@Xhin
Posted: Posted June 9th
Edited June 9th by Moonray

Some NIFE requests and questions (and questions that are requests). Apologies if I have already asked any of this or if it's already being worked on, we've had a lot of discussions on NIFE that I have somewhat lost track.

Might also be worth having Ghowilo's input on some of this as I feel it'll be relevant for his planned game.

1. In the test game combat was mostly ok but there was one major issue I had with it. It seemed like you could just move rooms mid-combat (might have only been true if it was the opponents turn to attack). I really. REALLY. Think this is a bad idea. Combat should lock you in the current room until combat is disengaged (either by one of the participants dying or fleeing).

2. I've been messing with the elements plugin. It's not quite as intuitive as the rest of the panels. For example it's not immediately obvious that elements are being pulled from traits. Perhaps allow us to add traits from the elements panel, instead of forcing me to navigate between the two panels to work on them.

3. How would I make an "Amulet of Fire Resistance"? Or body armour that makes me immune to bullets? All of the interactions for Elements seem to be exclusively between Item Traits and Character Traits, but the only way to apply a character trait is through the host panel? Is there a way for items to apply character traits while held? Or is there a way to make item traits interact with item traits somehow? Basically I just don't see a way for PvP to make any good use out of this feature without the host direct intervening (and the whole point of NIFE was to make the host less of a micromamager and more of a gamemaster).

4. On a similar topic it occurred to me that one could be holding four Iron Helmets and gaining defence bonuses from all four, which makes no sense unless you have four heads. Could we get an equip plugin (or just addition to the combat plugin). In an ideal world I'd like for the host to be able to define what the equipment slots are (because each game is doubtless going to have different slots it wants to use) and then on an item state whether it is equipable & what slot it would occupy (perhaps allow them to usable multiple slots so that you could have rings go into any of four slots or multiple shield generators at once, etc).

5. Building from that, have any item that is not equipped not provide it's stat bonuses or be usable in combat. Also useful for weapons because then you can be carrying different models of gun/sword but only one is usable at that moment unless you swap which is in the "right hand" slot (as an example)... But also in addition to that (lol this is getting convoluted) have a way to set items as always usable. EG, healing potions need to be usable even when not equipped, and some games might want spells/abilities to be usable as attack options without them being equipped.

6. Did we change how sneak works yet?

7.A. Stealing... This is a tricky one. There's a few issues with the current version. The most obvious is games with lots or infinite auto actions make stealing OP. The next is the menu gets really messy when it shows every item, for large games this will make it annoying (I realise this is my fault after I asked you to get rid of the original system that straight up showed the inventory). It's also a bit weird to be able to see a list of every item in the game... The final one is duplicate items. If you see Xhin attacking with a Plasma Rifle, you know he has one so you want to steal it, but then in the menu there's like ten Plasma Rifles, how do you know which to try and steal?

7.B. My initial proposal is we rethink how this works. I think a system sorta like what Elder Scroll does would be sorta neat if possible: players would get an Attempt Theft auto action that they can initiate on other characters, if this fails on a player then that player gets notified in their journal. If it succeeds you then get one-off access to their inventory and can attempt to loot any ONE item in the inventory. To get another loot you need to attempt theft again. This removes my original criticism of instantly knowing a player's inventory by putting the risk-chance on the initial attempt, but also really simplifies the process. It gets rid of the massive list AND avoids confusion with duplicate items... Also some way for hosts to limit the number of times an attempt can be made per round.

8. Just a random additional though but could sub-items be a thing? They just inherit their stats from a parent-item, so if you want to adjust the stats of all identical Plasma Rifles you just need to edit one instead of ten... Similarly if one of those plasma rifles gets damaged allow us to detach it from the parent so it can be given unique stats.

9. Currencies (not just gold). Say you kill a Skeleton, he might drop 10 gold but also 2 bones. Regular merchants might use the gold, but there might be a special skeleton merchant out there who uses the bone currency. Also allow spells to use currency as "fuel". Using the same example maybe you have a skeleton class who can cast skeleton specific spells but they cost bones to use instead of mana. (I know currency and shops are on the todo list).

10. Summon auto-actions. Auto actions that let you summon minions. Have them require items (spells, robot fabricator, etc). This could also tie into the above request for currencies, you could have a robot fabricator that consumes a metal currency every time you summon a robot.

11. Elements icons don't seem to be visible outside of the hosting panel? Seems a bit pointless being able to give them fancy icons if players don't get to see them in the profile (like if you have an item that uses the fire element, it doesn't use the icon).

12. Skills that you can level up. Basically every time I use a sword, it would increase my skill with a sword. Every time I fire a gun it increases my skill with guns. Every time I use a fireball spell it increases my fire magic skill. Include some way to define how much each item/spell/ability would increase said skill so that better weapons and skills increase it more than weaker ones. Let hosts create the skills for their game as each game would need different ones. The host could use this for a variety of things. Locking certain auto-actions behind a skill level, locking certain items and spells behind skill levels so you can't just pick up the best item in the game and use it straight away. Could also tie in with my thoughts for the stealing revamp, where successful theft increases the skill which in turn increases your chance as success (but give the host full control of the chances of success and skill increase, etc).



You'll note a lot of this is heavily RPG game focused which is why I am gonna @Ghowilo in a reply for his thoughts and if he has any additional requests.

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There are 17 Replies

@Ghowilo:

Posted June 9th by Moonray
Moonray

Oh and also there are two bugs in the items panel that I think existed during my aliens test game too:

If you try to move an item to a room from within this panel (not by editing the item itself) it seemingly does nothing.

If an item is in a subroom and you press submit on above mention panel it'll mlve the item to be nowhere.

Edited June 10th by Moonray
Moonray

I added a 12 thing, just if you were reading it right now while I edited it.

Posted June 9th by Moonray
Moonray

Having girl time with my mom, will address this later.

Posted June 9th by Ghowilo
Ghowilo

I have no idea what that means you are doing but since it's with your Mum I'll assume it's innocent...

Posted June 9th by Moonray
Moonray

Shopping, drinking wine, talking about hot guys we see.

Posted June 9th by Ghowilo
Ghowilo

@Moonray:

It seemed like you could just move rooms mid-combat (might have only been true if it was the opponents turn to attack). I really. REALLY. Think this is a bad idea. Combat should lock you in the current room until combat is disengaged (either by one of the participants dying or fleeing).

Oh yeah agreed, that was a planned update but I forgot about it.

2. I've been messing with the elements plugin. It's not quite as intuitive as the rest of the panels. For example it's not immediately obvious that elements are being pulled from traits. Perhaps allow us to add traits from the elements panel, instead of forcing me to navigate between the two panels to work on them.

Yeah that's feasible.

How would I make an "Amulet of Fire Resistance"? Or body armour that makes me immune to bullets?

You can't just yet, but that's a good idea.

4. On a similar topic it occurred to me that one could be holding four Iron Helmets and gaining defence bonuses from all four, which makes no sense unless you have four heads. Could we get an equip plugin (or just addition to the combat plugin). In an ideal world I'd like for the host to be able to define what the equipment slots are (because each game is doubtless going to have different slots it wants to use) and then on an item state whether it is equipable & what slot it would occupy (perhaps allow them to usable multiple slots so that you could have rings go into any of four slots or multiple shield generators at once, etc).

Yeah that's a better idea than the way it's currently set up (for multiple reasons). Should changing equipment be an auto-action or a separate panel?

5. Building from that, have any item that is not equipped not provide it's stat bonuses or be usable in combat. Also useful for weapons because then you can be carrying different models of gun/sword but only one is usable at that moment unless you swap which is in the "right hand" slot (as an example)... But also in addition to that (lol this is getting convoluted) have a way to set items as always usable. EG, healing potions need to be usable even when not equipped, and some games might want spells/abilities to be usable as attack options without them being equipped.

This will take some work to figure out, as far as combat goes. Might need to revamp how spells work, for example.

6. Did we change how sneak works yet?

Maybe? How did we want to change it?

The most obvious is games with lots or infinite auto actions make stealing OP.

Time limits on stealing would be a better fix.. I have an upcoming Auto Actions update that lets you limit specific each auto-action or set intervals for it (like you can do a steal once every four hours). For the Space War game I'm just going to disable Steal completely.

7.B.

I like this idea a lot!

8. Just a random additional though but could sub-items be a thing? They just inherit their stats from a parent-item, so if you want to adjust the stats of all identical Plasma Rifles you just need to edit one instead of ten... Similarly if one of those plasma rifles gets damaged allow us to detach it from the parent so it can be given unique stats.

That would be feasible.. that's kind of in place already with the "Item Cloning" thing, but I could add a checkbox to signify whether an item inherits its parent stats or not.

9. Currencies (not just gold). Say you kill a Skeleton, he might drop 10 gold but also 2 bones. Regular merchants might use the gold, but there might be a special skeleton merchant out there who uses the bone currency.

This is already a feature in the Shop plugin (which doesn't exist yet because I need to make the Vehicles plugin first, and I'm currently working on Knowledge/Crafting).

Also allow spells to use currency as "fuel". Using the same example maybe you have a skeleton class who can cast skeleton specific spells but they cost bones to use instead of mana. (I know currency and shops are on the todo list).

That's a cool idea. I probably just need to rework spells because I can see the upgrades to it becoming a headache (I have some planned ones as well).

10. Summon auto-actions. Auto actions that let you summon minions. Have them require items (spells, robot fabricator, etc). This could also tie into the above request for currencies, you could have a robot fabricator that consumes a metal currency every time you summon a robot.

Easy to do. Will have to make a plugin panel for it though.

11. Elements icons don't seem to be visible outside of the hosting panel? Seems a bit pointless being able to give them fancy icons if players don't get to see them in the profile (like if you have an item that uses the fire element, it doesn't use the icon).

Yeah I'd like to add them elsewhere eventually. Item icons would be pretty useful too.

You'll note a lot of this is heavily RPG game focused

You might be interested in a couple more upcoming plugins then:

  • Quests -- Self-explanatory. Lets you create quests which get progressed or fulfilled via the Events feature (which the Machines update also uses). For example, you might have a quest line that's like:

    1. Talk to the NPC Ghostmaster about "The Ghost Amulet" to start it

    2. Pick up the Ghost Amulet from the Dungeon of Lots n Lots of Ghosts.

    3. Drop the Ghost Amulet in the Holy Shrine.

    4. Talk to the Ghostmaster again to finish it.

    Quests would probably give you items, upgrade stats, etc. I haven't done much work on them.

  • Status effects -- Various things that change the way you interact with the game, for example:

    Stunned -- Can't interact at all
    Mute -- Can't talk anywhere except main threads (useful for like team-based or commlink-based games)
    Amnesia -- No access to playerbox or profile or journal
    Teleportation -- Move to any room
    Poisoned -- Lose some amount of health each "interval".
    Finite (X) -- Give you X auto-actions instead of infinite
    Weak (X) -- Subtract X from the amount of auto-actions you have (things can increase or decrease this).

    Status effects have a Duration, which is how long they last. This could be measured in rounds or real-time hours. Some have an interval which means the effect happens over and over during that unit of time (hours or rounds).

    Status effects can be attached to weapons with an optional "chance" to do those status effects. Armor can have status effects. Armor can protect against status effects. Particularly nasty is "cursed" armor which applies status effects and is permanent unless uncursed somehow. I'm assuming this kind of thing would tie into the Equipment plugin.

  • Posted June 9th by Xhin
    Xhin
     

    12. Skills that you can level up.

    Good idea! Definitely need to revamp Spells at this point, there's like 5-6 reasons for it now.


    Posted June 9th by Xhin
    Xhin
     

    Teleportation -- Move to any room

    Note that doing this with Portable Machines is also feasible. Not sure which update will get done first.

    Posted June 9th by Xhin
    Xhin
     

    Also as far as RPG stuff goes, I'm renaming "Powerups" to "Potions" and maybe will stick temporary status effects in there too somehow.

    Posted June 9th by Xhin
    Xhin
     

    Also @Count Dooku: I know you had a bunch of suggestions too. I'm not ignoring them, just swamped with things I'm working on and games I'm trying to start.

    Posted June 9th by Xhin
    Xhin
     

    I think Moonray incorporated / addressed a few of my suggestions in his post. I'm heading out for the weekend but I'll double check when I return.

    Posted June 9th by Count Dooku
    Count Dooku

    Regarding stealth, these were the main parts of our discussion:

    Could we change how sneak works. Remove the auto-hide from player list and turn it into a auto-action that hides you from the player list until you move room or something. Perhaps also give the host the ability to give it a cost?
    Fair enough. So the best way to do it would probably be something like this:

    You're visible by default.

    You can use a special action that doesn't contribute to your auto-action limit to hide yourself from the visible characters list.. but it consumes the same amount as a sneaked auto-action (10 in this case)

    It works for the entirety of the round, but at the start of the next round you become visible again.

    If that's not a great solution, maybe we could at least work with it and optimize it.

    That would work as a start.

    Personally I would prefer if it de-activates when you move room rather than at the end of a round. Seems like it'd have more strategic use if you could use it one round and then wait for your prey to enter the room the next round.
    Oh yeah good idea, that solves the mid-round problem that I ran into.


    Regarding equipment:

    Yeah that's a better idea than the way it's currently set up (for multiple reasons). Should changing equipment be an auto-action or a separate panel?

    Hmm. Perhaps a separate panel because I feel like auto actions might start getting a bit messy if we have too many & it adds more purpose to the NIFE User CP.

    I was also tempted to say add a time limit on how often you can do it but I don't think that's necessary or fun. We can always try without and if any issues arise just add one later.

    Posted June 9th by Moonray
    Moonray

    A separate panel definitely works better. I'm doing a separate panel for Crafting too.

    Also I'll look at the sneak stuff and the bugs you found a bit later.

    Posted June 9th by Xhin
    Xhin
     

    Finally got a chance to look this over. I agree with everything in the OP.

    Posted June 9th by Ghowilo
    Ghowilo

    @Xhin:

    My bug report earlier was wrong. I meant to say character's instead of rooms.

    The two bougs are with moving items to Characters & Subrooms.

    Works fine when you are editing an item, but if you try to move an item from the of the Items Panel itself it'll not work (except if you move it straight to a room).

    Posted June 11th by Moonray
    Moonray

    @Moonray: I just realized that the equipment system solves the problems of mana/health booster systems. In fact you should be able to boost whatever stats you want.

    Posted June 18th by Xhin
    Xhin
     
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