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09/11/2001 WE REMEMBER

"Fear is the foundation of most governments." - John Adams

"Despite the constant negative press covfefe" - Donald Trump


I have a literal communist friend that I've been talking to about communism a lot. It would be cool if I could bounce ideas off someone here as well.

My friend and I agreed that if hierarchial structures are the problem, socialism will never lead to communism, so anarcho-communism is more viable.



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There are 38 Replies

#CIA


Your tagging system is fucking hilarious.

Anyway, I'm definitely not a communist, but I recently found out that one of my favorite YouTubers has anarcho-communist leanings. I didn't expect it from him on account of him being a pretty stable family man.

The 45-minute video of him reading from the Communist Manifesto might have been a tip-off, though.

Posted November 9th by nullfather
nullfather

Poptart, Jet Presto, Temerit, Just Because, Agis, pacman , yeah there are some commies here. Theres a few more than that too.

(I consider "social democrats" commies because the differences are minor. Those above are either admitted communists in a few cases, or so far left they aren't distinguishable among those who would label themselves that.)

Edited November 9th by #85
#85

have you guis seen that episode of seinfeld with the communist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxuBhemD3nk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6PdecBn2no

Posted November 9th by Kaot0
Kaot0

I sometimes pretend to be a communist so that none of my (very) republican family is really sure how far to the left I lean. (They know my communist-sounding comments are tongue-in-cheek, but not exactly how much).

For instance the other day I told my mom, “Not only do I believe that this country’s massive wealth inequality is a systemic failing of society and taxing the rich might be a viable solution, but also that private property should be abolished at the hands of the impending proletariat revolution, comrade."

It started as something of a subconscious defense. (I use it to diffuse tension when I start getting upset). I realize it is kinda cowardly. But I also think it’s funny.

The result is that not even I know how far left I lean anymore.

Posted November 9th by Cetasaurus
Cetasaurus
formerly KM8

A dangerous road, Cet.

"I believe that you can reach the point where there is no longer any difference between developing the habit of pretending to believe and developing the habit of believing. [...] We invented a nonexistent Plan [...] But if you invent a plan and others carry it out, it's as if the Plan exists. At that point it does exist."

Posted November 9th by nullfather
nullfather

Warning heeded.

Posted November 9th by Cetasaurus
Cetasaurus
formerly KM8

Typical 85 painting any one remotely on the left as a commie.

I'm not a communist I'm a fidelista!

One of my professors is a full blown commie though he doesn't bring it up In class but his Facebook reminds me of a soviet library.

Posted November 9th by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 

@SOH I didn't include you even though you are a little more than remotely on the left. I remember the days when you were more center-right. However in more recent years you have bandwagoned onto the anti white left. Those I listed except for Jet and Temerit have described themselves in a marxist variation. These 2 have described themselves in more Democratic Socialist terms (which if you know anything about it, is just Communism-Lite).

Edited November 9th by #85
#85

Anti white left

I laughed. I'm a progressive republican these days. I even changed my personal views on abortion. Among other things .



Posted November 9th by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 

Not that it matters, since nuance is dead, but I am not an anything-ist. I find any singular economic system to be full of flaws and benefits, thus I prefer pulling elements from various systems, including socialism and capitalism. I might occasionally describe myself as something of a Democratic Socialist (which I generally don't, because that hardly encapsulates what I actually believe), but primarily because as far as labels go, that might be a closer - yet still incomplete or inaccurate - than other terms.

And also not that it matters, since nuance is dead, but socialism and communism are not interchangeable. So if the question is, "Who here is a literal communist?" Any answer of, "He's a socialist, which is basically a communist" or some variation (such as, "Well, regardless of the actual definitions and deeper ideologies, *I* consider them the same") is not an accurate answer.

So, sorry, Xhin. Can't help you since I'm not a communist. I'll cede the the remainder of my time to #85, since he evidently knows me better than I do. I trust he will represent my opinion with the utmost respect to nuance and facts, so if you have any questions about my stance on communism, I would ask that you forward questions directed at me to #85. Cheers.

Edited November 9th by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Democratic Socialists might be able to convince me they aren't related to Communism if they weren't actively working alongside open Communist Organizations and so much of their rhetoric originating with Karl Marx.

Democratic Socialists might be able to convince me they aren't related to Communism if their entire focus wasn't on "white supremacy" or "white oppresion" or whatever language you'd like to use. Absolutely no attention is paid to black nationalism, hispanic nationalism, etc . Every other group gets free reign and that just leads me to believe they arent "anti hate" or "anti supremacy" they are simply just anti white.

Posted November 9th by #85
#85

(I consider "social democrats" commies

Social democrats want to reap the benefits of socialism without ending capitalism. They do this mostly through taxation/social programs and wealth redistribution.

Socialists want the government (which should ideally be the people, but never is) to have control over industry. This might be an intermediate step towards communism or it might not (nationalist socialists for example were definitely not heading towards communism).

Communists want a system where the workers control industry in its entirety. There's no state enforcing that, it's just a situation where you have workers that create collectives rather than hierarchial corporations.

There's definitely differences between all three. American Democrats tend to be Social Democrats Lite, while the left in europe is closer to the social democrat ideal.


Posted November 9th by Xhin
Xhin
 

Democratic Socialists might be able to convince me they aren't related to Communism if they weren't actively working alongside open Communist Organizations

Sometimes groups may have similar goals despite not being part of the same group.

For example, there was a conservative march where there were nazis openly marching chanting nazi slogans. Does that mean that everyone there at that march was a nazi?

Posted November 9th by Xhin
Xhin
 

The appeal of anarcho-communism is obvious, but it’s too idealistic and only looks good on paper. More moderate, realistic versions based on similar principles would be anarcho-syndicalism and libertarian socialism. Chomsky talks about these quite a bit. You’d also probably be interested in the works of people like Bakunin and Luxemburg. In general the non-Leninist revolutionaries of the early 20th century are incredibly fascinating even if you disagree with their various ideologies.

Also, 85 doesn’t know dick about dick when he talks about communism and socialism. Poptart and I are the only ones on his commie blacklist who even come close to being communists, and even then, 85 is closer to Nazism than we are to communism.

One last thing: reading or being influenced by Marx doesn’t make someone a Marxist or communist. This applies to all literature, thinkers and philosophers. For instance, I have been influened by the Bible a great deal, yet I am not a Christian. In any case, the only person here who seems to care all that much about Marxism is 85. He is goddamn obsessed.

Posted November 9th by pacman
pacman
 

I know quite a few that I co uld invite in ifyou want.

Posted November 9th by tnu
tnu

I had a communist friend, once. It wasn't the communism that tore us apart, but his animal rights advocacy (he believed leash laws should be repealed and leashes themselves should be banned, which creates some obvious problems, but I should also mention he's a furry and i don't believe he spent much time around actual canines [the deeper issue is that i caught him multiple times arguing for political stances that I know he didn't actually believe in]). Most of our communism discussions came down to the idea that communism turns into the horrible systems we saw in North Korea, China, Russia, etc with leaders, because humans can't be trusted. The only "true communism" could exist in the form of anarcho-communism, which was also impossible, because it's unmaintainable, since the anarchy would be overrulled the moment someone gets greedy, which is a part of human nature. From there we concluded that Utopia is impossible, yet still worth reaching for, in so far as we don't screw ourselves over worse in the process (by killing massive amounts of people, etc).

Posted November 9th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak

i'm just a fellow traveler

like comrade pac mentioned, anarcho-communism is appealing but probably too idealistic. i'm just anti-corporation and anti-government - you can find me firmly in the bottom left of that stupid political compass, but probably not far enough to be considered a commie or an anarchist

pac is also right that #85 doesn't know dick about dick

Edited November 9th by poptart!
poptart!
 

I'd wager I've read the most political literature here. From commie trash like The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital. to classical liberal literature like Common Sense, to the natsoc Mein Kampf. I have a couple others I've been meaning to read but been putting off. I breathe this shit.

Posted November 9th by #85
#85

good job, you know the titles of 4 popular books. let's put you on jeopardy

Edited November 9th by poptart!
poptart!
 

"He hasn't studied shit" "Yes I have" "No you havent"

um ok



Posted November 9th by #85
#85

i remeber we had mein kampf at my school library. it had a red cover and it make it look like hitlers skin was red and it showed hitler in a military uniform. i saw the book and got chills...never heard of the other books u listed though.

Edited November 9th by Brandy
Brandy

Common Sense is a good one that inspired many of our Founding Fathers. The other 2 are just commie shit.

Posted November 9th by #85
#85

"Common Sense is a good one that inspired many of our Founding Fathers. The other 2 are just commie shit"

interesting that you left out mein kampf - how do you feel about that one?

Posted November 9th by poptart!
poptart!
 

He recognized that one but not the other 3, you drunk again or something? Couldn't understand that?

Posted November 9th by #85
#85

i have a strong feeling u think im a guy

Posted November 9th by Brandy
Brandy

#85, ad hominem. Saying that you have certain knowledge is convincing, but it actually holds no weight in an argument. As such, neither does "he doesn't know anything about it." The deeper you fall into that trap, the more it becomes "Can you even talk about an issue, or should you keep your mouth shut?" And furthest, "Anyone who does not have a degree in theory X cannot rationally talk about the pros and cons of theory X, despite theory X degrees depending on following a particular indoctrination course."

You should read up on Paul Graham's "How to disagree," as you say you eat up philosophical things. Given you're conservative, you should understand that the left is way more convincing with ad hominem attacks (because they control education, for the most part). As such, you should learn how to not fall victim to them and expose them for what they are.

That is not to say that the left relies on those tactics, but as far as bottom level tactics go, that particular type of logical fallacy is more useful to the left. Both sides should destroy such arguments when they see them, except in the few cases where they hold merit (for example, if you wanted to decide who to learn how computers work from, I coded my own OS kernel from scratch, while Xhin coded his own site from scratch, so if you had to choose between us, your deeper interest should determine who you should prioritize learning more from).

Posted November 9th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak

Communism is necessarily totalitarian, and I'm not just saying that because all Communism has been totalitarian. There is no conception of liberty that does not recognize our rights to private property. There is no conception of liberty that empowers state actors to facilitate the violent revolution by way of theft and murder. And there is certainly no conception of liberty that subsumes the individual in favor of the collective. Communists try to reconcile these fatal problems by rejecting the terms of the debate.

The wannabe revolutionaries we've seen marching this year - you know, the window breakers - demonstrate though their actions that they do not believe in any kind of liberty wherein individual human beings have any kind of rights. And how precisely do we transition from visiting violence on your political opponents to a worker's paradise? Why must Communism tear down statues, outlaw religion, and figuratively and literally burn to the ground everything that remained of the old world? With utopia unattainable, what I think these people really want is to be members of The Party. They imagine making it to middle management and getting an office a few floors up so that they won't have to hear the screams coming from the basement where enemies of the perpetual revolution are receiving their sentence.



Edited November 9th by Famov
Famov

Very well said Famov.

Kohlrak enough with the Molymemeing

Posted November 9th by #85
#85

Communism is necessarily totalitarian, and I'm not just saying that because all Communism has been totalitarian. There is no conception of liberty that does not recognize our rights to private property. There is no conception of liberty that empowers state actors to facilitate the violent revolution by way of theft and murder. And there is certainly no conception of liberty that subsumes the individual in favor of the collective. Communists try to reconcile these fatal problems by rejecting the terms of the debate.


They also try to deny that it's totalitarian, saying anarcho-communism, but then fail to understand that the anarchy bit always falls apart in reality. Communism needs an enforcing mechanism, but by having an enforcing mechanism, the equality presented by communism ceases to exist, which is why all the failed communist regimes "weren't true communism" but invitably fell into that category anyway.

The wannabe revolutionaries we've seen marching this year - you know, the window breakers - demonstrate though their actions that they do not believe in any kind of liberty wherein individual human beings have any kind of rights. And how precisely do we transition from visiting violence on your political opponents to a worker's paradise?


These organizations typically are even more violent towards people who leave their movement. It's very much like a religion: everyone who's not one of us is evil, but the most evil of which are people who were once us.

Why must Communism tear down statues, outlaw religion, and figuratively and literally burn to the ground everything that remained of the old world?


It's all opposition. It's a temptation to leave communism. Someone might actually feel that communism isn't the best system, so all symbols of anything incompatible with communism must be destroyed to prevent the temptation. And then there's the thing, too, like with some religions, people of other religions surviving and doing well makes them question their own religion.

With utopia unattainable, what I think these people really want is to be members of The Party. They imagine making it to middle management and getting an office a few floors up so that they won't have to hear the screams coming from the basement where enemies of the perpetual revolution are receiving their sentence.


I think some of them are like this, but not all. I think some people get caught up in it and actually believe that there will be a turn-around point. They believe the justification that their allies have for going against the very principles they are promoting.

Posted November 9th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak

Someone let me know when #85 manages to construct an argument, so i can unblock him long enough to read it. I don't expect it to be any time soon, though. XD

Posted November 9th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak

Who even is that guy and where did he come from?

Posted November 10th by #85
#85

i have a strong feeling u think im a guy

Ok my mistake, did you have another name you used?

Posted November 10th by #85
#85

My girlfriend was a non-participating member of China Communist Youth league. My (probably) future father in law is part of the communist party. Haven't met him yet, I hear he's funny.

No matter how many times 85 days so, I'm not a communist myself. I had a sympathy towards it in college but coming to China pretty much through me into a full embrace of democracy and anti-authoritarianism/Chinese systems. Trump's election has allowed me to take on a more nuanced understanding of both countries.

Posted November 10th by Agis
Agis
 

Chinese communism is it's own beast though. Far different than the communism of the USSR.

Posted November 10th by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 

i have a strong feeling u think im a guy

I dunno. We have this mod named Vandy. Can't exactly say its all fine and dandy when we could mistake you for his gf.

Posted November 10th by ShadowFox08
ShadowFox08

No matter how many times 85 days so, I'm not a communist myself. I had a sympathy towards it in college but coming to China pretty much through me into a full embrace of democracy and anti-authoritarianism/Chinese systems. Trump's election has allowed me to take on a more nuanced understanding of both countries.

If you dislike the Chinese system so much....why are you still in China?

What are your thoughts on Karl Marx?

How then would you describe yourself politically?

Posted November 10th by #85
#85

Why are you still in China

He's survived this far and is in grad school would be a pretty bad move to leave now Imo.

There are aspects of u.s. society that I personally hate but I don't plan to leave any time soon.

Posted November 10th by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 

I don't dislike China as a whole, but I do dislike it's government because it's deceptive, repressive, and completely disrespectful of human rights. In my every day life, fervent nationalism and close-mindedness gets annoying. But that doesn't mean the government doesn't have its advantages and the people are good and friendly in general.

The Chinese-American relationship is the single most important international relationship in the world and will dictate the direction of the world order for the next hundred years. Whether you dislike or like the country isn't important; there are challenges and opportunities and we should look at them in both objective and nuanced ways.

Posted November 10th by Agis
Agis
 
Reply to: Is anyone here a literal communist?

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