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Yup. Harping on this shit again.

Christians, what exactly ISN'T depressing about your concept of heaven?

You're basically telling me I have no future. Why would I look forward to being castrated, lobotomized, and essentially raped? A world where I'm eternal barred from the one thing I want more than anything else and makes this life essentially meaningless, since we supposedly forget everything anyway.

What exactly is so great about heaven? Am I just shot up with heroine for eternity? Essentially a mindlessly happy drone? In that case, I'd like to just die and cease to exist, please. Because that's essentially what you're doing anyway. What's so great about God? What's great about having a creepy bearded narcissistic old man stare at you forever while you perpetually kiss his ass? What's wonderful about that? "HURR DURR YOU'LL BE IN THE PRESENCE OF GAWD, MAAAAAAAN!" So? Why is this so wonderful?

I don't get a choice in the matter, either. I can't just choose to live on earth or something similar for eternity. It's an ultimatum of get castrated and lobotomized, or be tortured forever (or death, depending on who you ask.)

And then all this "end times" drama bullshit where I basically have the watch the world I love burn only to know I'm going to the most insipid concept of an existence imaginable where I can apperently have mansions and streets and gold and being a priest/king and judging nations, none of which I give a single crap about, but I can't have my simple, innocent little pleasures and be left alone.

Why do I keep harping on this if I don't believe? Because I sometimes feel like I want to go back to Christianity, but this is too depressing of a concept. At least with atheism, I can wrap my head around it and know it's just the universe being the uncaring machine it is, instead of feeling like some malevolent, selfish entity is just toying with me. Even as an unbeliever, this idea of heaven upsets and depresses me greatly.

And it doesn't help that Christians, both when I was one, and now, treat me like some kind of EEEEVIL heretic or idolator because I find this idea of heaven to be wretchedly depressing. HURR DURR, YOU IDOLIZE SEX AND CHILDREN!!! Yeah, well, so do you. If God is really the best thing ever, put your money where your mouth is. Live like a monk, don't even think about having children or sex or a wife. Don't have any hobbies. Just live like monks and help the poor because God is god, right? He's all you need to be happy. Or is that just a lie to make yourself feel superior, you pharisee?

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There are 36 Replies

First off, God is not a man, he's a holy spirit. Secondly, in heaven there won't be mansions or gold, have you not read the bible? Sooner will a camel pass through a needles eye than a rich man enter the kingdom of heaven. These worldly things you mention won't be in the hereafter, they are but diversions and amusement in comparison to the here-after, that is the true and eternal life.

Edited October 16th by Brandy
Brandy

"he's a holy spirit"

What does that even mean? Can you even define either of those two terms?

"Secondly, in heaven there won't be mansions or gold, have you not read the bible?"

Pretty sure the bible explicitly states that there are. Have YOU read it?

"they are but diversions and amusement in comparison to the here-after"

So, life is basically meaningless.

Posted October 16th by Cupola
Cupola
 

Jeez, Clement, it has been a decade or more. You're STILL here? Playing this SAME song? Doesn't it get old?

You may not believe in hell, but shit man... your life must be close to it if this is still what you're obsessed with; antagonizing something you don't even believe in since fuckin 2005 to strangers online.

Posted October 16th by ChooChoo31
ChooChoo31
 

It was 2007, actually.

But yes, my life isn't exactly what I had hoped for. Could be worse, but could be a lot better, too.

Posted October 16th by Cupola
Cupola
 

Read "All Things New." Literally answers all your concerns by the end of Chapter One. Came out last month. Great read.

Or be bitter and miserable forever.

You get to choose.

Posted October 16th by NatsumeFun
NatsumeFun
 

Funny, I was actually considering checking that out.

Posted October 16th by Cupola
Cupola
 

Why does it bother you what someone else believes? especially when you still don't understand it?

Posted October 16th by Xhin
Xhin
 

It's not so much what they believe. It's basically that they treat anyone who disagrees like shit and act like they're some kind of heathen our blasphemer or something.

Posted October 16th by Cupola
Cupola
 

Why did 2 people just come out of nowhere to post here? Anyway, I may or may not say something when I'm not this tired.

Edited October 16th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

Christians, what exactly ISN'T depressing about your concept of heaven?


Heaven isn't even defined, actually. Most of what people believe comes from outside of the bible.

You're basically telling me I have no future. Why would I look forward to being castrated, lobotomized, and essentially raped? A world where I'm eternal barred from the one thing I want more than anything else and makes this life essentially meaningless, since we supposedly forget everything anyway.


I have a feeling that understanding this part requires context that we don't have.

What exactly is so great about heaven? Am I just shot up with heroine for eternity? Essentially a mindlessly happy drone? In that case, I'd like to just die and cease to exist, please. Because that's essentially what you're doing anyway. What's so great about God? What's great about having a creepy bearded narcissistic old man stare at you forever while you perpetually kiss his ass? What's wonderful about that? "HURR DURR YOU'LL BE IN THE PRESENCE OF GAWD, MAAAAAAAN!" So? Why is this so wonderful?


I have no idea where you got this interpretation of heaven from. But, I'd love to.

I don't get a choice in the matter, either. I can't just choose to live on earth or something similar for eternity. It's an ultimatum of get castrated and lobotomized, or be tortured forever (or death, depending on who you ask.)


I think you're asking for a bit much by demanding what heaven is to be like for you. Though, one of the few parts of the bible that talks about the after life seems to suggest that this actually is what it's like, minus all the bullshit.

And then all this "end times" drama bullshit where I basically have the watch the world I love burn only to know I'm going to the most insipid concept of an existence imaginable where I can apperently have mansions and streets and gold and being a priest/king and judging nations, none of which I give a single crap about, but I can't have my simple, innocent little pleasures and be left alone.


There's alot to do with the whole end-game of it all. It sounds to me like your desires are out of line with what is meant to remain, anyway, so i think it's a bit fruitless to worry about it.

Why do I keep harping on this if I don't believe? Because I sometimes feel like I want to go back to Christianity, but this is too depressing of a concept. At least with atheism, I can wrap my head around it and know it's just the universe being the uncaring machine it is, instead of feeling like some malevolent, selfish entity is just toying with me. Even as an unbeliever, this idea of heaven upsets and depresses me greatly.


I think what it really is, is that Christianity makes sense, but you're being held back by one of many guesses of what heaven is like. We really have absolutely no clue. In fact, getting to heaven isn't actually the whole point of being Christian, anyway.

And it doesn't help that Christians, both when I was one, and now, treat me like some kind of EEEEVIL heretic or idolator because I find this idea of heaven to be wretchedly depressing.


I definitely see your view of heaven very much the kind of place I wouldn't want to be, either. Fortunately for me, the place i've come to interpret seems entirely different from what you describe. Not to say you'd like the conclusion i've come to any better, but at least it doesn't sound like something out of Engel by Rammstein.

HURR DURR, YOU IDOLIZE SEX AND CHILDREN!!! Yeah, well, so do you. If God is really the best thing ever, put your money where your mouth is. Live like a monk, don't even think about having children or sex or a wife. Don't have any hobbies. Just live like monks and help the poor because God is god, right? He's all you need to be happy. Or is that just a lie to make yourself feel superior, you pharisee?


Speaking from experience, desires involve perspectives. God wouldn't have to mess with your brain to influence your desire to have sex, but hormones would work, too. Hell, my libido went to hell from bad experiences with women. Hobbies vary with perspective, too. I'm a jack of all trades: I can program in many different programming languages; i'm into martial arts; I can speak some spanish; i spend lots of time on video games; psychology is fun; philosophy is fun, too; and 日本語でも話せる. If i sat here longer, i'm sure i could come up with plenty more hobbies that I have, that, even without death, heaven, or whatever, i'll probably end up giving up for the next thing, anyway. Presumably, though, He wouldn't create a being dependent on purpose, only to remove all purpose from his existance? Yeah, that's hell. It seems the biggest issue, here, is that your mind is really small on this matter.

Posted October 16th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak

I have a feeling that understanding this part requires context that we don't have.

Basically, the only thing I've ever wanted out of life was sexual love and intimacy, and being able to have children. Christians often talked about "the end times" which always freaked me out, especially when I was younger and I was always worried I wouldn't get to grow up and have all the things in life I wanted to experience. Particularly, having a wife, children, great grandchildren, and beyond. The obsession with it really started with a seemingly innocent joke from the 70's sitcom, All in the family as follows.

Edith: Wouldn't it be nice if Stretch Cunningham and Cousin Liz met up in Heaven? Oh, I think they'd like each other.

Archie: What good would it to them?

Edith: What do you mean?

Archie: Cause when they're up in Heaven, they ain't got nothin' to do nothin' with, you know? Ain't you never seen pictures of angels flying around in the churches there? The only parts they got is the wings, see? The rest of them is smooth. That's another reason the angels ain't ashamed to fly around naked.

I believe I was 13 at the time and while the intended humor wasn't lost on me, it sparked the fire that would consumed my faith. "Wait... that never occurred to me." I thought. And I began asking about it, which only spiraled into an out of control obsession and fear that I would never get what I really wanted and would be barred from it for no good reason. Esspecially since there were (supposedly) mansions, streets of gold, riches, and other, decidedly "material" things, yet I was barred from one simple, innocent pleasure that I wanted so badly? I even dabbled in Mormonism for a bit, with the hope that the solution lay there ('MEMBER SPACEMAN99?! OOH, I 'MEMBER!), but reached a dead end when I realized they were asking from me more than seemed reasonable for how ridiculous and obviously made up the story of the golden plates was, and that I would have to be an idiot to believe it at that point. It was very depressing.

I have no idea where you got this interpretation of heaven from. But, I'd love to.

Other Christians, mostly. I still don't get what's so great about God's presence.

I think you're asking for a bit much by demanding what heaven is to be like for you. Though, one of the few parts of the bible that talks about the after life seems to suggest that this actually is what it's like, minus all the bullshit."

I would think I should get some say in where and how *I* want to spend eternity. If someone wants to have their entire personality and being erased and replaced with a shallow mockery, that's their prerogative, but I don't want that for myself and I don't think I should be made to feel like some kind of horrible sinner just because I don't.

There's alot to do with the whole end-game of it all. It sounds to me like your desires are out of line with what is meant to remain, anyway, so i think it's a bit fruitless to worry about it.

Which is basically like a slap in the face. Like I'm being punished for following the rules. God might as well come down and say "Fuck you, Jonathan. I hate you and everything you stand for." At least I would be able to comprehend that.

I think what it really is, is that Christianity makes sense, but you're being held back by one of many guesses of what heaven is like. We really have absolutely no clue. In fact, getting to heaven isn't actually the whole point of being Christian, anyway.

They sure make it out to be. For me, it was always "If you're not going to let me have a wife and children, then can I just die, please?

Presumably, though, He wouldn't create a being dependent on purpose, only to remove all purpose from his existance? Yeah, that's hell. It seems the biggest issue, here, is that your mind is really small on this matter.

See, it's basically yanking the rug out from under me. Like I'm being punished for caring about anything. What's the point of doing good if it all gets thrown in the trash, anyway?

Posted October 16th by Cupola
Cupola
 

The best part about what other people believe is that you can completely disregard it.

And they won't be treating you like shit because of YOUR beliefs if they don't know your beliefs...in other words, why are you getting into this shit in the first place?

Posted October 16th by nullfather
nullfather

I guess I just HAD to have a conclusive answer one way or the other, and I never really did get one. At least if I knew for sure there was no sex or eros or procreation in heaven, at least I could act accordingly and just begin training myself to treat this world with cold indifference and give up on any false hope. I wasn't going to bother putting effort into being a good husband or father if I was just going to loose those things anyway. Further, I wouldn't put any offspring in the position of not being able to have any of THEIR own.

Posted October 16th by Cupola
Cupola
 

Basically, the only thing I've ever wanted out of life was sexual love and intimacy, and being able to have children. Christians often talked about "the end times" which always freaked me out, especially when I was younger and I was always worried I wouldn't get to grow up and have all the things in life I wanted to experience. Particularly, having a wife, children, great grandchildren, and beyond. The obsession with it really started with a seemingly innocent joke from the 70's sitcom, All in the family as follows.


Frankly, we can't all get what we want in life, regardless of heaven and hell. We don't know what heaven's actually like, so everything's pure conjecture, even it's very existance.

Edith: Wouldn't it be nice if Stretch Cunningham and Cousin Liz met up in Heaven? Oh, I think they'd like each other.

Archie: What good would it to them?

Edith: What do you mean?

Archie: Cause when they're up in Heaven, they ain't got nothin' to do nothin' with, you know? Ain't you never seen pictures of angels flying around in the churches there? The only parts they got is the wings, see? The rest of them is smooth. That's another reason the angels ain't ashamed to fly around naked.


And you took this seriously?

I believe I was 13 at the time and while the intended humor wasn't lost on me, it sparked the fire that would consumed my faith. "Wait... that never occurred to me." I thought. And I began asking about it, which only spiraled into an out of control obsession and fear that I would never get what I really wanted and would be barred from it for no good reason. Esspecially since there were (supposedly) mansions, streets of gold, riches, and other, decidedly "material" things, yet I was barred from one simple, innocent pleasure that I wanted so badly? I even dabbled in Mormonism for a bit, with the hope that the solution lay there ('MEMBER SPACEMAN99?! OOH, I 'MEMBER!), but reached a dead end when I realized they were asking from me more than seemed reasonable for how ridiculous and obviously made up the story of the golden plates was, and that I would have to be an idiot to believe it at that point. It was very depressing.


I vaguely remember someone from GT dabbling in much, much more than just that. I remember spending hours, maybe even days, with this guy talking about astral projection, aliens, and a bunch of other occult things. I can't remember who it was, but i have this strange feeling it might've been you.

But, anyway, it sounds to me the problem is less about heaven or our interpretation of it, and more about about this obsession. Frankly, women are genetically predisposed to obsess over making babies, yet so many of them fail to do so, regardless of God. So, you're telling us that the only thing you ever want to exist for, that you value at all, is getting laid? If you don't mind me asking, have you ever actually gotten laid?

Other Christians, mostly. I still don't get what's so great about God's presence.


The general idea is actually having a personal connection to someone who could grant any wish, should you be successful at convincing Him it's a good idea. Presumably, if this is your primary desire, you should be more focused on explaining to Him why it's so damn important.

I would think I should get some say in where and how *I* want to spend eternity.


Yeah. Presumably you have 2 choices, as 2 places were presumably prepared. If you want a 3rd choice, prepare your arguments for the big cheese. I think it's a bit much making demands for something you failed to earn.

If someone wants to have their entire personality and being erased and replaced with a shallow mockery, that's their prerogative, but I don't want that for myself and I don't think I should be made to feel like some kind of horrible sinner just because I don't.


This interpretation of heaven is entirely illogical. If God was so focused on free will in human beings and using it to choose him, what makes you think he would then take your personality, memory, and everythig else away? It's entirely illogical.

Which is basically like a slap in the face. Like I'm being punished for following the rules. God might as well come down and say "Fuck you, Jonathan. I hate you and everything you stand for." At least I would be able to comprehend that.


He has an even better way of saying "fuck you." Supposedly, it includes a lake of fire, but I haven't seen much evidence for that, but, hell, it's still more awesome than a mere "i hate you."

They sure make it out to be. For me, it was always "If you're not going to let me have a wife and children, then can I just die, please?


Nihilism is a dangerous place to be, man. You presumably would have all eternity to pull off what people mentioned in the bible have been said to be able to do: change God's mind. Contrary to your stories of heaven, there is much, much more evidence to suggest He would entertain the discussion.

See, it's basically yanking the rug out from under me. Like I'm being punished for caring about anything. What's the point of doing good if it all gets thrown in the trash, anyway?


So, the only point in being good is getting rewarded? Do you as for a piece of candy every time you take a shower?

Posted October 16th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak

Frankly, we can't all get what we want in life, regardless of heaven and hell. We don't know what heaven's actually like, so everything's pure conjecture, even it's very existance.

I would think that an omnipotent being that loves me could and would just make it right in the end.

And you took this seriously?

No, but it DID provoke the question.

I vaguely remember someone from GT dabbling in much, much more than just that. I remember spending hours, maybe even days, with this guy talking about astral projection, aliens, and a bunch of other occult things. I can't remember who it was, but i have this strange feeling it might've been you.

Nope. Pretty sure I never really cared about astral projection aside from mild intrigue at the concept. Same with the other stuff.

But, anyway, it sounds to me the problem is less about heaven or our interpretation of it, and more about about this obsession. Frankly, women are genetically predisposed to obsess over making babies, yet so many of them fail to do so, regardless of God. So, you're telling us that the only thing you ever want to exist for, that you value at all, is getting laid? If you don't mind me asking, have you ever actually gotten laid?

It's not the ONLY thing. But life feels utterly incomplete without it and while I always find it hard to put into words, the idea of being rendered unable to either do it or care about it just feels so wrong and terrifying. It just triggers something primal. And for that and SPECIFICALLY that to supposedly be left out of heaven makes me feel singled out and insulted. Supposedly, I wait until marriage to have sex and children, only to die or be raptured or whatever before I get the chance, and then no family or eros for me? Like I said, punished for following the rules. And it feels like such a shame. It would be like if Davinci ripped up the Mona Lisa.

And yes, I have gotten laid. I'll admit that it wasn't as great as I had hoped. Before that, however, I had a glimpse of how great it COULD be. The connectedness, pleasure, excitement, and love. And all part of a greater tapestry. A world of freedom, exploration, companionship, love, fun, pleasure. All without limits or constraints. A REAL, profound, indescribably beautiful heaven. Not the eternal insipid heroine trip that I constantly opine. It was the closest thing to a religious experience I ever had, and I wanted to tell the world, hoping it would resonate with someone, but I stopped because people just got confused or thought I was nuts.

The general idea is actually having a personal connection to someone who could grant any wish, should you be successful at convincing Him it's a good idea. Presumably, if this is your primary desire, you should be more focused on explaining to Him why it's so damn important.

Buuuuuut, the idea there is "just being in his presence" would be wonderful, and to hell with anything else "because he's God" which sounds completely meaningless. Though, now that I think about it, maybe that's just some self-righteous bullshit they say thinking they can trick God by feigning that they don't care about what he can do for them. I always thought about what God could do for me, too, sure. But I was never stupid or dishonest enough to think hiding it would do any good. And it's not like I'd just up and abandon God as soon as I got what I wanted. If someone loves me enough to give me good things, I'd be more than inclined to spend some time with them.

Yeah. Presumably you have 2 choices, as 2 places were presumably prepared. If you want a 3rd choice, prepare your arguments for the big cheese. I think it's a bit much making demands for something you failed to earn.

Well, under THEIR framework, it's too late at that point, and you're either chained in hell, or you're drugged up and unable to have independent thoughts or free will anymore. Just mindlessly sing, praise and be happy. Ugh.

This interpretation of heaven is entirely illogical. If God was so focused on free will in human beings and using it to choose him, what makes you think he would then take your personality, memory, and everythig else away? It's entirely illogical.

YES! EXACTLY! This is what I always felt, too, but had trouble putting it into words. Part of my torment was the cognitive dissonance, I guess.

He has an even better way of saying "fuck you." Supposedly, it includes a lake of fire, but I haven't seen much evidence for that, but, hell, it's still more awesome than a mere "i hate you."

That was ANOTHER part of it. Basically "Like the idea of being castrated, or be tortured forever!" I'm not exaggerating when I say that it felt suspiciously like a rape scenario.

Nihilism is a dangerous place to be, man. You presumably would have all eternity to pull off what people mentioned in the bible have been said to be able to do: change God's mind. Contrary to your stories of heaven, there is much, much more evidence to suggest He would entertain the discussion.

Not according to them "HURR DURR YOU'LL BE SO AWED BY GOD'S PRESENCE, YOU WON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE!" yet "GOD'S NOT YOUR PERSONAL GENIE", so, what? Lobotomy?

So, the only point in being good is getting rewarded? Do you as for a piece of candy every time you take a shower?

No, I mean why care about what happens to anything if it all gets burned up anyway? If "THE END TIMES ARE COMING!", then why try to fix the world? Why try to make a good world for others?

Posted October 16th by Cupola
Cupola
 

I would think that an omnipotent being that loves me could and would just make it right in the end.


And you know better than an omnipotent being? Logically, wouldn't this require omnipotence?

No, but it DID provoke the question.


I recommend not investing too much in a joke if the original writer didn't even take it seriously. Archie's character is intentionlly illogical and unversed in his own beliefs, which is the whole point: he shoots off his mouth about stuff he believes, but doesn't even attempt to understand. He talks about God, but doesn't even bother to try to understand God. An even better episode is when he gets trapped in his basement. I won't spoil the ending, but it's an absolute classic, as archie meets "God" and it is easily the funniest moment i've seen on that show.

It's not the ONLY thing. But life feels utterly incomplete without it and while I always find it hard to put into words, the idea of being rendered unable to either do it or care about it just feels so wrong and terrifying. It just triggers something primal. And for that and SPECIFICALLY that to supposedly be left out of heaven makes me feel singled out and insulted. Supposedly, I wait until marriage to have sex and children, only to die or be raptured or whatever before I get the chance, and then no family or eros for me? Like I said, punished for following the rules. And it feels like such a shame. It would be like if Davinci ripped up the Mona Lisa.


Before i continue, I really want to point out that Jesus was implied to have never had sex.

That said, have you considered why this in particular is your prime issue? Like, is it so inconceivable, given you probably weren't trying to make babies when you were 6? I really think there is an issue here that has nothing to do with religion. I highly recommend some soul searching on that.

And yes, I have gotten laid. I'll admit that it wasn't as great as I had hoped. Before that, however, I had a glimpse of how great it COULD be. The connectedness, pleasure, excitement, and love. And all part of a greater tapestry. A world of freedom, exploration, companionship, love, fun, pleasure. All without limits or constraints. A REAL, profound, indescribably beautiful heaven. Not the eternal insipid heroine trip that I constantly opine. It was the closest thing to a religious experience I ever had, and I wanted to tell the world, hoping it would resonate with someone, but I stopped because people just got confused or thought I was nuts.


So, in actuality, the imagination and unrealistic vision you had of sex is so idealistic that you'd prefer it over any other thing you've imagined. Fair enough, as everyone has their own vision of the ultimate reward. Unfortunately, i'm also obligated to inform you, that either you have a really pale outlook on everything else, or your vision of sex is so unrealistic, you'll never be able to experience what you envisioned, even without a god. Frankly, i've had some pretty amazing visions of what it could be, even after having it. The problem is, the ultimate, most idealistic visions are absolutely impossible, because it requires so many variables to be in line to be perfect. Frankly, you, yourself, are more likely to win the lottery every single time you play it, than for anyone in this universe to have the perfect sexual experience. Do yourself a favor and realize this.

Buuuuuut, the idea there is "just being in his presence" would be wonderful, and to hell with anything else "because he's God" which sounds completely meaningless. Though, now that I think about it, maybe that's just some self-righteous bullshit they say thinking they can trick God by feigning that they don't care about what he can do for them. I always thought about what God could do for me, too, sure. But I was never stupid or dishonest enough to think hiding it would do any good. And it's not like I'd just up and abandon God as soon as I got what I wanted. If someone loves me enough to give me good things, I'd be more than inclined to spend some time with them.


Less hiding shit, since these people also believe He's omnipotent. This whole Heaven is perfect bliss crap stems entirely from "What can God do for me?" mentality. So everyone has their vision of what perfect bliss would be, whether it's to have a mountain of candy to having the ability to rape women for all eternity (and somehow this doesn't ruin heaven for the people getting raped?). Frankly, if heaven were so simple, and people with such desires could get into heaven, all hell would break loose. It is incredibly illogical. We don't know what heaven is like, but the One who created every urge we've ever had and ever will have has His hands at the helm. I'm willing to bet, based on all i know about human perception, that anything He could come up with is logically better than anything you could come up with on your own, given He knows exactly what makes us tick. That said, He's not obligated to give it to us.

Well, under THEIR framework, it's too late at that point, and you're either chained in hell, or you're drugged up and unable to have independent thoughts or free will anymore. Just mindlessly sing, praise and be happy. Ugh.


You can't tell me this doesn't entertain you for at least 4 minutes and 4 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU

That was ANOTHER part of it. Basically "Like the idea of being castrated, or be tortured forever!" I'm not exaggerating when I say that it felt suspiciously like a rape scenario.


Which is also illogical. Maybe there's indescriminate sex. Maybe there's no sex. Maybe everyone gets a dedicated sex partner? Who knows?

Not according to them "HURR DURR YOU'LL BE SO AWED BY GOD'S PRESENCE, YOU WON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE!" yet "GOD'S NOT YOUR PERSONAL GENIE", so, what? Lobotomy?


I think the "you'll be so awed by god's presence" is overly romantic. Frankly, Abraham, Noah, and a few others were pretty close to God, yet still managed to disobey Him. But, no, He's certainly no one's personal genie. Otherwise, we're back to nihilism, except you get rewarded no matter what instead of nothing having a point since everything ends. It's just a different form of nihilism, and, honestly, i htink it's even more gross.

No, I mean why care about what happens to anything if it all gets burned up anyway? If "THE END TIMES ARE COMING!", then why try to fix the world? Why try to make a good world for others?


Keep heaven from being an exclusive club. Ever been part of an exclusive club of about 4 people? Kinda boring. Much more entertaining if it's a large club.

Posted October 16th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak

And you know better than an omnipotent being? Logically, wouldn't this require omnipotence?

Well, no. But the thing is, I also considered the possibility that he's not a loving being at all, or just doesn't care about making me happy without tamping with what makes me who I am.

I recommend not investing too much in a joke if the original writer didn't even take it seriously. Archie's character is intentionlly illogical and unversed in his own beliefs, which is the whole point: he shoots off his mouth about stuff he believes, but doesn't even attempt to understand. He talks about God, but doesn't even bother to try to understand God. An even better episode is when he gets trapped in his basement. I won't spoil the ending, but it's an absolute classic, as archie meets "God" and it is easily the funniest moment i've seen on that show.

Oh, I'm aware. I took it for the stupid Archie moment it was. But just because something is stupid, doesn't mean it can't provoke thought, right?

That said, have you considered why this in particular is your prime issue? Like, is it so inconceivable, given you probably weren't trying to make babies when you were 6?

No, but I did think about having my own kids back then. Though, it was usually a momentary, intermittent thought. Plus, when you grow up, your experiences become more rich and profound. You don't lose the ability to enjoy things in their most basic essence. For example, I may not take as much joy in those wooden Brio trains as I did back then, but that's only because I have access to better, more highly detailed ones. But they're still the same thing in essence. Plus, if I really insist, I can go back and do some of those things I might have missed out on.

I really think there is an issue here that has nothing to do with religion. I highly recommend some soul searching on that.

You're very probably right on that one. I was raised by a narcissistic/cluster B grandmother who emotionally abused me and manipulated me and told me my mom just had me for the welfare check (Check out my thread in the real life section for the full story). Plus, as I was growing up, I became fixated on cuddling with young women (What boy doesn't?). And it always just felt so right. It never really went away and the idea of never getting it in my life became incredibly depressing.

So, in actuality, the imagination and unrealistic vision you had of sex is so idealistic that you'd prefer it over any other thing you've imagined. Fair enough, as everyone has their own vision of the ultimate reward. Unfortunately, i'm also obligated to inform you, that either you have a really pale outlook on everything else, or your vision of sex is so unrealistic, you'll never be able to experience what you envisioned, even without a god.

Yeah, you're probably right. I've been chasing that feeling for 12 years now. I considered it a pivotal moment in my life. Though, I should clarify that it was more the emotional side of it that really impacted me. I just came upon it by accident by reading a fanfic. I still remember the date (as I wrote it down). November 26, 2005. It wasn't just the sex. It was the way the characters seemed to mature so beautifully in the story and just culminate in that. It just resulted in an amazing feeling like everything was going to be okay in the end.

Frankly, i've had some pretty amazing visions of what it could be, even after having it. The problem is, the ultimate, most idealistic visions are absolutely impossible, because it requires so many variables to be in line to be perfect. Frankly, you, yourself, are more likely to win the lottery every single time you play it, than for anyone in this universe to have the perfect sexual experience. Do yourself a favor and realize this.

Yeah, I know. I've adjusted my expectations since. Though, I still like and crave sex, even though it's not quite what I hoped for.

Less hiding shit, since these people also believe He's omnipotent.

Yeah, but it could be lying to themselves, too.

So everyone has their vision of what perfect bliss would be, whether it's to have a mountain of candy to having the ability to rape women for all eternity (and somehow this doesn't ruin heaven for the people getting raped?). Frankly, if heaven were so simple, and people with such desires could get into heaven, all hell would break loose. It is incredibly illogical.

See, I think the most logical thing would be "You can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else." Me personally, I would just like having a modest house in the suburbs, a nice, kind, cuddly wife, and having kids that I can watch grow up and have kids of their own. That, and being able to play and experiment, go out camping, sit in the middle of a field at dusk and hear the crickets chirp, hang out with friends, camp, eat great food, travel, do blacksmithing and other crafts. Basically, the stuff I can do on earth, but without the time or money constraints (Unless I wanted them as a challenge). But I digress. Yeah, if people are just avoiding being dicks to eachother just to get into heaven when they otherwise want to, those are people completely missing the point (I.E. The Christians who ask "BUT IF THERE'S NO GOD, WHY NOT KILL AND MURDER?")

We don't know what heaven is like, but the One who created every urge we've ever had and ever will have has His hands at the helm. I'm willing to bet, based on all i know about human perception, that anything He could come up with is logically better than anything you could come up with on your own, given He knows exactly what makes us tick. That said, He's not obligated to give it to us.

As long as it doesn't involve fundamentally changing my nature.

Which is also illogical. Maybe there's indescriminate sex. Maybe there's no sex. Maybe everyone gets a dedicated sex partner? Who knows?

Honestly, I think the whole "no sex in heaven" thing really stems more from people's hang ups and personal guilt about sex rather than any kind of divine revelation or scripture. It seems that the people who are so adamant about it get way too defensive and even hostile about it when you try to suggest otherwise. Like, shit dude, calm down. Why are you trying to make me feel bad about it? Can't you just let me have that?

I think the "you'll be so awed by god's presence" is overly romantic. Frankly, Abraham, Noah, and a few others were pretty close to God, yet still managed to disobey Him.

Not to mention Satan.

It's just a different form of nihilism, and, honestly, i htink it's even more gross.

My hang up about this when I was a Christian was partly because I saw it as nihilistic, too. "God's coming back and is going to destroy everything you love, so don't care about anything or you're a filthy idolator! >:("


Posted October 16th by Cupola
Cupola
 

Well, no. But the thing is, I also considered the possibility that he's not a loving being at all, or just doesn't care about making me happy without tamping with what makes me who I am.


Perhaps, but I imagine He wouldn't have to, if he designed us to begin with. Though, why develop a hell if he's willing to make everyone behave, anyway?

Oh, I'm aware. I took it for the stupid Archie moment it was. But just because something is stupid, doesn't mean it can't provoke thought, right?


It could, but it shouldn't. It was inane, which is why that's what the line was.

No, but I did think about having my own kids back then. Though, it was usually a momentary, intermittent thought. Plus, when you grow up, your experiences become more rich and profound. You don't lose the ability to enjoy things in their most basic essence. For example, I may not take as much joy in those wooden Brio trains as I did back then, but that's only because I have access to better, more highly detailed ones. But they're still the same thing in essence. Plus, if I really insist, I can go back and do some of those things I might have missed out on.


but would you?

You're very probably right on that one. I was raised by a narcissistic/cluster B grandmother who emotionally abused me and manipulated me and told me my mom just had me for the welfare check (Check out my thread in the real life section for the full story). Plus, as I was growing up, I became fixated on cuddling with young women (What boy doesn't?). And it always just felt so right. It never really went away and the idea of never getting it in my life became incredibly depressing.


So, you found comfort in it when things weren't so nice. This can make you feel you'll enjoy something more than you actually would. Or, perhaps, you actually end up with a greater fascination with it than you should. As such, i find it illogical that you would think that you would respond differently to something else. I'm sure it's hard to imagine, given that you've become so tight with this idea, but if it happened once, it can happen again.

Yeah, you're probably right. I've been chasing that feeling for 12 years now. I considered it a pivotal moment in my life. Though, I should clarify that it was more the emotional side of it that really impacted me. I just came upon it by accident by reading a fanfic. I still remember the date (as I wrote it down). November 26, 2005. It wasn't just the sex. It was the way the characters seemed to mature so beautifully in the story and just culminate in that. It just resulted in an amazing feeling like everything was going to be okay in the end.


Ah yes, the perfectly romantic love stories. I'm glad enough of my relationships have gone sour to wake me up from a similar lul of my senses. People here who remember me will vouch for my absolute stupidity in chasing after a figment of my imagination: that if I invested 100% into a relationship, that with the right person the relationship would be heaven on earth. I was way too idealistic, which lead to disappointment after disappointment until I finally woke the hell up. It's not to say that I don't feel that way anymore, but, rather, I understand that it was pure ignorance and look fondly upon my own innocence, despite it being so self-destructive. Just like how we like to look back fondly upon other silly moments we had as children thanks to our ignorance. Then, for some silly reason, we lie to our children to get them to have such innocence which then in turn burns them, too. That all said, i'm glad i grew up, and only wish i grew up sooner.

Yeah, I know. I've adjusted my expectations since. Though, I still like and crave sex, even though it's not quite what I hoped for.


Better than me, but that's a whole other story. XD

Yeah, but it could be lying to themselves, too.


Well, the logical explanations can be quite scary, so it wouldn't surprise me.

See, I think the most logical thing would be "You can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else." Me personally, I would just like having a modest house in the suburbs, a nice, kind, cuddly wife, and having kids that I can watch grow up and have kids of their own. That, and being able to play and experiment, go out camping, sit in the middle of a field at dusk and hear the crickets chirp, hang out with friends, camp, eat great food, travel, do blacksmithing and other crafts. Basically, the stuff I can do on earth, but without the time or money constraints (Unless I wanted them as a challenge).


I can't tell you exactly what it'll be like, but I assume if you don't like what actually gets presented to you, the other option is always available.

But I digress. Yeah, if people are just avoiding being dicks to eachother just to get into heaven when they otherwise want to, those are people completely missing the point (I.E. The Christians who ask "BUT IF THERE'S NO GOD, WHY NOT KILL AND MURDER?")


Nihilism is a bane on the existance of humans, especially when tied to hedonism.

As long as it doesn't involve fundamentally changing my nature.


We don't know.

Honestly, I think the whole "no sex in heaven" thing really stems more from people's hang ups and personal guilt about sex rather than any kind of divine revelation or scripture. It seems that the people who are so adamant about it get way too defensive and even hostile about it when you try to suggest otherwise. Like, shit dude, calm down. Why are you trying to make me feel bad about it? Can't you just let me have that?


Well, alot of people can't handle sex. It doesn't mean they're wrong, but i'm betting it has alot to do with their own self-control issues.

Not to mention Satan.


Actually, that's another one. Everyone sees Satan, Lucifer, The Adversary, etc, as the same being. I see no evidence of that, actually. Another fun idea is the "equal opposite" of God idea. Look, if good always beats evil, then there cannot be equal opposites. Moreover, why would there be 2 Gods, 1 good and 1 evil, yet somehow only one of them is all powerful? None of that really has any basis in the bible. It's like the 72 virgins thing with islam, they all believe it but it's not even there. Or perhaps "Beam me up, Scotty" yet Shatner never delivered that line. Then we have the Mandela Effect, which just shows that human beings will believe and even "remember" things that never actually happened. They'll go so far to defend these ideas that they'll argue that they came from an alternative universe.

My hang up about this when I was a Christian was partly because I saw it as nihilistic, too. "God's coming back and is going to destroy everything you love, so don't care about anything or you're a filthy idolator! >:("


Even with the "destroy all" prophecies, it should not be nihilistic. Presumably, some things must remain, otherwise everything really was all for naught and there is no point to heaven or hell, either. I buy that all that we know will be destroyed, but that doesn't mean that our acquired knowledge will also be destroyed. Instead, i presume our memory will remain with our souls, despite memory problems we have now (though it does bring up legitimate questions when mentioning alzheimers and such, but my answer to that is pretty complex, and most people wouldn't even be able to follow the beginnings of it, let alone the whole thing).

Posted October 16th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak

Pretty sure the bible explicitly states that there are. Have YOU read it?

where in the bible does it say in heaven their will be manisons and gold? im curious

Also to define God's appearance is impossible. Obviously he has gone through great lengths to conceal himself from us. In him and through faith in him we may enter God's presence with boldness as we go to heaven. Me personally, my first question to him will be which God are you, and why did you conceal yourself from us?

Edited October 16th by Brandy
Brandy

Rev 21:21, John 14:2

Posted October 16th by Cupola
Cupola
 

Ok, streets of gold, you said "apparently i can have streets and gold" which is not want the bible says.

Now, to the mansions..that is from the KJV, which i haven't read so i did not see that passage in my version, but what does Jesus mean, by mansions? Why would Jesus say such a common, even mundane, word to describe the location of our heavenly future? The only answer to this is that it is a misinterpertation or improperly translated . This is not something Jesus would say.

Edited October 16th by Brandy
Brandy

Oh great even more textwalls.

I should probably put a disclaimer before this post that I probably don't obsess this nearly as much as you.

I committed the unforgivable sin according to multiple books in the bible (yes all new testament) so obviously I don't always have the best feelings and outlook on Christianity anyway and when I'm forced to encounter Christian surroundings (quite a bit), and yet I still can appreciate some aspects of Christianity certainly. But unlike you it feels as if I simply can't go back rather than it would be depressing to. It's more fearful because of the uncertainty of the afterlife has always been one of my greatest fears. But at the same time, I still kind of doubt I even should go back because there are legitimate concerns to be had about this "God" and things that really just don't add up. However, I don't consider myself atheist because I'm very open to the idea of deities existing. Some things are specific, but are rather complicated and it would probably be easier to just call me an agnostic leaning theist.

And actually questioning "God"'s intentions and power/authority in actuality (among other things) is actually part of how I renounced the faith in the first place. And, heaven DOES sound rather boring (although not for the same reasons you think it is), but if you don't care for being in "God"'s presence supposedly that's why hell is for you which is dumb obviously but I'm sure I don't need to explain that to you.

I have quite a bit of a story I could tell about my time as a Christian and exactly what led me to leave the faith, but I probably shouldn't clog up the thread with it. It's very complicated and strange. Also there's a good chance I'd be called schizo even though the professionals already believe there is no reason to believe I am.

This is probably why Gnosticism has been so interesting to me.

Edited October 16th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

At least if I knew for sure there was no sex or eros or procreation in heaven


Why act as though there's a heaven in the first place?

Posted October 16th by nullfather
nullfather

Why act as though there's a heaven in the first place?

Why act as though you can know for sure there won't be a "heaven"?

Posted October 16th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

Why act as though you can know for sure there won't be a "heaven"?


I don't and do not recommend others to. I'm just asking where he's getting the fundamental posits leading to his big ordeal of a question.

Posted October 16th by nullfather
nullfather

That's understandable then.

Posted October 16th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

Me personally, my first question to him will be which God are you, and why did you conceal yourself from us?


The God of judeo-christian origin is explained easily now: independence. It's the same reason why evil often wins in this world: independence. The attribute most valued by God, apparently, is free will. If He's always up our bottoms, how would we ever have independence and free will?

Now, to the mansions..that is from the KJV, which i haven't read so i did not see that passage in my version, but what does Jesus mean, by mansions? Why would Jesus say such a common, even mundane, word to describe the location of our heavenly future? The only answer to this is that it is a misinterpertation or improperly translated . This is not something Jesus would say.


Revelations, where pretty much everything, if not everything, is about as symbolic as the wildest dream you've ever had. Traditionally in the bible, dreams are vivid and symbolic.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21&version=KJV
I committed the unforgivable sin according to multiple books in the bible (yes all new testament) so obviously I don't always have the best feelings and outlook on Christianity anyway and when I'm forced to encounter Christian surroundings (quite a bit), and yet I still can appreciate some aspects of Christianity certainly. But unlike you it feels as if I simply can't go back rather than it would be depressing to. It's more fearful because of the uncertainty of the afterlife has always been one of my greatest fears. But at the same time, I still kind of doubt I even should go back because there are legitimate concerns to be had about this "God" and things that really just don't add up. However, I don't consider myself atheist because I'm very open to the idea of deities existing. Some things are specific, but are rather complicated and it would probably be easier to just call me an agnostic leaning theist.


I've asked myself many times if i could be screwed, regardless. I came to the conclusion that even if I were eternally damned to Hell, even if all i did was for naught, that that still doesn't change my own devotion. Seems silly to others, as one would expect anyone who is damned to be hedonistic, but I've concluded that not everything is about me.

And actually questioning "God"'s intentions and power/authority in actuality (among other things) is actually part of how I renounced the faith in the first place.


I'm very curious why you felt the need to renounce it, rather than simply moving away from it.

I have quite a bit of a story I could tell about my time as a Christian and exactly what led me to leave the faith, but I probably shouldn't clog up the thread with it. It's very complicated and strange. Also there's a good chance I'd be called schizo even though the professionals already believe there is no reason to believe I am.


So, would it be safe to say it had less to do with the religion and more to do with yourself and/or life experiences?

I don't and do not recommend others to. I'm just asking where he's getting the fundamental posits leading to his big ordeal of a question.


You know how i pointed out in another thread that someone who's hidden some trauma can respond negatively and harbor weird ideas as a coping mechanism? We're about a hop, skip and a jump from him coming right out and saying that. I think he mentally needs to focus on sex and human connection, so whenever he'd hear things as a young person that flies counter to this, despite otherwise liking christianity (which he admits above), this sets him into conflict: he believes he can't have what he consideres the most beautiful aspect of human beings. It stands to reason then, he actually is afraid of christianity (due to trauma that happened to him when younger) or he has used his imagination of human connection to get through some rough times. Maybe both. I'm willing to bet it's the latter, but there might be some truth to the former, but it's probably not the main issue, since he admits he actually wants to give christianity a shot.

Posted October 16th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak

I know God wants us to be independent, but why does he need to conceal himself? I really want to know when i die, am defintly going to ask him.

Posted October 16th by Brandy
Brandy

We can't be independent if we know He's there. Instead of trying to use science to solve the problems, we'll keep harassing Him for the answers.

Posted October 16th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak

even if all i did was for naught, that that still doesn't change my own devotion.

That's a sentiment but me personally I see no reason to remain devoted, especially if it comes to hell.

So, would it be safe to say it had less to do with the religion and more to do with yourself and/or life experiences?

Well first of all, it's a really complicated relationship. Don't mistake me for hating Christianity or a lot of it's aspects.

But it has to do with both. The religion because of how it effected my life, those around me and my issues with it. It is rather undeniable that it hard a hand in why things ended up the way they did. I don't BLAME the religion mind you, but it had a hand in it. Cause and effect. Now aside from what inherently has to do with the religion I can't really explain how it ties together without probably getting into a huge rant that I really don't want to get into, but I will say that my experiences and the religion intertwined quite a bit spiritually. And I mean spiritually more literally than some people mean it. Think of it this way, if we are to believe in "Jesus" as a spiritual entity and "God" as a spiritual entity and they seem to align quite a bit with the bible, isn't it a bit had to separate them from the religion even if some of their traits also appear to go against the bible? Really though, it hasn't been about the religion for a while now. With the latter issue it's more like, Christianity just has concepts I sometimes use to express something that goes deeper in a really vague way if that makes sense.

To give an example of what I mean, "God" has literally spoken to me before. I will admit though. It's always possible that I could be wrong about some things.

Seems silly to others, as one would expect anyone who is damned to be hedonistic, but I've concluded that not everything is about me.

I legit don't mean this in an offensive way but: no shit. It may be less obvious if you're the kind of person who sees the world in black and white and actually believe that "God" has all the power and anything not of "God" is purely evil, but that's not how things work.

I'm very curious why you felt the need to renounce it, rather than simply moving away from it.

It's... about the same thing? It's just you make it clear that you are no longer one. Because, whether you believe it or not people do look at what you say, and they formulate impressions and opinions on you based on what you say. Thus, if it becomes clear that you were religious it's very likely that people noticed at SOME point. I no longer wanted it to be a part of my identity.

Edited October 16th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

That's a sentiment but me personally I see no reason to remain devoted, especially if it comes to hell.


To me there's a much more valuable part of the religion: it's effective. Stefan Molyneux, who clearly has a hatred for Christianity itself, has gone out of his way to try to come up with entirely secular reasons for it. Even he backpeddles alot on his hatred of christianity, even though he can't let it go. Free book called "Universally Preferable Behavior." I recommend looking into it, regardless of religion. Then come back and review this.

But it has to do with both. The religion because of how it effected my life, those around me and my issues with it. It is rather undeniable that it had a hand in why things ended up the way they did. I don't BLAME the religion mind you, but it had a hand in it. Cause and effect. Now aside from what inherently has to do with the religion I can't really explain how it ties together without probably getting into a huge rant that I really don't want to get into, but I will say that my experiences and the religion intertwined quite a bit spiritually. And I mean spiritually more literally than some people mean it. Think of it this way, if we are to believe in "Jesus" as a spiritual entity and "God" as a spiritual entity and they seem to align quite a bit with the bible quite a bit, isn't it a bit had to separate them from the religion even if some of their traits also appear to go against the bible? Really though, it hasn't been about the religion for a while now. With the latter issue it's more like, Christianity just has concepts I sometimes use to express something that goes deeper in a really vague way if that makes sense.


There's alot to be said about the authenticity of the bible, as well. It doesn't shake my faith, but i know it does others, to admit the bible has conflicts, errors, and a ton of other not so great things. But, the issue is, we see God as perfect, man as imperfect, yet somehow assume that man could write down the perfection that God expected them to? If all these biblical characters could disobey God, what about authors who didn't have a close relationship to Him first hand who are now writing about Him? My main argument against Stefan's argument about God (one cannot be both omnipotent and omniscient), my answer is to question what we actually know about not only God, but also our universe that to which we constrain God, the creator of the rules we judge His capabilities by. It seems absolutely illogical. I can understand why atheists see modern christians as illogical: we are. The biggest issue i have is, usually they are worse, so it goes back to the Jesus quote of taking a piece of wood dust out of someone's eye when they have a cross-beam in their own. For some reason, we cannot be logical about the concept of God, whether we're trying to suggest He exists or not.

To give an example of what I mean, "God" has literally spoken to me before. I will admit though. It's always possible that I could be wrong about some things.


This, here, is interesting.

I legit don't meant this in an offensive way but: no shit. It may be less obvious if you're the kind of person who sees the world in black and white and actually believe that "God" has all the power and anything not of God is purely evil, but that's not how things work.


Well, first there is also the illogical conclusion that something can be not of God. Sure, there are things that God didn't cause, but unless God secretly gave us the power to create, all is from God, even that which is not. That which is "not of God" most likely, actually, meant to be that which actually is of God, but has been re-appropriated outside of it's intended purpose (which is why so many people probably get butthurt about masturbaition, but totally don't understand why it might actually be bad, because, frankly, people tend to condemn or support something without even trying to understand why they do, let alone why they should or should not).

It's... about the same thing? It's just you make it clear that you are no longer one. Because, whether you believe it or not people do look at what you say, and they formulate impressions opinions on you based on what you say. Thus, if it becomes clear that you were religious it's very likely that people noticed at SOME point. I no longer wanted it to be a part of my identity.


Fair enough. You seem to imply you did more than "eh, i don't but it, anymore." That's where i'm curious.

Posted October 16th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak

I honestly have no idea what Cupola is talking about. That has never been any description I have ever heard about heaven. I think it's just more negative spin that atheists are trying to put on religion in order to rationalize bias.

Posted October 19th by GC/MS
GC/MS
 

If it is, then christians are helping the atheists. Everyone likes to say what they think heaven is,, and some people buy it as absolute truth, when all it is is conjecture.

Posted October 19th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak

You're right. It is all unproven.

So why do atheists try to rationalize their bias by putting a negative spin on something that gives people hope? If the truth is that there is no afterlife, who are atheists to rain on everybody's parade? What's wrong with telling ourselves there is one? It lessens the bleakness of the inevitable. Is everybody truly better off with somebody giving them an in-your-face reality check? Just sounds like sadism to me.

Posted October 19th by GC/MS
GC/MS
 

So why do atheists try to rationalize their bias by putting a negative spin on something that gives people hope?


I'm developing a working theory, right now. It involves the revival of an old, dead religion based heavily on science and numbers. Worst part is, i'm seeing people whom follow other religions falling into it. So far, the evidence for the religion may, actually, be real and legitimate, but, the best part, it just creates an opportunity for other religions (like Christianity) to be right. Even better, it has the potential of bringing back just about every other religion in humanity. Conspiracy theorists will easily latch onto this and say that we could be looking at demon worship or something like that (especially at CERN), which might be the case, but I don't see enough evidence for that (which is also kinda central to the theory: if they revealed themselves, they loose all ground).

Another interesting point is, this religion likely does include a heaven, but everyone goes, regardless of what they do or believe.

If the truth is that there is no afterlife, who are atheists to rain on everybody's parade?


That's the least of their concerns.

What's wrong with telling ourselves there is one?


Nothing. Even the most hardcore leftist atheists are OK with it, as long as you don't believe a major religion. (Conservative atheists, which are rare, generally don't seem to care at all.)

It lessens the bleakness of the inevitable. Is everybody truly better off with somebody giving them an in-your-face reality check?


Leftist atheists are quite content with nihilism, and I would even go as far as saying hedonism (which is necessary, because nihilism without hedonism is reason to commit suicide).

Just sounds like sadism to me.


Or establishing your religion.

Posted October 20th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
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