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Danpyr kinterms
Posted: Posted February 25th, 2017 by bloodb4roses
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Sperm-father/A-sex parent: neni
Egg-father/B-sex parent: dedo
Mother/C-sex parent: veva
sibling, no sex specified: mara (pl. marasa)
A-sex sibling: maren (marenna)
B-sex sibling: maredo (maredda)
C-sex sibling: mariv (marivva)

I should come up with aunt/uncle equivalents and cousins. I'm thinking terms for a/u equivalents and cousins through one's veva would be different terms as the ones through one's neni or dedo, which might be equivalent.

There are 10 Replies

Don't forget nibling (sibling's child) equivalents (niece-equivalent, nephew-equivalent).*
Those, like aunt/uncle equivalents, would come before 1st-cousin kinterms.
(IMHO, at least!)

* And oh yeah! Terms for offspring would also be good! "Son" and "daughter" might be closer to primary than "niece" and "nephew".

_______________________________________________________________

Will you want terms for 3/4-sibling, 1/2-sibling, and 1/4-sibling, different from each other and/or from terms for full-siblings?

Or maybe full-sibling and 3/4-sibling are the same term, and 1/2-sibling and 1/4-sibling are the same term different from those for full-sibling?

If so;
Will you want to be able to distinguish between 3/4-siblings who have the same A- and C-parents but different B-parents, from the 3/4-siblings who have the same B- and C-parents but different A-parents?

Will you want to be able to distinguish between 1/2-siblings who have the same A- and B-parents but different C-parents, from the 1/2-siblings who have the same C-parent but different A- and B-parents?

Will you want to be able to distinguish between 1/4-siblings who have the same A-parent but different B- and C-parents, from the 1/4-siblings who have the same B-parent but different A- and C-parents?

Posted February 26th, 2017 by chiarizio
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You've given us the pronouns for singular 3rd-persons of each sex.

Terms for Persons:
IMO we'll need nouns for
  • an A-person
  • a B-person
  • a C-person
  • a person regardless of sex
  • a person who can pass on nuclear genes, viz. an A-person or a C-person
  • a person who can pass on organellic/cytoplasmic genes, viz. a B-person or a C-person
    It would ordinarily violate Gricean maxims to speak of a single person with any of those last three nouns, rather than one of the more specific first three nouns, unless the person's sex was unknown, or not completely known, or irrelevant, or just unspecified by the speaker for some other reason that didn't violate a Gricean maxim.
    However, when speaking of a mixed group (or a group whose sexes were unknown), using one of the latter three nouns might often be very useful in the plural.
    If the language has a dual, perhaps nouns 4 and 5 would be used more often in the dual than noun 6; except when the speaker knows, and wishes to specify, that they are A-sex and B-sex.
    Noun 6 might be more common in the plural than the dual, if there is a dual.

    Terms for Parents:
    IMO we'll need terms for
  • A-parent (and you've given us one, namely "neni")
  • B-parent (and you've given us one, namely "dedo")
  • C-parent (and you've given us one, namely "veva")
  • any parent, regardless of sex
  • parent from whom EGO inherited nuclear genes; that is, neni or veva; maybe something like "nuniva"?
  • parent from whom EGO inherited organellic/cytoplasmic genes; that is, dedo or veva; maybe something like "ordova"? Or "cydova"?
  • parent same sex as EGO (which parent this means will change depending on EGO's sex -- if EGO has a full sibling of a different sex, this term will mean something different when spoken about that sibling than when spoken about EGO)
  • parent different sex from EGO (either of two parents -- which two, depends on EGO's sex)

    Terms for Children:
    IMO we'll need terms for
  • A-child
  • B-child
  • C-child
  • any child, regardless of sex
  • child who can pass what genes they've inherited from EGO on to their own children (when EGO is an A-person, this means "A-child or C-child"; when EGO is a B-person, this means "B-child or C-child". This term is unnecessary when EGO is a C-person.)
  • child same sex as EGO (which children this means will change depending on EGO's sex -- if EGO says "my this term", it will mean a different sex of child, than if EGO's spouse says "my this term")
  • child different sex from EGO (either of two sexes of children -- which two, depends on EGO's sex)


    Terms for Spouses:
    IMO we'll need terms for
  • A-spouse
  • B-spouse
  • C-spouse
  • any spouse, regardless of sex

  • Posted February 28th, 2017 by chiarizio
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    Let's look at
    Terms for Siblings:
    To trace genes:
    Depending on how precisely we want to specify the sex of the sibling, and how precisely we want to specify the sex(es) of the shared parent(s), we might have up to 49 different terms for siblngs.
  • marasa* sharing all three parents
  • sharing neni and veva
  • sharing dedo and veva
  • sharing neni and dedo
  • sharing neni
  • sharing dedo
  • sharing veva
  • marenna* sharing all three parents
  • sharing neni and veva
  • sharing dedo and veva
  • sharing neni and dedo
  • sharing neni
  • sharing dedo
  • sharing veva
  • maredda* sharing all three parents
  • sharing neni and veva
  • sharing dedo and veva
  • sharing neni and dedo
  • sharing neni
  • sharing dedo
  • sharing veva
  • marivva* sharing all three parents
  • sharing neni and veva
  • sharing dedo and veva
  • sharing neni and dedo
  • sharing neni
  • sharing dedo
  • sharing veva
  • marenna and/or marivva* sharing all three parents
  • sharing neni and veva
  • sharing dedo and veva
  • sharing neni and dedo
  • sharing neni
  • sharing dedo
  • sharing veva
  • maredda and/or marivva* sharing all three parents
  • sharing neni and veva
  • sharing dedo and veva
  • sharing neni and dedo
  • sharing neni
  • sharing dedo
  • sharing veva
  • marenna and/or maredda (do we really need this category?)* sharing all three parents
  • sharing neni and veva
  • sharing dedo and veva
  • sharing neni and dedo
  • sharing neni
  • sharing dedo
  • sharing veva

    Note that the #.e terms, used in the plural, could refer to siblings sharing the neni only, or the neni and the veva, or the neni and the dedo, or all three parents. But Gricean maxims would make addressees assume it meant "sharing the neni only", in singular.
    Note that the #.f terms, used in the plural, could refer to siblings sharing the dedo only, or the dedo and the veva, or the neni and the dedo, or all three parents. But Gricean maxims would make addressees assume it meant "sharing the dedo only", in singular.
    Note that the #.g terms, used in the plural, could refer to siblings sharing the veva only, or the neni and the veva, or the dedo and the veva, or all three parents. But Gricean maxims would make addressees assume it meant "sharing the veva only", in singular.

    Note that the #.b terms, used in the plural, could refer to siblings sharing the neni and the veva only, or all three parents. But Gricean maxims would make addressees assume it meant "sharing the neni and the veva only", in singular.
    Note that the #.c terms, used in the plural, could refer to siblings sharing the dedo and the veva only, or all three parents. But Gricean maxims would make addressees assume it meant "sharing the dedo and the veva only", in singular.
    Note that the #.d terms, used in the plural, could refer to siblings sharing the neni and the dedo only, or all three parents. But Gricean maxims would make addressees assume it meant "sharing the neni and the dedo only", in singular.

    _____________________________________________________________

    To trace lineages:
    We might establish a series of five terms for each set of sex-unspecified two-step relationships.
    They might depend on three binary questions, of which each two are independent of each other, but all three together are not independent.
    The questions could be: * are EGO and ALTER the same sex?
  • are EGO and the connecting relative the same sex?
  • are ALTER and the connecting relative the same sex?

    The terms could apply to the following situations:* EGO and ALTER and the connecting relative are all the same sex as each other
  • EGO and ALTER are the same sex, but the connecting relative is different
  • EGO and the connecting relative are the same sex, but ALTER is different
  • ALTER and the connecting relative are the same sex, but EGO is different
  • EGO and ALTER and the connecting relative are all different sexes

    Applied to sibling relationships, this would work as follows:
  • EGO is sex A* ALTER is EGO's maren and EGO and ALTER share a neni
  • ALTER is EGO's maren and EGO and ALTER share a dedo or a veva or both
  • ALTER is EGO's maredo or mariv and EGO and ALTER share a neni
  • Either ALTER is EGO's maredo and EGO and ALTER share a dedo, or ALTER is EGO's mariv and EGO and ALTER share a veva
  • Either ALTER is EGO's maredo and EGO and ALTER share a veva, or ALTER is EGO's mariv and EGO and ALTER share a dedo
  • EGO is sex B* ALTER is EGO's maredo and EGO and ALTER share a dedo
  • ALTER is EGO's maredo and EGO and ALTER share a neni or a veva or both
  • ALTER is EGO's maren or mariv and EGO and ALTER share a dedo
  • Either ALTER is EGO's maren and EGO and ALTER share a neni, or ALTER is EGO's mariv and EGO and ALTER share a veva
  • Either ALTER is EGO's maren and EGO and ALTER share a veva, or ALTER is EGO's mariv and EGO and ALTER share a neni
  • EGO is sex C* ALTER is EGO's mariv and EGO and ALTER share a veva
  • ALTER is EGO's mariv and EGO and ALTER share a neni or a dedo or both
  • ALTER is EGO's maren or maredo and EGO and ALTER share a veva
  • Either ALTER is EGO's maren and EGO and ALTER share a neni, or ALTER is EGO's maredo and EGO and ALTER share a dedo
  • Either ALTER is EGO's maren and EGO and ALTER share a dedo, or ALTER is EGO's maredo and EGO and ALTER share a neni

  • Posted February 28th, 2017 by chiarizio
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    If and when we are mainly interested in tracing lineages, rather than tracking genes:
    The same series of five subterms can also be applied to:
  • Parent's parent's
  • Parent's children = siblings (we just did that in the previous post)
  • Children's parents (that is, spouses; but nobody has a same-sex spouse)
  • Children's children

    If one of us feels like it, they could also be applied to:
  • Parent's siblings
  • Parent's spouses (if not EGO's own parents) (note no parent has a same-sex spouse) (these will be some of EGO's step-parents)
  • Sibling's parents (if not EGO's own parents) (these will be some of EGO's step-parents)
  • Sibling's siblings (if not EGO's own siblings) (these will be some of EGO's step-siblings)
  • Sibling's spouses (note no sibling has a same-sex spouse)
  • Sibling's children
  • Spouse's parents (note EGO can't have a same-sex spouse)
  • Spouse's siblings (note EGO can't have a same-sex spouse)
  • Spouse's spouses (if not EGO themself and not EGO's other spouse) (note EGO can't have a same-sex spouse, and EGO's spouse also cannot have a same-sex spouse, so the only question is whether EGO's spouse's spouse is the same sex as EGO or a different sex from EGO)
  • Spouse's children (if not EGO's own children) (note EGO can't have a same-sex spouse) (these will be some of EGO's step-children)
  • Children's siblings (if not EGO's children) (these will be some of EGO's step-children)
  • Children's spouses (note EGO's child can't have a same-sex spouse)
  • Children's children
    The series will have only three member-terms (3 and 4 and 5) for the spouse's {parents or siblings or children} because EGO's spouse must be a different sex from EGO.
    The series will also have only three member-terms (a different set, 2 and 3 and 5) for the {parent's or sibling's or children's} spouses because the connecting relative's spouse must be a different sex from the connecting relative.
    And the series will have only two member-terms (2 and 5) for the spouse's spouses, because neither EGO nor ALTER can be the same sex as the connecting relative.

    EGO's parent's spouse may or may not be another one of EGO's parent's; let's ordinarily assume this is not the case. Then EGO's parent's spouse is a step-parent of EGO.
    EGO's parent's child will be one of EGO's siblings, rather than EGO.
    EGO's sibling's parent may or may not also be EGO's parent; let's ordinarily assume this is not the case. Then EGO's sibling's parent will be EGO's step-parent.
    EGO's sibling's sibling may or may not also be EGO's sibling; let's ordinarily assume this is not the case. Then EGO's sibling's sibling will probably be EGO's step-sibling.
    EGO's spouse's spouse may or may not be EGO, and may or may not also be EGO's other spouse; let's ordinarily assume none of these is the case.
    EGO's spouse's child may or may not also be EGO's child; let's ordinarily assume that it is, instead, EGO's step-child.
    EGO's child's parent, if not EGO themself (and let's assume they're not), can ordinarily be assumed to be EGO's spouse, or EGO's late spouse, or EGO's ex-spouse, or EGO's intended spouse. Let's make that assumption.
    EGO's child's sibling may, or may not, be another one of EGO's children. Let's ordinarily assume not; then they are EGO's step-child.

  • Posted February 28th, 2017 by chiarizio
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    Alternative Set of Terms for Siblings?
    If and when we are mainly interested in tracking genes, rather than tracing lineages:
    We might use a somewhat reduced set of the terms (36 terms instead of 49 terms) from the post just before my last post.
  • ALTER is EGO's mara* and EGO and ALTER share all three parents
  • and EGO and ALTER share a neni and/or a veva
  • and EGO and ALTER share a dedo and/or a veva
  • and EGO and ALTER share a neni
  • and EGO and ALTER share a dedo
  • and EGO and ALTER share a veva
  • ALTER is EGO's maren* and EGO and ALTER share all three parents
  • and EGO and ALTER share a neni and/or a veva
  • and EGO and ALTER share a dedo and/or a veva
  • and EGO and ALTER share a neni
  • and EGO and ALTER share a dedo
  • and EGO and ALTER share a veva
  • ALTER is EGO's maredo* and EGO and ALTER share all three parents
  • and EGO and ALTER share a neni and/or a veva
  • and EGO and ALTER share a dedo and/or a veva
  • and EGO and ALTER share a neni
  • and EGO and ALTER share a dedo
  • and EGO and ALTER share a veva
  • ALTER is EGO's mariv* and EGO and ALTER share all three parents
  • and EGO and ALTER share a neni and/or a veva
  • and EGO and ALTER share a dedo and/or a veva
  • and EGO and ALTER share a neni
  • and EGO and ALTER share a dedo
  • and EGO and ALTER share a veva
  • ALTER is EGO's maren or mariv* and EGO and ALTER share all three parents
  • and EGO and ALTER share a neni and/or a veva
  • and EGO and ALTER share a dedo and/or a veva
  • and EGO and ALTER share a neni
  • and EGO and ALTER share a dedo
  • and EGO and ALTER share a veva
  • ALTER is EGO's maredo or mariv* and EGO and ALTER share all three parents
  • and EGO and ALTER share a neni and/or a veva
  • and EGO and ALTER share a dedo and/or a veva
  • and EGO and ALTER share a neni
  • and EGO and ALTER share a dedo
  • and EGO and ALTER share a veva

    We could reduce the set even further by leaving out or conflating one or some or all of the terms 2c and 2e and 5c and 5e, and/or one or some or all of the terms 3b and 3d and 6b and 6d.

    And we could also or instead make one or some or all of the following pairs of terms homophonous:
    terms 2b and 3c;
    terms 2d and 3e;
    terms 5b and 6c;
    terms 5d and 6e.

    If we did all of that we'd have 24 terms instead of 36.

    _____________________________________________________________

    Danpyr culture may not need all of these terms for part-siblings, unless many Danpyr have part-siblings.
    I've been operating under the assumption that Danpyr who share at least one parent are likelier than not to share at least two parents, but Danpyr who share at least one parent are less likely than not to share all three parents.
    I don't really know how that assumption (or other assumptions inconsistent with it) would affect my previous discussion.
    Since Danpyr are a whole species, and they live all around their home planet, they are likely to have different cultures in different places.

    _____________________________________________________________

    In the marriage-market, the B-sex people will have an advantage, because they are twice as rare as either other sex; so they can afford to be "choosy" or "picky".
    It might be the common thing for B-sex Danpyr to have at least two simultaneous marriages; either two A-spouses and one C-spouse, or two C-spouses and one A-spouse, or two A-spouses and two C-spouses (this is likeliest).
    If the C-sex Danpyr gestate the offspring, they, also will be choosy and picky and probably demand a bride-price.
    Since a pregnant C-spouse can't be re-impregnated until ve has delivered, ver spouses might prefer to have more than one C-spouse.
    I imagine this would be most tolerable for a B-person to have more than one spouse (of either sex), and for any Danpyr to have more than one C-spouse; although, if there aren't enough marriageable C-Danpyr to go around (maybe A-Danpyr have a mortality rate less than half as high as C-Danpyrs'?), it might lead to pressure on A-Danpyr to stick with just one C-spouse at a time.

  • Posted February 28th, 2017 by chiarizio
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    If we are tracking lineages, instead of genes (or, at least, are emphasing lineages more than genes), we might have the following terms for grandparents and grandchildren.

    Grandparents:
  • EGO and ALTER and EGO's parent (ALTER's child) are all the same sex.
  • EGO and ALTER are the same sex, but EGO's parent (ALTER's child) is a different sex.
  • EGO and EGO's parent (ALTER's child) are the same sex, but ALTER is a different sex.
  • ALTER and EGO's parent (ALTER's child) are the same sex, but EGO is a different sex.
  • No two of EGO and ALTER and EGO's parent (ALTER's child) are the same sex as each other.

  • If EGO is sex A:
  • EGO's neni's neni;
  • EGO's dedo's neni and veva's neni;
  • EGO's neni's dedo and neni's veva;
  • EGO's dedo's dedo and veva's veva;
  • EGO's dedo's veva and veva's dedo.
  • If EGO is sex B:* EGO's dedo's dedo;
  • EGO's neni's dedo and veva's dedo;
  • EGO's dedo's neni and dedo's veva;
  • EGO's neni's neni and veva's veva;
  • EGO's neni's veva and veva's neni.
  • If EGO is sex C:* EGO's veva's veva;
  • EGO's neni's veva and dedo's veva;
  • EGO's veva's neni and veva's dedo;
  • EGO's neni's neni and dedo's dedo;
  • EGO's neni's dedo and dedo's neni.

    The list for grandchildren-terms would have essentially the reciprocal structure, but without terms for "A-child" and "B-child" and "C-child" is a little unsatisfactory to write out at the moment.

  • Posted March 3rd, 2017 by chiarizio
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    @anyone (e.g. @bb4r):
    Any response to this?

    Posted December 23rd, 2017 by chiarizio
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    Now, maybe?

    Posted December 25th, 2018 by chiarizio
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    Now, maybe?


    I will look into this again when I'm not as busy.

    Posted December 25th, 2018 by bloodb4roses
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    @LinguistCat:
    @BloodB4Roses:
    I hope you’ve had a good year-and-three-quarters!

    I gather a lot of this thread is obsolete now; but not all of it is.
    What still applies, and what progress has been made?

    Posted September 8th by chiarizio
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    Reply to: Danpyr kinterms
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