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You can even add a Reset button shortcut to the controller.

The Super NES Classic Edition boasts an impressive lineup of the original console's games, plus a long-lost, unreleased one in Star Fox 2. But just like its predecessor, the SNES Classic comes with no official means for playing anything other than those games. There's no Virtual Console-style digital library to purchase games from, nor can you pop in an original SNES cartridge if you still have one lying around. Yet just like the NES Classic Edition, hackers have found a way to expand what the system is capable of.

Using an updated version of a tool called HackChi--also used to hack the NES Classic--it's possible to load more games onto the SNES Classic by connecting it to a PC. Due to the fact that the system is loaded with 300 MB of storage, only a fraction of which is actually used by the officially included games, it's possible to load dozens of additional games. The video below, for instance, showcases a system that now has more than 200 of them. As you can see, it's even possible to add box art and tweak various options so that these added games appear no different from those that are officially supported. They don't even necessarily have to be SNES games to work.

You can also use HackChi to address one of the annoying, if ultimately minor oversights of the SNES Classic: the absence of a Home button. In order to bring up the system's menu (either to switch games or access save states for what you're currently playing), you have to ]physically push a button on the system itself; there's no option to do this on the included controller. HackChi allows you to implement your own controller shortcut.

As you might imagine, however, there are some things to keep in mind. Doing anything like this runs the risk of bricking your console--and although Nintendo suggests they'll be easier to get than the NES Classic, that's still a risk you may not want to take. It also requires obtaining ROMs for the games you want to install, which is both illegal and risky.

There are plenty of games we would have have liked to see on the SNES Classic, but what you get out of the box is still a fantastic offering. For more, you can check out our SNES Classic Edition review. The system is hard to come by, but we're tracking how to buy a SNES Classic--it's already shown up in stock again at GameStop since launch.
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/snes-classic-hacked-to-add-more-playable-games-and/1100-6453901/
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it's worth nothing that other articles i've read have stated that if you try to load non SNES roms onto the system, those games will crash to the GUI almost immediatly.

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There are 67 Replies

Why not just use an emulator at this point?

Posted October 10th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

Becuase emulators are 3rd party programs that don't play roms perfectly. The SNES Classic is a first party emulator box that so far has played all 21 games flawlessly, not to mention the authenticity of playing nintendo games on a nintendo console.

And Simply because you can.

Posted October 10th by Q
Q
 

Perhaps, but for the majority of people. Honestly, though, the new SNES are emulators, too.

Posted October 10th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"Honestly, though, the new SNES are emulators, too."

Yes, I know. I said it's a first party emulator box.

Posted October 10th by Q
Q
 

once I understood the reset button and saves, I didn't really have much of an issue with it. It loads quickly, the wired controller has me sitting relatively close so I can hit it easily, it kinda encourages playing not like a shitlord, and it comes with rewind. Nothing against making it more convenient if you can spare a button, I just wanted to mention that I don't think it's a problem or anything.


It also requires obtaining ROMs for the games you want to install, which is both illegal and risky.



if someone can't handle this then I'm pretty sure they shouldn't be trying to hack their snes classic

Posted October 11th by Pirate_Ninja
Pirate_Ninja

Kohlrak


welcome back redleaf?????

pretty cool. has ansy one been able to pick up a snes?

Posted October 11th by s.o.h.
s.o.h.
 

redleaf?

Posted October 11th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"once I understood the reset button and saves, I didn't really have much of an issue with it. It loads quickly, the wired controller has me sitting relatively close so I can hit it easily, it kinda encourages playing not like a shitlord, and it comes with rewind. Nothing against making it more convenient if you can spare a button, I just wanted to mention that I don't think it's a problem or anything. "

Yeah the reset button makes it handy, and I'm glad Nintendo makes it to where you have to get up to rewind your game, otherwise people would start playing sloppy because they can simply rewind the game if they mess up.

As for what you are saying about the short controller cord length, I ordered a pair of extension cords on amazon for $12 and they reach across my living room without a problem. Trust me when I say they are worth it, here is a link to what I bought:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01NBH23ZE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
"if someone can't handle this then I'm pretty sure they shouldn't be trying to hack their snes classic"

Agreed, I'm sure GameSpot was putting that in there to cover their ass legally.

Posted October 11th by Q
Q
 

Why not just use an emulator at this point?




Posted October 11th by Moonray
Moonray
 

If you don't see the appeal in the SNES Classic, then it obviously isn't for you. I can tell you from my personal experience with many emulators on many PC's and OS's that they are never perfect. There are always small issues that ruin the immersion that I am playing a SNES game on SNES hardware. Or any game for any emulator really.

The SNES Classic is a first party Emulator box. Meaning it is designed by Nintendo, to emulate Nintendo games. So far I have not seen one emulation problem and every game runs exactly the same as it's original SNES version. I know as I have many of the SNES games on the SNES Classic in Cart form, i.e. star fox, Mario RPG, and Super Mario World.

Again, If you don't see the value in that then I don't think there is any way anyone can convince you. Which is fine, but looking at how the NES Classic sold out, and how the SNES Classic is continuing to sell out, Nintendo will not be hurt by your lack of purchase.

Edited October 11th by Q
Q
 

pirate ninja are u a girl or a boy im just curious

Posted October 11th by Brandy
Brandy
 

Wish i knew how to quote.

Anyway, Moonray, that's beautiful. I wouldn't blame capitalism, so much as wealth, though.

Posted October 11th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

I just saw the comment about SNES classic and emulators and it reminded me of the joke in the comic strip. I wasn't really making a point or anything.

I see the appeal of the device, even if I do lean on the "just emulate it" side.

Wish i knew how to quote.


Type [quote]TEXT GOES HERE[/quote]

Posted October 11th by Moonray
Moonray
 

The appeal makes sense, but the comic is pretty much right on it. Your average game was not designed with precision built into the game. It's the same reason why i keep my little ambassador ticket app on my 3DS. There's intrinsic value to it.

Wish i knew how to quote.



Type [quot​e]TEXT GOES HERE[/qu​ote]


I should have just tried it, but i didn't see it in the region to the right when you click the help button, so i chose not to. XD

Edited October 11th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

If you want to know more stuff like that then: [All formatting, in case you\'ve forgotten [2.0]]

Posted October 11th by Moonray
Moonray
 

Beat you to it, as i saw you looking at it. XD

Posted October 11th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"The appeal makes sense, but the comic is pretty much right on it. Your average game was not designed with precision built into the game. "

So the comic is kind of right, but misses the point of the SNES Classic. If it was referring to an iPhone, or Android that come out every 6 months to a year then yes it would be spot on. But the SNES Classic is designed to capitalize on greed and feed on consumerism. Otherwise Nintendo would have released 10 different variations of the SNES Classic that all had different games to get people to buy more of them.

And some games like F-Zero, that really do depend on the solid 60 fps for gameplay do suffer in terms of gameplay from poor emulation. Same with Donkey Kong country that has some hard as nails platforming levels. look up the review of the Sega Genesis Flashback to see what I mean by this.

I'm not saying emulators can't do a good job, they just aren't as good as something official.

Posted October 11th by Q
Q
 

It's not being official that matters, as we can see some modern games failing on their designated systems. Let's face it: we have no reason to enjoy this "authenticity" outside of intrinsic value and not pirating. Most emulators today have little FPS issues, even on my current system which can't handle minecraft. (To be fair, it can handle crysis, just not minecraft.)

Posted October 11th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"It's not being official that matters, as we can see some modern games failing on their designated systems."

In this contex, the System being official has nothing to do with certain games failing. It was not the X1 or PS4's fault that Mass Effect Andromeda was poorly made and received. Same with the Sonic games made in the last decade and a half. That's all on the developers.

"Let's face it: we have no reason to enjoy this "authenticity" outside of intrinsic value and not pirating. "

Well I think intrinsic value is not why most people want to get a SNES Classic. I think most people want a SNES Classic because it lets them play games they played as a kid, and either lost, sold or traded over the years and now would like to relive those childhood memories. Maybe their old SNES System doesn't work anymore so they cannot play those games anymore, and a SNES console in decent shape will cost you almost the same amount as a Classic, and that's before you add in buying the original carts. Which a copy of Zelda Link to the Past will around $34 on amazon.

I also think that a lot of people that grew up with the Sega Genesis want a SNES Classic because it gives them a large sample of the great games they never got to play since they were not released for the Genesis. atleast, For me the SNES Classic is a mix of games I own and played as a kid such as Star Fox, Super Mario RPG, Super Mario World, Mega Man x, Super Mario Kart, Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Donkey Kong Country and F-Zero and games I missed out on like Earth Bound, Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy 3 (6), Super Metroid, Super Mario World 2, Castlvania IV, Contra 3, and Ghouls'n Ghosts. So for me it isn't that I wanted the system just to own it for it's value, it's because I grew up during the 8/16/32 bit era and for me it's the best era in gaming. I think many other people would agree which is why it is selling out and why scalpers are trying to charge triple the price.

"Most emulators today have little FPS issues, even on my current system which can't handle minecraft. (To be fair, it can handle crysis, just not minecraft.)"

And that is my point. No Emulator is perfect and no matter what system you run it on it will not run the games the way they were originally designed to run. That is one of the reasons this SNES Classic is better than an emulator program or a raspberry pi. It is a first party product that is designed from the ground up to run these older games. You just can't beat that.

Another good example of how not being officially first party can ruin your emulation is the Sega Genesis Flashback. It has poor frame rates, poor response in the menu's and awkwardly dumps the rom from original carts to memory to play them instead of just reading from the cart. In that case it is better to just emulate as atgames did a piss poor job.

Edited October 12th by Q
Q
 

Well I think intrinsic value is not why most people want to get a SNES Classic. I think most people want a SNES Classic because it lets them play games they played as a kid, and either lost, sold or traded over the years and now would like to relive those childhood memories. Maybe their old SNES System doesn't work anymore so they cannot play those games anymore, and a SNES console in decent shape will cost you almost the same amount as a Classic, and that's before you add in buying the original carts. Which a copy of Zelda Link to the Past will around $34 on amazon.

I also think that a lot of people that grew up with the Sega Genesis want a SNES Classic because it gives them a large sample of the great games they never got to play since they were not released for the Genesis. atleast, For me the SNES Classic is a mix of games I own and played as a kid such as Star Fox, Super Mario RPG, Super Mario World, Mega Man x, Super Mario Kart, Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Donkey Kong Country and F-Zero and games I missed out on like Earth Bound, Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy 3 (6), Super Metroid, Super Mario World 2, Castlvania IV, Contra 3, and Ghouls'n Ghosts. So for me it isn't that I wanted the system just to own it for it's value, it's because I grew up during the 8/16/32 bit era and for me it's the best era in gaming. I think many other people would agree which is why it is selling out and why scalpers are trying to charge triple the price.


Yeah, the majority of the people in this category are quite familiar with emulators.

And that is my point. No Emulator is perfect and no matter what system you run it on it will not run the games the way they were originally designed to run. That is one of the reasons this SNES Classic is better than an emulator program or a raspberry pi. It is a first party product that is designed from the ground up to run these older games. You just can't beat that.


This isn't even remotely true. Just googling to see the hardware myself (i suspected pi on something really generic), the reality is just horrible.
http://screenrant.com/nintendo-snes-classic-hardware-software/
Nintendo just made a simple platform that was strong enough to emulate. And what information I got out of it, the thing uses tablet hardware.

Another good example of how not being officially first party can ruin your emulation is the Sega Genesis Flashback. It has poor frame rates, poor response in the menu's and awkwardly dumps the rom from original carts to memory to play them instead of just reading from the cart. In that case it is better to just emulate as atgames did a piss poor job.


Aside from the poor job of handling the games, this is exactly what these official systems of nintendo are doing, except they can't even dump the cartridges on the fly. Usually it's licensing issues, as they can legally get a license to emulate the system and even include the games, but the system makers don't own all the rights to the original hardware (even nVidia ran into this issue when trying to appease Linux customers by handing out the manual to making drivers for their cards: the only had legal permission to hand out the 2d information, but their lawyers were fighting for a way to release the 3d info [never did find out how that turned out]).

Posted October 12th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

This isn't even remotely true. Just googling to see the hardware myself (i suspected pi on something really generic), the reality is just horrible.
http://screenrant.com/nintendo-snes-classic-hardware-software/
Nintendo just made a simple platform that was strong enough to emulate. And what information I got out of it, the thing uses tablet hardware.


What exactly isn't true? When did I say anything about hardware?

"Aside from the poor job of handling the games, this is exactly what these official systems of nintendo are doing, except they can't even dump the cartridges on the fly."

Except if you look up the item I am talking about, the Sega Genesis FLashback, it doesn't dump the cart of the fly. It dumps the cart after you put the cart into the system and then turned it on. It then dumps the cart into 7 different files that you have to manually launch. That is not on the fly and it's poor quality.

"Usually it's licensing issues, as they can legally get a license to emulate the system and even include the games, but the system makers don't own all the rights to the original hardware (even nVidia ran into this issue when trying to appease Linux customers by handing out the manual to making drivers for their cards: the only had legal permission to hand out the 2d information, but their lawyers were fighting for a way to release the 3d info [never did find out how that turned out])."

What are we talking about here? A raspberry pi emulating games? That will never get licensed from any game developer. and thats the problem with emulators on computers and is exactly what I am talking about.

Posted October 12th by Q
Q
 

What exactly isn't true? When did I say anything about hardware?


You said the system was designed around the emulation, unlike other emulators. The hardware says that that is entirely false.

Except if you look up the item I am talking about, the Sega Genesis FLashback, it doesn't dump the cart of the fly. It dumps the cart after you put the cart into the system and then turned it on. It then dumps the cart into 7 different files that you have to manually launch. That is not on the fly and it's poor quality.


Maybe, but pointing at one bad emulator doesn't make them all bad, or even the majority of them bad.

What are we talking about here? A raspberry pi emulating games? That will never get licensed from any game developer. and thats the problem with emulators on computers and is exactly what I am talking about.


Licensing doesn't make the emulators more stable or accurate. In other words, the whole reason for the official emulators is that you don't like piracy. Which is fine, and I can respect that. But don't say it's for other reasons if it is not.

BTW: I have a portable sega emulator that not only came with games, but bears the logo. It was sold at Sam's Club (owned by Walmart), so I would say it's very likely to actually be licensed. Seems to follow FCC regs as well. And, it's absolutely awful. It can't even get the sound remotely right.

Edited October 12th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"You said the system was designed around the emulation, unlike other emulators. The hardware says that that is entirely false. "

The comment I made about it being designed from the ground up to be the best at emulating nintendo games? That's not false, it's very true. Nintendo selected hardware that would run the software. But I am also talking about the Physical presentation of the system and the controllers. But it's mainly the Software that I am talking about in my statement. I am well aware that the NES and SNES classic run on the same hardware.

"Maybe, but pointing at one bad emulator doesn't make them all bad, or even the majority of them bad. "

Can you show me a emulator system that is similar to the SNES Classic that does as good of a job? And is as easy to use?

"Licensing doesn't make the emulators more stable or accurate. In other words, the whole reason for the official emulators is that you don't like piracy. Which is fine, and I can respect that. But don't say it's for other reasons if it is not."

I agree that being officially Licensed does not mean an emulator will be more stable or accurate, however it doesn't mean can't be either. And the SNES Classic isn't a Licensed system, it's an official first party product from the company that the games came from.

I never said I didn't like Piracy. I just don't actively condone it, but having said that I am wanting to try hacking my SNES Classic to add more games that didn't come with the system. I have used A LOT of emulators for NES, SNES, Genesis, N64 and PlayStation games. And they all have small issues that ruin the effect of playing on original hardware.

Posted October 12th by Q
Q
 

"BTW: I have a portable sega emulator that not only came with games, but bears the logo. It was sold at Sam's Club (owned by Walmart), so I would say it's very likely to actually be licensed. Seems to follow FCC regs as well. And, it's absolutely awful. It can't even get the sound remotely right."

You mean this:
https://www.amazon.com/Sega-Genesis-Arcade-Ultimate-Portable-2016/dp/B01KV6EC7O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507857321&sr=8-1&keywords=sega+genesis+handheld
Yeah I know, I have the smaller one that plugs into the TV. It's trash also. And yes it's officially licensed which pisses me off even more.

Edited October 12th by Q
Q
 

The comment I made about it being designed from the ground up to be the best at emulating nintendo games? That's not false, it's very true. Nintendo selected hardware that would run the software. But I am also talking about the Physical presentation of the system and the controllers. But it's mainly the Software that I am talking about in my statement. I am well aware that the NES and SNES classic run on the same hardware.


But the emulation software you can get from elsewhere is designed from the ground up for authenticity, and optional extras. Though, trust me, getting into system design you find out very quickly that hardware choices can be made much deeper than what nintendo did. Basically, they used what they learned from making the Nintendo DS line to make this system. It's not innovative at all, and pretty much anyone could've made this system. It's just special for the nintendo logo.

Can you show me a emulator system that is similar to the SNES Classic that does as good of a job?


Any single one i've tried. I have Snes9x running on my tablet. It runs into hiccups due to external processes, not the emulator or anything else, and I can verify this is the exclusive cause of the FPS drops on my system, simply by observing process monitors and such.

And is as easy to use?


That's incredibly subjective. But, that's the basis of the console vs PC debate. PC can be upgraded, console can't be. The upgradability of the PC is where the difficulty of PC comes in, while with a console you can simply stick in a disk/cartridge and let it rip.

I agree that being officially Licensed does not mean an emulator will be more stable or accurate, however it doesn't mean can't be either. And the SNES Classic isn't a Licensed system, it's an official first party product from the company that the games came from.


Still doesn't change anything stability wise.

I never said I didn't like Piracy. I just don't actively condone it, but having said that I am wanting to try hacking my SNES Classic to add more games that didn't come with the system. I have used A LOT of emulators for NES, SNES, Genesis, N64 and PlayStation games. And they all have small issues that ruin the effect of playing on original hardware.


Seems strange that you'd want to learn how to do that, but not learn how to operate a regular emulator. Would you like to elaborate on these issues? I'm very intune with computer hardware.

Yeah I know, I have the smaller one that plugs into the TV. It's trash also. And yes it's officially licensed with pisses me off even more.


This is where my point comes in. Now that my tablet has an emulator, i only take that thing where i won't take my tablet.

Posted October 12th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"But the emulation software you can get from elsewhere is designed from the ground up for authenticity, and optional extras. Though, trust me, getting into system design you find out very quickly that hardware choices can be made much deeper than what nintendo did. Basically, they used what they learned from making the Nintendo DS line to make this system. It's not innovative at all, and pretty much anyone could've made this system. It's just special for the nintendo logo. "

Sure Nintendo could have went with more complicated hardware, but why when the games being ran don't need powerful hardware? Trust me Nintendo purposely picked that hardware for a reason and most likely it was the most cost effect at achieving their goal.

"Any single one i've tried. I have Snes9x running on my tablet. It runs into hiccups due to external processes, not the emulator or anything else, and I can verify this is the exclusive cause of the FPS drops on my system, simply by observing process monitors and such. "

I have used Snes9x, and it isn't perfect. It has some FPS issues that can be noticed in games like F-Zero. And with the SNES Classic, there are not external processes to interfere.

"That's incredibly subjective. But, that's the basis of the console vs PC debate. PC can be upgraded, console can't be. The upgradability of the PC is where the difficulty of PC comes in, while with a console you can simply stick in a disk/cartridge and let it rip. "

No it's really not subjective. Upgrading components on a PC may seem easy, but it's still not as easy as playing a stand alone system that requires no upgrades to play it's games.

"Still doesn't change anything stability wise. "

ok, i'm not going to keep arguing with you on that.

"Seems strange that you'd want to learn how to do that, but not learn how to operate a regular emulator. Would you like to elaborate on these issues? I'm very intune with computer hardware. "

I'm not sure where the break down is, but I know how to use emulators. I have already stated this. I have been using them for a very long time.

"This is where my point comes in. Now that my tablet has an emulator, i only take that thing where i won't take my tablet."

I feel like we are arguing this point for no reason. Again, that item we are talking about is a 3rd party product that is licensed by Sega. But Sega didn't make it.

Posted October 12th by Q
Q
 

Sure Nintendo could have went with more complicated hardware, but why when the games being ran don't need powerful hardware? Trust me Nintendo purposely picked that hardware for a reason and most likely it was the most cost effect at achieving their goal.


Most cost-effective method for them isn't necessarily the most cost-effective method for you. Which is what i see: they're basically recycling the knowledge (and perhaps hardware) from other systems to make this one. They chose the method they have to invest the least in, which means the hardware is probably more powerful than it needs to be, and could be made much more cost-effectively. From what I can see of the hardware: yep.

I have used Snes9x, and it isn't perfect. It has some FPS issues that can be noticed in games like F-Zero. And with the SNES Classic, there are not external processes to interfere.


External processes are your fault, not the device's. You're shelling out money to not shut down processes on your computer. Which might be your choice, but you're effectively saying that laziness is another reason, which i can respect if you admit it.

No it's really not subjective. Upgrading components on a PC may seem easy, but it's still not as easy as playing a stand alone system that requires no upgrades to play it's games.


Ease is almost always subjective. Some things are easier for some people than others. While for someone with a complicated home entertainment setup it's easier to close programs on their computer or tablet or whatever, someone with a clean setup it'd be easier to use a console. Most systems don't need the upgrades to handle NES or SNES.

I'm not sure where the break down is, but I know how to use emulators. I have already stated this. I have been using them for a very long time.


Rule #1 of tech solutions: reproducability. If you can't reproduce the problem, it will be labeled "layer 8 issue" or "PEBKAC." It sounds to me like the problem isn't the emulator, but the system it's running on, which is almost always PEBKAC.

I feel like we are arguing this point for no reason. Again, that item we are talking about is a 3rd party product that is licensed by Sega. But Sega didn't make it.


This part wasn't an argument, that's why.

Posted October 12th by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"External processes are your fault, not the device's. You're shelling out money to not shut down processes on your computer. Which might be your choice, but you're effectively saying that laziness is another reason, which i can respect if you admit it. "

I love how you keep implying things about me. I'm done talking about this.

Edited Friday by Q
Q
 

I love how you keep implying things about me. I'm done talking about this.


If the shoe fits.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"External processes are your fault, not the device's. You're shelling out money to not shut down processes on your computer. Which might be your choice, but you're effectively saying that laziness is another reason, which i can respect if you admit it. "

I am not the lazy one. The programmers of the emulators are for not fixing those issues for so long. External processes cannot be shutdown on computer as there are always things running in the background. That is how a computer works. You say you know computers so you should know this already.

"Most cost-effective method for them isn't necessarily the most cost-effective method for you. Which is what i see: they're basically recycling the knowledge (and perhaps hardware) from other systems to make this one. They chose the method they have to invest the least in, which means the hardware is probably more powerful than it needs to be, and could be made much more cost-effectively. From what I can see of the hardware: yep. "

You should write Nintendo a letter and tell them how stupid they are for being a business thats been in the market for over 30 years but some 27 year old knows better than them.

"Ease is almost always subjective. Some things are easier for some people than others. While for someone with a complicated home entertainment setup it's easier to close programs on their computer or tablet or whatever, someone with a clean setup it'd be easier to use a console. Most systems don't need the upgrades to handle NES or SNES. "

Again in this situation it is not subjective. It literally is easier. Prove how it is not.

"Rule #1 of tech solutions: reproducability. If you can't reproduce the problem, it will be labeled "layer 8 issue" or "PEBKAC." It sounds to me like the problem isn't the emulator, but the system it's running on, which is almost always PEBKAC. "

I can and have reproduced it. If you read what I am saying I am telling you I have had many computers have the same problems with emulators. Thus a repeatable and reproducible problem. It is not a PEBKAC error, as the problem does not exist between the keyboard and chair but in the computer itself, or more specifically the emulator but I feel like you might be having a ID-10-T error.

"This part wasn't an argument, that's why."

Seems like it because I keep trying to agree with you on this point but you keep talking about it like i'm not.

I don't even know why we are arguing about this, you have literally admitted that emulators are not perfect either. Show me a perfect emulator that does not have issues.

The shoe doesn't fit. There isn't even a shoe here, just an argument for some reason on emulators, how to use them and you implying that I don't know how to use them. If thats all you are going to do then just stop talking.

Posted Friday by Q
Q
 

I am not the lazy one. The programmers of the emulators are for not fixing those issues for so long. External processes cannot be shutdown on computer as there are always things running in the background. That is how a computer works. You say you know computers so you should know this already.


I know who's fault these things are, while you clearly do not. I cannot stop an external program from messing with the cycles that my program needs. You need to identify the processes that are made by other lazy programs that have not been properly optimized (have fun with that), then shutting down those processes. Not all external processes are at fault, just specific ones.

You should write Nintendo a letter and tell them how stupid they are for being a business thats been in the market for over 30 years but some 27 year old knows better than them.



I'm not saying they're stupid, i'm saying they're being cost effective for themselves. They're not bothering with other technology, since this is good enough for their goals (since optimizing the price for us isn't one of those goals) , just like, for most people, the emulators out there are good enough on just about any device. You're the one who's trying to push for perfection without effort. They just grabbed some hardware that they knew was going to work (since it worked for the DS) and threw them on it, with little effort, which is what is most cost effective for nintendo. That's not stupid, that's smart.

Again in this situation it is not subjective. It literally is easier. Prove how it is not.


I let you get away with this in other posts, posts, but not this one. That's a fallacy of null-hypothesis. The burden of proof is on you to prove your positive claim. I've illustrated, quite clearly, despite the lack of need, that it is not easier for all people (most likely, the majority of people).

I can and have reproduced it. If you read what I am saying I am telling you I have had many computers have the same problems with emulators. Thus a repeatable and reproducible problem. It is not a PEBKAC error, as the problem does not exist between the keyboard and chair but in the computer itself, or more specifically the emulator but I feel like you might be having a ID-10-T error.


If you cannot tell me how to reproduce it, it is not reproduceable. You're saying you don't even know where the breakdown is, which means you can't even reproduce it. Now you're saying you can reproduce it. Therefore, you can tell me how to reproduce it. Or can you not? Show me the money.

I don't even know why we are arguing about this, you have literally admitted that emulators are not perfect either. Show me a perfect emulator that does not have issues.


None, not even the SNES remake. There is no perfect machine. However, we can evaluate the degree of flaw and make statements about that.

The shoe doesn't fit. There isn't even a shoe here, just an argument for some reason on emulators, how to use them and you implying that I don't know how to use them. If thats all you are going to do then just stop talking.


Because you don't like admitting you don't know how to use them properly? Or rather, not how to use the emulator properly, but the device on which you're running the emulator? If you're going to complain about something, when you are the one at fault, you are going to get called out.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

" I cannot stop an external program from messing with the cycles that my program needs. You need to identify the processes that are made by other lazy programs that have not been properly optimized (have fun with that), then shutting down those processes. Not all external processes are at fault, just specific ones. "

That is complicated and defeats your argument that using an emulator on a PC is easier to do than using a SNES Classic. Congrats on beating yourself.

"I'm not saying they're stupid, i'm saying they're being cost effective for themselves. They're not bothering with other technology, since this is good enough for their goals (since optimizing the price for us isn't one of those goals) , just like, for most people, the emulators out there are good enough on just about any device. You're the one who's trying to push for perfection without effort. They just grabbed some hardware that they knew was going to work (since it worked for the DS) and threw them on it, with little effort, which is what is most cost effective for nintendo. That's not stupid, that's smart. "

So what is the problem exactly? Nintendo used hardware they new would work with what they were trying to do and designed coding to work on that. What is your argument here?

"I let you get away with this in other posts, posts, but not this one. That's a fallacy of null-hypothesis. The burden of proof is on you to prove your positive claim. I've illustrated, quite clearly, despite the lack of need, that it is not easier for all people (most likely, the majority of people). "

Get away with what? You are the one challenging what I am saying thus the burden of proof is on you. You have not illiustrated anything at all other than you are wanting to argue for the sake of arguing. And if that is the case I will be your Huckleberry.

"If you cannot tell me how to reproduce it, it is not reproduceable. You're saying you don't even know where the breakdown is, which means you can't even reproduce it. Now you're saying you can reproduce it. Therefore, you can tell me how to reproduce it. Or can you not? Show me the money. "

I have told you exactly how I have reproduced it. I have downloaded and installed the same emulator, i.e. Snes9x, ZSNESW on multiple machines and had the same results. Some games have altered audio, or graphical glitches or frame rate drops due to either bad emulation or the roms were not dumped correctly. This is not something, me as a user should have to fix.

"None, not even the SNES remake. There is no perfect machine. However, we can evaluate the degree of flaw and make statements about that. "

I never said the SNES Classic was a perfect machine. It has some drawbacks like not being able to play old SNES Carts and not being able to officially add more games. It doesn't have a menu/rewind button on the controller and the controller cords are too short. But when it comes to how it emulates and plays the games that are on it, it is miles ahead of emulator programs that we have already discussed and you have yet to prove how it isn't. Again the burden of proof is on you as you are the one challenging my statement.

"Because you don't like admitting you don't know how to use them properly? Or rather, not how to use the emulator properly, but the device on which you're running the emulator? If you're going to complain about something, when you are the one at fault, you are going to get called out."

Sure dude, if that is the only way you can understand it. I have been using emulators for 19 years but somehow in those years I have some how never figured out how to use them properly according to you. If anyone is complaining about something, it is you. You are calling me out for some non existent fallacy.

Here is an article you should read as you seem to think I am making this shit up:
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/how-does-emulation-work/
There are other's that discuss this too.

You seem to think I am anti-emulation and am apparently too stupid to know how to do it properly. I can tell you I am not anti-emulation. And whatever you think of my intelligence level is no concern of mine. I can tell you I have used almost every emulator you can think of to play classic games. Mainly because I have been looking for one that will play those old games like the original systems do, and so far none I have come across do that. I have looked up sites that give tips on how to properly configure those emulators and they don't help any. Yes there are benefits to emulation like save states, graphics filters and others. But none are perfect and there is always a detail or 2 they get wrong or can't emulate correctly. I honestly don't know why you are arguing with me on this. If you don't want to get an SNES Classic, then don't get one. Why argue with me on this to justify your bias against it?

Edited Friday by Q
Q
 

You have not illiustrated anything at all other than you are wanting to argue for the sake of arguing.


He openly admitted to this in another thread after I started dismissing it, FYI.

Posted Friday by nullfather
nullfather
 

Good to know, thanks lol.

Posted Friday by Q
Q
 

That is complicated and defeats your argument that using an emulator on a PC is easier to do than using a SNES Classic. Congrats on beating yourself.


You should be aware of this outside of using an emulator. That's the problem. I'm willing to bet that the biggest one in your case is your web browser.

So what is the problem exactly? Nintendo used hardware they new would work with what they were trying to do and designed coding to work on that. What is your argument here?


It's not a problem, but you're suggesting that they designed it with cost effectiveness in mind to our benefit, not their own.

I never said the SNES Classic was a perfect machine. It has some drawbacks like not being able to play old SNES Carts and not being able to officially add more games. It doesn't have a menu/rewind button on the controller and the controller cords are too short. But when it comes to how it emulates and plays the games that are on it, it is miles ahead of emulator programs that we have already discussed and you have yet to prove how it isn't. Again the burden of proof is on you as you are the one challenging my statement.


You made the initial claim that it's better than emulator, therefore the burden of proof is on you.

Sure dude, if that is the only way you can understand it. I have been using emulators for 19 years but somehow in those years I have some how never figured out how to use them properly according to you. If anyone is complaining about something, it is you. You are calling me out for some non existent fallacy.


I've been using them for about just as long. I've also educated myself on the underlying systems, as well as the systems the emulator runs on. The conclusion I have with you is, you're missing information about the systems they run on. It's quite clear.

There are other's that discuss this too.


The masses aren't always right, especially if they're under-educated.

You seem to think I am anti-emulation and am apparently too stupid to know how to do it properly. I can tell you I am not anti-emulation. And whatever you think of my intelligence level is no concern of mine. I can tell you I have used almost every emulator you can think of to play classic games. Mainly because I have been looking for one that will play those old games like the original systems do, and so far none I have come across do that. I have looked up sites that give tips on how to properly configure those emulators and they don't help any. Yes there are benefits to emulation like save states, graphics filters and others. But none are perfect and there is always a detail or 2 they get wrong or can't emulate correctly. I honestly don't know why you are arguing with me on this.


You're definitely taking a stance that emulation isnt' good enough when it's not first party.

If you don't want to get an SNES Classic, then don't get one. Why argue with me on this to justify your bias against it?


Because you're making some pretty bold statements.



Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"You should be aware of this outside of using an emulator. That's the problem. I'm willing to bet that the biggest one in your case is your web browser. "

No.

"It's not a problem, but you're suggesting that they designed it with cost effectiveness in mind to our benefit, not their own. "

No I wasn't. I said it was cost effective for them, and for what they were wanting to do with the product.

"I've been using them for about just as long. I've also educated myself on the underlying systems, as well as the systems the emulator runs on. The conclusion I have with you is, you're missing information about the systems they run on. It's quite clear. "

No. And you've yet to prove me wrong.

"The masses aren't always right, especially if they're under-educated. "

So everyone but you is wrong? SonyBot, is that you?

"You're definitely taking a stance that emulation isnt' good enough when it's not first party. "

You are absolutely correct on that.

"Because you're making some pretty bold statements. "

Don't you think you are being a bit dramatic?

Posted Friday by Q
Q
 

No I wasn't. I said it was cost effective for them, and for what they were wanting to do with the product.


You left it in the context of benefit over emulator.

No. And you've yet to prove me wrong.


Not a problem on my system, so clearly the difference is between our systems. My computer is ancient, and it was outdated before purchase, and even then it wasn't on par with the market on it's release. I got it as a backup and a dev machine (make products based on the worst computer you can get, then you know your customer will most likely meet minimum requirements [and because i was being offered a programming job and was already short on cash]). Good enough.

So everyone but you is wrong? SonyBot, is that you?


No, but it says your argument is invalid: rather we're on a neutral position. Don't strawman.

You are absolutely correct on that.


And you've yet to provide any evidence on that claim.

Don't you think you are being a bit dramatic?


Nope. I came in asking curious questions, and now we're all butthurt.

Posted Friday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"You left it in the context of benefit over emulator. "

What does that even mean?

"Not a problem on my system, so clearly the difference is between our systems. My computer is ancient, and it was outdated before purchase, and even then it wasn't on par with the market on it's release. I got it as a backup and a dev machine (make products based on the worst computer you can get, then you know your customer will most likely meet minimum requirements [and because i was being offered a programming job and was already short on cash]). Good enough. "

Good for you.

"No, but it says your argument is invalid: rather we're on a neutral position. Don't strawman."

How so?

"And you've yet to provide any evidence on that claim. "

The SNES Classic. Literally the very thing you have been arguing pointlessly with me about this whole time.

"Nope. I came in asking curious questions, and now we're all butthurt."

You were the one making assumptions and making comments of shoes fitting.

Posted Friday by Q
Q
 

What does that even mean?


I'm saying that if you were not saying that the remake was made with the cost-effectiveness to the consumer as a central design constraint, you did a very, very bad job at saying what you really meant.

Good for you.


Asked for evidence, there you are.

How so?


Your argument was that you're likely to be right because others agree with you. I'm pointing out that it holds a small bit of weight, but, overall, inconsequential.


The SNES Classic. Literally the very thing you have been arguing pointlessly with me about this whole time.


Circular logic is not evidence. Sorry.

ou were the one making assumptions and making comments of shoes fitting.


You were butthurt before that.

Posted Sunday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

im not even sure whats going here any more.

as far as that comic goes... I dont expect the average person to be able to emulate anything. So I can see the need for plug in and play systems like the snes mini.

the problem Ive had in the past is that my save files for a couple of playstation one games get corrupted when emulating on the pc. One of the reasons why I bought a vita to own the official game.

Posted Sunday by s.o.h.
s.o.h.
 

im not even sure whats going here any more.


A wild argument about whether or not there's even an objective advantage between this and traditional emulation.

as far as that comic goes... I dont expect the average person to be able to emulate anything. So I can see the need for plug in and play systems like the snes mini.


I've yet to find someone who can find an emulator, but not run it reasonably well. As for stability, well, that comes from independent knowledge which is necessary to get non-emulated games running equally smoothly. That said, there are people out there that can't find emulator software.

the problem Ive had in the past is that my save files for a couple of playstation one games get corrupted when emulating on the pc.


Due to crash or something else?



Posted Sunday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

I'm not entirely sure. It's been a couple years since I've emulated something. It was very frustrating though looking back now.

The issue I have now is that I don't like playing games on the small vita screen. I might purchase the pstv later on to combat that.

Posted Sunday by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 

"I'm saying that if you were not saying that the remake was made with the cost-effectiveness to the consumer as a central design constraint, you did a very, very bad job at saying what you really meant. "

1. I was talking about cost effectiveness to them producing the unit.

2. Who is to know if NIntendo could have used cheaper hardware, we sure don't know. It might have been more expensive to use custom hardware designed just for the SNES Classic vs using hardware they already have access to.

3. I explained it just fine, you are the one having a hard time understanding the conversation flow.

"Asked for evidence, there you are. "

Any computer matches that. What you didn't tell us were the SPECIFIC programs you had to stop from running to stop interfering with the emulator's processing. You didn't tell us what Emulator and version you were using or what roms. You didn't tell us what Windows version you are using with what updates it currenty has. What's your bios version for your motherboard, and video card? What version of the Video drivers do you have? Audio drivers?

Is this reproducible? No 2 computers run the exact same. What works on your computer is NOT guaranteed to work on another. I'm not making this up, you can literally google emulator fixes and get alot of different answers.

And then at the end of the day it may not run as good as simply buying a first party product like the SNES Classic that does run games exactly how they are supposed to run.

"Your argument was that you're likely to be right because others agree with you. I'm pointing out that it holds a small bit of weight, but, overall, inconsequential. "

While you have a point that just because alot of people agree with you, you may not always be in the right, but in this case I am in the right. Simply saying that the masses are uneducated because they dont follow your line of logic is both wrong and narrow minded. It also gives me insight to your way of thinking.

"Circular logic is not evidence. Sorry. "

Ok, how about a Original Super Nintendo. First party and it runs it's games how it's supposed to. Remember we originally started arguing about this because I said it's easier to use one of these than an emulator program.

"You were butthurt before that."

Are you sure it was me? You were the one that starting dishing out some insults so I think you were the one who was butthurt at first to start attacking on a personal level.

"A wild argument about whether or not there's even an objective advantage between this and traditional emulation. "

This being a first party product that plays games originally made for it or a first party emulator box like the SNES Classic compared to an emulator.

"I've yet to find someone who can find an emulator, but not run it reasonably well. As for stability, well, that comes from independent knowledge which is necessary to get non-emulated games running equally smoothly. That said, there are people out there that can't find emulator software. "

None of that is true.

Edited Sunday by Q
Q
 

And to continue my point about people having problems with emulation vs using first party products, i.e. original hardware, here are some links to discussions where people are discussing the issues with emulation vs real hardware:
https://www.reddit.com/r/retrogaming/comments/2zy9xe/emulation_vs_console/ http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/2069153 http://www.retrogamescollector.com/your-opinion-is-emulation-better-than-the-real-thing/ https://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/emulator-versus-actual-console-snes-1432980/ https://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?/topic/288788-emulation-vs-original-hardware/
Can we agree that this whole argument has really been pointless? What point are you trying to make?

Posted Sunday by Q
Q
 

2. Who is to know if NIntendo could have used cheaper hardware, we sure don't know. It might have been more expensive to use custom hardware designed just for the SNES Classic vs using hardware they already have access to.


If that were the case, many other systems nintendo made would have not been considered failures. Nintendo has a habit of not including dev cost into the price of their products, which makes it cheap for their core customers, but it comes with a litany of other issues.

3. I explained it just fine, you are the one having a hard time understanding the conversation flow.


I'd say this is the most subjective line in the entire post, but, frankly, it's easier to point out that this is unverifiable, though i set myself up for this response.

Any computer matches that. What you didn't tell us were the SPECIFIC programs you had to stop from running to stop interfering with the emulator's processing. You didn't tell us what Emulator and version you were using or what roms. You didn't tell us what Windows version you are using with what updates it currenty has. What's your bios version for your motherboard, and video card? What version of the Video drivers do you have? Audio drivers?


On my computer, firefox, maybe skype and teamspeak. But your computer doesn't run the same programs. But, most of those factors mentioned are entirely irrelevant (especially GPU, since GPU only handles the pre-rendered frames processed by the snes emulator), given the primary issue i see with emulators is I/O clogging, which comes from disk access. There's no way to be absolutely complete in this, but i'll point out i've had very little trouble getting just about any snes emulator running flawlessly on any system i've had physical access to. Whether that was running windows XP on an old P4, or this Acer Aspire One that can't even handle facebook, or some high fidelity alienware computer. You're the first person I've run into with any issues. SNES emulators have incredibly low system requirements, for example, the xsnes9x system requirements:

System Requirements
-------------------
Windows 98/2000/XP/Vista/7.
DirectX 6.1b or later.
300MHz processor BARE MINIMUM (1GHz+ rec for best settings.)
16MB RAM BARE MINIMUM.
DirectSound capable sound card.


So, if you're having trouble, clearly what you're dealing with is a rogue process that's messing with way more than the snes emulator. This process needs to be identified to prevent stuttering in non-emulated games.

This being a first party product that plays games originally made for it or a first party emulator box like the SNES Classic compared to an emulator.


The games were not designed with future emulators in mind.

None of that is true.


Yes it is.

I'm not entirely sure. It's been a couple years since I've emulated something. It was very frustrating though looking back now.

The issue I have now is that I don't like playing games on the small vita screen. I might purchase the pstv later on to combat that.


The reason i ask is because corrupted saves on an emulator, especially post release, usually means that the emulation itself didn't fail, but maybe the emulator crashed or you had a hardware issue (bad HDD). If you're still using that rig, you might want to investigate to ensure it's not the latter.

Posted Sunday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

And to continue my point about people having problems with emulation vs using first party products, i.e. original hardware, here are some links to discussions where people are discussing the issues with emulation vs real hardware:


Most of the links aren't even focused on SNES. "Real thing better than emulation" is a bit of an axiom at this point, but that means little. This still doesn't change the fact that these physical machines are still emulators, thus will come with the same authenticity challenges, which have been pretty much ironed out in 8 and 16bit eras.

Can we agree that this whole argument has really been pointless? What point are you trying to make?


No, it hasn't been. The point is, i wanted to know why this was happening. You got incredibly dishonest about why. From what I can see, the only reason why is because of legality (anti-piracy) and novelty (it's official). Both of these points are nullified when we start hacking the thing apart. So the only real reason, from what I can see, is the third reason: "Because we can." Which, i can respect, but there's no reason to lie about it.

Posted Sunday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"If that were the case, many other systems nintendo made would have not been considered failures. Nintendo has a habit of not including dev cost into the price of their products, which makes it cheap for their core customers, but it comes with a litany of other issues. "

Examples?

"I'd say this is the most subjective line in the entire post, but, frankly, it's easier to point out that this is unverifiable, though i set myself up for this response. "

How is it not verifiable? Simply start at the beginning of this argument and work your way down.

"You're the first person I've run into with any issues. SNES emulators have incredibly low system requirements, for example, the xsnes9x system requirements:"

You should google sometime.

"So, if you're having trouble, clearly what you're dealing with is a rogue process that's messing with way more than the snes emulator. This process needs to be identified to prevent stuttering in non-emulated games. "

This rogue process is about as real as your point and equally as elusive to actually isolate.

"The games were not designed with future emulators in mind. "

Is any game? That's a pointless statement.

"Yes it is."

Here we go, I say no it isnt, and you say yes it is. It's a perpetual loop, so lets try to stop that now:

"I've yet to find someone who can find an emulator, but not run it reasonably well."

So lets analyse this statement. You are on the position that emulators are as easy to use as the SNES Classic edition. THe mere fact that you say that it's hard to find someone that knows how to run them "Reasonably well" defeates that point right there. Second, is that the user's fault or the emulator?


"As for stability, well, that comes from independent knowledge which is necessary to get non-emulated games running equally smoothly."

Again, not true. An emulator program is downloaded as the program, so if it doesn't run in a stable form right off the bat, then again it is not easier to use than first party products like the SNES Classic.

"That said, there are people out there that can't find emulator software."

It is literally as easy as going to google and typing "SNES Emulator". You would have to be legally blind to not be able to find them. Infact I would say that even legally blind people could find them.

"The reason i ask is because corrupted saves on an emulator, especially post release, usually means that the emulation itself didn't fail, but maybe the emulator crashed or you had a hardware issue (bad HDD). If you're still using that rig, you might want to investigate to ensure it's not the latter."

This statement reinforces so many of my points.


Posted Sunday by Q
Q
 

"Most of the links aren't even focused on SNES. "Real thing better than emulation" is a bit of an axiom at this point, but that means little. This still doesn't change the fact that these physical machines are still emulators, thus will come with the same authenticity challenges, which have been pretty much ironed out in 8 and 16bit eras. "

Emulators in general is what we are talking abot here right? Or JUST the SNES emulator's which still aren't perfect?

"No, it hasn't been. The point is, i wanted to know why this was happening."

What this argument? It's pretty easy to see how it started.

"You got incredibly dishonest about why."

Here we go with more generalizations. Show me EXACTLY where I was dishonest.

"From what I can see, the only reason why is because of legality (anti-piracy) and novelty (it's official)."

Again, I have never said I was anti-piracy. I said I don't condone it, and that's because I will always take the real thing over an emulator.

"Both of these points are nullified when we start hacking the thing apart. So the only real reason, from what I can see, is the third reason: "Because we can." Which, i can respect, but there's no reason to lie about it.""

Again, show me where I am lying. This whole time we have been talking about emulator programs, not roms. Are you confused? Why do you keep jumping to generalizations and insults?



Edited Sunday by Q
Q
 

The reason i ask is because corrupted saves on an emulator, especially post release, usually means that the emulation itself didn't fail, but maybe the emulator crashed or you had a hardware issue (bad HDD). If you're still using that rig, you might want to investigate to ensure it's not the latter.


I Dont have that rig. But like I said I dont expect the average person to find an emulator let alone solve any problems that may occur when running that emulator.

end of the day the simplicity and the ease of use of these systems will always make them more popular to the masses than any downloadable emulator. Which is funny because these plug in play systems are a helluva lot more limited software wise.

Posted Sunday by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

Examples?


I think either the gamecube or the wii was considered a failure, because of this, but i'm having trouble finding the articles now (they were unpopular enough back in the day). The brought in "profit," but it had trouble paying off the dev costs.

How is it not verifiable? Simply start at the beginning of this argument and work your way down.


Interpretation. Also, null hypthesis.

You should google sometime.


Failure is always over-representative. Just watch the news: people rarely open their mouths about good things, but always do for problems.

Also, why would i go looking for people having trouble with emulators?

This rogue process is about as real as your point and equally as elusive to actually isolate.


perfmon.exe /res

I found that in windows 7. we have top and iotop for linux. As for mac, i really don't know, as I don't use mac. As for the processes being real, we know they are. There's been plenty of literature on the topic, and it's one of the major reasons why people "root" their android devices (since these rogue processes cause performance issues, but are usually installed by OEM and can't be removed without root).

Is any game? That's a pointless statement.


And i quote:

This being a first party product that plays games originally made for it or a first party emulator box like the SNES Classic compared to an emulator.


Here we go, I say no it isnt, and you say yes it is. It's a perpetual loop, so lets try to stop that now:


Precisely why went with contraindiction, because simply saying "you're wrong" is plain annoying.

So lets analyse this statement. You are on the position that emulators are as easy to use as the SNES Classic edition. THe mere fact that you say that it's hard to find someone that knows how to run them "Reasonably well" defeates that point right there.


I didn't say it was hard to find people who could run them reasonably well. I said it was hard to find someone who could not run them well after finding them, since the person who finds it hard to run them reasonably well would find google searching difficult. Especially seeing as almost any given issue could be googled, if it existed.

Second, is that the user's fault or the emulator?


User's. RTFM.

Again, not true. An emulator program is downloaded as the program, so if it doesn't run in a stable form right off the bat, then again it is not easier to use than first party products like the SNES Classic.


They do. The stability issue comes in from the machine it's running on. Most people are OK with stability issues overall, so they don't bother fixing them before messing with an emulator. Old emulated games like megaman are more tied to timing than, say, skyrim. Even fighting games, anymore, have increasingly large input buffers to compensate for these kinds of issues. Look at, say, Dead or Alive 5.

It is literally as easy as going to google and typing "SNES Emulator". You would have to be legally blind to not be able to find them. Infact I would say that even legally blind people could find them.


Yet people still find this task difficult. Honestly, i don't think it's difficulty, so much as laziness or even fear.

This statement reinforces so many of my points.


Which ones? I said that the emulation usually doesn't fail, but, rather, the program crashes (most likely external cause, like RAM overload) or hardware issue (external cause by default).

That said, I thought we were talking about SNES, not PS1. If we're going to talk about a system that even the first party won't make an emulator for, we're not even on the same topic.

Emulators in general is what we are talking abot here right? Or JUST the SNES emulator's which still aren't perfect?


I thought SNES, as talking about anything other than SNES is counter productive, seeing as that's the whole damn point to the whole post. Anything newer than 16bit isn't even considered fully developed. I still get updates for my n64 emulators, but not NES, SNES, GB, etc.

What this argument? It's pretty easy to see how it started.


No, the original post. Are you this dense for real, or are you playing me?

Again, I have never said I was anti-piracy. I said I don't condone it, and that's because I will always take the real thing over an emulator.


This discussion is about people in general, not you. I don't care sing "yo, ho, and blow the man down" every day in the shower. I don't care about you, persoanally. I'm more interested in the overall point and how it influences the population at large.

Why do you keep jumping to generalizations and insults?


Oh saintly one. How can I improve myself so as to never throw insults and generalizations out at people who don't do the same to--oh... I assume you don't consider strawman attacks generalizations? But why are we trying to talk about the conversation instead of points in the conversation?

Edited Sunday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

I Dont have that rig. But like I said I dont expect the average person to find an emulator let alone solve any problems that may occur when running that emulator.

end of the day the simplicity and the ease of use of these systems will always make them more popular to the masses than any downloadable emulator. Which is funny because these plug in play systems are a helluva lot more limited software wise.


Honestly, seeing people who have trouble with google tells me that they're also less likely to play cable roulette. And to add to it, almost everyone (if not everyone) i know who's bought one of these things, it was as a gift. I directly told my girlfriend not to bother, since it's not worth it. This was after she told me she had trouble finding one, and was relieved to know that it was going to collect dust.

Another practical point, though, would be if a parent or such wants to allow their child to experience their own childhood without allowing computer access.

A funny story is that a buddy of mine tried to get his (almost) step-daughter to play pokemon yellow on her 2ds. She couldn't read english, so when she started getting into his system he had trouble controlling her. she was able to battle, even figured out how to release pokemon iirc, and, worse yet, save. Didn't have a practical idea of what she was doing other than battling pokemon and making caught ones disappear. She memorized the locations of all the menus. Great fun, right there. It was halarious hearing him yell "no, ####, no! No, ####, what are you doing? やめて!"

Posted Sunday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

with google tells me that they're also less likely to play cable roulette.

explain. Its just an HDMI cable. Plugging it is faster than googeling an emulator issue, finding the solution, applying said solution, and trouble shooting a couple of games to make sure its no longer a problem.

I can understand cable roulette if it were the original console with the original wires but that is not the case.

Posted Sunday by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

explain. Its just an HDMI cable. Plugging it is faster than googeling an emulator issue, finding the solution, applying said solution, and trouble shooting a couple of games to make sure its no longer a problem.

I can understand cable roulette if it were the original console with the original wires but that is not the case.


Most homes i've been in still, even with HDMI, still have more devices than ports though I'll give you the fact that HDMI has improved things immensely. However, we're also talking about nostalgia, here, and a lot of these people still probably have their original system, just as i do (except, i always wanted a snes but could never get my hands on one, because when i would've finally been able to, the PS1 was out and everyone was trying to sell their SNES for launch prices).

Posted Sunday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

which reminds me:









Posted Sunday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

still have more devices than ports though .

From my experience this has never been an issue. I dont own a console right now but when I game with my friends they just swap the HDMI cord to what ever console they want to use. Which reminds me that its been about a year since Ive gamed with friends....

IIRC my parents tv only has one port that is attached to their cable box but that box has a 2-3 HDMI inputs for multiple devices.

I am curious to see how far these mini consoles go. I would love a plug in play gamecube with its top 12 games. Mostly because gamecube games are expensive these days.

Posted Sunday by s.o.h.
s.o.h.
 

From my experience this has never been an issue. I dont own a console right now but when I game with my friends they just swap the HDMI cord to what ever console they want to use. Which reminds me that its been about a year since Ive gamed with friends....


Depends on your setup. Most people still prefer pulling cables through the holes in the back of a wooden structure that doesn't have proper airflow for the devices in their "entertainment center."

IIRC my parents tv only has one port that is attached to their cable box but that box has a 2-3 HDMI inputs for multiple devices.


And essentialy, thanks to HDMI, we've replaced cable hell with about 3 or 4 remotes and people have trouble figuring out which devices have to be set to what inputs, despute how easy it actually is to follow an HDMI cable. I swear, people go absolutely braindead on this.

I am curious to see how far these mini consoles go. I would love a plug in play gamecube with its top 12 games. Mostly because gamecube games are expensive these days.


I'm willing to bet we won't see the gamecube for a long time. Modern ARMs are not good enough to emulate the cube, so you'll be stuck with an x86 emu for a long time, and Nintendo seems to be stuck on ARM. TBH, I don't blame them, as as soon as I started working with real ARM assembly (instead of that THUMB crap) I began to love the system. I just wish it was a bit more accessible. x86 will always hold a place in my heart for being my first arch i've learned, but it, frankly, is absolute junk. It's so junky that x86 processor running now only emulate the processor: instructions use a "recompile mode emulator" in the pipeline to convert the instructions to the real CPU's instruction set. It happens to be the fastest thing we have, and it has backwards compatibility, but those are probably the only reason why we still bother with it. UEFI is destroying half of what little charm it has left (and UEFI is the biggest problem with ARMs).

EDIT: And we may never really see the remakes for the PS3s generation, because Moore's law is slowing, but Wirth's law is not, which I think is the whole reason behind UEFI.

Edited Sunday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

I really hope youre wrong about the gamecube lol. But lets be honest I would only use it to play resident evil 4 for the millionth time.

Posted Sunday by s.o.h.
s.o.h.
 

I hope i'm wrong, too. Don't forget, if you have a wii, there's hope.

There's also another possibility, if they were to actually remake the systems themselves, but put some sort of up-converter on board so you could use HDMI. I'm sure IBM still has the plans for Gekko, seeing as people are still able to find the old PS/2 manuals.

Posted Sunday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

Ah yeah, the wii and wii-u's CPUs are upgraded versions, so they know right where those plans are.

Posted Sunday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"I think either the gamecube or the wii was considered a failure, because of this, but i'm having trouble finding the articles now (they were unpopular enough back in the day). The brought in "profit," but it had trouble paying off the dev costs."

I doubt it was the Wii, I can see the GameCube possibly being considered a hardware failure. But you have to keep in mind that Gmae console companies don't make their money off of the hardware. The original XBOX and PS3 were both sold at a tremendous loss.

"And i quote:"

I see what you did there. Nice trap. Let me then explain what I meant, games that are Released for 1st party consoles and emulator boxes.

"I didn't say it was hard to find people who could run them reasonably well. I said it was hard to find someone who could not run them well after finding them, since the person who finds it hard to run them reasonably well would find google searching difficult. Especially seeing as almost any given issue could be googled, if it existed. "

Then I misunderstood your statement, as I re-read it I do see you saying that. However the way it is worded on culd possibly think you meant that people could not find emulators. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

"User's. RTFM."

So angry. Much hostility.

"Which ones? I said that the emulation usually doesn't fail, but, rather, the program crashes (most likely external cause, like RAM overload) or hardware issue (external cause by default).

That said, I thought we were talking about SNES, not PS1. If we're going to talk about a system that even the first party won't make an emulator for, we're not even on the same topic. "

That emulators are not as easy to use as a SNES Classic. perhaps you should RTFM.

"I thought SNES, as talking about anything other than SNES is counter productive, seeing as that's the whole damn point to the whole post. Anything newer than 16bit isn't even considered fully developed. I still get updates for my n64 emulators, but not NES, SNES, GB, etc. "

Ok, make sure you remember this.

"No, the original post. Are you this dense for real, or are you playing me? "

Now we are back to the original post? You've been derailing this thing for a while and now you want to get back to that? And there is the insults again. Why are you so angry?

"This discussion is about people in general, not you. I don't care sing "yo, ho, and blow the man down" every day in the shower. I don't care about you, persoanally. I'm more interested in the overall point and how it influences the population at large. "

"Oh saintly one. How can I improve myself so as to never throw insults and generalizations out at people who don't do the same to--oh... I assume you don't consider strawman attacks generalizations? But why are we trying to talk about the conversation instead of points in the conversation?"

The population here at GameTalk? You keep telling me I am strawmaning you, but it is you who is doing that. You keep accusing me of lying and being dishonest, stupid, dense and whatever else. You have yet to prove my original point wrong:

The SNES Classic is easier to use and provides better emulation than any emulator programs.

Done, moving on.

You should really go to anger management or something though.

Posted Monday by Q
Q
 

I doubt it was the Wii, I can see the GameCube possibly being considered a hardware failure. But you have to keep in mind that Gmae console companies don't make their money off of the hardware. The original XBOX and PS3 were both sold at a tremendous loss.


I think it was the wii, simply because i remember people in the comments objecting like the writer of the article was committing heresy, despite explaining why it was a failure despite high sales. I don't recall the cube winning in sales, but i could still be wrong. It was a while ago. Either way, it shows that development costs don't really influence the price. They have a huge incentive not to invest in new tech all to often. Doing my research, we're finding the switch is ARM based, which so are the new NES, SNES, and all the DS.

That emulators are not as easy to use as a SNES Classic. perhaps you should RTFM.


I don't see how the problems i cited actually affect the ease of use of emulators, especially when it wasn't even a SNES emulator. If my microwave is busted, that doesn't make it inherently more difficult to make minute rice. If he had a hardware issue, it could be due to age of the machine, environment the machine is in, or even the power (i've had alot of hardware issues that i can point to the wiring of the house as the cause [free tip, surge protectors are a joke]). If it crashed, it's likely to be a fault in the OS (most likely resources issue [ie, rogue processes], rather than a bug).

Ok, make sure you remember this.


Been there the whole time, mate.

You have yet to prove my original point wrong:

The SNES Classic is easier to use and provides better emulation than any emulator programs.


I've provided evidence to my claim, which is more than fair, seeing as it's illogical to require burden of proof from me. Frankly, I have no idea why you fail to understand this. Are you just too invested in this thing?

Posted Monday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"I think it was the wii, simply because i remember people in the comments objecting like the writer of the article was committing heresy, despite explaining why it was a failure despite high sales. I don't recall the cube winning in sales, but i could still be wrong. It was a while ago. Either way, it shows that development costs don't really influence the price."

I would really like to read that article. The Wii was basically 2 GameCubes put together and used hardware that was not expensive even for 2006 standards. But the GameCube didn't sell all that well as it fell behind the original XBOX is sales back then.

"I don't see how the problems i cited actually affect the ease of use of emulators, especially when it wasn't even a SNES emulator. If my microwave is busted, that doesn't make it inherently more difficult to make minute rice. If he had a hardware issue, it could be due to age of the machine, environment the machine is in, or even the power (i've had alot of hardware issues that i can point to the wiring of the house as the cause [free tip, surge protectors are a joke]). If it crashed, it's likely to be a fault in the OS (most likely resources issue [ie, rogue processes], rather than a bug). "

The problems you have cited, i.e. hardware conflicts, affect the emulators by slowing their frame-rates or not allowing them to operate as well as a first party product, or so you say. Thus making it more difficult to use than something like a SNES Classic which is literally taking it out of the box, plugging 2 cables into your TV, selecting your language preference and then playing the games. There is no configuring of hardware or software needed to get the best performance out of it.

"Been there the whole time, mate. "

More like you got back to it.

"I've provided evidence to my claim, which is more than fair, seeing as it's illogical to require burden of proof from me. Frankly, I have no idea why you fail to understand this. Are you just too invested in this thing?"

That is not how this works. You can't some into a thread and beat your chest like a Gorilla and expect people to prove their points to you when you challenge them. As the challenger the burden to prove me wrong in on you. It is on you to show how my statement is wrong, not the other way around.

I think you are too invested in your biased against the SNES Classic that you are unwilling to see the advantages it offers.

Posted Monday by Q
Q
 

I would really like to read that article. The Wii was basically 2 GameCubes put together and used hardware that was not expensive even for 2006 standards. But the GameCube didn't sell all that well as it fell behind the original XBOX is sales back then.


Yeah, it had a click-bait title (which doesn't mean it's not accurate, it just means they had a clickable title), so it was lost.

The problems you have cited, i.e. hardware conflicts, affect the emulators by slowing their frame-rates or not allowing them to operate as well as a first party product, or so you say. Thus making it more difficult to use than something like a SNES Classic which is literally taking it out of the box, plugging 2 cables into your TV, selecting your language preference and then playing the games. There is no configuring of hardware or software needed to get the best performance out of it.


These problems also affect first party products. I remember having issues with virtual console games running well on my wii, and that was long before i CFWed it. But, you miss the point, which is that these issues should already be solved by you independent of the emulator, because they will affect other programs on your computer. The same stuttering should happen just as frequently, or worse, when running games meant for the system you're running the emulator on.

That is not how this works. You can't some into a thread and beat your chest like a Gorilla and expect people to prove their points to you when you challenge them. As the challenger the burden to prove me wrong in on you. It is on you to show how my statement is wrong, not the other way around.


No. It is on you, the one who makes an original claim, to prove it. The counter argument is burdened to dismantle all your points. If I made a thread claiming a teapot in space exists that brought forth all life on this planet, am i not obligated to provide evidence of that claim? If not, then I could just as easily make a whole new thread suggesting that the snes box is a secret fbi plot to control your minds, and then without giving evidence, burden you with proving that i'm insane.

I think you are too invested in your biased against the SNES Classic that you are unwilling to see the advantages it offers.


I have nothing against it. I just see no tanglible advantages to it.

Posted Monday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"But, you miss the point, which is that these issues should already be solved by you independent of the emulator, because they will affect other programs on your computer."

No. Can you solve it yourself, yes ofcourse. But my point that emulators are not as good as original first party products stands. Your average user is not going to go through the process of trouble shooting their hardware and killing processes.

"No. It is on you, the one who makes an original claim, to prove it. The counter argument is burdened to dismantle all your points. If I made a thread claiming a teapot in space exists that brought forth all life on this planet, am i not obligated to provide evidence of that claim? If not, then I could just as easily make a whole new thread suggesting that the snes box is a secret fbi plot to control your minds, and then without giving evidence, burden you with proving that i'm insane."

You and your analogies man. IF you were to make such a thread making such a claim it would be up to me or whoever disagrees to provide evidence proving you wrong. That is how it work. And I would love to see a post about a SNES being a mind control device. That's just hilarious.

"I have nothing against it. I just see no tanglible advantages to it."

You obviously do have something against it to argue with me for so many days about it. Whether or not you see the advantages to it is moot when so many other people do. Again, as I have stated before, if you don't see the advantages to getting a SNES Classic, then don't get one. It clearly is not made for you.

Now are we done? Can we get back to my original post about the SNES Classic being hacked and being able to add games to it?

Edited Monday by Q
Q
 

No. Can you solve it yourself, yes ofcourse. But my point that emulators are not as good as original first party products stands. Your average user is not going to go through the process of trouble shooting their hardware and killing processes.


You are juding emulators by impossible standards, all because of user error. And, as i said, the hardware issues potentially affect the first party products as well. And i do know from the wii that process related issues also affect first party products (especially when it got hot).

You and your analogies man. IF you were to make such a thread making such a claim it would be up to me or whoever disagrees to provide evidence proving you wrong. That is how it work. And I would love to see a post about a SNES being a mind control device. That's just hilarious.


Actually making the post would be boneheaded. That's not how it works, it's just how you want it to work. So you basically make claims and refuse to back them up. Thus, you're dishonest. Good, we're done here.



Posted Monday by Kohlrak
Kohlrak
 

"You are juding emulators by impossible standards, all because of user error. And, as i said, the hardware issues potentially affect the first party products as well. And i do know from the wii that process related issues also affect first party products (especially when it got hot)."

Expecting something to run as it should is not an impossible standard. Obviously first party hardware is never perfect. You only need to look at the XBOX360 RRoD, or the PS2's warping of the disc tray. But in the example of the Wii, the Wii will run it's games better and easier than using an emulator.

"So you basically make claims and refuse to back them up. Thus, you're dishonest. Good, we're done here. "

First off, you keep using the word dishonest, but it doesn't mean what you think it means. Second, I am not making an false claims as all my points have been backed up. Third, it IS up to you to prove wrong something I have said if you disagree. If I said that a Mustang has 500 bhp, you can't just come in and say "nuh-uh" and stamp your feet around. You have to find an article or something proving that it has a different amount. That is how it works. Otherwise it's pointless.

Posted Monday by Q
Q
 
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