much or even all of the convict’s property; loss of some, or all, right to own or acquire property; and/or exclusion from some, or many, or most, or almost all, avenues of gainful employment. That’s almost as bad as slavery. It’s never hereditary, and only in extreme cases is it lifetime permanent. If a temporary restriction on freedom of movement is added, it might as well be slavery while it lasts.

    Prisoners of war are slaves until the war is over, when they are automatically freed. But they have some rights that some convicts (permanently or temporarily) don’t have. The main one is they can’t be forced to aid their captors’ war-effort. It’s not very different from the Geneva conventions on POWs.
    Wars are infrequent, mostly short, and mostly limited in scope, in Adpihi. There hasn’t been one yet in Reptigan; but there’s reasonable fear that there might one day be one. So they’ve kept the rules from Adpihi.

    —————

    Added in edit:
    In my dwarves&elves&mines&forests world — whatever I’ll call it — somebody will definitely have slaves. I don’t know who it will be. But it definitely won’t be the dwarves. All smiths (regardless of race) and all dwarves (regardless of profession) will be abolitionists.
    Topic: OceanGoing Ships in my MultiRacial Fantasy ConWorld
    chiarizio

    Replies: 0
    Views: 61
    PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:38 am Subject: OceanGoing Ships in my MultiRacial Fantasy ConWorld
    In my so-far-unnamed multiracial fantasy conworld, I have just said (in a different thread), that, when ocean-going ships “become a thing”, the best sailors will be the Mer-Centaurs; but every ship will want a Human navigator and an Elven carpenter and a Dwarven engineer.

    I think more could be said.
    I’ll bet they’d also want their top two officers to be a Human and a Mer-Centaur. Either a Human captain with a MerCentaur 2nd-in-command, or a MerCentaur captain with a Human second.
    If the ship is wind-powered, there’ll probably be some duties requiring a sailor to climb a mast. If a mast is very tall and/or the ship has many masts, these duties would best be assigned to Elves. So a “clipper”, for example, would want several Elvish sailors. OTOH they’d also want enough MerCentaur sailors to handle any duties involving going into the water, such as rescuing Elves who fell overboard without learning to swim first. Or, actually, most duties that didn’t involve leaving the deck or climbing the rigging.
    If the ship is steam-powered, they might want the “black gang” to consist mostly of Dwarves.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_gang_%28ship%29

    If the ship is made of metal, they might not need a carpenter.

    —————

    I can’t think of any reason why one race should be more or less likely to own a ship than any other race.

    But it would seem there’d be no place for bigotry at sea.

    —————

    Would that make a good story title? “Bigot At Sea”?
    Topic: Race, Races, and Racism
    chiarizio

    Replies: 38
    Views: 8296
    PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:32 pm Subject: Race, Races, and Racism
    I am now toying with the idea of introducing Dwarves as a race into some new fantasy con world, I guess I should make a post here now. So far, I have only worked with the positive and the neutral stereotypes other people have of dwarves. Since I have mentioned that some Dwarves are white and some dwarves are black, I may have locked myself into the idea that skin color is not the basis of any division of any of my peoples into races. The Dwarves are obviously distinguished By their stature. Dwarven women are distinguished by their facial facial hair. And dwarves tend to live in certain places; essentially, places where valuable and or useful metals or gemstones are easily mined. Ytterby would be a good place , for instance. In fact if such a race existed on the real life Planet Earth, dwarves could be found on nearly every continent and in nearly every climate, or at least nearly every latitude. South Africa for gold, Mexico for silver, Utah for copper, Malaysia for tin, Australia for zinc, Minnesota for iron, Australia for aluminum, South Africa and Russia for platinum, Botswana and Russia for diamonds, Colombia for emeralds, Myanmar for Rubies, etc.

    ——————
    Damn auto correct for any errors above.
    ————
    Dwarves are short whiskery Abolitionist health nuts Who eat weird diets.
    To Dwarves, other people are tall folk who spent too much time in the sun or weather, Eat for Prestige instead of health, and seem perfectly content to let slavery go on.
    On the other hand, dwarves will buy produce from tall people, and tall people will buy metal items from Dwarves.
    The relationship is a little bit like that of real life pygmies and the neighboring farmers.
    Topic: Race, Races, and Racism
    chiarizio

    Replies: 38
    Views: 8296
    PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 4:11 am Subject: Race, Races, and Racism
    Some decades ago I visited the Alabama-Coushatta reservation in the Big Bend of the Rio Grande.
    I was struck by how homologous their RL history seemed to be to a yet-to-be-written story about “Woods Elves”.

    I wonder if I maybe should have a “race” of Forest People, the way I have a race of “Mine people” (i.e. Dwarves)?

    They could, like the Dwarves, come in several varieties,
    Tropical rain forest (jungle),
    Temperate deciduous forest,
    Boreal evergreen forest,
    And others.

    But they could all consider themselves, and be considered, all one “race”, regardless what type of forest and type of climate they’re native to, just as the Dwarves consider themselves and are considered all one race, regardless of (for instance) skin color.

    Forest folk (what should I call them) would culturally be like several different real-life and fantasy peoples. I expect they’d be especially capable defenders of forested territory, especially if they’d lived there for some time. I expect they’d be good “tree-shepherds” like JRR Tolkien’s Ents, (but not be giants). I expect they’d be good woodworkers, and could make a successful economy out of lumberjacking. I expect they’d do a better job of making their timber industry sustainable than other folks.

    Any ideas?

    Any comments on my ideas?

    I don’t know yet what if any racism would be directed at them, or would be directed by them at others. I can think of the actual injustices and/or misfortunes suffered by the actual Alabama and Coushatta; but I’m not sure that would fit into the story without looking like outright plagiarism.
    Topic: Race, Races, and Racism
    chiarizio

    Replies: 38
    Views: 8296
    PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:32 pm Subject: Race, Races, and Racism
    chiarizio wrote:

    I wondered if I maybe should have a “race” of Forest People, the way I have a race of “Mine people” (i.e. Dwarves)?
    .


    If I have Dwarves for Mine People, and Elves for Forest People, and Humans for Plains People;
    Might I be able to use some Lake&River People?

    Could they be Mer-Centaurs?
    Topic: Slavery
    chiarizio

    Replies: 18
    Views: 6120
    PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:41 am Subject: Slavery
    Adpihi and Reptigan don’t have slavery, and would hate the idea.

    My unnamed and mostly-unformed dwarves-and-mines and elves-and-woods and humans-and-plains and maybe-I-don’t-know-merfolk-and-lakes-and-rivers world, certainly has slavery, because the dwarves are so adamantly against it. But I don’t know any deets yet.
    I suppose POWs might be the major source of slaves.

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    Topic: scifantasy space travel
    chiarizio

    Replies: 4
    Views: 961
    PostForum: WIP conworlds Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:50 am Subject: scifantasy space travel
    I once read an SF story in which stars had a psychology.
    In order to make a really long-distance jump, our heroes had to get too close to a crotchety old bachelor star — a red (giant? dwarf?) without any planets nor any companion stars.
    It threw them forcefully away so they’d stop bothering it.
    This was all scientific.
    It was science our heroes didn’t understand; but they learned the technologies from a multispecies civilization that included other humans like themselves.
    Topic: So-far-unnamed Fantasy Multi-Racial Conworld
    chiarizio

    Replies: 0
    Views: 58
    PostForum: WIP conworlds Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:49 pm Subject: So-far-unnamed Fantasy Multi-Racial Conworld
    An Earthlike world inhabited by several realistic(?) species or sub-species or genera, all(?) belonging to the same taxonomic family.

    It has Humans just like us for Plains People in its grasslands and savannahs and prairies and steppes.
    It has Dwarves for Mine People in its mountain ranges and caves.
    It has Elves for its Forest People in its forests and woods.

    —————

    The reason for the parenthesized question-marks above is;
    I also think I might want a Lakes-and-Rivers People; and I think I might want them to be Mer-Centaurs.
    Topic: WIP conspecies
    chiarizio

    Replies: 29
    Views: 4490
    PostForum: WIP conworlds Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:10 am Subject: WIP conspecies
    Well, more about dwarves and elves, in the last 48 hours.
    Dwarves are water savers, like kangaroo rats, whose nitrogenous wastes are solid uric acid.
    Topic: WIP conspecies
    chiarizio

    Replies: 29
    Views: 4490
    PostForum: WIP conworlds Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:34 pm Subject: Mer-Centaurs for Lake People?
    chiarizio wrote:

    I wondered if I maybe should have a “race” of Forest People, the way I have a race of “Mine people” (i.e. Dwarves)?
    .


    If I have Dwarves for Mine People, and Elves for Forest People, and Humans for Plains People;
    Might I be able to use some Lake&River People?

    Could they be Mer-Centaurs?

    Page 1 of 1

    Posted February 3rd by chiarizio


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    Author Message
    Topic: The Adjustment Bureau
    chiarizio

    Replies: 5
    Views: 306
    PostForum: Canon critique Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:48 pm Subject: The Adjustment Bureau
    I just finished watching The Adjustment Bureau.

    All of the “members” of the Adjustment Bureau look like human men in business suits. (The only exception mentioned is the Chairman, who apparently can look like anything, but usually looks like some kind of human — with lots of variety. )

    They say they aren’t human, but they’re similar. They don’t lead with their emotions the way humans do, but they have human emotions. They don’t live forever but they live a lot longer than people. As a bureau they’ve been around at least since before there were quite humans. It’s not clear how many individual members have been around longer than that.

    I’m wondering; Are they a single-sex species? Do they reproduce only asexually? Is it just that all their secondary sexual characteristics are covered up by business suits? Do both sexes have masculine-sounding-to-us voices? How about facial hair? Or male-pattern baldness?

    Maybe they’re angels? One of them says “we’ve been called that”. Then would they have any need at all for genitalia? If they did, would they be non-lactating hermaphrodites?

    Maybe they’re like LotR dwarves or D&D dwarves? But then, why only flat chests?

    Page 1 of 1

    Posted February 3rd by chiarizio

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    Topic: Conworld(s) Status Updates
    chiarizio

    Replies: 195
    Views: 62856
    PostForum: General Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:43 pm Subject: Conworld(s) Status Updates
    I’ve done more about Adpihi and Reptigan.

    Reptigan now has class exogamy.
    There are ways richer people can sponsor promising young adults and adolescents from not-rich families.

    I’ve modified Adpihi’s (and Reptigan’s) anthroponymic naming-systems slightly, as regards “forenames” (individual personal names).
    I’ve also added traditions between grandparents and their children-in-law who are the parents of their grandchildren.
    And I’ve made progress on the Adpihi language’s native terms for matriclan and patriclan and “rope”. Right now I’m looking at “milk-house” for matriclan, “blood-path” for patriclan, and “robe” for geun or alterclan.
    And there may be more.

    And I have a new multiracial fantasy conworld!
    It has
    “Plains People” (aka Men or Humans),
    “Mine People” (aka Dwarves),
    “Woods People” (aka Elves), and
    “Lake and River People” (aka MerCentaurs).
    I’ve said a few things about them.

    And I’ve made a few decisions about the people who speak my conlang Arpien.
    I wonder whether they should be the Plains People in my multiracial fantasy world?

    Page 1 of 1

    Posted February 3rd by chiarizio


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    conworlds.fun Forum Index
    Author Message
    Topic: Race, Races, and Racism
    chiarizio

    Replies: 38
    Views: 8296
    PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:32 pm Subject: Race, Races, and Racism
    I am now toying with the idea of introducing Dwarves as a race into some new fantasy con world, I guess I should make a post here now. So far, I have only worked with the positive and the neutral stereotypes other people have of dwarves. Since I have mentioned that some Dwarves are white and some dwarves are black, I may have locked myself into the idea that skin color is not the basis of any division of any of my peoples into races. The Dwarves are obviously distinguished By their stature. Dwarven women are distinguished by their facial facial hair. And dwarves tend to live in certain places; essentially, places where valuable and or useful metals or gemstones are easily mined. Ytterby would be a good place , for instance. In fact if such a race existed on the real life Planet Earth, dwarves could be found on nearly every continent and in nearly every climate, or at least nearly every latitude. South Africa for gold, Mexico for silver, Utah for copper, Malaysia for tin, Australia for zinc, Minnesota for iron, Australia for aluminum, South Africa and Russia for platinum, Botswana and Russia for diamonds, Colombia for emeralds, Myanmar for Rubies, etc.

    ——————
    Damn auto correct for any errors above.
    ————
    Dwarves are short whiskery Abolitionist health nuts Who eat weird diets.
    To Dwarves, other people are tall folk who spent too much time in the sun or weather, Eat for Prestige instead of health, and seem perfectly content to let slavery go on.
    On the other hand, dwarves will buy produce from tall people, and tall people will buy metal items from Dwarves.
    The relationship is a little bit like that of real life pygmies and the neighboring farmers.
    Topic: Dwarven Women & their Facial Hair
    chiarizio

    Replies: 8
    Views: 802
    PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:32 am Subject: Dwarven Women & their Facial Hair
    In Dungeons-&-Dragons -related settings —- and maybe to some degree also in Tolkienesque and maybe some other settings — facial hair (beards and mustaches etc.) is worn by adult members of the “Dwarven Race”; not only their men, but also their women.

    (Maybe this post is somewhat “Canon Critique”? But I think it mostly belongs here.)

    I have been thinking about this. (If you want to know why, see *below.)

    I think Dwarven girls should be smooth-faced until puberty.
    Between pubescence and full young-womanhood they should grow a mustache that gets gradually more luxurious.
    When they’re mature enough to be sexually active and conceive and bear children, the lusher their mustaches the more attractive they should be.

    But they should still be beardless during their youth. Their cheeks and chins and necks should stay smooth, at least until they are old enough to be grandmothers, and maybe until menopause.

    As menopause approaches their beards should start to “come in”.
    A post-menopausal Dwarven woman’s beard should be (almost?) as “good” as a man’s. Perhaps without the grey of a silverback male’s, at least at first.

    Depending on the story’s author or the game’s creator, either sex, or neither, or both, may fall victim to a “cult of youth” — an idea that in order to be beautiful and/or attractive one must appear young.
    If and when and where Dwarven women are so victimized, I expect a woman who is pre-menopausal to shave and/or lighten her beard —- if she has one —- to emphasize that she’s still young enough to have children. (Maybe if she’s black she’d darken it instead of lightening it.)

    OTOH post-menopausal women should be, on average, more industrious and productive than the average Dwarven man or young woman.

    They should be crackerjack miners, armorers, jewelers, and smiths of all sorts— blacksmiths, coppersmiths, tinsmiths, goldsmiths, silversmiths, etc.

    If they have any handicap at all, relative to male Dwarves their age, it should only be that some of those male Dwarves were busy practicing their crafts during the years the women were busy with their children.

    So Dwarven women d’un certain age should be proud of their beards.

    If the young adult Dwarf men were mostly busy fighting and/or adventuring during those years, I think they would have thus surrendered their advantage over the women by middle-age.

    I don’t expect Dwarf women would like to fight, while they could count on a male Dwarf to fight for them.
    But consider a widow who has just become a grandmother. Suppose her son or son-in-law is unavailable (imprisoned or dead or injured or just away on a long journey), and her grandchild’s other grandfather is likewise unable to fight for her children and grandchildren. And similarly (or whatever) no uncles can be counted on.

    I expect she would consider herself competent to take up the mantle and fight for her family’s benefit.
    Especially if the other grandmother could also help.

    What say all of you?

    ———————————

    *. I have been reading the graphic novel series “Rat Queens”.
    One of the self-styled “Queens” is a young Dwarven fighter-chick-in-chainmail (NOT a chain mail bikini, thank the gods!) who is red-haired and allegedly “a hipster”. In the first two TPBs she is smooth-faced, something her twin brother disapproves of. In the 3rd & 4th TPBs she re-grows her beard, because “it used to be shaving was making a statement; now it’s just something all the kids are doing. Besides, I’m way hotter with the beard.”.

    But she never does grow a mustache.

    I think she still looks quite feminine in a beard short enough to reveal the shape of her face — maybe up to one or two inches? I don’t know; I’m guessing.
    But with a longer beard — four to six inches or longer? Still guessing— she doesn’t look feminine to me (YMMV) in spite of having a THICC, well-muscled, fighting-fit, “young-motherly” figure.

    That’s what inspired me to think about this.

    Page 1 of 1

    Posted February 3rd by chiarizio


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    Topic: Marriage, Descent, Residence, Death, Funerary Customs, etc.
    chiarizio

    Replies: 55
    Views: 83772
    PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:08 pm Subject: Marriage, Descent, Residence, Death, Funerary Customs, etc.
    Cerne wrote:
    I never said I objected to the words you used. I only said they didn't mean what you were using them for.
    I don't get the distinction.

    Cerne wrote:
    The two cases that I pointed out involve the FBD and MZD you said were not possible. Or were, but were universally forbidden.
    No, they're not universally forbidden; only, in a "classificatory kinship system" (more specifically, the FB=F and MZ=M type of CKS), your FBD is your sister and your MZD is also your sister; so, if such a system, were also a prescriptive-marriage system, they couldn't possibly prescribe marriage to a parallel cousin; that would be considered in those cultures to be the same as prescribing marriage to a sister, which is universally not-prescribed and near-universally forbidden or universally near-forbidden. (Egyptian royalty being a noted exception; but only the royalty, not the non-royal nobles nor the commoners.)

    Cerne wrote:
    Ah, OK. This is what I wanted to hear right from the start of this whole debate. Why should this have to happen any less than cross-cousin marriages that involve the father's sister's son/daughter? Biologically/genetically it would be exactly the same as marrying your father's brother's son/daughter (or vice versa for matrilines) and I have no idea why a taboo or restriction would be so universally held for one case but not the other. For some cultures I could see why they would allow FZS/FZD and MBS/MBD but not FBS/FBZ or MZS/MZD because of some cultural sex-alternation ideal, but it is just as easy to see a culture valuing marriages between the children of two brothers or two ststers. I don't see anything that is more inbred with that than with cross-cousin marriages in general. And as I said for the Mokuri, women don't really exist in the family so a FZS/FZD couldn't really happen. If it did, it would be like betraying your clan by putting your sister's husband's clan ahead of your own since - once married - women belong to another family.
    There's a difference between what is allowed to happen sporadically and what is required to happen always. It's true (or nearly so -- "true" if we ignore Y-chromosomes and cytoplasmic (non-nuclear) DNA) -- that my first-cousin has the same share of common variable genes as me whether she's FBD or FZD or MBD or MZD. And, in a kinship system which isn't classificatory, a parallel-cousin isn't (classed as) a sibling, so marrying an FBD or an MZD might not be considered the same as brother-sister incest. First-cousin prescriptive-marriage systems tend to be cross-cousin systems and tend to occur in classificatory kinship systems; and tend to be to the MBD most frequently, to the FZD next-most frequently.

    You have not shown me a prescriptive, as opposed to preferential, parallel-cousin marriage system. Look at the first article I quoted; "prescriptive" means you have to marry that type of relative, "preferential" means that's the preferred (somehow by someone) type of marriage.

    Cerne wrote:
    I also don't understand how these kinds of cross-cousin marriages are "economically insular."
    I don't think cross-cousin marriages are economically insular; I think prescribed patrilineal parallel-cousin marriages are economically insular. (I also think prescribed matrilineial parallel-cousin marriages are economically insular.)
    If a man must (not "should"; "must") marry his father's brother's daughter, then all dowries and bride-prices and bridewealth and prestations stay in the patriline; any kid's grandparents are each other's brothers, and any husband-and-wife share a grandfather. There is no exchange, neither through bequest nor legacy nor inheritance, nor through dowry nor bride-price nor prestation, of wealth between patrilines. Property of the sort suitable for inheritance or bridewealth does not circulate between patrilines in the society. Nobody could possibly be an heir to more than one patriline.

    A much more common arrangement would be to have two allied patrilines each of whom always married women from the other. Say the Smith clan and the Jones clan are such allies; Smith men always marry Jones women, and Jones men always marry Smith women. Then young John Smith's bride Virginia Jones could easily be both his mother's brother's daughter and his father's sister's daughter.

    Suppose Abraham Smith and Bridget nee Smith are brother and sister, and Charles Jones and Deborah nee Jones are brother and sister. Then Abraham Smith marries Deborah Jones (who becomes Deborah Smith), and Charles Jones marries Bridget Smith (who becomes Bridget Jones).
    Then Abraham Smith gets a son, Edgar Smith, on the body of his wife Deborah Jones Smith; and Charles Jones gets a daughter, Felicity Jones, on the body of his wife Bridget Smith Jones. Now it will be permissible for Edgar Smith to marry his double-cousin (a cross-cousin twice, but I didn't want to write "double-cross-cousin") Miss Felicity Jones.

    Yes, on the average, double-cousins might be expected to share about the same fraction (i.e., 50%) of variable genetic material as full-siblings, but there's usually more variance. Also, it's likely that either Abraham and Bridget are parallel-cousins instead of siblings, or Charles and Deborah are parallel-cousins instead of siblings.

    In this arrangement, bridewealth is usually returned in the next generation.

    Cerne wrote:
    me wrote:
    So it's definitely not all biological.

    It doesn't even seem to be cultural. It just looked like you played with a computer all day.
    I just remembered something I've read (and, I'm sorry, my ability to remember where I ought to attribute things to is very bad; I did read this somewhere, but it would take an effort to find out where).

    Societies in which WB=ZH (the circulum connubium is two-fold) tend to view every semantic field as falling into exactly two exhaustive and mutually exclusive classes. (Or at least this article said so). Humans do, after all; every man is either the same kind of man I am, and therefore his sisters are forbidden to me, or is the other kind of man, who may marry my sisters and whose sisters I may marry.

    Societies in which WBW=ZHZ (the circulum connubium is three-fold) tend also to view every semantic field as falling into exactly two exhaustive and mutually exclusive classes. (Or at least this article said so). Men who are "not my sort" are either wife-givers (I can marry their sisters) or else are wife-takers (they can marry my sisters). (That, by the way, would apply to my unnamed conculture that I mentioned earlier in this thread.)

    It seemed to me that a society with a four-fold circulum connubium would tend to divide any and every semantic field into three kinds; the wife-takers, the wife-givers, and "the others".

    I didn't want any of that for Adpihi, so I wanted the circulum connubium to be at least five-fold; that way there'd at least five lineages of men;
    my kind of men,
    the kind who can marry my sisters,
    the kind whose sisters I can marry,
    another kind,
    still another kind,

    I was hoping this would lead them to tend to think in terms of always including a "miscellaneous/other" type in any of their folk-typologies; to tend to be prepared to believe that, once they've classified things, chances are one of the classes could have been classified further into smaller classes.

    Now, of course, the idea that a society's marriage-and-kinship system, even if it's prescriptive and classificatory, necessarily constrains the way they think about the world, is kind of like the strong Sapir-Whorf hypothesis only with marriage-and-kinship instead of language. The idea that it guides or influences their typical first attempts at any new field of thought, though, is more like the weak S-W hypothesis, and it is arguable that that weak S-W hypothesis might be true after all; at any rate, it would be harder to refute it with data, since it's statistical and therefore can't be refuted by a single counterexample like the strong hypothesis can.

    Cerne wrote:
    What is that supposed to mean, exactly? angry1
    Sorry, didn't mean to make you angry. What I meant is I don't know how to communicate ideas that TTBOMK require mathematics to properly describe, to a person who has said sincerely that s/he doesn't see why the topic should be goverened by mathematics at all. We -- that is, the two of us -- would never have a common language (not about those topics -- other topics, we'd have less trouble). Quite possibly, though, there could be someone on the bboard who could translate for us.

    Cerne wrote:
    I never said I didn't understand what you posted.
    No; I said it.

    Cerne wrote:
    I understood all of what you posted so far,
    I don't think so.

    Cerne wrote:
    I just don't like having to pick apart and discuss huge amounts of text like that.
    That's an aspect of my personality that you don't like; and neither do several other people. I have found that when I try too hard to keep it in check some people who generally sort-of like my posts otherwise, don't like the result of me trying to keep it all short. So I just try mostly to almost keep it almost in check. I'm sorry it has irritated you. I try to keep myself from posting anything I'm sure will irritate any one specific person.

    Cerne wrote:
    I took advanced mathematics in highschool so I think I understand as much of it as you do.
    If you'd had as much mathematics as a B.S. in a science or engineering, it'd be easier for us to talk about some of the things we've had trouble with.
    I don't know how old you are; have you finished four-year college?
    If not,
    Have you graduated high-school?
    If so, what year of college are you in?
    What did your high-school mean by "advanced math" -- algebra and trigonometry and elementary functions and analytic geometry, or do you mean differential calculus, or integral calculus, or multivariate calculus?

    Cerne wrote:
    Unless you educated yourself beyond that level.
    I'm all-but-dissertation towards a doctorate in math.

    Cerne wrote:
    I probably don't like mathematics as much as you do but I know what I need to know well enough to use it when I need it.
    Could be.

    Cerne wrote:
    It seems we both have our limitations then.
    I sure as hell have mine. I'll take your word for it that you have some too.

    Cerne wrote:
    I wasn't talking about the way you explained things in your post, I meant the model you used your explanations for. THAT looked like it was created on a computer. It was completely symmetrical on both sides. Every position held by a family member looked like it was artificially put there on a pattern-making computer program. No society is that precise or methodical.
    I don't understand.

    Cerne wrote:
    You can't decide to have a son, a daughter, a son, and then another daughter at the same time your sister and her husband are having a daughter, a son, a daughter, then another son.
    In a strict sense, I do understand that; and I agree completely. In a broader sense, I don't understand what it has to do with what you objected to.

    Cerne wrote:
    Even the diagrams displayed on kinship charts and in Anthropology textbooks don't resemble real extended families. Of course, they always say these diagrams are just examples so you learn not to take them at face value.
    I didn't say that explicitly; it didn't occur to me that I needed to (maybe it should have). So, retroactively, let me say that all of them are hypothetical examples; each shows just exactly one exemplar of each relative that counts as a different sort of relative that could exist in that society. In some other society it would be different; for instance, in a Victorian English inheritance diagram, every father in the diagram would "have" two sons and one daughter, because all the daughters inherit equally but only after all the sons, whereas the sons inherit in birth-order (no son inheriting if he has a surviving older brother who could inherit instead). In a Chinese kinship-term diagram we'd want ego and each of ego's ancestors to have not only both a sister and a brother but also an older and a younger one of each; father's older brother, father's younger brother, mother's older brother, mother's younger brother, father's older sister's husband, father's younger sister's husband, mother's older sister's husband, and mother's younger sister's husband, are eight different kinterms, all of which would just be called "uncle" in English. And father's older brother's son, father's older brother's daughter, father's younger brother's son, father's younger brother's daughter, father's older sister's son, father's older sister's daughter, father's younger sister's son, father's younger sister's daughter, mother's older brother's son, mother's older brother's daughter, mother's younger brother's son, mother's younger brother's daughter, mother's older sister's son, mother's older sister's daughter, mother's younger sister's son, and mother's younger sister's daughter, are sixteen different kinterms, all of which would just be "cousin" in English.

    Cerne wrote:
    The thing is, whenever you introduce one of these models of yours, you make it seem like it needs to happen this way and that it isn't possible any other way.
    That surprises me. I never intended that. I didn't know I did that. I still don't know how I do that.
    I'll try to figure it out.

    Cerne wrote:
    That is probably why I disagree with you on these things more than anything else.
    Could you help me see how I manage to convey the wrong impression that "it needs to happen this way and isn't possible any other way"?
    And, btw, @everyone: Is Cerne the only one who reads my posts that way, or have some of the rest of you gotten the same impression?

    Cerne wrote:
    Yep. Hence the diversity in fields of knowledge among members of this board (ourselves included). Pretty cool, huh?
    Indeed! Cool

    Cerne wrote:
    My question is only why you seem so much against the idea of FBS/FBD but not FZS/FZD.
    If a man marries his MBD then she is marrying her FZS; if a man marries his FZD then she is marrying her MBS. So I'm guessing "FZS/FZD" isn't the notation you wanted. You probably wanted "MBD/FZS" and "FZD/MBS".

    The commonest kind of "prescriptive marriage system" -- that is, a system where each person who marries must only marry spouses who have a particular relationship to them, and cannot marry anyone who has a different relationship instead, nor who is not a relative at all -- is one of the first-cousin cross-cousin marriage systems, namely, a man marries his MBD or a girl classed with her. Note that perhaps none of his MBs even have any daughters-in-our-English-sense; indeed, perhaps his mother doesn't even have any brothers-in-our-English-sense. So actually this means he has to choose his bride from among women whose fathers are classed as his mother's brothers.

    If we've already said that the system is a "prescriptive marriage system" in the above sense, then when we say "it is a first-cousin-marriage system" or "it is a cross-cousin-marriage system", we mean that it allows some men to marry a first-cousin-in-our-English-sense or a cross-cousin-in-our-English-sense. In a prescriptive marriage system, in their own terms, whatever is allowed is required. So in a system that allows marriage to an MBD, every man who marries can marry only women that that system classifies as his MBDs (even if we wouldn't so classify them.)

    Parallel-cousin marriage, where either a man marries his FBD and a woman marries her FBS (father's-side parallel-cousins marry), or a man marries his MZD and a woman marries her MZS (mother's-side parallel-cousins marry), is equivalent to brother-sister marriage in "FB=F and MZ=M" classificatory kinship systems; so it can't be prescriptive in any of them. It needn't be forbidden, though; marriage to a half-sister may be allowable, especially if a man can marry both his uterine half-sister and his agnate half-sister, and each of them can marry both their uterine half-brothers and their agnate half-brothers. But even where and when that is allowed, it is never required as far as anyone knows, and perhaps even can't be required (according to some).

    Cerne wrote:
    I can't see the difference
    How different it is depends on other factors.

    Cerne wrote:
    and I don't see why the former can't use a prescriptive marriage system.
    I have tried to explain how I understand what I've read about why it can't be prescriptive. I hope I've succeeded.

    Cerne wrote:
    Alrighty then. In your terminology this time: A middle surname is not a single surname because it involves more than one sex. Instead, it is a compilation of left and right surnames stacked on top of one another.
    No; in both my unnamed conculture and Adpihi, there is no overlap between the set of allowable left surnames and the set of allowable middle surnames; nor between the set of allowable right surnames and the set of allowable middle surnames; nor between the set of allowable left surnames and the set of allowable right surnames; nor between any of the sets of surnames and some of the other sets of names.

    The middle surname is not the name of a lineage in your terminology; the right one, though, is the name of a patriclan, and the left one is the name of a matriclan.

    Incidentally; my unnamed conculture is a prescriptive-marriage-system, but Adpihi is not. In Adpihi there are 72 right surnames and 72 left surnames and 72 middle surnames. A couple can't marry if any of either one's grandparents is co-eponymous with (shares a surname with) any of the other one's grandparents. That means that, in Adpihi, for a single young eligible bachelor, about half of the marriageable young single women he meets are not "too closely related" for him to marry. (In the unnamed conculture more than 99% of such women would be "too closely related" to marry; less than 1% would actually be marriageable for him. I thought that would be too much of a hardship on the young people.)

    _________________

    Cerne wrote:
    chiarizio wrote:
    Thanks for the articles! Good reads.
    You're welcome.

    Cerne wrote:
    Both of those marriage systems were prescriptive, BTW. The sites themselves say so.
    Then (to say it as I think you have said similar things) they're using the term "prescriptive" in a way in which it can't be used.

    Some (all I noticed they talked about) of the Chinese villages that follow the general "you can't marry your FBD" rule, prefer you marry your MBD to any other marriage. What's different about some (at least one) of them is reported to apparently be that they prefer MZD marriages to FZD marriages. But all of them prefer MBD over MZD over FBD, and all of them prefer MBD over FZD over FBD.
    But since nobody must marry his MBD -- that is, a man is allowed to marry someone who isn't his MBD -- this is not "prescriptive"; it is "preferential". The authors commited a misnomer by calling it "prescriptive".

    The misnomer is even more apparent in the Hebrew system. Although six out of thirteen (46%) of the marriages recorded of the men patrilineally descended from Terah, were to brides who were also patrilineally descended from Terah, only one (8%) was to a father's half-brother's daughter, and none at all were to a father's full-brother's daughter. So not only is marriage to the FBD not "prescriptive"; it's questionable in what sense it was even "preferred".

    If you are right that I misused the terms you said I misused, then these authors have misused the term "prescriptive" in these papers.

    (You should write them a stern note. Wink )

    _____________________________________________________________

    Cerne wrote:
    That is an interesting exercise. I have done very similar exercises in my Anthropology classes when we were looking at kinship and descent groups so I am familiar with what you are talking about here. However, having a seperate descent group in the middle does not make it a single lineage. It doesn't matter if that green descent group doesn't touch the blue or pink descent groups. The fact that it seems to zig-zag from woman to man and back to woman shows that it is not a true line of descent.

    I'm reminded of how hard it was for me to convince a few people who asked the question "What if the planet rotated clockwise instead of counter-clockwise? Wouldn't the sun rise in the West and set in the East?" that that was nonsense. It rotates counter-clockwise only as seen from the North Pole; just re-label the poles if you've got it backwards, and you'll fix it. "East" is defined as "towards where the sun rises from", and "West" is defined as "towards where the sun sets". The sun can never rise in the west nor set in the east. But this is an analytic fact, not a synthetic one, in Kant's terminology. It carries no interesting data about the external world; it is just a fact of human language.

    Which lines zig-zag and which lines are straignt depends on how you draw it.

    Right Surnames:
    Code:

    MMMM=MMMF MMFM=MMFF MFMM=MFMF MFFM=MFFF FMMM=FMMF FMFM=FMFF FFMM=FFMF FFFM=FFFF
    | | | | | | | |
    MMM=======MMF MFM=======MFF FMM=======FMF FFM=======FFF
    | | | |
    MM==================MF FM==================FF
    | |
    M=======================================F
    |
    EGO

    Left Surnames:
    Code:

    MMMM=MMMF MMFM=MMFF MFMM=MFMF MFFM=MFFF FMMM=FMMF FMFM=FMFF FFMM=FFMF FFFM=FFFF
    | | | | | | | |
    MMM=======MMF MFM=======MFF FMM=======FMF FFM=======FFF
    | | | |
    MM==================MF FM==================FF
    | |
    M=======================================F
    |
    EGO

    Middle Surnames when Ego is Male:
    Code:

    MMMM=MMMF MMFM=MMFF MFMM=MFMF MFFM=MFFF FMMM=FMMF FMFM=FMFF FFMM=FFMF FFFM=FFFF
    | | | | | | | |
    MMM==MMF MFM==MFF FMM==FMF FFM==FFF
    | | | |
    MM=============MF FM=============FF
    | |
    M========================F
    |
    EGO

    Middle Surnames when Ego is Female:
    Code:

    MMMM=MMMF MMFM=MMFF MFMM=MFMF MFFM=MFFF FMMM=FMMF FMFM=FMFF FFMM=FFMF FFFM=FFFF
    | | | | | | | |
    MMM==MMF MFM==MFF FMM==FMF FFM==FFF
    | | | |
    MM=============MF FM=============FF
    | |
    M========================F
    |
    EGO

    As you can see, if the right surnames are straight then the left surnames are zigzag, and if the left surnames are straight the right surnames are zigzag, and if the middle surnames are straight then both the left and the right surnames are zigzag.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In my concultures a man is considered to be directly related only to women and a woman is considered to be directly related only to men. What we'd consider a man's father is considered his sister's father and/or his mother's husband. What we'd consider a man's son is considered his wife's son and/or his daughter's brother. What we'd consider a woman's mother is considered her brother's mother and/or her father's wife. What we'd consider a woman's daughter is considered her husband's daughter and/or her son's sister.
    Topic: Marriage, Descent, Residence, Death, Funerary Customs, etc.
    chiarizio

    Replies: 55
    Views: 83772
    PostForum: World & Culture Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:31 am Subject: Marriage, Descent, Residence, Death, Funerary Customs, etc.
    Xhin wrote:
    Well, I know if his PHD married her EZ, their kid would be BDSM.
    Wink
    The P and the E are not used. B, D, F, H, M, S, W, and Z are used.
    F=Father, M=Mother;
    B= Brother, Z=Sister;
    H=Husband, W=Wife;
    S=Son, D=Daughter.

    According to the articles I remember reading, the types of prescriptive-alliance systems I was thinking of seem only to occur in cultures whose kinship system is "classificatory"* in the following way:

    Any male relative's full brother is "classed with" (called by the same kinship term as) that male relative;
    any female relative's full sister is "classed with" (called by the same kinship term as) that female relative.

    In particular, FB=F (that is, father's brother is called "father") and MZ=M (that is, mother's sister is called "mother").

    *(Actually any kinship system is "classificatory" from the PoV of any different kinship system; that is, each one ignores, maybe isn't even aware of, some differences that the other systematically distinguishes, maybe even regards as crucial.)

    It turns out that one consequence is that older brother, younger brother, full brother, half brother, and step brother, are all just "brother". Likewise, elder sister, younger sister, full-sister, half-sister, step-sister are all just "sister".

    Of course, a man's mother's husband is also the same man's sister's father; that is, MH=ZF. At the same time his daughter's brother is also his wife's son; that is, DB=WS. And, a woman's father's wife is her brother's mother (FW=BM), and her son's sister is her husband's daughter (SZ=HD). So MHD=Z, ZFW=M, WSZ=D, DBM=W, and similarly for female relatives; FWS=B, BMH=F, HDB=S, SZF=H.

    Xhin wrote:
    if his PHD married her EZ
    Nobody's daughter is allowed to marry anyone's sister in this type of system. Confused
    Xhin wrote:
    their kid would be BDSM.

    A BDSM (brother's daughter's son's mother) is just a BD (brother's daughter). Rolling Eyes
    But if there were any such thing as a PHD, it could also be called a PSZ. ("P" would need to be female to have a PH.)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In such prescriptive-alliance systems, each person belongs to a "skin"** which is determined at birth by the "skin" of his/her parents and possibly also by his/her gender. Each "skin" of males has one and only one "skin" of females from whom they can take wives; likewise each "skin" of females has one and only one "skin" of males from whom they can take husbands.

    All the men in any one "skin" of males are classificatory "brothers" of each other.

    All the women in any one "skin" of females are classificatory "sisters" of each other.

    A man's mother, sister, and daughter cannot belong to the "skin" from which he can take a wife.

    A woman's father, brother, and son cannot belong to the "skin" from which she can take a husband.

    If any one person in one skin is kin in a particular way to any particular person in another skin, then everyone in the first skin is (classificatorily) so related to everyone in the second skin. Thus, every man in my father's skin is "my father"; every woman in my mother's skin is "my mother"; every man in my own skin is "my brother"; every woman in my sister's skin is "my sister"; every man in my son's skin is "my son"; and every woman in my daughter's skin is "my daughter".

  • (The term "skin" is a translationism or calque from some Australian language. Prescriptive alliance systems are, or at least were, "big" among Native Australian societies.)

    I can't marry my FBD (my father's brother's daughter) because she's my sister, or at least classed with her. Likewise I can't marry my MZD, for the same reason (my mother's sister is "my mother", so my mother's sister's daughter is "my mother's daughter", and my mother's daughter is "my sister").

    One common type of prescriptive alliance is marriage to the mother's brother's daughter (MBD). If any man is allowed to marry his MBD, then in fact every man is required to marry only a woman in the skin his MBD would be in. That is, W=MBD (wife's skin = mother's brother's daughter's skin). (Of course, H=FZS as well.)

    The other type of first-cousin marriage system is marriage to the FZD (father's sister's daughter). It's not as common, but IIRC and AIUI, several examples are well-known.

    There are also "second-cousin marriage systems" of eight kinds:
    W=FFZDD,
    W=FFZSD,
    W=FMBDD,
    W=FMBSD,
    W=MFZDD,
    W=MFZSD,
    W=MMBDD,
    W=MMBSD.

    First-cousin-marriage systems and second-cousin-marriage systems by no means exhaust the types of prescriptive-alliance systems. But I wanted to avoid them both.

    There are four "circles" (this is my term; there may be a technical term) of skins in any such society; one is "the circulum connubium", a Latin term actually used by ancient Roman writers, and the reason I called all four of these things "circles".
    If ZH=WB -- that is, if a man's wife's brother can marry the man's sister -- then the circulum connubium could consist of just four people, a man and his sister, and his wife and her brother (the sister's husband). Such a situation is called a "direct exchange"; you give me your sister to take to wife, and I give you my sister to be your wife. I wanted to avoid that. There's no way to avoid it if the "skins" are based only on right surnames or patrilines and/or left surnames or matrilines, because a man and his sister always have the same right surname (same patriline) and the same left surname (same matriline). One purpose served, in my conculture, by the "middle surname", is to make sure that brother and sister will have a different surname, and so a man's wife's brother and the man's sister's husband won't be brothers (in the same skin).

    Since there can only be a finite number of skins in any society, if you repeat any relationship often enough it eventually comes back to the starting skin. The question is, how many steps can you take in the same direction before you're back where you started?

    In my unnamed conculture MFMF and DSDS get you back to the original skin; so the period of "the rope" (that is, the order of MF and of its invers DS) is two (2). (MF and DS always have the same order, of course; the same is true of FM and SD).

    In my unnamed conculture ZHZHZH and WBWBWB get you back to the original skin. That means that, as far as the men in my skin are concerned, our wife-donors (our WB skin) are wife-recipients from our own wife-recipients (our ZH skin), and our wife-recipients (our ZH skin) are wife-donors to our own wife-donors (our WB skin). (WB and ZH are inverses of each other, and BW and HZ are inverses of each other, and all four of them have exactly the same order). This always happens whenever the number of guys' skins in a circulum connubium is three (3).

    In my unnamed conculture MBMBMBMBMBMB, ZSZSZSZSZSZS, WFWFWFWFWFWF, and DHDHDHDHDHDH all get you back to the original skin. That is, any matriline contains a cycle of six skins of women. The orders of MB, ZS, WF, and DH, like the orders of BM=FW and HD=SZ, are all equal; in my unnamed conculture they are all equal to six (6).

    In my unnamed conculture ZFZFZFZFZFZF=MHMHMHMHMH and WSWSWSWSWSWS=DBDBDBDBDBDB all get you back to the original skin. That is, any patriline contains a cycle of six skins of men. The orders of ZF=MH and of WS=DB, as well as those of FZ, BD, HM, and SW, are all equal; in my unnamed conculture they are all equal to six (6).

    In Adpihi I wanted all of these orders to be at least five; that is, I wanted any one of these four circles to contain at least five male skins and at least five female skins. And I also didn't want any first-cousin-marriage systems nor any second-cousin-marriage systems; that is, a man should be forbidden not only his M and Z and D, but also his FZ (aunt), his ZD (niece), his FZD and his MBD (cousins german), his FZSD and FZDD and MBSD and MBDD (younger first-cousins-once-removed (first-cousin's children)), his FFZD and FMBD and MFZD and MBDD (older first-cousins-once-removed (parent's first-cousins)), and his second-cousins (eight kinds already listed above).

    One point of the "skin" system, that is, the prescriptive-alliance system, in cultures that have prestations (dowries or bride-prices, for example), is that it keeps property circulating among the skins.

    So it's definitely not all biological.
    The point of Adpihi's "middle-surname" system is to serve its Prescriptive Alliance system by making a person's "skin" consist of his/her and his/her mother's patriline (right surname), his/her and his/her father's matriline (left surname), his/her "rope" (middle surname), and his/her sex. Or, of his/her and his/her mother's patriline (right surname), his/her and his/her father's matriline (left surname), and his/her and (his father's)/(her mother's) "rope" (middle surname).
    Without the middle surname, the prescriptive alliances would be a direct-exchange system; I wanted an indirect-exchange system.

    Page 1 of 1

  • Posted February 3rd by chiarizio

    Multiracial fantasy conworld
    Delete Report Quote
    Sent: Fri 01 Feb 2019, 02:59
    From: eldin raigmore
    Recipient: elemtilas

    No, the cultures aren’t monolithic, because their environments aren’t invariable worldwide.
    The one unrealistic monolithicity I plan to make it easier on myself, is that each of the “races” (species, really) will have just one language for all of its parts all over the globe.
    In every climate-band (ten to 22.5 degrees of latitude, I guess, very roughly) on every continent, where there are caves and mountains and valuable metals or minerals to be mined, will be a Darvish subculture and race (in the non-fantasy sense) and dialect.
    In every climate-band on every continent, where there are woods or forests, there will be an Elvish dialect and (RL biological) race and subculture.
    In every climate-band on every continent, where there are plains or tablelands or grasslands, there will be a Human dialect and (RL biological) race and subculture.
    In every climate on every continent, where there are navigable freshwater streams and bodies of water, there’ll be a MerCentaur dialect and race and subculture.
    In every climate in every ocean, if there are islands with mountains or forests or grasslands/plains or lakes-and/or-rivers, there’ll be a subset of the appropriate species in that ocean, too.

    The full range of skin-colours will be exemplified by each species’s specimens over the whole globe, which I imagine being Earth-sized, and with a distribution of oceans and continents and major islands roughly resembling Earth’s.
    In particular, some Dwarves will be white and some Dwarves will be black.

    To save myself grief, I’m going to make Arpien, the Human language, be the lingua franca for inter-species communication.

    I imagine that the Humans will connect everyone by overland transportation, and the MerCentaurs will connect everyone by (fresh) water transportation. Of course, if someone or something needs to go over a mountain range, or tunnel thru one, instead of going around it, help from Dwarves would be nice; and similarly if they need to go through a woods or forest, instead of around it, help from Elves would be nice.

    Inter-species prejudice and/or bigotry will override any bigotry that might be due to skin-colour etc.

    Furthermore there may be perceived to be more justification for interspecies bigotry in my conworld than IRL. There will be true, and truly significant, biological differences. Miscegenation will actually be an objectively bad idea. *(Ask me why if you want to know and can’t guess.)
    And it won’t be obvious to everyone that slavery is bad in the long term, nor that the longterm costs will necessarily outweigh the shortterm benefits.

    I expect both the Men and the Elves will have traditions of tattooing themselves; but very different ideas about how and why to do it.

    I expect the Dwarves will go to work in the deserts to mine for petroleum, and the Men will truck them into their well sites and back to their homes, and truck in their supplies and truck out their oil.

    I wanted about half, say 64/125, of each species to be free of bigotry, so practically everybody would know several bigots, but it would probably be possible to assemble a bigot-free crew if one were required.

    ———

    I’ll put more about this on gtx0 eventually. It’s almost 3AM and I may have to wake up as early as 5. (But probably 6:30).

    Anyway, I don’t think the bigotries in my conworld will just be the RL bigotries dressed up in LotR-D&D drag.


    Last edited by eldin raigmore on Fri 01 Feb 2019, 03:01, edited 1 time in total.

    Posted February 4th by chiarizio


    I was rereading the Subterranean Sight thread and it has inspired me to decide that one of the reasons all adult dwarves —— not just males —— have facial hair, is to aid in echolocation.
    It should also serve as vibrissae.
    Perhaps pre-pubescent dwarves should also have vibrissae, though I suppose they won’t be much until they’re old enough to learn to walk, or to be weaned, or some such age.
    Maybe they should start coming in about the time the youngster starts cutting teeth; be at least minimally useful around the rugrat age; be useful beginning about the walking age; and well-established around the time the youngster masters toilet-training, or at least before “early childhood amnesia” starts (around 4y/o for RL humans).

    Posted February 13th by chiarizio


    I would welcome further comment.
    It appears to be an unfortunate mistake now, but, earlier, I thought I was going to lose access to most of the CWBB posts and PMs about this topic.
    So I searched for those that we’re probably relevant, and copied them to this thread en masse.
    That did include a few spurious hits that happened to have the search-strings, but weren’t about this topic after all.

    So, at least two questions.
    1) Should I just start all over with this world?
    2) Now that we’re on a board with at least one or two other members interested in group theory, should I start a thread in the “science...” subforum about prescriptive marriage systems and classificatory Kinship Systems, and put the system in my first or second post here, in that thread?


    Posted February 26th by chiarizio

    I think you might get new/interesting answers if you asked about this in science as a new thread.

    Posted February 26th by linguistcat

    Thanks, @linguistcat: !

    Posted February 26th by chiarizio

    I’m thinking of naming plains people’s patriclans after animal-species found in the plains, grasslands, savannahs, etc.
    And naming woods people’s patriclans after animal species found in the woods and forests.

    I’ll probably name the elves’ matriclans after tree species important in the woods, or something.
    Maybe I’ll name the men’s matriclans after important not-necessarily-living inanimate(?) object-types found in the plains or prairies or what-have-you.

    For both men and elves, I think I should name the circula connubia after the four seasons.
    (These are the sibling-and-spouse circles or helixes that sort-of-roughly correspond to generations.)

    I’m thinking of naming the dwarves’ matriclans after types of gemstones.
    I don’t know what I’d name their patriclans after. If there are at least ten kinds of gemstone, maybe the patriclans can also be named after them.
    Or maybe the patriclans would be named after rare earths.
    And I’m not sure I’d want to name their generational groups after the seasons of the year; maybe dwarves wouldn’t name them at all.

    The mer-centaurs would have to have a completely different system.

    Even though all four species would be globally dispersed, and have inhabitants in every climate on every continent, and so have different skin-colors etc., I’m going to assume each of the three humanoid species has just one world-wide language and one world-wide system of five patriclans and five matriclans and four generational sibling-and-spouse “circles”. The mer-centaurs’ cultures also will, I expect, be rather uniform the world over, except where the environment would constrain that.

    Posted March 17th by chiarizio

    If Elves are mostly matrilocal, then, since one might tell from an Elf’s tattoos and clothes the kind of flora s/he lives among, one might also be able to guess his/her matriclan, indirectly, from those same adornments.



    I think this is very likely! Apart from simple camouflage, might there also be "advertising" tattoos? That is, tattoos that advertise clan membership or other association?

    Posted March 25th by elemtilas

    @elemtilas:
    I think this is very likely! Apart from simple camouflage, might there also be "advertising" tattoos? That is, tattoos that advertise clan membership or other association?


    I imagine an elf’s tattoos would serve both functions.
    If you were close to them and/or they moved about, it would serve the advertising function.
    If they hid, stayed still and quiet, and you didn’t get too close, they’d serve the camouflage function.

    The plainsmen’s tattoos are also both.
    The type of camouflage they are is “zebrage” or “razzle-dazzle” or “dazzle camouflage”.
    They make no attempt to pretend not to be there, nor to pretend to be something else, nor to be in a different direction.
    But they make it difficult to count them, and to know how far away they are, how big they are, which way they’re moving, which way they’re facing, and how fast they’re moving.
    They make very clear which patriclans they belong to, even from a distance; or, at least, the males do.
    At least from up close, it’s also easy enough to tell what patriclans the females are from, and what matriclans either sex are from.
    At least that’s what I understand so far.

    Good luck getting that close, though! Or, if you do, getting away again!


    Posted March 26th by chiarizio

    I just found out Hylobates is derived etymologically from Greek roots meaning “forest walker”.
    So should my Elves be descended from gibbons?
    Then maybe the Dwarves should be descended from chimps, since they are cave-dwellersgoers, i.e. troglodytes.
    I wonder if there’s some kind of long-legged far-walking plains-dwelling ape my Men should descend from?
    Oh! Homo sapiens, of course!
    [edit]Actually I’m pretty sure Homo erectus would do.[/edit]

    Thing is, I’m not sure I want any of the species to be only in the same superfamily (Hominoidea), instead of the same family (Hominidae).
    Gibbons are hominoids, as are anyone else in superfamily Hominoidea. They are apes, but not great apes.
    Orangutans (men of the Forest) are in family Hominidae. They are great apes, aka hominids.
    Gorillas are in subfamily Homininae. (They are hominines.). The word Gorilla comes from a Carthaginian/Greek term meaning “tribe of hairy women”. Maybe my Dwarves should be relatives of Chimpanzees and Bonobos who are more Gorilla-like than chimps. But clearly the similarity won’t be in size.
    Chimpanzees are in tribe Hominini. (They are hominins.)
    All humans are in subtribe Hominina. That subtribe includes the genus Homo. I’m confused about whether it includes any other genera; in particular I’m confused about whether Australopithecus are homininans, or hominins, or if there’s some other taxon between tribe and subtribe that they’re in with us, but that doesn’t include chimps.
    Members of the subtribe Hominina are called homininans.

    Is it reasonable to expect cross-breeding if they’re not in the same genus? I think maybe if they’re in the same taxonomic tribe, cross-breeding might be a possibility. I could be wrong, of course.

    Edited March 31st by chiarizio

    Is it reasonable to expect cross-breeding if they’re not in the same genus? I think maybe if they’re in the same taxonomic tribe, cross-breeding might be a possibility. I could be wrong, of course.




    Given that humans will already mate with about anything, and given that "Neanderthal genes" are a thing among surviving humans, I think it would be fair to say that cross breeding among your four peoples will be a likelihood.

    Whether any offspring come of it can only be determined by the nature of the world itself: how "close" the various peoples are. If magic plays a part, then perhaps genus level differences can be overcome. If hard science is more important, then perhaps no offspring will be possible at all. Or perhaps offspring can only be produced between certain pairings but not others. Such a situation could, at least perhaps, lead to a certain amount of folklore about such things.

    Posted March 29th by elemtilas

    I want science —— RListic science at that —— to be more important for three of these four “races” (i.e. the humanoid ones) than it is in most magical fantasy worlds.
    That’s not necessarily to say that magic won’t be more important.

    All of the non-Homo sapiens sapiens genes carried by modern H. sap sap are from other subspecies of our species; Neanderthal, Denisovan, Red Deer Cave, etc.
    Other genus Homo species might have been direct ancestors of all of them. I don’t know how anyone would go about interpreting, much less claiming evidence for, any assertion that some modern people carry genes from non-sapiens Homo.
    There has been a rumor that there was an individual born from the mating of a human and a chimp. He had no offspring, and presumably would have been sterile, because he had 47 chromosomes (humans have 46, chimps and most other great apes have 48). I don’t know how much credence anyone should give to this rumor.
    Anyway maybe Dwarves come from Homo floresensis (sp?).

    Pretty sure Mer-Centaur reproduction has to involve magic.

    If Elves are from gibbons, a much weaker dose of that same magic could enable the fertile mating of Elves with the Men or Dwarves.
    And a yet weaker dose could enable fertile mating of Men with Dwarves.



    Edited March 29th by chiarizio

    All of the non-Homo sapiens sapiens genes carried by modern H. sap sap are from other subspecies of our species; Neanderthal, Denisovan, Red Deer Cave, etc.



    Exactly. This, of course, goes to the idea that any of your peoples will likely engage in inter-people sex.

    The science will dictate whether inter-people relations can yield fertile, infertile or unviable offspring. We know that inter-ethnic relations result in mestizos. From genetic studies, we know that inter-(sub)-species relations also yielded some kind super-mestizo that, with the absence of full blood Others have simply been "bred out" over the millennia.

    As of yet, I don't think any Homo + X hybrids have been born, although there is the interestingly dubious case from early 20th century Russia where it's claimed a Humanzee was indeed born and lived. If such an offspring is possible, then there may well be rare examples of Dwarf-Elf mestizos. You'd have to sort out under what natural a/o unnatural conditions such a person could come to be. I'm assuming you're not looking for Aliens to come to this planet with some kind of extremely advanced genetic technology where they can easily splice together such hybrids.

    Socially, I think you're on much firmer ground. I see no reason why a Dwarf-Elf couple might, under certain circumstances, come to love one another and subsequently choose to go the romantic / domestic arrangement route. Even if children will never come of such a union.

    Other genus Homo species might have been direct ancestors of all of them. I don’t know how anyone would go about interpreting, much less claiming evidence for, any assertion that some modern people carry genes from non-sapiens Homo.



    I suspect the only way to find that out would be to do as they must have done for the Neanderthal DNA: compare with known DNA sequences from other non-Homo groups.

    Possibly, very far back in time, when Homo and other non-Homo groups were still quite close genetically speaking, it may have been possible for individuals of proto-Human and proto-Chimp or proto-Gorilla to have gotten it together with happy results.

    Jump forwards hundreds of thousands of years and we'd have no way of knowing that ever happened if we never find the evidence for the event. Can only speculate one way or the other.

    There has been a rumor that there was an individual born from the mating of a human and a chimp. He had no offspring, and presumably would have been sterile, because he had 47 chromosomes (humans have 46, chimps and most other great apes have 48). I don’t know how much credence anyone should give to this rumor.



    Soviet Union. 1920s. Dubious experimentation.

    We're unlikely to know the truth of the matter a hundred years on. Unless the body is produced along with the documentation.

    There are more recent stories (from the US) of similar experiments. Again: credible evidence is lacking.


    Pretty sure Mer-Centaur reproduction has to involve magic.


    Or at least a large pool.

    If Elves are from gibbons, a much weaker dose of that same magic could enable the fertile mating of Elves with the Men or Dwarves. And a yet weaker dose could enable fertile mating of Men with Dwarves.


    Quite possible!



    Posted March 29th by elemtilas

    @chiarizio

    Good luck getting that close, though! Or, if you do, getting away again!


    They sound quite dangerous!!







    Posted March 31st by elemtilas

    All four of the races are dangerous in their own territory while defending it. The trick is convincing them you’re not a threat. It’s easier if they’re expecting you.

    Posted April 2nd by chiarizio

    BTW I just realized my multiracial fantasy world has three humanoid species that will have one of these five-sided ring systems so since I mentioned threetwo possibilities earlier in thisanother thread, I could have each system followed by at least one race.
    So I’ve decided to do that.
    I have a feeling the MH=ZF=(2354) and the MH=ZF=(2453) systems might be isomorphic, essentially identical except for re-labeling. But in case they’re different, I’ll have them both anyway.
    The MH=ZF=(2435) system is different; it has MF=DS, while they have MFM=DSD.
    I have discovered I made a mistake. The ZF=(2435) system doesn’t generate a group with 20 classes per sex. Instead it generates the entire 120-member symmetric group of all permutations on five “letters”.

    Ill probably give the Woods Elves the “different” system, and give the other system to the Plains Men and the Mountain Dwarves.

    I’m thinking the Dwarves and the Men are genetically closer to each other than either race is to the Elves.

    But perhaps the Elves are culturally closer to each of the Men and the Dwarves than they are to each other.

    One evidence of this might be that Men and Elves both use tattoos, but Dwarves don’t.
    Another might be that Men and Elves both name their sibling-and-spouse circles after the seasons, while Dwarves don’t name theirs at all.

    I think that once they start mining for petroleum, cultural contact between Men and Dwarves will pick up considerably.

    In the meantime, ocean-going shipping will be the biggest four-race endeavour.

    Edited Yesterday Morning by chiarizio

    I have discovered that I had been making an error.
    The kinship class system and marriage prescription system I had just been considering for the Elves, doesn’t have just 20 classes or sections or “skins” per sex. Instead it has 120 per sex.
    With i=5 and j=k=4 the group’s size would have to be some divisor of five-factorial (that is, of 120), that was also a common multiple of i and j and k.
    The smallest of those is 20.
    That group’s size must also be a multiple of l. With l being 2 or 4 or 5, 20 would still have been a possibility; but with l=3, the group would have to have at least 60 members.
    In fact it is the entire group of all 120 permutations of a set of five things.
    If x is (2435) and y is (12345), and <x> is the group of powers of x and <y> is the group of powers if y, I found <x><y> and <y><x> each have 20 elements; and taken together their union has 30.
    <x><y><x> and <y><x><y> united, have 73 distinct elements, including all of {(12), (13), (14), (15)}, which is known to be enough to generate all the permutations of the set {1, 2, 3, 4, 5}.
    There must be some members of <x><y><x><y> and/or <y><x><y><x> which I have not yet generated.
    The odds seem high that the 47 (that is, 120 less 73) permutations I haven’t yet generated are all in one or another — probably both — of those two sets.

    —————

    I don’t want the Elves to have that complicated a classificatory-kinship-and-prescriptive-marriage system.
    I’ll probably use ZF=(2354) for both Humans and Dwarves and use ZF=(2453) for Elves.

    —————

    The Ichthyocentaurs might have as many as six parents apiece. They may have as many as 8 totally-outcrossing mating classes.
    Maybe each individual’s fish part might be male or female;
    and independently their human part may be male or female;
    and independently their horse part may be male or female.

    I’m thinking that a female-fish-part mercentaur will lay some almost-microscopic roe, which will be fertilised by microscopic milt from a male-fish-part mercentaur.
    The resulting part-zygote will develop into an extremely small larval fish, or fish-larva-like-thing, which will swim into a female-human-part mercentaur’s human birth canal, where it will join with a human-ovum-like thing not bigger than the dot over an i or a j, or one of the dots in this colon:. The larva should be small enough that the mercentaur having the human-vagina might not notice it swimming in. Perhaps it might be tadpole-size.
    But once it’s there a mercentaur having masculine human parts will internally fertilise it with something resembling a human spermatozoon—microscopic, of course.
    It will be gestated for a while and will grow into an embryo perhaps the size of the egg of a chicken or duck or goose.
    When its human-part mother delivers it they’ll know it. It will take a noticeable amount of labor, but no pain nor danger.
    The embryo will still have gills at this point. It won’t have a shell. It will be a rather biggish “fingerling”.
    The embryo will then be put into the mare’s-womb part of a mercentaur with a female horse part.
    It will then be internally fertilised a second time, by a mercentaur with a masculine horse part.
    It will be gestated a second time, until it is a mature foetus about the size of a foal, when it will be delivered. This final delivery is sure to at least tire, if not exhaust, the mother, but it might not — or might — involve pain or danger to the mother.
    It will, however, involve danger to the infant; unless the birth is attended by a midwife or equivalent. An arrangement such as real-life cetaceans use might be common.

    The thing is; I don’t see how they can consciously exercise control over whose milt fertilises whose roe; nor over whose larvae or fry enter whose human-vagina.
    So I don’t know how they can guarantee the first two parents aren’t closely related to each other or to any of the other parents.
    They may at least be able to make sure the last four parents do not have any of their own last four parents in common.
    But I think that’d be about it.

    So I’m not sure they’d have anything resembling marriage.

    They might instead have something like compadrazgo and/or fostering.

    They may have a system for determining which pools or volumes of water to go to to spawn (lay roe or spray milt), based on where the memorable events in their own generation, and/or their known parents’ generation, took place.

    That would have to suffice as a substitute for preventing the kind of inbreeding that, among humans, is proscribed by incest-taboos.

    [@]EN,elemtilas,linguistcat:[/@]


    Edited Thursday by chiarizio

    BTW:
    Men and Dwarves are biogenetically more similar to each other than either are to the Elves;
    but they are culturally more dissimilar to each other than either are to the Elves.

    One way Elves and Dwarves are like each other but unlike Men;
    Elvish and Dwarvish females are matrilocal, and Elvish and Dwarvish males are uxorilocal.
    But Human males are patrilocal, and Human females are virilocal.



    Posted Thursday by chiarizio
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