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So-far-unnamed Fantasy Multi-Racial Conworld
Posted: Posted December 26th, 2018 by chiarizio
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An Earthlike world inhabited by several realistic(?) species or sub-species or genera, all(?) belonging to the same taxonomic family.

It has Humans just like us for Plains People in its grasslands and savannahs and prairies and steppes.
It has Dwarves for Mine People in its mountain ranges and caves.
It has Elves for its Forest People in its forests and woods.

—————

The reason for the parenthesized question-marks above is;
I also think I might want a Lakes-and-Rivers People; and I think I might want them to be Mer-Centaurs.

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I am going to make the three humanoid species —— Dwarves, Elves, and Humans —— have classificatory Kinship Systems and prescriptive marriage Systems.
I don’t know whether the MerCentaurs will even have anything even resembling marriage; and I can’t get a handle, so far, on their Kinship System.

So far I’ve developed the Kinship and marriage systems for the Plains and Grasslands people best.
Each sex will be divided into twenty sections or classes.
Each person will belong to one and only one patriclan; namely, the one their father belongs or belonged to.
Each person will belong to one and only one matriiclan; namely, the one their mother belongs or belonged to.
Each person will also belong to one and only one sibling-in-law “circle”, determined at birth.

There are five patriclans, and five matriclans, and four sibling-in-law circles.

Every patriclan will contain four sections of each sex.
Each man in each patriclan is in the same section his father’s father’s father’s father (FFFF) is/was in.
Each man’s son is in the same section the man’s FFF is/was in.
Each man’s SS (son’s son) is or will be in the same section the man’s FF is/was in.
Each man’s SSS will be in the same section the man’s father was in.

No one can marry a member of their own patriclan.
A man also can’t marry a woman from his mother’s patriclan; nor his father’s mother’s patriclan; nor his FFM’s matriclan.
Instead, a man must marry a woman from his FFFM’s patriclan.
The men in any patriclan will take turns, by generation, rotating through marrying wives from the other four patriclans.

Likewise, each matriclan will contain four sections of each sex; defined by generation.
The women in each matriclan will rotate thru, by generation, a cycle of which of the other four matriclans to find husbands from.
A woman can’t marry a man from her own matriclan; nor from her father’s matriclan; nor from her MF’s matriclan; nor from her MMF’s matriclan.
Instead she must marry a man from her MMMF’s matriclan.

A man, his wife’s brother (WB), his sister’s husband (ZH), his WBWB, and his ZHZH, must be from five different patriclans.
But his WBWBWB will be from the same section as his ZHZH, and his ZHZHZH will be from the same section as his WBWB.
In other words, his WBWBW and his ZHZHZ will be classificatory “sisters” to each other. They could be actual sisters; or, even, the same woman.

Similarly, a woman’s brother’s wife (BW), husband’s sister HZ, BWBW, and HZHZ, must all be from different matriclans.
But her BWBWB and her HZHZH might be the same guy; or might be each other’s brothers. They definitely must be from the same section, equivalently they must be each other’s classificatory “brothers”.

—————

All three humanoid species will have such a five-patriclan five-matriclan four-sibling-in-law-circle prescriptive marriage system, and such a twenty-class-per-sex classificatory Kinship Systems.

I think the three humanoid races might put different emphases and uses on patriclans vs matriclans from each other.
Or even, different subcultures within each “race” may use them differently.

Plains People (“Humans”) will include many multi-generational nomadic families, including caravan families.
All the men in each band or caravan will belong to the same patriclan.
People will wear tattoos and clothes to tell which patriclan and which matriclan they are from.
This will apply more to patriclans than to matriclans, and more to men than to women.
A woman will leave her father’s and brothers’ band and join her husband’s band when she marries. She’s likely to switch to wearing clothing appropriate to her husband’s patriclan. That way anyone who sights the band from a distance can tell which patriclan the men in that band belong to.
But from inside the band’s camp, someone would be able to tell, from looking at any of them, which matriclan that person was born into; and to tell by sight which patriclan any of their women were born into.

—————

Dwarves are likely to view caves and valleys and mines as feminine, but to view spelunking and mining as masculine activities.
Dwarves won’t tattoo themselves.
I dont know whether dwarves will regard matriclans as more important than patriclans, or vice versa, or will regard both as equally important.
I think, though, their women might be matrilocal, and their men might be uxorilocal.

—————

While Elves will in fact tattoo themselves, it will be for camouflage.
If Elves are mostly matrilocal, then, since one might tell from an Elf’s tattoos and clothes the kind of flora s/he lives among, one might also be able to guess his/her matriclan, indirectly, from those same adornments.

I haven’t worked out such questions for Elves any more than for Dwarves.





Edited February 3rd by chiarizio
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Multiracial fantasy conworld
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Sent: Fri 01 Feb 2019, 02:59
From: eldin raigmore
Recipient: elemtilas

No, the cultures aren’t monolithic, because their environments aren’t invariable worldwide.
The one unrealistic monolithicity I plan to make it easier on myself, is that each of the “races” (species, really) will have just one language for all of its parts all over the globe.
In every climate-band (ten to 22.5 degrees of latitude, I guess, very roughly) on every continent, where there are caves and mountains and valuable metals or minerals to be mined, will be a Darvish subculture and race (in the non-fantasy sense) and dialect.
In every climate-band on every continent, where there are woods or forests, there will be an Elvish dialect and (RL biological) race and subculture.
In every climate-band on every continent, where there are plains or tablelands or grasslands, there will be a Human dialect and (RL biological) race and subculture.
In every climate on every continent, where there are navigable freshwater streams and bodies of water, there’ll be a MerCentaur dialect and race and subculture.
In every climate in every ocean, if there are islands with mountains or forests or grasslands/plains or lakes-and/or-rivers, there’ll be a subset of the appropriate species in that ocean, too.

The full range of skin-colours will be exemplified by each species’s specimens over the whole globe, which I imagine being Earth-sized, and with a distribution of oceans and continents and major islands roughly resembling Earth’s.
In particular, some Dwarves will be white and some Dwarves will be black.

To save myself grief, I’m going to make Arpien, the Human language, be the lingua franca for inter-species communication.

I imagine that the Humans will connect everyone by overland transportation, and the MerCentaurs will connect everyone by (fresh) water transportation. Of course, if someone or something needs to go over a mountain range, or tunnel thru one, instead of going around it, help from Dwarves would be nice; and similarly if they need to go through a woods or forest, instead of around it, help from Elves would be nice.

Inter-species prejudice and/or bigotry will override any bigotry that might be due to skin-colour etc.

Furthermore there may be perceived to be more justification for interspecies bigotry in my conworld than IRL. There will be true, and truly significant, biological differences. Miscegenation will actually be an objectively bad idea. *(Ask me why if you want to know and can’t guess.)
And it won’t be obvious to everyone that slavery is bad in the long term, nor that the longterm costs will necessarily outweigh the shortterm benefits.

I expect both the Men and the Elves will have traditions of tattooing themselves; but very different ideas about how and why to do it.

I expect the Dwarves will go to work in the deserts to mine for petroleum, and the Men will truck them into their well sites and back to their homes, and truck in their supplies and truck out their oil.

I wanted about half, say 64/125, of each species to be free of bigotry, so practically everybody would know several bigots, but it would probably be possible to assemble a bigot-free crew if one were required.

———

I’ll put more about this on gtx0 eventually. It’s almost 3AM and I may have to wake up as early as 5. (But probably 6:30).

Anyway, I don’t think the bigotries in my conworld will just be the RL bigotries dressed up in LotR-D&D drag.


Last edited by eldin raigmore on Fri 01 Feb 2019, 03:01, edited 1 time in total.

Posted February 4th by chiarizio
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I was rereading the Subterranean Sight thread and it has inspired me to decide that one of the reasons all adult dwarves —— not just males —— have facial hair, is to aid in echolocation.
It should also serve as vibrissae.
Perhaps pre-pubescent dwarves should also have vibrissae, though I suppose they won’t be much until they’re old enough to learn to walk, or to be weaned, or some such age.
Maybe they should start coming in about the time the youngster starts cutting teeth; be at least minimally useful around the rugrat age; be useful beginning about the walking age; and well-established around the time the youngster masters toilet-training, or at least before “early childhood amnesia” starts (around 4y/o for RL humans).

Posted February 13th by chiarizio
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I would welcome further comment.
It appears to be an unfortunate mistake now, but, earlier, I thought I was going to lose access to most of the CWBB posts and PMs about this topic.
So I searched for those that we’re probably relevant, and copied them to this thread en masse.
That did include a few spurious hits that happened to have the search-strings, but weren’t about this topic after all.

So, at least two questions.
1) Should I just start all over with this world?
2) Now that we’re on a board with at least one or two other members interested in group theory, should I start a thread in the “science...” subforum about prescriptive marriage systems and classificatory Kinship Systems, and put the system in my first or second post here, in that thread?


Posted February 26th by chiarizio
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I think you might get new/interesting answers if you asked about this in science as a new thread.

Posted February 26th by linguistcat
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Thanks, @linguistcat: !

Posted February 26th by chiarizio
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I’m thinking of naming plains people’s patriclans after animal-species found in the plains, grasslands, savannahs, etc.
And naming woods people’s patriclans after animal species found in the woods and forests.

I’ll probably name the elves’ matriclans after tree species important in the woods, or something.
Maybe I’ll name the men’s matriclans after important not-necessarily-living inanimate(?) object-types found in the plains or prairies or what-have-you.

For both men and elves, I think I should name the circula connubia after the four seasons.
(These are the sibling-and-spouse circles or helixes that sort-of-roughly correspond to generations.)

I’m thinking of naming the dwarves’ matriclans after types of gemstones.
I don’t know what I’d name their patriclans after. If there are at least ten kinds of gemstone, maybe the patriclans can also be named after them.
Or maybe the patriclans would be named after rare earths.
And I’m not sure I’d want to name their generational groups after the seasons of the year; maybe dwarves wouldn’t name them at all.

The mer-centaurs would have to have a completely different system.

Even though all four species would be globally dispersed, and have inhabitants in every climate on every continent, and so have different skin-colors etc., I’m going to assume each of the three humanoid species has just one world-wide language and one world-wide system of five patriclans and five matriclans and four generational sibling-and-spouse “circles”. The mer-centaurs’ cultures also will, I expect, be rather uniform the world over, except where the environment would constrain that.

Posted March 17th by chiarizio
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If Elves are mostly matrilocal, then, since one might tell from an Elf’s tattoos and clothes the kind of flora s/he lives among, one might also be able to guess his/her matriclan, indirectly, from those same adornments.



I think this is very likely! Apart from simple camouflage, might there also be "advertising" tattoos? That is, tattoos that advertise clan membership or other association?

Posted March 26th by elemtilas
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@elemtilas:
I think this is very likely! Apart from simple camouflage, might there also be "advertising" tattoos? That is, tattoos that advertise clan membership or other association?


I imagine an elf’s tattoos would serve both functions.
If you were close to them and/or they moved about, it would serve the advertising function.
If they hid, stayed still and quiet, and you didn’t get too close, they’d serve the camouflage function.

The plainsmen’s tattoos are also both.
The type of camouflage they are is “zebrage” or “razzle-dazzle” or “dazzle camouflage”.
They make no attempt to pretend not to be there, nor to pretend to be something else, nor to be in a different direction.
But they make it difficult to count them, and to know how far away they are, how big they are, which way they’re moving, which way they’re facing, and how fast they’re moving.
They make very clear which patriclans they belong to, even from a distance; or, at least, the males do.
At least from up close, it’s also easy enough to tell what patriclans the females are from, and what matriclans either sex are from.
At least that’s what I understand so far.

Good luck getting that close, though! Or, if you do, getting away again!


Posted March 26th by chiarizio
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I just found out Hylobates is derived etymologically from Greek roots meaning “forest walker”.
So should my Elves be descended from gibbons?
Then maybe the Dwarves should be descended from chimps, since they are cave-dwellersgoers, i.e. troglodytes.
I wonder if there’s some kind of long-legged far-walking plains-dwelling ape my Men should descend from?
Oh! Homo sapiens, of course!
[edit]Actually I’m pretty sure Homo erectus would do.[/edit]

Thing is, I’m not sure I want any of the species to be only in the same superfamily (Hominoidea), instead of the same family (Hominidae).
Gibbons are hominoids, as are anyone else in superfamily Hominoidea. They are apes, but not great apes.
Orangutans (men of the Forest) are in family Hominidae. They are great apes, aka hominids.
Gorillas are in subfamily Homininae. (They are hominines.). The word Gorilla comes from a Carthaginian/Greek term meaning “tribe of hairy women”. Maybe my Dwarves should be relatives of Chimpanzees and Bonobos who are more Gorilla-like than chimps. But clearly the similarity won’t be in size.
Chimpanzees are in tribe Hominini. (They are hominins.)
All humans are in subtribe Hominina. That subtribe includes the genus Homo. I’m confused about whether it includes any other genera; in particular I’m confused about whether Australopithecus are homininans, or hominins, or if there’s some other taxon between tribe and subtribe that they’re in with us, but that doesn’t include chimps.
Members of the subtribe Hominina are called homininans.

Is it reasonable to expect cross-breeding if they’re not in the same genus? I think maybe if they’re in the same taxonomic tribe, cross-breeding might be a possibility. I could be wrong, of course.

Edited March 31st by chiarizio
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Is it reasonable to expect cross-breeding if they’re not in the same genus? I think maybe if they’re in the same taxonomic tribe, cross-breeding might be a possibility. I could be wrong, of course.




Given that humans will already mate with about anything, and given that "Neanderthal genes" are a thing among surviving humans, I think it would be fair to say that cross breeding among your four peoples will be a likelihood.

Whether any offspring come of it can only be determined by the nature of the world itself: how "close" the various peoples are. If magic plays a part, then perhaps genus level differences can be overcome. If hard science is more important, then perhaps no offspring will be possible at all. Or perhaps offspring can only be produced between certain pairings but not others. Such a situation could, at least perhaps, lead to a certain amount of folklore about such things.

Posted March 29th by elemtilas
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I want science —— RListic science at that —— to be more important for three of these four “races” (i.e. the humanoid ones) than it is in most magical fantasy worlds.
That’s not necessarily to say that magic won’t be more important.

All of the non-Homo sapiens sapiens genes carried by modern H. sap sap are from other subspecies of our species; Neanderthal, Denisovan, Red Deer Cave, etc.
Other genus Homo species might have been direct ancestors of all of them. I don’t know how anyone would go about interpreting, much less claiming evidence for, any assertion that some modern people carry genes from non-sapiens Homo.
There has been a rumor that there was an individual born from the mating of a human and a chimp. He had no offspring, and presumably would have been sterile, because he had 47 chromosomes (humans have 46, chimps and most other great apes have 48). I don’t know how much credence anyone should give to this rumor.
Anyway maybe Dwarves come from Homo floresensis (sp?).

Pretty sure Mer-Centaur reproduction has to involve magic.

If Elves are from gibbons, a much weaker dose of that same magic could enable the fertile mating of Elves with the Men or Dwarves.
And a yet weaker dose could enable fertile mating of Men with Dwarves.



Edited March 29th by chiarizio
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All of the non-Homo sapiens sapiens genes carried by modern H. sap sap are from other subspecies of our species; Neanderthal, Denisovan, Red Deer Cave, etc.



Exactly. This, of course, goes to the idea that any of your peoples will likely engage in inter-people sex.

The science will dictate whether inter-people relations can yield fertile, infertile or unviable offspring. We know that inter-ethnic relations result in mestizos. From genetic studies, we know that inter-(sub)-species relations also yielded some kind super-mestizo that, with the absence of full blood Others have simply been "bred out" over the millennia.

As of yet, I don't think any Homo + X hybrids have been born, although there is the interestingly dubious case from early 20th century Russia where it's claimed a Humanzee was indeed born and lived. If such an offspring is possible, then there may well be rare examples of Dwarf-Elf mestizos. You'd have to sort out under what natural a/o unnatural conditions such a person could come to be. I'm assuming you're not looking for Aliens to come to this planet with some kind of extremely advanced genetic technology where they can easily splice together such hybrids.

Socially, I think you're on much firmer ground. I see no reason why a Dwarf-Elf couple might, under certain circumstances, come to love one another and subsequently choose to go the romantic / domestic arrangement route. Even if children will never come of such a union.

Other genus Homo species might have been direct ancestors of all of them. I don’t know how anyone would go about interpreting, much less claiming evidence for, any assertion that some modern people carry genes from non-sapiens Homo.



I suspect the only way to find that out would be to do as they must have done for the Neanderthal DNA: compare with known DNA sequences from other non-Homo groups.

Possibly, very far back in time, when Homo and other non-Homo groups were still quite close genetically speaking, it may have been possible for individuals of proto-Human and proto-Chimp or proto-Gorilla to have gotten it together with happy results.

Jump forwards hundreds of thousands of years and we'd have no way of knowing that ever happened if we never find the evidence for the event. Can only speculate one way or the other.

There has been a rumor that there was an individual born from the mating of a human and a chimp. He had no offspring, and presumably would have been sterile, because he had 47 chromosomes (humans have 46, chimps and most other great apes have 48). I don’t know how much credence anyone should give to this rumor.



Soviet Union. 1920s. Dubious experimentation.

We're unlikely to know the truth of the matter a hundred years on. Unless the body is produced along with the documentation.

There are more recent stories (from the US) of similar experiments. Again: credible evidence is lacking.


Pretty sure Mer-Centaur reproduction has to involve magic.


Or at least a large pool.

If Elves are from gibbons, a much weaker dose of that same magic could enable the fertile mating of Elves with the Men or Dwarves. And a yet weaker dose could enable fertile mating of Men with Dwarves.


Quite possible!



Posted March 29th by elemtilas
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@chiarizio

Good luck getting that close, though! Or, if you do, getting away again!


They sound quite dangerous!!







Posted April 1st by elemtilas
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All four of the races are dangerous in their own territory while defending it. The trick is convincing them you’re not a threat. It’s easier if they’re expecting you.

Posted April 3rd by chiarizio
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BTW I just realized my multiracial fantasy world has three humanoid species that will have one of these five-sided ring systems so since I mentioned threetwo possibilities earlier in thisanother thread, I could have each system followed by at least one race.
So I’ve decided to do that.
I have a feeling the MH=ZF=(2354) and the MH=ZF=(2453) systems might be isomorphic, essentially identical except for re-labeling. But in case they’re different, I’ll have them both anyway.
The MH=ZF=(2435) system is different; it has MFM=DSD, while they have MF=DS.
I have discovered I made a mistake. The ZF=(2435) system doesn’t generate a group with 20 classes per sex. Instead it generates the entire 120-member symmetric group of all permutations on five “letters”.

Ill probably give the Woods Elves the “different” system, and give the other system to the Plains Men and the Mountain Dwarves.

I’m thinking the Dwarves and the Men are genetically closer to each other than either race is to the Elves.

But perhaps the Elves are culturally closer to each of the Men and the Dwarves than they are to each other.

One evidence of this might be that Men and Elves both use tattoos, but Dwarves don’t.
Another might be that Men and Elves both name their sibling-and-spouse circles after the seasons, while Dwarves don’t name theirs at all.

I think that once they start mining for petroleum, cultural contact between Men and Dwarves will pick up considerably.

In the meantime, ocean-going shipping will be the biggest four-race endeavour.

Edited April 21st by chiarizio
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I have discovered that I had been making an error.
The kinship class system and marriage prescription system I had just been considering for the Elves, doesn’t have just 20 classes or sections or “skins” per sex. Instead it has 120 per sex.
With i=5 and j=k=4 the group’s size would have to be some divisor of five-factorial (that is, of 120), that was also a common multiple of i and j and k.
The smallest of those is 20.
That group’s size must also be a multiple of l. With l being 2 or 4 or 5, 20 would still have been a possibility; but with l=3 or 6, the group would have to have at least 60 members.
In fact it is the entire group of all 120 permutations of a set of five things.
If x is (2435) and y is (12345), and <x> is the group of powers of x and <y> is the group of powers if y, I found <x><y> and <y><x> each have 20 elements; and taken together their union has 30.
<x><y><x> and <y><x><y> united, have 73 distinct elements, including all of {(12), (13), (14), (15)}, which is known to be enough to generate all the permutations of the set {1, 2, 3, 4, 5}. So do {(12), (23), (34), (45)} and {(12), (123), (1234), (12345)}, btw. And {(15), (25), (35), (45)}; and {(12345), (2345), (345), (45)}.
There must be some members of <x><y><x><y> and/or <y><x><y><x> which I have not yet generated.
The odds seem high that the 47 (that is, 120 less 73) permutations I haven’t yet generated are all in one or another — probably both — of those two sets.

—————

I don’t want the Elves to have that complicated a classificatory-kinship-and-prescriptive-marriage system.
I’ll probably use ZF=(2354) for both Humans and Dwarves and use ZF=(2453) for Elves.

—————

The Ichthyocentaurs might have as many as six parents apiece. They may have as many as 8 totally-outcrossing mating classes.
Maybe each individual’s fish part might be male or female;
and independently their human part may be male or female;
and independently their horse part may be male or female.

I’m thinking that a female-fish-part mercentaur will lay some almost-microscopic roe, which will be fertilised by microscopic milt from a male-fish-part mercentaur.
The resulting part-zygote will develop into an extremely small larval fish, or fish-larva-like-thing, which will swim into a female-human-part mercentaur’s human birth canal, where it will join with a human-ovum-like thing not bigger than the dot over an i or a j, or one of the dots in this colon:. The larva should be small enough that the mercentaur having the human-vagina might not notice it swimming in. Perhaps it might be tadpole-size.
But once it’s there a mercentaur having masculine human parts will internally fertilise it with something resembling a human spermatozoon—microscopic, of course.
It will be gestated for a while and will grow into an embryo perhaps the size of the egg of a chicken or duck or goose.
When its human-part mother delivers it they’ll know it. It will take a noticeable amount of labor, but no pain nor danger.
The embryo will still have gills at this point. It won’t have a shell. It will be a rather biggish “fingerling”.
The embryo will then be put into the mare’s-womb part of a mercentaur with a female horse part.
It will then be internally fertilised a second time, by a mercentaur with a masculine horse part.
It will be gestated a second time, until it is a mature foetus about the size of a foal, when it will be delivered. This final delivery is sure to at least tire, if not exhaust, the mother, but it might not — or might — involve pain or danger to the mother.
It will, however, involve danger to the infant; unless the birth is attended by a midwife or equivalent. An arrangement such as real-life cetaceans use might be common.

The thing is; I don’t see how they can consciously exercise control over whose milt fertilises whose roe; nor over whose larvae or fry enter whose human-vagina.
So I don’t know how they can guarantee the first two parents aren’t closely related to each other or to any of the other parents.
They may at least be able to make sure the last four parents do not have any of their own last four parents in common.
But I think that’d be about it.

So I’m not sure they’d have anything resembling marriage.

They might instead have something like compadrazgo and/or fostering.

They may have a system for determining which pools or volumes of water to go to to spawn (lay roe or spray milt), based on where the memorable events in their own generation, and/or their known parents’ generation, took place.

That would have to suffice as a substitute for preventing the kind of inbreeding that, among humans, is proscribed by incest-taboos.

[@]EN,elemtilas,linguistcat:[/@]


Edited April 21st by chiarizio
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BTW:
Men and Dwarves are biogenetically more similar to each other than either are to the Elves;
but they are culturally more dissimilar to each other than either are to the Elves.

One way Elves and Dwarves are like each other but unlike Men;
Elvish and Dwarvish females are matrilocal, and Elvish and Dwarvish males are uxorilocal.
But Human males are patrilocal, and Human females are virilocal.



Posted April 18th by chiarizio
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The Name of the World
I won’t really call it “Msfunmrfcw”, in spite of @Xhin:’s permission to do so.
I may call it “the Arpien world”.
Or I may just call it the Arpien word for “world”, once I figure out what that is.

Each of the four species has their own species-specific species-wide world-wide interlingua or lingua franca or auxlang.
They may or may not also have continental and/or oceanic languages, and/or regional or areal dialects.
But to save myself effort, or avoid expending too much of my limited store of creativity, I plan to proceed as if any conversation between two or more conspecifics, is in their species’s international auxlang.

The Humans’ interlang is going to be my yet-to-be-completed conlang Arpien.
There’ll be good reasons the inter-specific lingua franca will probably be either that of the Humans or that of the MerCentaurs; before the tech takes off, most long-distance travel and transport will pass through the hands of one or the other or both of those two races.
I think I’ll say “the MerCentaur interlang is too hard for the humanoid species to pronounce correctly, compared to Arpien, so they agreed on Arpien as the interlang to use between people of different species”.

The other three species will also each have their interlang. I have yet to begin conlanging those, though.

At a certain point there’ll be a lot of Dwarvish vocabulary borrowed into the other languages. They’ll be the smiths; they’ll be the miners of precious and useful metals and stones; they’ll be the engineers. So a lot of words in those semantic fields will get borrowed from Dwarvish , or whatever I end up calling their species’s interlang.
They’ll also be the abolitionists, so a lot of political and legal vocabulary will get borrowed into the other languages, too.

Seafaring terminology will definitely have a Mercentaurish flavor; but all the races will invent it at once, so it won’t precisely be “borrowed” from Mercentaurish into them. It’ll probably sound like Mercentaurish except avoiding the phonemes or whatever that make their words hard to pronounce for the other languages. It’ll sound as if the other languages borrowed Mercentaurish words and then “naturalized” them by making them conform to the borrowing languages’ native rules of phonology etc. But actually they’ll be native to every species’s interlang; they’ll just be “colored” as if they had Mercentaurish ancestor-words.

Does any of that sound like a plan?
in my opinion it’s a bit undercooked to qualify as a “plan” yet; but I think it’s worth writing down here.

Edited April 24th by chiarizio
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I’m thinking the Dwarvish and Elvish languages ought to have lots of tonemes and chronemes atypical of RL human natlangs But attested among RL nonhuman primates’ communicative vocalizations. That will be a departure for me, conlangingwise.


Posted April 24th by chiarizio
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I think the Dwarves’ matriclans will be:
Diamond
Ruby
Emerald
Sapphire
Topaz.

I think the Dwarves’ patriclans will be
Cerium
Neodymium
Lanthanum
Yttrium
Scandium



Edited April 24th by chiarizio
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I think the Elves’ patriclans will be
Coast redwood (Sequoia sempervirens)
Yellow meranti (Shorea faguetiana)
Mountain ash (Eucalyptus regnans)
Coast Douglas-fir (Pseudotsuga menziesii var. menziesii)
Sitka spruce (Picea sitchensis)

I think the Elves’ matriclans might be
indigo
turmeric
woad
madder
black walnut


Posted April 24th by chiarizio
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I reckon the Humans’ patriclans could be
Bison
Pronghorn
Giraffe
Zebra
Rhinoceros.

I may not have enough battery power left to figure out what their matriclans might be.

Maybe something like
Desert
Pampas
Plain
Plateau
Prairie

Or some such?


Edited April 24th by chiarizio
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Whatd’ya suppose their music would be like?
Most difficult imagining for mercentaurs.
Imagine Dwarves and Elves might both have a lot of percussion?
Rock music for Dwarves, of course. (Thanks, Sir Pterry! Or apologies; whichever are appropriate.)
Elves should have a lot of woodwinds, and a lot of bowed stringed instruments.
Humans should definitely make a lot of use of horns, though probably in small numbers.
Dwarves would probably pioneer the use of brass instruments.


Posted April 24th by chiarizio
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Of those six sets of clan-names, I’m most confident about the ones I proposed first, and least confident about the ones I proposed last. any help anyone can offer?

Posted April 25th by chiarizio
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I am still very unsure about the Matriclan names for the Men (Humans).
I sincerely would appreciate help!



Posted May 17th by chiarizio
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In the classificatory-Kinship-Systems and Prescriptive-marriage-Systems of
the three hominoid races in Ms-Fun-Mr-Fcw,
Every woman is in the same marriageability-section as her MMMM;
And she’s in the same marriageability-section as her FFFFZ;
And she’s in the same marriageability-section as her FMFM.

At the same time, every man is in the same marriageability-section as his MMMMB;
And he’s in the same marriageability-section as his FFFF;
And he’s in the same marriageability-section as his MFMF.

Therefore, if a woman W and a man H can marry,
Then any one of these three of W’s ancestresses: WMMMM, WFFFFZ, WFMFM:
Could have married any one of these three of H’s ancestors: HMMMMB, HFFFF, HMFMF.
(WFFFFZ is a collateral ancestress of W, not a direct ancestress.)
(Similarly HMMMMB is a collateral ancestor of H, not a direct ancestor.)
(If a collateral ancestress of W married a collateral ancestor of H, we should not expect that to imply any blood relation between W and H).

If WMMMM had married HMMMMB, then WMMMF and HMMMM would be brother and sister;
In other words H=MMMFZDDDS and W=MMMMBDDDD.
So there is a prescribed 4th-cousin relationship between W and H.

If WFFFFZ had married HFFFF, then WFFFF and HFFFM would be brother and sister;
In other words H=FFFFZSSSS and W=FFFMBSSSD.
So there is also another prescribed 4th-cousin relationship between W and H.

If WFMFM had married HMFMF, then WFMF and HMFM would be brother and sister;
In other words H=FMFZSDS and W=MFMBDSD.
So there is a prescribed 3rd-cousin relationship between W and H.

If WMMMM had married HFFFF, then WMMM and HFFF would be brother and sister;
In other words H=MMMBSSS and W=FFFZDDD.
So there is another 3rd-cousin relationship prescribed between W and H.

If WFFFFZ had married HMMMMB, we would have
H=FFFFZHZDDDS and W=MMMMBWBSSSD.
This is not a “blood” relationship; it’s instead a kind of affine relationship, perhaps a type of “4th-cousin-in-law”.
So it might not strictly be part of the technical definition of “Prescriptive Marriage system”.
I don’t know that an outsider unfamiliar with their system might even notice it.
Indeed the younger or less thoughtful members of their own race might be unaware of it, unless it were pointed out to them and they took some time to think about it.

If WMMMM married HMFMF, then WMMM and HMFM would be sisters, or could even be the same woman.
Either way, WMM and HMF would be (classificatory or “actual”) sister and brother.
In other words, H=MMBDS and W=MFZDD.
So there is this prescribed 2nd-cousin relationship between W and H.

If WFMFM married HMMMMB, then WFMFF and HMMMM would be brother and sister;
In other words H=FMFFZDDDS and W=MMMMBSDSD.
So here is yet another prescribed 4th-cousin relationship between W and H.

If WFFFFZ married HMFMF, then WFFFF and HMFMM would be brother and sister;
In other words H=FFFFZDSDS and W=MFMMBSSSD.
So here is yet another prescribed 4th-cousin relationship between W and H.

If WFMFM married HFFFF, then WFMF and HFFF would be either brothers, or the same guy.
Either way WFM and HFF would at least be classified as sister and brother.
In other words, H=FMBSS and W=FFZSD.
This is a final prescribed 2nd-cousin relationship between W and H.

=============================================

Tl;dr or summary:

There are 2 prescribed 2nd-cousin relationships,
2 prescribed 3rd-cousin relationships, and
4 prescribed 4th-cousin relationships between W and H; as well as
one prescribed “4th-cousin-in-law” relationship.

Prescribed 2nd-cousin relationships;
H=MMBDS and W=MFZDD
H=FMBSS and W=FFZSD

prescribed 3rd-cousin relationships;
H=FMFZSDS and W=MFMBDSD
H=MMMBSSS and W=FFFZDDD

Prescribed 4th-cousin relationships;
H=MMMFZDDDS and W=MMMMBDDDD
H=FFFFZSSSS and W=FFFMBSSSD
H=FMFFZDDDS and W=MMMMBSDSD
H=FFFFZDSDS and W=MFMMBSSSD

Prescribed “4th-cousin-in-law” relationship
(might not technically be part of the strict definition of “prescriptive” marriage system,
since it’s not a “blood” relationship);
H=FFFFZHZDDDS and W=MMMMBWBSSSD

=============================================

There are also (at least one in each system, maybe more) doubly- or multiply-affine relationships between a parent of W and a parent of H,
which must exist for W and H to be marriageable to each other.
Whether these are easier or harder to trace than the 2nd and 3rd and 4th -cousin relationships discussed above, might depend on whether it’s easier to go back two to four generations but only trace blood relationships, or to trace relationships which are doubly (triply?) affine but go back only one generation.
Anyway, since they’re probably not the same for the Elvish system as for the system employed by Dwarves and Men, I won’t cover them in this post.
(I think I did cover one of them in another post somewhere; but I hadn’t made up my mind then which system to use in which race.)


Edited May 19th by chiarizio
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Posted May 18th by chiarizio
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I just want to say I'm really sorry for taking up all of newest replies.

Posted May 18th by I killed Mufasa
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I killed Mufasa
long live the king

In the Dwarvish and Mannish Systems,
A woman marries her FZHZS and a man marries his MBWBD.
So her FZ is his MBW and her FZH is his MB.
By US English terminology, they’d share an uncle and an aunt.

In the Elvish system,
A woman marries her MBWBS and a man marries his FZHZD.
So her MB is his FZH and her MBW is his FZ.
By US English terminology, they’d share an uncle and an aunt.

=======================================

Maybe the couple who are the shared uncle and aunt, play at matchmaking between his ZS nephews and her BD nieces (Dwarves and Men), or his ZD nieces and her BS nephews (Elves).



Edited May 19th by chiarizio
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Among Men and Dwarves, a woman’s FZHZ is her HM; that is, her father’s sister’s husband’s sister is her husband’s mother.
And a man’s MBWB is his WF; i.e. his mother’s brother’s wife’s brother is his wife’s father.
So a female speaker’s term for father’s side uncle-by-marriage’s sister is “mother-in-law”;
and a male speaker’s term for mother’s side aunt-by-marriage’s brother is “father-in-law”.

Among Elves, a woman’s MBWB is her HF, and a man’s FZHZ is his WM.

Posted May 20th by chiarizio
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The Ichthyocentaurs might have as many as six parents apiece. They may have as many as 8 totally-outcrossing mating classes.



The whole scheme is entirely bonkers!!! By which I, of course!, mean that it's quite brilliant!

The embryo will still have gills at this point. It won’t have a shell. It will be a rather biggish “fingerling”.

The embryo will then be put into the mare’s-womb part of a mercentaur with a female horse part.


I'm with you up to this part.

Unless I'm misreading / misunderstanding the process, I think the idea of "putting" the fingerling into the womb smacks too much of rational will in action. While I gather this is a sophont species, I wonder how this would have played out before they became intelligent / aware / rational beings?

I should think that a fingerling sized baby could just as easily swim or perhaps crawl into a pseudo-marsuppial pouch on its own.


The thing is; I don’t see how they can consciously exercise control over whose milt fertilises whose roe; nor over whose larvae or fry enter whose human-vagina.



Any external fertilisation undoubtedly can not be controlled. That's more dependent on currents. Internal fertilisation ought to be at least reasonably well knowable!


So I don’t know how they can guarantee the first two parents aren’t closely related to each other or to any of the other parents.



Perhaps that's not a problem?


They may at least be able to make sure the last four parents do not have any of their own last four parents in common.

But I think that’d be about it.



Makes sense.

They may have a system for determining which pools or volumes of water to go to to spawn (lay roe or spray milt), based on where the memorable events in their own generation, and/or their known parents’ generation, took place.



Possible.


That would have to suffice as a substitute for preventing the kind of inbreeding that, among humans, is proscribed by incest-taboos.



Kind of like salmon going up into a particular river?

Posted June 1st by elemtilas
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Whatd’ya suppose their music would be like?

Most difficult imagining for mercentaurs.


Maybe they won't have subaquatic music at all. Perhaps their great art will be dance?

But check out what cán be done given sufficient technology: https://www.betweenmusic.dk/aquasonic


For the rest, I would personally shy away from a 1:1 relationship (Elves = woodwinds; Dwarves = percussion) as being unlikely. Most cultures have a wide variety of musical instruments available to them. While it's true they may use certain instruments for certain kinds of music only, I don't think it would be realistic to say "Africans only play drums" kind of thing.

Posted June 1st by elemtilas
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https://www.betweenmusic.dk/aquasonic
Weird!
Also:
Amazing breath control!

Posted June 2nd by chiarizio
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Unless I'm misreading / misunderstanding the process, I think the idea of "putting" the fingerling into the womb smacks too much of rational will in action. While I gather this is a sophont species, I wonder how this would have played out before they became intelligent / aware / rational beings?


I should think that a fingerling sized baby could just as easily swim or perhaps crawl into a pseudo-marsuppial pouch on its own.


I think when a fingerling enters a mare’s vagina she will certainly be aware of it and may exercise a good deal of choice about it. And that would have been true even of pre-cultural and pre-sapient MerCentaurs.
However it’s possible “she” will have less than complete control and choice.

—————

If the woman-part parent from whom the fingerling emerges also has a mare-part, would she be likely to receive it into her mare-vagina?
Or would they find that distasteful?

What if the woman-part parent who gave birth to the fingerling, had a stallion-part? Would “he” want to fertilize the fingerling once it was implanted in someone’s mare-vagina? Or would one party or the other be disgusted by that idea?

If a mercentaur had both a woman-part and a mare-part, how likely would “she” be to conceive with her mare-part while “her” woman-part was already pregnant? Or vice-versa?

A MerCentaur can have up to six parents. But one could have as few as two parents. Their human-parents could be their fish-parents, and their horse-parents could be their human-parents. Would they take steps to prevent some of that? —— I’m thinking they would not like the human-father to be also either of the horse-parents. Perhaps also they won’t like the mare-mother to be either of the human-parents. Would they be less strict about the human-mother being also the horse-father? What are the pros and cons of any of those three ideas?

I think they also would take steps to improve the chances that the fish-parents are not closely related to any of the human-parents or the horse-parents. But I haven’t thought of a sure-fire system for that.

Perhaps that's not a problem?


Maybe not.
If they make sure that the human and equine mothers and fathers are four different individuals; and biology ensures the two piscine parents are distinct from each other; then the most inbred they could be would be, each of two parents could contribute one-third of the genes, while each of two other parents contribute one-sixth of the genes.
That’s probably acceptable.

I still think they’d probably like to improve the chance of more-diverse parentage. But they probably wouldn’t insist on guaranteed perfect diversity.


Edited June 2nd by chiarizio
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I think I should name the Men’s matriclans after bird species found in grasslands and on plains.
I haven’t decided yet which species, nor even how to pick them.
Probably not just the five biggest!


Posted June 14th by chiarizio
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How about the following for the Men’s matriclans in msfunmrfcw?
Bee-eater
Kestrel
Meadowlark
Peafowl
Secretary-bird
?

Posted June 14th by chiarizio
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@elemtilas:
I think I like the idea of the mare having a marsupium for the MerCentaurs.
And, yes, in that case I think the fingerling ought probably be able to swim into the marsupium without help.

But the fingerling will need to merge with the mare’s ovum, and then be fertilized by the stallion’s spermatozoon. Wouldn’t that mean it has to get through the mare’s vagina into her womb?

The mare may be able to exercise choice over whether or not to accept the fingerling into her vagina.
And then to exercise choice over whether and which stallion to allow to complete the fertilization.

If she has a marsupium, giving birth might not be quite as painful or dangerous or exhausting.
OTOH how does the offspring get air to breathe once it has its lungs and no longer has its gills?
While it’s in the marsupium, won’t it be under water much of the time?




Edited June 14th by chiarizio
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The Name of the World

... I may just call it the Arpien word for “world”, once I figure out what that is.

Ataivsh.


Edited June 16th by chiarizio
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I have started a new thread about Ataivsh (my multiracial fantasy conworld).
It’s at http://gtx0.com/read/ataivsh-msfunmrfcw-thread-2.


Posted June 16th by chiarizio
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OTOH how does the offspring get air to breathe once it has its lungs and no longer has its gills?

While it’s in the marsupium, won’t it be under water much of the time?



I would imagine that a youngling would not need to breathe air until its fully formed and born. While it's in the marsupium, its gills would still be functional, or else it might attach in some way to its parent (a quasi-umbilicus).

Once finally born and free swimming on its own, perhaps it would exist as a partial-air/water breather. As it grows over the next couple months or so, the gills atrophy, the lungs become more robust and the little fellow simply learns to rely more and more on surface breathing.

Would that arrangement work at all?


Edited June 17th by elemtilas
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I think when a fingerling enters a mare’s vagina she will certainly be aware of it and may exercise a good deal of choice about it. And that would have been true even of pre-cultural and pre-sapient MerCentaurs.

However it’s possible “she” will have less than complete control and choice.


I concur. Awareness coupled with some level of "control" might be the way to go. "Control" being the operative word. I would posit that, perhaps, in times of social stress (starving times, war, illness, etc.) there may be non-rational controls that reject a fingerling. I would posit that she probably will not have full rational control over her own body's processes. "Control" in the sense of introducing technological means of killing or removing a fingerling is a different matter and probably more appropriate in a thread about culture, morality and social networks.

Q: can the rejected fingerling find another mare? What happens if it can't find a suitable parent within a few days? Does it mature into a kind of "monster" or does it die or what?

—————

If the woman-part parent from whom the fingerling emerges also has a mare-part, would she be likely to receive it into her mare-vagina?

Or would they find that distasteful?



I'd hazard that biology would find some way of overcoming the yuck factor.

I recall reading in child psychology that as children grow up, they find the other sex "yucky" (ewww!! boys! YUUUUCCCCKKK!) as a kind of defense mechanism against engaging in sex too soon. This generally disappears around puberty when all of a sudden boys and girls can't seem to get away from each other. By this time, the sex hormones have overcome the yuck factor.


I think a similar mechanism might come into play when fingerlings go a-migrating. Perhaps they themselves emit a pheromone that interacts with females who then emit a return pheromone. The strongest chemical bond wins, maybe?


What if the woman-part parent who gave birth to the fingerling, had a stallion-part? Would “he” want to fertilize the fingerling once it was implanted in someone’s mare-vagina? Or would one party or the other be disgusted by that idea?



Hm. Is that a normal situation? That is, is it common for there to be an "upper female" and "lower male" joined?

I think the answer would be contingent upon who's got the upper hand as far as hormones and pheromones go. The lower stallion part might trump the upper woman part and she-he'd go after another person with either two female parts or an "upper male" / "lower mare" combination.


If a mercentaur had both a woman-part and a mare-part, how likely would “she” be to conceive with her mare-part while “her” woman-part was already pregnant? Or vice-versa?



If the "upper female" half has reproductive organs as well as the "lower female" half, then I'd suggest that only one can be pregnant at any given time, under typical circumstances. Because of progesterone. There is that slight window where, perhaps, both halves could be receptive at the same time.


A MerCentaur can have up to six parents. But one could have as few as two parents. Their human-parents could be their fish-parents, and their horse-parents could be their human-parents. Would they take steps to prevent some of that? —— I’m thinking they would not like the human-father to be also either of the horse-parents. Perhaps also they won’t like the mare-mother to be either of the human-parents. Would they be less strict about the human-mother being also the horse-father? What are the pros and cons of any of those three ideas?



I'd always look back in their evolutionary history to help. Since, biologically, their parentage can be considerably varied, it's clear that there does not appear to be any particular biological veto to any of those scenarios.

That leaves the cultural situation. You might consider some MerCentaur cultures that are more or less strict about such things. They may be terribly big on genealogical charts and family trees and breeding webs and if a potential suitor's parentage isn't up to snuff, well, that suitor might be rejected. Other cultures might be much less concerned about such things. Even within clans, there may be differing levels of strictness.




Posted June 17th by elemtilas
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I would imagine that a youngling would not need to breathe air until its fully formed and born. While it's in the marsupium, its gills would still be functional, or else it might attach in some way to its parent (a quasi-umbilicus).

Once finally born and free swimming on its own, perhaps it would exist as a partial-air/water breather. As it grows over the next couple months or so, the gills atrophy, the lungs become more robust and the little fellow simply learns to rely more and more on surface breathing.

Would that arrangement work at all?

I can imagine that it could work! Thanks for the ideas!

I concur. Awareness coupled with some level of "control" might be the way to go. "Control" being the operative word. I would posit that, perhaps, in times of social stress (starving times, war, illness, etc.) there may be non-rational controls that reject a fingerling. I would posit that she probably will not have full rational control over her own body's processes. "Control" in the sense of introducing technological means of killing or removing a fingerling is a different matter and probably more appropriate in a thread about culture, morality and social networks.

Q: can the rejected fingerling find another mare? What happens if it can't find a suitable parent within a few days? Does it mature into a kind of "monster" or does it die or what?

If it did mature, I’d think it’d become a merrow or merperson, with no centaurishness to it.
I’d imagine, though, that it would die. I think they’ll mostly still be altricial at this stage.
Remember that there’s a plague or natural disaster or war or famine going on; otherwise it wouldn’t have gotten rejected.
Even if a preemie could take care of itself in the best of times, it probably couldn’t in stressful times.

I'd hazard that biology would find some way of overcoming the yuck factor.

Well, among humans, it appears we are naturally unattracted and unattractive to those we grew up in the same house with. But if there’s nobody else, we can make adequate couples with such childhood companions.
However, as soon as anyone a little more exotic comes along, they’re WAY more attractive than the girl/boy next door and the cousin!
Unless they’re TOO exotic; then it’s hard to see them as the same species.
Eastern Mediterranean ancient royalty had a number of brother-sister marriages.
If “functional” means these couples produced offspring, then, they were functional couples.
If “functional” means they had middling-happy home lives, then these marriages were quite dysfunctional!
It’s clear they could make and carry out an intellectual decision to mate with a close relative.
It’s also clear this took mental effort and was usually only partially successful.

I recall reading in child psychology that as children grow up, they find the other sex "yucky" (ewww!! boys! YUUUUCCCCKKK!) as a kind of defense mechanism against engaging in sex too soon. This generally disappears around puberty when all of a sudden boys and girls can't seem to get away from each other. By this time, the sex hormones have overcome the yuck factor.

I think a similar mechanism might come into play when fingerlings go a-migrating. Perhaps they themselves emit a pheromone that interacts with females who then emit a return pheromone. The strongest chemical bond wins, maybe?

Seems plausible; maybe even probable! Thanks for the idea!

Hm. Is that a normal situation? That is, is it common for there to be an "upper female" and "lower male" joined?

Why not?
A man can ride a mare.
A man can ride a stallion.
A woman can ride a mare.
A woman can ride a stallion, though that’s a very bad idea if and when she’s menstruating. (No problem riding a gelding, though.)

All eight combinations of male/female human, male/female horse, and male/female fish, exist.
I am toying with various mechanisms for determining the sex of the fish part.
One possibility is age. Maybe they’re protogynous; young adults are female but older adults are male. Or maybe they’re protandrous; adults start male, but become female by middle age.
But I’m also thinking of them developing as male or female depending on their environments; if nearly all the MerCentaurs nearby during their incubation are one sex, the fish-part-larvae will develop as the opposite fish-part sex.
I suppose I could change my mind about any of that at any time!

I think the answer would be contingent upon who's got the upper hand as far as hormones and pheromones go. The lower stallion part might trump the upper woman part and she-he'd go after another person with either two female parts or an "upper male" / "lower mare" combination.

I don’t think I want that. OTOH if it turns out to make better sense maybe I’ll do it that way.
I think only the woman/stallion combination should be different; and not because that combination is more or less common than others, nor has more or less difficulty reproducing, but maybe because they’d have periodic behavioral differences.

If the "upper female" half has reproductive organs as well as the "lower female" half, then I'd suggest that only one can be pregnant at any given time, under typical circumstances. Because of progesterone. There is that slight window where, perhaps, both halves could be receptive at the same time.

I’ll take that into consideration.

I'd always look back in their evolutionary history to help. Since, biologically, their parentage can be considerably varied, it's clear that there does not appear to be any particular biological veto to any of those scenarios.

Another pertinent comment I’ll have to think about!

That leaves the cultural situation. You might consider some MerCentaur cultures that are more or less strict about such things. They may be terribly big on genealogical charts and family trees and breeding webs and if a potential suitor's parentage isn't up to snuff, well, that suitor might be rejected. Other cultures might be much less concerned about such things. Even within clans, there may be differing levels of strictness.

I guess that’s right.

Somewhat analogously:
Your half-brother or half-sister, your uncle or aunt, your niece or nephew, or your double-cousin, all share an average of about one quarter of your variable genes with you.
Some human cultures prohibit any such pair from marrying or mating.
But for each of them, some human culture actually prefers mates of that type.
However I do not believe any human culture allows both of any two of those types of close-relatives mating.

—————

I think MerCentaurs, or at least some of them, will indeed keep careful track of who their and their mates’ human-mother and human-father and horse-mother and horse-father are. And of what space or volume of water their human-mother was in when she took in the larva that became them. And of who was laying eggs or spraying milt in that space at around the right time to possibly have been their fish-mother or fish-father.
But for the most part a random pair of neighboring MerCentaurs are unlikely to have more than about 1/3 of their variable genes in common; which is only a little worse than the 1/4 we discussed for humans above.
If you can make sure every baby mercentaur’s human-mother and human-father and mare-dam and stallion-sire were four different people; and no two of them shared the same human-mother or human-father or mare-dam or stallion-sire; then that might be as much as you CAN do, and also as much as you NEED to do, to avoid a teratogenic overdose of duplicated recessive genes.

I’m thinking that MerCentaur parents will want godmothers and god-sistersgodfathers for their offspring.
What are the odds that the godparent might also be one of the other part-parents?
What are the odds that another offspring will have the same four parents, or three of the same parents, or two of the same parents?

I had proposed earlier that the MerCentaurs might have fostering and compadrazgo, but not marriage.
Is that still a viable idea?


Edited June 20th by chiarizio
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Let’s say the human-mother remembers who her fingerling’s human-father is, and doesn’t want “him” to be her fingerling’s mare-dam.
Let’s say “she” also doesn’t want to be her fingerling’s own mare-dam.
So those three MerCentaurs arrange that the fingerling’s human-mother and human-father and mare-dam will be three different MerCentaurs.

Now suppose the mare-dam remembers who her foals human-mother is, and doesn’t want “him?her” to be her foal’s stallion-sire (horse-father).
Naturally “she” can’t be her foal’s own horse-father.
So the human-mother and the mare-dam and the stallion-sire arrange between them that the foal’s human-mother and mare-dam and stallion-sire are three different MerCentaurs.

But will the mare-dam know who her foal’s human-father is? And if so, will she not want him to be her foal’s stallion-sire?

—————

I’m going to need better pronouns.

I’ll use:
him/him/him for man/stallion/malefish
him/him/her for man/stallion/femalefish
him/her/him for man/mare/malefish
him/her/her for man/mare/femalefish
her/him/him for woman/stallion/malefish
her/him/her for woman/stallion/femalefish
her/her/him for woman/mare/malefish
her/her/her for woman/mare/femalefish


Posted June 19th by chiarizio
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I’m thinking that MerCentaur parents will want godmothers and godsisters for their offspring.

What are the odds that the godparent might also be one of the other part-parents?


Maths aren't my thing, but I'd posit that oceanographically near godparents might be more likely than oceanographically distant gosparents to have had a direct role in infant production.


What are the odds that another offspring will have the same four parents, or three of the same parents, or two of the same parents?


I'd hazard the (un)educated guess that the likelihood would be low.


Caveats: I am uncertain as to the natures of the various parents. Are all the parents (centaur, human, fish) sophont types? Or are the fish, just fish?

If everybody is intelligent, self and other aware, cultured beings then I'd suppose that they would keep track of who's been shagging whom --- at least as well as your average multiple-sex-partner human female can. Mom(s) may have a good idea who the dad(s) were; some may know with certainty. Given that situation, I'd say it is at least possible for the same group of four to get together for a reprise!

I had proposed earlier that the MerCentaurs might have fostering and compadrazgo, but not marriage.

Is that still a viable idea?


I don't see why not. Those are cultural systems. Perhaps some cultures have marriage while others don't?




Posted June 19th by elemtilas
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Caveats: I am uncertain as to the natures of the various parents. Are all the parents (centaur, human, fish) sophont types? Or are the fish, just fish? If everybody is intelligent, self and other aware, cultured beings then I'd suppose that they would keep track of who's been shagging whom --- at least as well as your average multiple-sex-partner human female can. Mom(s) may have a good idea who the dad(s) were; some may know with certainty.


The entire chimera is an individual with a single consciousness and a single identity.
The fish larva is just a fish.
The merrow fingerling is about as bright as a newborn human. But it has neither the strength nor the digestive capacities of the three-way chimera.
Each three-way chimera has three suites of reproductive organs; piscine and human and equine.

I’m at a restaurant trying to do this on my phone.
I should go home and use my iPad.

Edited June 20th by chiarizio
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Maths aren't my thing, but I'd posit that oceanographically near godparents might be more likely than oceanographically distant godparents to have had a direct role in infant production.

That makes sense; and that’s my guess too.
I think maybe at least one sex of newly-adult MerCentaurs would like to migrate in some random direction some far-ish distance from “home”.
Maybe almost all of them will head out in sibling-pairs. Or some will head out alone.
It’s harder to think it out when three out of four of them are “mixed-sex” by our lights.
Even if we ignore the piscine sex and concentrate on the “mammalian” sexes, still, half of them will be “mixed-sex”.

Maybe something like this?
F/F/F will usually stay near home;
F/F/M, F/M/F, and M/F/F, will usually head out medium-far away with a sibling;
F/M/M, M/F/M, and M/M/F, will usually head pretty far away, but with a sibling;
M/M/M will usually head far away, usually by themselves.

Or something.

Will they sometimes mate with their compadres or commadres?
Or will they sometimes choose mates to ask to be godparents of their children?
Maybe they’ll often choose siblings or part-siblings to be compadres or commadres?

I imagine their childhood friends will often be their foster-siblings and/or god-sibs (gossips)?


Edited June 20th by chiarizio
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( @elemtilas: I forgot to “alert” you on the previous post.)

The MerCentaurs are a fresh-water species, at least originally.
But just as RL humans live practically everywhere there’s land, and also many watery places from which land can be reached,
maybe the MerCentaurs have subcultures who inhabit estuaries and similar somewhat-saltwater environments sort of near freshwater.


Posted June 20th by chiarizio
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The MerCentaurs are a fresh-water species, at least originally.

But just as RL humans live practically everywhere there’s land, and also many watery places from which land can be reached,

maybe the MerCentaurs have subcultures who inhabit estuaries and similar somewhat-saltwater environments sort of near freshwater.


Makes sense. I suppose their fish counterparts would be adapted to the brackish water, too.



Posted June 21st by elemtilas
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The entire chimera is an individual with a single consciousness and a single identity.

The fish larva is just a fish.

The merrow fingerling is about as bright as a newborn human. But it has neither the strength nor the digestive capacities of the three-way chimera.

Each three-way chimera has three suites of reproductive organs; piscine and human and equine.


Thanks for the explanation. I figured the entire chimera would constitute a single sophont being.

Can you remind me what all the possible combinations are?

I figure anything with a human / Merfolk / Centaur head end would obviously be a sophont because of the brain. But what about fish head ~ centaur rear? Or horse head ~ fish tail? Or fish head ~ human legs?

Are those kinds of -- creatures? -- possible permutations? I can't imagine a fish or horse headed offspring would be a sophont, because fish brain / horse brain. Or, if those are possible, am I just all wet?



Posted June 21st by elemtilas
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I have started a new thread,
http://gtx0.com/read/ataivsh-msfunmrfcw-thread-2,
about this world.
Please post future replies or responses there.
I have also named it Ataivsh.


Posted June 30th by chiarizio
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