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Mind you, I don't actually think it will accomplish anything other than being told the same things I've already gotten more than sick of hearing but my depression and anhedonia are getting worse every day and my normal coping mechanisms are sort of falling apart.

Sir, just suppose... suppose if I had a cat, what would you do with Frankenstein?
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There are 64 Replies

I hope you get what you need from whatever source you can.

Posted October 12th by nullfather
nullfather
 

Thanks.

Posted October 12th by tnu
tnu

It can't hurt. It's worth trying to keep an open mind about, but also being conscientious of perceived quality. Do some vetting when looking for a therapist, and if you don't like them, don't keep going to them. But keep looking. A good therapist can be a little tough to find, but can make a world of difference.

Posted October 12th by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Of course if they turn out to jsut tell me the same thigns I've heard a billion and one times that's hwen I'll probably bail. I"m not there so they can get me to "move on" so to speak.

Posted October 12th by tnu
tnu

Well, one more thing to keep in mind is that whatever you need to do to get yourself sorted, it'll take time.

Posted October 12th by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

So how long and how many times do I have to actually do this again before I can just decide it doesn't work?

Posted October 12th by tnu
tnu

Therapists are a dime a dozen. Good therapists are rare. This is why i always offer to help people, despite my lack of qualifications. I happen to understand why most therapists suck (it's complicated, really), and not just because I needed one in the past, myself. I've never met a good one, though i heard they're out there. Personally, i managed self-therapy, but that is hard. If you'd like, give me a shot. What's the worst i could do?

Posted October 12th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

I"m not sure I really know you.

Posted October 12th by tnu
tnu

That's kind of the point. People whom you know haven't been able to help you. You're seeking a professional stranger to help you, where the term "professional" just may be a crutch. The simplest answer of why that is, is that they need patients to make money. Therapy is all about helping you face the painful bits by seeing another perspective on them, which you can't really do without facing the painful bits. Facing the painful bits, especially if you have to spend alot of time on them, scares away customers. I have the advantage of: frankly, i don't know you, so i don't care if you give up on me and go try a professional.

Posted October 12th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

I'll think about it. at least It wouldn't cost me anything. I'm already fairly convicned it's jsut a waste of money.

Posted October 12th by tnu
tnu

at least It wouldn't cost me anything. I'm already fairly convicned it's jsut a waste of money.


There are very affordable therapy solutions nowadays. There's a site called Better Help where you can have online counseling with degree-holding counselors and psychologists for as low as $35 a week. Really accessible, really cheap.

Posted October 12th by nullfather
nullfather
 

If you were to get a good enough therapist, it wouldn't be a waste, but that''s the issue. If it wasn't for the fact that a few people on youtube i respect (with very high IQs) have vouched for their own therapists, I would say professionals just can't get the job done. However, they are proof that it can be done by a professional. I could send you all kinds of goodies that explains how the process works and why it does. The simplified version is that issues are like muscle knots: they feed themselves and the more you protect them, the larger they get.

Posted October 12th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

from what i've witnessed, giving up on professional therapists, quitting your medication and listening to the advice of well-meaning but arrogant strangers is a great way to end up with your brains splattered across a hotel room wall

Posted October 12th by poptart!
poptart!
 

from what i've witnessed, giving up on professional therapists, quitting your medication and listening to the advice of well-meaning but arrogant strangers is a great way to end up with your brains splattered across a hotel room wall


I've been doing this longer than i can remember, and have yet to loose someone to suicide. But that's easy to say, since we innately do this. The professional is someone who was taught and certified in the art. But, i haven't yet once suggested that he give up on professional therapists, but, rather, give something different a shot. And never have I suggested the cessation of medication.

Posted October 12th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

There are very affordable therapy solutions nowadays. There's a site called Better Help where you can have online counseling with degree-holding counselors and psychologists for as low as $35 a week. Really accessible, really cheap.


Subjective theory of value dictates that htat is more expensive than the value of the service provided.

Posted October 12th by tnu
tnu

Subjective theory of value dictates that htat is more expensive than the value of the service provided.


1. As low as $35 a week. I don't know the specifics of what services they offer for what fee.

2. The subjective theory of value dictates that the value of a good (or, in this case, a service) is determined by the importance that an individual places on it for the achievement of their desired ends. If it does what you need, how worried are you about how they're gaming it from the other side? Your "you get what you pay for" attitude is curiously pessimistic.

Edited Friday by nullfather
nullfather
 

Your "you get what you pay for" attitude is curiously pessimistic.


No, he has the pessimistic opinion that no matter how much he spends it won't be worth it, which is different, and less curious. I would say it's justified, even if it's wrong.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

If you're not going to take the advice they give you then you're going to go all the way down into depression. Which is actually a very renewing life-changing experience.

Posted Friday by Xhin
Xhin
 

If you're not going to take the advice they give you then you're going to go all the way down into depression. Which is actually a very renewing life-changing experience.


Almost the same as therapy, if you can take it without going nihilist (nihilism is where the brain blowing comes into play). Eventually as you sink into it, you'll be forced to face it and learn to cope with it. If you hide it from yourself, you'll just end up back where you started. If you face all your problems, well, then you just committed to self-therapy.

I must point out, though, that "facing your problems" tends to fly around alot, but most people don't really know what that means, and it really does vary per situation, and it's hardly intuitive if you're personally in that situation.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

Which is actually a very renewing life-changing experience.


Only if you can get back out of it...

Posted Friday by Moonray
Moonray
 

Only if you can get back out of it...


Everyone does, one way or another. Either you fix your pain, hide from your pain (going back to square one, which is what most people do) to wait until it reappears again, or end your own life.

The latter comes from nihilism. Nihilism without hedonism leads to suicide. Depression is the antonym of hedonism. This is why, even the most avid nihilists turn around and say "everybody's lives matter" when someone goes to the dark side of nihilism.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

I second Jet's advice. Try therapy, stay open-minded, try not to get discouraged, and try to be patient. If you go in thinking, "this is stupid," you'll probably leave thinking the same.

Posted Friday by Ophelia
Ophelia

Either you fix your pain, hide from your pain (going back to square one, which is what most people do) to wait until it reappears again, or end your own life.


You and I have very different opinions on getting back out of depression... As I only consider that first one to be such. The 2nd is just staying in it & pretending you don't have an issue and the third one is not even coming back at all.

Edited Friday by Moonray
Moonray
 

I second Jet's advice. Try therapy, stay open-minded, try not to get discouraged, and try to be patient. If you go in thinking, "this is stupid," you'll probably leave thinking the same.


It is stupid though. Still not convinced it's going to be anything but paying someone to tell me everything I've already heard.

No, he has the pessimistic opinion that no matter how much he spends it won't be worth it, which is different, and less curious. I would say it's justified, even if it's wrong.


pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

Edited Friday by tnu
tnu

You and I have very different opinions on getting back out of depression... As I only consider that first one to be such. The 2nd is just staying in it & pretending you don't have an issue and the third one is not even coming back at all.


The distinction is that with the second one, once it's hidden, you're only in depression when you remember it or have your angry irrational outbursts. The problem remains, but you can be happy with the mentality of "out of sight, out of mind." I do consider the second and third to be negative and overall net loss.

It is stupid though. Still not convinced it's going to be anything but paying someone to tell me everything I've already heard.


I like how you have addressed this issue: what you want is to hear something you haven't already heard, right? Knowing this, you're really halfway there. If at all anything, so get so desperate to hear something new that you accept anything as fact, as that's dangerous, especially since we don't know how likely it is to be a lie.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

It is stupid though. Still not convinced it's going to be anything but paying someone to tell me everything I've already heard.

I understand, honestly, and on a personal level. I think maybe you should have a little faith. If you go in this discouraged, your experience will just be confirmatory, and you'll be even more put off -- which will make it more difficult for you to cope with or without therapy (or through self-therapy).

If you're really worried about efficacy, you could look at a bunch of studies. Also, you could try cognitive behavioral therapy, which has sort of a more practical focus. Do remember that, like Jet said, these things take time -- and they take effort, too.

Posted Friday by Ophelia
Ophelia

If nothing else, I vouch for Kohlrak therapy. Lol.

Posted Friday by Ophelia
Ophelia

Do remember that, like Jet said, these things take time -- and they take effort, too.


This is the one that drives me nuts. People who want therapy, or or to learn something, and think that it'll work with little effort. I think part of this has to do with the fact that the therapist or educator is being paid, too. I think the professionals would have an easier time if they weren't paid (and not just for the reasons stated in this post). That said, the pay is necessary, or there'd be a huge shortage, and i'm not sure that the ones left over would be of the good caliber.

If nothing else, I vouch for Kohlrak therapy. Lol.


Good to know i didn't develop a bad reputation from the tougher cases back then.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

Of all the things that ended up helping me in some regard, the multiple therapists I went through did not no matter the attitude I went in with or how much I tried to open up. I think this is partially because some of my problems I already know in the back of my mind, and I know there are either no answers to them or the answers are far too complicated so I just have to deal with it. Also some of the things that cause me distress and thus further depression are quite literally out of my control and not things they can help with. Maybe it's similar for you?



Edited Friday by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

Of all the things that ended up helping me in some regard, the multiple therapists I went through did not no matter the attitude I went in with or how much I tried to open up. I think this is partially because some of my problems I already know in the back of my mind, and I know there are either no answers to them or the answers are far too complicated so I just have to deal with it. Also some of the things that cause me distress and thus further depression are quite literally out of my control and not things they can help with. Maybe it's similar for you?


Sorry for using you like this, but i feel i must.

Either you fix your pain, hide from your pain (going back to square one, which is what most people do) to wait until it reappears again, or end your own life.


Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

Why did you feel inclined?

Posted Friday by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

If I feel i'm right, and evidence walks right in and announces itself, someone might not notice, even if it's a pink elephant.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

Of all the things that ended up helping me in some regard, the multiple therapists I went through did not no matter the attitude I went in with or how much I tried to open up. I think this is partially because some of my problems I already know in the back of my mind, and I know there are either no answers to them or the answers are far too complicated so I just have to deal with it. Also some of the things that cause me distress and thus further depression are quite literally out of my control and not things they can help with. Maybe it's similar for you?


It is actually almost exactly.

Posted Friday by tnu
tnu

Of all the things that ended up helping me in some regard, the multiple therapists I went through did not no matter the attitude I went in with or how much I tried to open up. I think this is partially because some of my problems I already know in the back of my mind, and I know there are either no answers to them or the answers are far too complicated so I just have to deal with it. Also some of the things that cause me distress and thus further depression are quite literally out of my control and not things they can help with. Maybe it's similar for you?


It is actually almost exactly.


As i suspected from post one. So let me take another guess. The reason you're seeking help is because your attempts to put the problems in the back of your mind are thwarted by things and people not intending to bring it back. And, moreover, this makes you angry or sad, and, as a result, your quick reaction to this influences how well you deal with other people, which in turn influences the progression of your life in general. I'm half asleep, but am i right?

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

Yeaht hat seems fairly close.

Posted Friday by tnu
tnu

So, then, basically, it stands to reason that since my predictions were accurate, i've seen it enough times. And if i say that i've fixed it enough times, i then know how to solve it, right?

The answer, honestly, is exactly as i stated: therapy. The idea of therapy, in a nutshell, is to address this issue:

because some of my problems I already know in the back of my mind, and I know there are either no answers to them or the answers are far too complicated so I just have to deal with it


This is why i say we innately do this. Honestly, I believe your chances of success are a function of IQ (most likely to have the intelligence to come up with the answer), with some kind of subtraction or division based on one's own problems (since high IQ people can still have their own biases from their own problems that prevent them from coming up with the answer).

If nothing else, at least take this much from me.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

Oh, and incase you're then wondering about this

Also some of the things that cause me distress and thus further depression are quite literally out of my control and not things they can help with.


Usually that tells me there's an underlying issue that you're less aware of, and merely need it (re-)revealed to you again, so you can then apply therapy. I believe this is what people usually think about when talking about therapy, because this is the part where you need to listen the most, to "dig" for the issues.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

I know you may have been doing this mostly for tnu, but it seems like it's getting a little too close to me especially when you're implicating because of those traits that I'm the sort that needs therapy when really I'm pretty sure I don't and that it can't solve my problems, only I can. Thus, regardless I'm treating this as if you are talking to me personally just in case.

You seem to be taking my quotes and using them as if I have a particular problem currently in the first place. I'm fine. I was talking about things in life that affect you due to the world around you and there is literally nothing you can do about it except change how you deal with it internally, which I do (That doesn't mean some of these things couldn't eventually actually ruin my life though, heh).

Honestly, I believe your chances of success are a function of IQ (most likely to have the intelligence to come up with the answer), with some kind of subtraction or division based on one's own problems (since high IQ people can still have their own biases from their own problems that prevent them from coming up with the answer).

You seem to assume there is an answer to every problem in the first place. All I was saying is that I know the problems, and I know what I can and can't do them, thus I simply learned to deal with it where I can't do anything about it. when I said "and I know there are either no answers to them or the answers are far too complicated" it was about dealing with it externally, not internally. As in, making a change in the world around you rather than yourself, and often there is very little that can effectively be done in regards to my problems, so as I said I learn to deal with it better internally.

PS iq's don't matter quite as much as you think they do. Especially if they come from internet tests or similar. Still doesn't matter terribly much though.

Usually that tells me there's an underlying issue that you're less aware of, and merely need it (re-)revealed to you again, so you can then apply therapy.

I'm aware enough of my issues, but that was through introspection. Therapists were usually less than helpful because they failed to truly understand me I guess.

Edited Friday by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

problem is whenever I even waste the money on it I just end up clamming up and not talking about anything to the therapist because I'm just not comfortable there.

Posted Friday by tnu
tnu

Talk more then. Force it if you have to, but you have to at least open up. I don't have as much faith in therapists as most people but it could work for you. But ya, if you're wasting money and you keep opening up for long periods of time and no progress seems to be made at all, then it's probably safe to move on and try something else.

Have you ever been on any medication? If so did you try multiple? I'd look into that first.

Posted Friday by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

I take medicaiton all the time but that's jsut the chemical issue. it's all atificial.

Posted Friday by tnu
tnu

Maybe you need something more in your life. Friends, love, specific hobbies? Who can say. But despite how petty people may think of these things, they can matter a lot.

Posted Friday by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

If I'm susceptable I'd consider hypnosis.

Posted Friday by tnu
tnu

i believe it is always wise to seek help from professionals even when you feel hopeless. in retrospect cbt really turned my life around. tnu, i do wish you the best and hope that you give therapy another shot. you deserve respite from your suffering. i hope you will be able to find it

Posted Friday by susurrous
susurrous
 

If I'm susceptable I'd consider hypnosis.

If you're that convinced it's what you need. I've probably willfully inflicted worse "mindbreaks" if you will on myself in the past. But it could be entirely different. Look into it if you feel confident that it could work and you're fine with it.

Therapy isn't a bad idea if you're not wasting time and money you need though.

Posted Friday by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

I know you may have been doing this mostly for tnu, but it seems like it's getting a little too close to me especially when you're implicating because of those traits that I'm the sort that needs therapy when really I'm pretty sure I don't and that it can't solve my problems, only I can. Thus, regardless I'm treating this as if you are talking to me personally just in case.

You seem to be taking my quotes and using them as if I have a particular problem currently in the first place. I'm fine. I was talking about things in life that affect you due to the world around you and there is literally nothing you can do about it except change how you deal with it internally, which I do (That doesn't mean some of these things couldn't eventually actually ruin my life though, heh).


Aside from the fact that i was aware i was putting you in a bad spot, i wasn't particularly concerned about you at all. You can't help those who won't help themselves. So, as long as you were fitting the bill, sure. The need for therapy comes in when you are unable to do these things naturally, on your own. If you feel you don't need it, either you really don't, or you do and are in denial, but since you aren't actively looking for help, it won't do any good to suggest it. I don't know your case. I just know that I got something that looks and quacks like a duck, and i'm trying to do a lecture on ducks. Quack?

You seem to assume there is an answer to every problem in the first place.


I have a hard time finding problems that I can't find an answer, too. The biggest problem I have when doing this is, sometimes the answer is also painful and leads to another problem, and people don't like admitting that. Or, the answer is just plain painful and is the root cause, and acceptance of that answer is the only thing they can hope for for closure.

All I was saying is that I know the problems, and I know what I can and can't do them, thus I simply learned to deal with it where I can't do anything about it. when I said "and I know there are either no answers to them or the answers are far too complicated" it was about dealing with it externally, not internally. As in, making a change in the world around you rather than yourself, and often there is very little that can effectively be done in regards to my problems, so as I said I learn to deal with it better internally.


Something weird i've noticed about people is that if they cannot control it, they usually don't care. Oftentimes, people won't care if they could do something about it. So when someone cares about something they cannot control, I look at it as an underlying issue. The results have even surprised me.

PS iq's don't matter quite as much as you think they do. Especially if they come from internet tests or similar. Still doesn't matter terribly much though.


I used to think so, too, but i learned over time that they matter. I still argue with people of similar IQ as I over the actual cause of OK, since it does correlate with race (i take a stance of nurture, while science seems to point at nature [most of my arguments on the origin of human "conditions" delve down to this, and i think the most fun one in this topic is homosexuality]).

I'm aware enough of my issues, but that was through introspection. Therapists were usually less than helpful because they failed to truly understand me I guess.


You do realize that the goal of the therapist is to have you searching yourself, right? Alot of times i know what's going wrong in someone, but I can't tell them, because they need to come to the conclusion themselves, or they won't realize it (for example, admitting and realizing are different in the same way as hearing and listening). But, you're probably talking about when you've left the therapist and took the time to think things over on your own.

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problem is whenever I even waste the money on it I just end up clamming up and not talking about anything to the therapist because I'm just not comfortable there.


Their job is to get you to open up, too. The idea is, if you willingly go on your own, you want to open up. If other people are trying to force you to go, you're less likely to open up. If you really, really want to open up, but don't, that tells me they're exactly what you need. Do you have trouble trusting them?

I take medicaiton all the time but that's jsut the chemical issue. it's all atificial.


It's better than nothing, but treating the symptoms without treating the problem leads to dependance. So, to me, you're clearly aware of some degree what needs done.

If I'm susceptable I'd consider hypnosis.


Everyone is, but it's not as effective as you'd think, according to studies. And, depending on the one doing the hypnosis, you may find it just as artificial as medicine. If they're good, and they turn it into therapy by taking advantage of the trance state to make you open up, then it could be helpful, but they'll be leading you alot more, which makes me question how effective it'd be, especially when what they conclude depends on how much information you do or do not give. With open therapy, you can tell the person that their conclusion is wrong, then tell them the important information they're missing, which will then prompt them to do so again with the right information, and that cycle would continue until it's accurate. As such, if you try hypnosis with anyone other than a professional you trust, you are indeed putting yourself in danger. It might be helpful in your case, just for the sake of opening you up, but beware.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

Something weird i've noticed about people is that if they cannot control it, they usually don't care. Oftentimes, people won't care if they could do something about it. So when someone cares about something they cannot control, I look at it as an underlying issue. The results have even surprised me.

Man I'm gonna be honest with you, you kinda reek of standard armchair psychologist based on this and other things you've said here simply because I don't think caring is indicative of an issue unto itself but anyway. I will say there is often *something* you can do about external problems no matter the "severity", however when "severe", one might find themselves rotting away for years in a place cutoff from society, or simply dead if you catch my drift. And really that same logic applies to quite a bit of situations regardless. You can not force your will onto the outside world a lot of times, without becoming a problem yourself. Which is why we've developed this whole thing of coping with things that seem wrong, rather than using force to right the wrong.

I used to think so, too, but i learned over time that they matter.

By that logic I'm on the same level as a fucking engineer. I don't think I should be revered as anywhere close to an engineer. That doesn't mean I don't value my own opinions, but I think that seems rather ridiculous.

You do realize that the goal of the therapist is to have you searching yourself, right?

Ya. They just weren't really helpful.

But, you're probably talking about when you've left the therapist and took the time to think things over on your own.

Not really, in fact a lot of times it was when I was out of therapy entirely.

Edited Friday by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

Man I'm gonna be honest with you, you kinda reek of standard armchair psychologist based on this and other things you've said here simply because I don't think caring is indicative of an issue unto itself but anyway. I will say there is often *something* you can do about external problems no matter the "severity", however when "severe", one might find themselves rotting away for years in a place cutoff from society, or simply dead if you catch my drift. And really that same logic applies to quite a bit of situations regardless. You can not force your will onto the outside world a lot of times, without becoming a problem yourself. Which is why we've developed this whole thing of coping with things that seem wrong, rather than using force to right the wrong.


If you feel the need to force your will upon others, you are the one with the problem, and it's very much internal. Psychologists note that it never truly works anyway, which is why it's important that you admit that you need help before it is given. Pllus, alot of people can solve their problems on their own, too. The question of whether or not you have a problem is whether or not it influences your life. If you have an external threat, meet force with force, or, get out of the way and let the force hurt itself.

By that logic I'm on the same level as a fucking engineer. I don't think I should be revered as anywhere close to an engineer. That doesn't mean I don't value my own opinions, but I think that seems rather ridiculous.


Incorrect: IQ is potential, not an end result. Other factors go into it, too. I used to be bitter about being in my situation with my IQ, but then I heard Jordan Peterson explain that fact, and that high IQ people are usually resentful regardless, and came to terms with my own lot. I'm in an absolutely terrible situation, in life, but there's little i can do about it without putting myself into another terrible position. To me, it's just a new challenge. If i fail, then i can blame myself.

Not really, in fact a lot of times it was when I was out of therapy entirely.


That's what i'm saying. The time you thought things over could be between visits or after final visit, it does not really matter, as the end result would still be absolutely the same.

Anyway, i'll see you in a few days.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

If you feel the need to force your will upon others, you are the one with the problem, and it's very much internal.

How much will it take for you to get the hint? The external world makes things worse than it is and it is completely not your fault and it's out of your control by default. This means that often times the only way to deal with it effectively is to handle it internal if possible. That's all I'm saying. You can't effectively do shit about it in a lot of cases, so people have to simply accept it if they can not.

But your argument is pretty much like saying "people should just sit back and accept some things are terrible and people do terrible things". Sometimes in order to make things better you do have to act though, and sometimes the chance is given. I'm not saying the examples I mentioned are the right way to go about it, but people who do things like that are indeed seeking to right wrongs that affect them quite a bit.
Incorrect: IQ is potential, not an end result.

Even then it stills seems very wrong. Also try telling that to all of the people use IQ as a dick measuring contest as of late.

That's what i'm saying. The time you thought things over could be between visits or after final visit, it does not really matter, as the end result would still be absolutely the same.

I'm pretty sure that it had nothing to do with the therapy.

Posted Friday by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

How much will it take for you to get the hint? The external world makes things worse than it is and it is completely not your fault and it's out of your control by default. This means that often times the only way to deal with it effectively is to handle it internal if possible. That's all I'm saying. You can't effectively do shit about it in a lot of cases, so people have to simply accept it if they can not.


Good, then we're in agreement. but there's a difference between accepting it and hiding it. True acceptance doesn't make you bitter, which is what leads to your problems cascading.

But your argument is pretty much like saying "people should just sit back and accept some things are terrible and people do terrible things". Sometimes in order to make things better you do have to act though, and sometimes the chance is given. I'm not saying the examples I mentioned are the right way to go about it, but people who do things like that are indeed seeking to right wrongs that affect them quite a bit.


Welcome back to strawman land. Aside from your assumption of what i'm saying (which is a strawman), we're in agreement.

Even then it stills seems very wrong. Also try telling that to all of the people use IQ as a dick measuring contest as of late.


I doubt "all of the people" you're reference includes more than myself, but i would point out you're wrong. Even if it wasn't me, what you're dealing with is their own traumas and insecurities. If they didn't have issues, they wouldn't feel the need to try to downplay your potential. It means they're afraid, and their need to belittle you (as opposed to simply discussing facts) is their own insecurity. I used to belittle people all the time on GT due to my insecurity. Alot of people will remember me being an absolute jerk, and it was because i refused to deal with my own insecurity.

I'm pretty sure that it had nothing to do with the therapy.


Not theirs, but your own. Sounds to me like you've had some success doing it on your own.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

Welcome back to strawman land. Aside from your assumption of what i'm saying (which is a strawman), we're in agreement.

I get that it probably wasn't what you were trying to say, it just kinda came off that way.

I doubt "all of the people" you're reference includes more than myself, but i would point out you're wrong.

I wasn't even including you per se but I did get the impression that you may well be one of those people. It's really much more than you regardless.

Not theirs, but your own. Sounds to me like you've had some success doing it on your own.

I wasn't talking about self-therapy but fair enough I guess.

Edited Friday by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

I wasn't even including you per se but I did get the impression that you may well be one of those people. It's really much more than you regardless.


Alrighty, then keep calm. When people get excited they make mistakes. When people get excited, they get stronger, but then when the adrenalin wears off, they get weak and slow. I box, and i'll tell you from experience, this is the case. And dealing with intellectual arguments for so long, i've seen it applies to arguments as well. Keep calm and keep your wits about you, and you'll win the fight. "Argument from authority" is also a logical falacy, and while it does have weight, it is not a valid counter-argument. Throwing your IQ around, especially if that's all you say, is basically the same thing. Note that i didn't need to mention my IQ, but instead argued that it is relevant.

I wasn't talking about self-therapy but fair enough I guess.


The only difference is whether or not someone else is involved, really. If you can handle it yourself, it's all the more efficient and better. If, however, your self-help leads to more problems because you're burying it instead of coping, you're only going to get worse. I see it all the time, and i'd love to stop it, but sometimes it's just too hard for some people. Those are the people who need external help the most. If you can't solve the problem on your own, please, for the love of everyone else, get the help.

The bigger problem is, and i know this from experience, is that alot of people get into therapy and psychology because helping others with their own problems helps them help themselves. You'd be surprised how many people out there are half-crazy or have problems of their own, thus if your problem is similar enough to theirs, they'll be absolutely toxic. And alot of people are worried about loosing patients, either for their patient's health or for fear of not paying bills. This is where pros fall short, but if you can't fix your own problems, you need to take that risk.

Anyway, ride's here. Anyone looking for me should be able to figure out my skype id, as it's the same name i use everywhere.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

Jordan Peterson is an intelligent fellow, but he is overly insistent on the idea that IQ between generations is not very malleable. And although I have yet to hear him make any overt racial arguments concordant with that idea, those who would be inclined to do so love to turn to him when they want validation.

He does not do enough to address the very real problems with IQ tests. He was on Joe Rogan's podcast last month with Bret Weinstein, and although it was an interesting and well-reasoned encounter, I think it was clear that he fumbled when Weinstein questioned him even lightly on the problems with the methodologies of certain studies.

To be clear, such tests are indeed measuring something. And given how ability and power and resources can accumulate in groups that have been forced by certain conditions to become competent in a number of skills, it can deceptively appear that IQ has a basis that is racial.

I think the problems raised by this article show that it is not, however:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/12/17/none-of-the-above/amp
Within living memory, we have had groups in America that had markedly lower IQs than other groups to start out, and through perseverance, organization, work, connections, opportunities, or culture were able to shoot past the mean.

These factors are the most operative ones, and when you pass them on to people close to you or who look like you, then it may appear that all you are doing is passing on your race.

This idea is dangerous because it may cause people to ignore the skill sets and culture that allowed them to attain intelligence in the first place. If all you need to do is propagate your race, then simple reproduction is all that is required to maintain intelligence in your society. Just have kids and your job is done.

We all know is it way more complicated than that.

Posted Friday by Just Because
Just Because
 

"most of my arguments on the origin of human "conditions" delve down to this, and i think the most fun one in this topic is homosexuality"

haha i sure bet it's fun for you straight people to talk about us like we're zoo animals

"Alot of people will remember me being an absolute jerk, "

golly i wonder why?

Posted Friday by poptart!
poptart!
 

haha i sure bet it's fun for you straight people to talk about us like we're zoo animals

Is that what he meant? I didn't even pick up on it at the time. Looking back again though, it does make some sense I guess. Must have been zoning out.

Posted Friday by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
The machiavellian menace

Jordan Peterson is an intelligent fellow, but he is overly insistent on the idea that IQ between generations is not very malleable. And although I have yet to hear him make any overt racial arguments concordant with that idea, those who would be inclined to do so love to turn to him when they want validation.


The research that IQ and race correlate is there, and sound. I agree that race is not the primary determining factor on IQ, but my opinion is based on anecdotal evidence, not science. The science says suggests that it's most likely race, so he has no reason to take the time to suggest as much. Honestly, i think we need to start looking into the topic again, because "data is racist" until we go back and continue doing these studies. The only way we'll know if my theory on IQ is accurate is if we first do enough science to show that race an IQ correlations are not causations. The most damning evidence, btw, is the twin studies.

Me, personally, i argue that IQ isn't even intelligence, but mental willpower. Both would show up the same way, but he difference is that it's entirely malleable (and everyone's essentially holding themselves back), and it also explains all the exceptions.

He does not do enough to address the very real problems with IQ tests. He was on Joe Rogan's podcast last month with Bret Weinstein, and although it was an interesting and well-reasoned encounter, I think it was clear that he fumbled when Weinstein questioned him even lightly on the problems with the methodologies of certain studies.

To be clear, such tests are indeed measuring something. And given how ability and power and resources can accumulate in groups that have been forced by certain conditions to become competent in a number of skills, it can deceptively appear that IQ has a basis that is racial.


I agree. The tests are absolutely horrible, yet, at the same time, they do measure *something* when they are conducted fairly. IQ correlates with quite a bit of other things, as well. Honestly, i think the problem is the fact we've pretty much abandoned IQ studies in favor of just doing test (especially when looking at boobs and other things, for other studies) and being done with it. IQ knowledge as it is is way more valuable in politics than actually improving upon IQ knowledge, and that's for both sides of the political spectrum. IQ is just the new fickle spirits of fate, trees, whatever. The more we know about it, the less we can pretend that it tells us and can be used for.

I think the problems raised by this article show that it is not, however:


The child abuse and IQ correlation, as well as child abuse correlating with other similar things, would suggest there might be some truth to that article. The problem with that article that I have is that it doesn't show much research. I'd like to see more, myself. I'm still pretty sure that my idea of IQ is right (with all my anecdotal evidence).

Within living memory, we have had groups in America that had markedly lower IQs than other groups to start out, and through perseverance, organization, work, connections, opportunities, or culture were able to shoot past the mean.

These factors are the most operative ones, and when you pass them on to people close to you or who look like you, then it may appear that all you are doing is passing on your race.


This is most definitely the case, and my main argument against the race-IQ correlation. Unfortunately, their counter argument is inter-racial breeding, which is hard to quantify, but the burden of proof falls on us in any case.

This idea is dangerous because it may cause people to ignore the skill sets and culture that allowed them to attain intelligence in the first place. If all you need to do is propagate your race, then simple reproduction is all that is required to maintain intelligence in your society. Just have kids and your job is done.


Many people do indeed believe this, which is another reason why conservatives (such as myself) go on against no-fault-divorce, welfare programs, and bringing in more people from the middle east. Stefan Molyneux has done many videos on these topics and why, based on what the current stance is on IQ, these actions will harm the west: because the breeding necessary for the IQ increase becomes harder. They call it "regression to the means." If they are right about IQ, then they are also inevitably right about this.

Is that what he meant? I didn't even pick up on it at the time. Looking back again though, it does make some sense I guess. Must have been zoning out.


Don't fall for this trolling. I would've said the same thing for anything else that showed us things. Incidental observations are much more humane than intentionally trying to make people what you want them to be. To clarify my statements, I've seen a few studies suggesting that there are no straight women, that women are inherently bisexual (given that there would be an evolutionary benefit from this, i'm still on the fence, because the more I push women I know when talking about it, the more i see evidence of it being true). However, the nature-vs-nurture argument is whether or not women are bound by genes to be bi, or if it is the result of play (more specifically, beacuse play in animals is to help them decide what should be considered "normal," seeing as young women are discouraged from playing house (other reasons and games would exist to, but you'll see in a few sentences why i picked on this) with young men, there is definitely a potential causal factor [annecdotal, but someone i know told me that her and her friends, all of whom were female, played house together all the time, then as they got older, they started to play house just for the excuse to make out with each other, and there were no exceptions in this group]).

Posted Sunday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

Oh god long debunked race and IQ nonsense. YOu know IQ isn't even a reliable metric correct? IQ tests are wholly arbitrary.

Edited Sunday by tnu
tnu

Oh god long debunked race and IQ nonsense.


Show me the debunking. I've been trying to debunk it myself with logic and reason, yet i'm falling short.

YOu know IQ isn't even a reliable metric correct? IQ tests are wholly arbitrary.


This is the core of my arguments, really.

Posted Sunday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

One more little thing I'd recommend trying to get into, that is just a teensy bit difficult (and by that, I mean it took me years to get into this mind space):

I've struggled with depression for as long as I can remember, and I stopped going to therapy because I didn't find them helpful. When it got really bad again, I went back on the advice of some friends. I didn't like what my therapist had been saying, and so I stopped going after a few sessions. Years later, with untreated depression reeking havoc on my life, it kind of just hit me that the reason I didn't like what they were saying was that it didn't jibe with my current worldview. That I wanted to just be "cured" of the depression without having to change anything about myself or my frame of mind. But, for me, acting like I knew everything and what might help me clearly didn't improve anything at all.

So when I went back a few years ago, I tried to take the approach that my therapist doesn't know everything either. However, being an independent party removed from a personal perspective (since she's my therapist and not my friend), she could provide a more neutral and nuanced insight. She doesn't know everything, but clearly I knew very little myself since doing what I had been doing (ignoring every piece of advice that I didn't like) hadn't worked. The least I could do was honestly, earnestly try things this third party might suggest.

I don't go to therapy anymore, but I've always got her number handy. It's taken a lot of work and a lot of things that weren't easy, or things that I didn't want to do. But I'm finally in a relatively ok space and the depression really only comes out sporadically, rather than constantly. (To me, my depression isn't something I think of as being "curable." It's just a thing I need to learn to manage - which is another good mindset to get into.)

Posted Sunday by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

↑ This is really what therapy is all about, and shows, precisely, what i've been trying to say this whole thread, but was unable.

So when I went back a few years ago, I tried to take the approach that my therapist doesn't know everything either. However, being an independent party removed from a personal perspective (since she's my therapist and not my friend), she could provide a more neutral and nuanced insight. She doesn't know everything, but clearly I knew very little myself since doing what I had been doing (ignoring every piece of advice that I didn't like) hadn't worked. The least I could do was honestly, earnestly try things this third party might suggest.


What's so sad to me is, despite how helpful it is, most people view therapy in such an ugly light that they won't go in the first place. My failure to see things with this mentality, was why I failed to benefit from it, myself. It was when this mentality was introduced to me by other people (some of which from old GT, and mostly from others) that I was finally able to give myself therapy without external help. It would've went much faster for me, however, if i accepted external help.

The problem is, if you're too skeptical, you'll continue to see things how you want to see them, which is what leads to the anger: your worldview is wrong, so when things remind you of your trauma, they're basically reminding you that your worldview is wrong, even if they aren't even aware you even exist. This leads to so much anger and resentment.

On the other hand, if you go in full faith, with no skepticism, you allow them to form a new worldview, which they have based on their experiences, which only loosely jive with your own, to the point that even if it is the right worldview, it's so flimsy it'll come crashing down on you at some point, leading you into all sorts of crazy avenues, usually out of fear.

Posted Sunday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

I am glad you mentioned the twin studies. That is one of the things Peterson was questioned on in the podcast that I do not think he was able to adequately defend. Weinstein brought up some important objections, but Peterson did not address them, largely because the discussion just sort of naturally drifted away into other things he and Weinstein did agree on.

For one the studies he is referring to are decades old, not great in number, and not easily reproduced. Although the matter was considered by many to have been settled by these studies, they don't quite meet the standards for rigor that we would demand of them were they carried out today.

They also did not adequately take into account the fact that prenatal conditions (such as if the mother had been drinking, engaged in reckless behavior, or taking bad street drugs prior to giving birth) can have a deleterious impact on the twins and this will show up in measures of intelligence even in the adopted twin. Especially in cases of adoption, you have to take great care to control for this in your experiments. The very fact that a child is going up for adoption in the first place raises the question of what was so wrong with the mother that adoption was necessary, and how might that affect the intelligence of the child going forward. The experiments tended to focus on negative impacts to intelligence between the twins rather than positive impacts. We still do not know enough about the latter.

Given how malleable IQ has shown itself to be between generations so long as a formerly low IQ population is given the opportunity (and demonstrates the will) to bestow upon its children the chance to learn, build wealth, and adapt to modernity, I think the race angle has been largely a deceptively interesting, but ultimately misleading, distraction.

This can be an argument for not allowing into your country those whose cultural alienation would cause them to be more actively hostile to modernity. But then the matter turns to uncovering the sources of such alienation amongst those already living here and then fixing it, so that the next generation has a chance to improve itself. IQ itself becomes largely irrelevant.

Given that the article I linked was originally published in the New Yorker, it lacks the citation structure of a hard academic article. But looking into the Flynn Effect, as well as the names of the scholars referred to throughout the piece, has led to some food for thought.

Posted Monday by Just Because
Just Because
 

I am glad you mentioned the twin studies. That is one of the things Peterson was questioned on in the podcast that I do not think he was able to adequately defend. Weinstein brought up some important objections, but Peterson did not address them, largely because the discussion just sort of naturally drifted away into other things he and Weinstein did agree on.


On one hand, i'd love to criticize people for that, but on the other I've been guilty of such a thing subconsciously, so it's hard to finger someone for intentionally doing that, unless he is interrupted to be reminded he went off topic, then he has no excuse.

For one the studies he is referring to are decades old, not great in number, and not easily reproduced. Although the matter was considered by many to have been settled by these studies, they don't quite meet the standards for rigor that we would demand of them were they carried out today.


Well, that's the thing with the the people who cite the correlation: because of fear of being called racist, not able to get funding, and other reasons, it's hard to get updated studies. That's why I say, we could more easily debunk this if we brought this issue back to the forefront. Data is unbiased, data is objective. The more we do down this path, the more the truth will come out, whether we like the truth or not. That's the nice thing about objective science.

They also did not adequately take into account the fact that prenatal conditions (such as if the mother had been drinking, engaged in reckless behavior, or taking bad street drugs prior to giving birth) can have a deleterious impact on the twins and this will show up in measures of intelligence even in the adopted twin. Especially in cases of adoption, you have to take great care to control for this in your experiments. The very fact that a child is going up for adoption in the first place raises the question of what was so wrong with the mother that adoption was necessary, and how might that affect the intelligence of the child going forward. The experiments tended to focus on negative impacts to intelligence between the twins rather than positive impacts. We still do not know enough about the latter.


Which is all the more reason to bring the topic as far out into the open as possible so we can get the real studies done.

Given how malleable IQ has shown itself to be between generations so long as a formerly low IQ population is given the opportunity (and demonstrates the will) to bestow upon its children the chance to learn, build wealth, and adapt to modernity, I think the race angle has been largely a deceptively interesting, but ultimately misleading, distraction.


My theory is that it's effort and a few other things. I believe that IQ can be influenced during one's lifetime, rather than being a purely genetic factor. I have no evidence, but if we finally did the studies, i think the twin studies would show the IQ correlation in the old studies came from culture: "i'm black, so i'm supposed to be dumb, therefore why should i try if no matter what i'm stupid?" Like, did the twins embrace the culture "of their people" (american "black culture" is actually irish culture, as some people will point out) and that have an influence on overall IQ? If people can be really strong about "i'm not the sex that my body objectively has" then it's safe to say that, even if raised by white people, black people will stick to "black culture," and white people will stick to "white culture," which could influence IQ, and all this would happen irrespective of what race actually raised the children. Just go help someone with their family history and see how fast someone wants to learn another language because they found out their ancestors were german or something. It's amazing how we handle such things.

This can be an argument for not allowing into your country those whose cultural alienation would cause them to be more actively hostile to modernity. But then the matter turns to uncovering the sources of such alienation amongst those already living here and then fixing it, so that the next generation has a chance to improve itself. IQ itself becomes largely irrelevant.


Careful, though, as often times those people have their own culture they bring with them that may cause them to be hostile to modernity regardless of alienation (aka "it's a two way street"). This is particularly what we see with individuals from the middle-east entering western countries. Rather than trying to be a melting pot, they tend to intentionally segregate themselve, even committing atrocities against those who try to integrate. "Honor killings" are pretty indicative of this.

Given that the article I linked was originally published in the New Yorker, it lacks the citation structure of a hard academic article. But looking into the Flynn Effect, as well as the names of the scholars referred to throughout the piece, has led to some food for thought.


That's what i was thinking.

Posted Monday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

Although there are good and lively accounts of a lot of black and Irish exchange in both the North and South, saying black culture is Irish culture is bizarre.

A lot of the dance, oral tradition, and call and response tradition of African-American life is a transmuted form of the ways of life that Africans brought with them to America, and were present in black life long before there was much large-scale contact with the Irish.

A lot of the black experience with religion in America was shaped by Protestantism and not the Catholicism of the Irish, while the spiritual superstitions are transmutations of native African thought, as well as Southern thought at large. In that you will find more overtly Scottish, French, Creole, or Native influences than I would say Irish.

The white contribution to African-American culture is large and multifarious, whether we are looking at Jazz or Rock or poetry or religious beliefs. So much so that giving the Irish such undue credit misses a lot of what went on.

There are interesting similarities and interesting exchanges, but the absolute confidence with which that particular statement was made is unwarranted.

But I do think you have raised the interesting note that the pull of culture can impact someone even if they are adopted by another family from another culture. People who are adopted or mixed-race can feel social pressure to choose a culture, and if they don't handle it well then it can harm their development by making them feel lost. Or they can pick up the most harmful habits of one or both cultures.

The terms on which the two cultures stand vis-a-vis each other in the larger society can do much to determine how easy it will be for the adopted/mixed-race child to make maximum use of their lot. The people who have the most trouble are the ones who feel the conflict between the cultures most keenly (Elliot Rodger, for example, was utterly unable to reconcile his white and Asian sides and it was part of what drove him to become a killer). This conflict is not at all a given and is something that can change from family to family. Some people, depending on their circumstances, feel the complementary aspects of their cultures and not the conflict.

Meanwhile, the neurobiological basis for the dysphoria present in transsexualism is so different from this socio-cultural issue that the analogy does not really hold up, although it is true that social pressure in relation to gender can make one's dysphoria more unbearable than it would otherwise be. These two issues are only similar in that regard.

To try to bring this back to tnu, whatever combination of medication, healthy cultural validation, therapy, interpersonal support, religion, or even harmless frivolity, helps you feel like you're really living, go for it. It can be hard to find, but hang on and keep searching. Until we as a society find more systematic ways of properly alleviating these issues, it seems that it is up to everyone to cope with their life obstacles in their own way.

Posted Monday by Just Because
Just Because
 

Although there are good and lively accounts of a lot of black and Irish exchange in both the North and South, saying black culture is Irish culture is bizarre.

A lot of the dance, oral tradition, and call and response tradition of African-American life is a transmuted form of the ways of life that Africans brought with them to America, and were present in black life long before there was much large-scale contact with the Irish.


And how much of that remains today, vs how much of the Irish culture does?

A lot of the black experience with religion in America was shaped by Protestantism and not the Catholicism of the Irish, while the spiritual superstitions are transmutations of native African thought, as well as Southern thought at large. In that you will find more overtly Scottish, French, Creole, or Native influences than I would say Irish.


Yes, but these aren't things tied to "black culture."

The white contribution to African-American culture is large and multifarious, whether we are looking at Jazz or Rock or poetry or religious beliefs. So much so that giving the Irish such undue credit misses a lot of what went on.


Yeah, but this isn't "black culture."

There are interesting similarities and interesting exchanges, but the absolute confidence with which that particular statement was made is unwarranted.


It's because you're not looking at "black culture."

But I do think you have raised the interesting note that the pull of culture can impact someone even if they are adopted by another family from another culture. People who are adopted or mixed-race can feel social pressure to choose a culture, and if they don't handle it well then it can harm their development by making them feel lost. Or they can pick up the most harmful habits of one or both cultures.


Exactly. I've been trying to suggest, for a long time, that IQ, or rather, the things that IQ correlates with, are all about attitude, which is generated from the culture you adopt. Are stupid people inherently violent and angry, or are people stupid because they're violent and angry? We do know one thing, cultures have a habit of making people violent and angry. Yet i've seen people who are not violent and angry, and are not stupid, and they also don't adopt the culture. I see a much more positive correlation, but my anecdotal experiences are not a massive scientific study with lots of controls in place.

The terms on which the two cultures stand vis-a-vis each other in the larger society can do much to determine how easy it will be for the adopted/mixed-race child to make maximum use of their lot. The people who have the most trouble are the ones who feel the conflict between the cultures most keenly (Elliot Rodger, for example, was utterly unable to reconcile his white and Asian sides and it was part of what drove him to become a killer). This conflict is not at all a given and is something that can change from family to family. Some people, depending on their circumstances, feel the complementary aspects of their cultures and not the conflict.


I've seen this as well. I've met white-asians who've had issues, and i've met white-asians who have not had issues, and it is independent of sex, as well. One's ability to be as a roman in rome seems to have alot to do with it, as well, which in turn affects success of someone who's not of the culture at all.

Meanwhile, the neurobiological basis for the dysphoria present in transsexualism is so different from this socio-cultural issue that the analogy does not really hold up, although it is true that social pressure in relation to gender can make one's dysphoria more unbearable than it would otherwise be. These two issues are only similar in that regard.


To be honest, i'm not familiar with any neurobiological basis for the dysphoria. Whether or not there is a neurobiological basis for it seems to be hottest issue surrounding the topic, so, in absense of any hard data, i'm gonna lean towards the logical pathway, which would suggest that play is the determiner, especially when play always seems to be cited as an indicative symptom ("i always liked dolls, so i must be a girl in a man's body" [I know it's much more complicated than that in the majority of cases, but we can't ignore the simplification, either]).

To try to bring this back to tnu, whatever combination of medication, healthy cultural validation, therapy, interpersonal support, religion, or even harmless frivolity, helps you feel like you're really living, go for it. It can be hard to find, but hang on and keep searching. Until we as a society find more systematic ways of properly alleviating these issues, it seems that it is up to everyone to cope with their life obstacles in their own way.


I think we'll only find out when we delve deep into cases. People who've had trouble with therapy should be the primary source of feedback for therapists to improve therapy. AFAIK, there doesn't really seem to be an avenue for this. I would hope TNU becomes this.

Posted Monday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 
Reply to: Actually reconsidering therapy.

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