Final Fantasies Collide!


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FFX is bad.
Posted: Posted December 11th, 2016 by Eagle0

I don't get it. Somebody explain it to me, because I'm tired of trying to figure it out myself. How is this game so beloved? For all the shit XIII gets, FFX is maybe just as linear. The characters are boring, Tidus is fucking awful, and worst of all... I have no motivation for anything. I feel like I'm just slogging through the motions instead of being gripped by the story this game is trying to tell.

I hate to say it... this game is far worse than XIII to me right now.





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There are 36 Replies

FFX is the epitome of jRPG excess. Quirky to the point of of being grating, shallow twists and emotional ploys (HE WAS DEAD THE WHOLE TIME WHOOOAOAOOAOO), leveling system that's fucking bizarre for no reason (just this side of fake-ass Nintendo-style "innovation"), linear to the point of absolute boredom, etc. X was the only Final Fantasy that I just straight-up stopped playing because it was so bad. And I played Crystal Chronicles.

FFIX was infinitely superior. Hell, even XII was superior, despite all the problems that it had.

Posted December 11th, 2016 by nullfather
nullfather

Hmm. It's gonna be weird to defend it because I think - at best - it's ok. I think of it as a middle of the road RPG. I think for me, I liked the story and characters (sans main protagonist) a bit more in X (although I am not a fan of the overall structure of the narrative - WHO IS HE TALKING TO IN NARRATION AND WHY DOES HE CHANGE TENSES?? IS IT HAPPENING? OR DID IT HAPPEN ALREADY? PICK ONE, GUYS!). I also liked the world better, and I appreciated having full control of my characters during battle, which was not really true of XIII.

I also seem to remember X being shorter, which really helps with the hyper linear nature of the two games. XIII for me was worse because it was so straight forward for what I thought was much longer.

Posted December 11th, 2016 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

But yeah. I think what it comes down to when people say it is good, is that they really like the narrative side of the equation. Story, characters, world. But the game is super linear. The actual structure and writing of the story is amateur (not a fan of that "amnesiac type protagonist so we have a built in reason to over-explain everything" device). The leveling system is generally fine, but it too is linear and I don't really see the point, I guess? It sort of lets you customize at some point, but it takes a long time to get there. Most Final Fantasy games are pretty linear at the end of the day, really, but they do a better job masking it. Even just stopping in pointless towns that offer nothing does go a long way to making it feel like you're actually exploring and on an adventure in which you have some agency.

My biggest complaint is that being able to swap characters out mid-battle, mixed with the fact that each character is tailored to specific enemy types, mixed with how frequently Overdrives are accessible, essentially made the game way too easy.

Posted December 11th, 2016 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

There was never any reason to use wakka or the blue tiger guy (kimahri?)

Once Yuna finished her sphere grid and went into lulu's, there was never any reason to use lulu again.

Once tides went into rikku's grid, there was never any reason to use rikku again.

This right here demonstrates what was wrong with the game gameplay-wise.

Story-wise wasn't completely terrible -- it at least had some depth unlike ff12. Maybe not depth on par with 6-9 but still.

Posted December 12th, 2016 by Xhin
Xhin
 

Wakka is the strongest character in the game. And infact the strongest playable final fantasy character ever.

Posted December 12th, 2016 by Red Leaf
Red Leaf

Also Rikku > Everyone but Wakka

Posted December 12th, 2016 by Red Leaf
Red Leaf

James Arnold Taylor does make Tidus hard to care about. Although I think he did an alright job during the more sad emotional parts, lime the revelation in Home, the fact that Tidus always sounds whiny kind of lessens those moments a bit. Everyone else's voice acting was great. Especially Auron, Seymour, Cid, and Yuna.

The game is painfully easy. Bit you can escape that by doing no sphere grin or single character challenges. I have done NSG and Rikku-only and Tidus-only runs.

Posted December 12th, 2016 by Red Leaf
Red Leaf

Story-wise wasn't completely terrible -- it at least had some depth unlike ff12.

Fight me

Posted December 12th, 2016 by Count Dooku
Count Dooku

It was what, 2001? 2002? Voice acting in video games wasn't quite good yet. I think most of the cast minus Tara Strong and John DiMaggio were pretty bad in the game, but largely because they either lacked adequate direction or were simply miscast (James Arnold Taylor, for example, is a good voice actor and I like his work on other things, but he's terribly cast as a main protagonist who narrates everything for 40 hours.)

Once Yuna finished her sphere grid and went into lulu's, there was never any reason to use lulu again.

...

This right here demonstrates what was wrong with the game gameplay-wise.


I don't quite agree with this. By the time Yuna has crossed into Lulu's grid, for example, Lulu has far more powerful black magic. There's still plenty of reason to use her if you want. At that point in the game, Firaga is more helpful than Fire.

Additionally, you kind of have to grind to get to a point where Character X is so far into Character Y's grid because they completed their own that Character Y is rendered useless. Not sure it's especially telling about the flaws of the gameplay. At the end of the day, every Final Fantasy game that came before X essentially functioned the same way that if you wound up grinding certain characters enough, it rendered other characters kind of pointless.

The real problem is that it doesn't really matter one way or the other. You could have Yuna complete Lulu's grid, for example, and render her useless, but so what? If you need black magic in a battle, you can just swap her in, use her spell, then immediately swap her back out. I was never a fan of the lack of commitment to parties.

Posted December 12th, 2016 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Story-wise wasn't completely terrible -- it at least had some depth unlike ff12.

I was afraid this would come up.


.... I loved FF12.

Posted December 12th, 2016 by Eagle0
Eagle0
 

FFXII actually had a decent story - in there somewhere. It had problems with perspective. I never gave a shit about Vaan and Penelo. They were obviously supposed to be the cheeky orphans caught up in world-wide mystical/political drama (oh, Squenix! how innovative you are!) but somehow they failed to be even that. They were just featureless tumors growing on the underside of the story. Instead of being narrative agents on behalf of the audience, they were just other parts of the audience.

When Vaan got Balthier's airship at the end, I felt nothing. It was literally the most boring and simplistic "character arc" ever.

Beginning of game: Vaan wants to be a sky pirate.
Middle of game: Vaan watches a bunch of shit happen.
End of game: Vaan gets an airship.

Posted December 12th, 2016 by nullfather
nullfather

Once I had the option I never used Vaan. I finished the game with him at a ridiculously low level.

balthier true main character.

Posted December 12th, 2016 by Eagle0
Eagle0
 

I never gave a shit about Vaan and Penelo.

Wasn't Vaan's narrative purpose to essentially turn Ashe away from seeking revenge/being the Occuria's pawn? In that respect, he's kind of crucial to the story as it stands.

Not that they couldn't have accomplished the same thing with someone else, but I think people tend to forget he actually serves a fairly important purpose despite being such a dull character.

No redeeming value to Penelo though.

Posted December 12th, 2016 by Count Dooku
Count Dooku

Vaan is at least ironically humerous. Penelo just sucks and has no purpose.

Posted December 13th, 2016 by Red Leaf
Red Leaf

Wakka is the strongest character in the game. And infact the strongest playable final fantasy character ever

That quits being important when your quick hit does 9999 damage.

Posted December 13th, 2016 by Xhin
Xhin
 

Yeah, but when does that happen outside of you going out of your way to "break the game"?

Posted December 13th, 2016 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Wakka does many many multiple hits of 99999

Posted December 14th, 2016 by Red Leaf
Red Leaf

Jet some of the optional bosses in ffx require you to break the game. It's only the main story that's easy. FFX has some of the hardest enemies in the series in the monster arena and in the international and remastered editions. (Dark aeons)

Posted December 14th, 2016 by Red Leaf
Red Leaf

Right, but you have to basically decide you're going to go out of your way to do that. It's not like that occurs naturally within the case of the main experience.

Posted December 14th, 2016 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Yeah it's a major pain in the ass. But so is farming elnoyles in 8 or grinding in ff12.

Posted December 14th, 2016 by Red Leaf
Red Leaf

Right. My point is those are all entirely optional and are not even a little bit required. You likely wouldn't even do that stuff if you didn't look up what the side quests were online.

Posted December 14th, 2016 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto



Final Fantasy XII is not that great. The characters are very boring and forgettable. The plot is shallow and doesn't go anywhere by the time the credits roll. The grinding is stupidly brutal and elongated for the sake of spreading out the length of time spent playing the game. The combat mechanics feel like a prototype for something that was meant for a much better game. The music is unremarkable, if only passable by mediocre standards as far as main Final Fantasy installments go. And, worst of all, the world of Ivalice is an insult to how said world was presented in Final Fantasy Tactics (which is, personally, the best Tactical Strategy RPG I've ever played).

Perhaps I'll reevaluate my opinion on FFXII when the HD Remaster releases. It is very unlikely, however. The thing I remember most about FFXII is beating it and watching the credits roll while I was alone in my bedroom and then saying aloud, "That's it?" What a disappointing Final Fantasy.

For FFX--which I DO find to be an overall better game than XII--it's down to personal taste. I feel the cast of characters is very strong and interesting as a whole with the exception of Lulu. Even Tidus is a good character in my opinion. He has motivation and there is plenty of development that is written very well. The whining/crying aspect of his personality doesn't bother me one bit because his character is portrayed in such a way that you can relate to it, particularly in the relationship with his father. Though, I could be biased because I myself had a shitty relationship with my mother. Anyhow, the plot is VERY good, in my opinion and is powerful social commentary on how much control religion and government should have over the masses (topics which greatly interest me on a personal level). The music is superb as always from Uematsu-san. The world is well realized and creatively portrayed. The combat I find very interesting because of its agility aspect, though it may be hard to notice that since it is a Wait turn-based combat system instead of Active. In any case, I find the agility aspect of combat to be a pretty cool mechanic. And sure, the voice acting is inconsistent. But here's the thing: Most of the time it is good and a few scenes are VERY well acted out. There are some bad reads from the actors, but it's not enough to put down the voice acting as a whole. The voice actors are clearly talented as you can see with some of the more powerful scenes in the game. There was just weak direction here and there, as was the case for many games of the early days that began picking up voice acting.

In any case, that's just the thing about FFX: It's personal opinion. It came out at a time when JRPGs were few and far between on the PS2 (the only other option was Dark Cloud 1....LAWL!!!!!). It appeals to us fans in a way that just doesn't do it for others, and that's okay. I think it's sad that FFX has gained a reputation for being bad with the passing of time. It really isn't bad, nor is it mediocre (or even perfect). It is a great RPG that belongs in history as a worthy main installment in the franchise of Final Fantasy.

EDIT: I'll have to disagree that FFX has some of the hardest bosses in the series. Just keep paying the aeon Yojimbo lots of gil in lesser battles to raise the odds he'll perform his instant death attack on any enemy, including ALL bosses. Win. The end.

Edited December 15th, 2016 by Laxan
Laxan
 

If you aren't gonna go after the hardest enemies why play it more than once? FFX's story has nothing to be ashamed of and it has hard fucking enemies. Being optional doesn't really matter. They are there all the same. And NSG and single character challenges are a thing.

The only thing to be shat on is James Arnold Taylor's horrible laugh and whiny voice.

Posted December 15th, 2016 by Red Leaf
Red Leaf

Also using yojimbo is basically admitting you suck.

Posted December 15th, 2016 by Red Leaf
Red Leaf

Same goes for all aeons after like sin spawn Gui. Even he is quite easy to beat without aeons it's just time consuming and boring.

Edited December 15th, 2016 by Red Leaf
Red Leaf

Wait, am I really the only one who thought the voice acting was overall as a whole bad, with a few exceptions? I totally agree that it isn't the fault of the cast, and that this occurred in a time before voice acting was really a serious thought from developers, so it's not unusual, but I was soooo sick of Tidus's whining (which is different to hear than it is to read) and Yuna's Shatner-esque speaking cadence (just spit it out, girl!)


Final Fantasy XII is not that great. The characters are very boring and forgettable. The plot is shallow and doesn't go anywhere by the time the credits roll.


I generally agree, but I think praise for X's story and it's "depth" are a little overstated. For all the subjects it touches upon - as many FFs do - it doesn't really resolve them in any sort of interesting or meaningful way. (I still think they should have allowed more time for Wakka to stew on the Rikku reveal, rather than having that be a thing, and then like, 20 minutes later, he finds out for sure the religion is corrupt and evil.) I just don't think it ultimately sorted any of that stuff out in a good fashion. Felt really rushed, because whatever interesting aspects of the story there were, it ultimately had to give way to the one about some random dude who wants the power to kill everyone because death is peace, or whatever bullshit motivated him.

I'd also still argue the primary reason I prefer XII to X is the gameplay. I thought XII was worse when it comes to world, characters, and story, but it was just more fun to play. X's gameplay was booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring. It isn't often that I play a video game to fall asleep at night, but X is one of the ones I can do that with.


The combat I find very interesting because of its agility aspect, though it may be hard to notice that since it is a Wait turn-based combat system instead of Active.


The pure turn-based nature of the game is not what I found uninteresting about the battle system/gameplay. I tend to like games that have that. The issue I had was how easy it was. Overdrives were too frequent. Swapping out characters removed any tension going into a boss fight. For random battles, there were never any enemies that were not specifically designed to be easily defeated by a particular character, who you could just swap in to take care of that one monster. In fact, outside of bosses, how many enemies even exist that are not almost instantly killed by the party member they are deigned to be weak against? Maybe they took two hits, but there were rarely any enemies that were challenging whatsoever. At least, not until you get to that final dungeon.


The grinding is stupidly brutal and elongated for the sake of spreading out the length of time spent playing the game


I felt this way about virtually everything optional in X: blitzball, that shitty and cheap chocobo racing, dodging lightning, capturing creatures, catching butterflies, et cetera. I'd rather just grind than do any of that bullshit. The side quests in X are easily the worst in the series, and that includes racing and breeding chocobos!


I think it's sad that FFX has gained a reputation for being bad with the passing of time.


I think part of it has to do with that we maybe have more understanding as we've aged and played more things what exactly it is that makes a game "great." Having a good story with good characters does not a good game make. It is hard to play the game today, in my opinion, to find actually great game design elements of it. I don't hate the game (I think it's all right, and I will replay it from time to time), but it seems absurd to call it a "great" game, or even a "very good" game. It does things from a design perspective that many of us knock from other games. It did feel weird at the time that so many people who praised X, for example, specifically pointed to XIII's linearity as bad, when X is every bit as linear.

It is a great RPG that belongs in history as a worthy main installment in the franchise of Final Fantasy.


Obviously it is a taste issue, but I don't know that I could disagree more on this. I do think of it as a "worthy installment," and that it has historical value to the franchise, but I think for similar reasons to why the first game does too (which I find unbearable). It was significant to bring new audiences into the franchise. It does some things well, though I struggle to think of what gameplay elements are among those. It was clearly the best looking game in the series to that point. I just think it's a little overboard to call it a "great" game, and definitely one that deserves to be in the annals of history on its overall merit as a game.

Posted December 15th, 2016 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

a+ topic

willing to reconsider my judgment, though, assuming that I get a chance to replay it at some point

Posted December 20th, 2016 by Pirate_Ninja
Pirate_Ninja

What is your take, Ninja?

Posted December 21st, 2016 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Did anyone try the rikku-only challenge I posted?

Posted January 6th by Red Leaf
Red Leaf

^the challenge is enjoying FFX #roasted


oh wow, sorry - I just saw your reply now, Jet...I posted that after getting back from a trip and was too busy to check in much afterward!

it's been a while, but the short of it was that FFX was okay but definitely one of my least favorite of the series (having played 1-7 and 10, and then I played 9 more recently). Its only real competition is 2 (which I complained about in [REAL TALK: what did I ever do to you, FF2?]) and 3 (which I didn't play very far into).

combat was just kind of a mess, between the early game going "here is an armored/flying/physical-resistant/etc monster please switch in the appropriate character and kill it," the fact that you could see the turn order well in advance (including how different actions would affect it), and the ability to switch party members mid-battle without penalty. I also hated Tidus and didn't care for Yuna, and it wasn't all that thrilling to go on an adventure where I only liked the "side" characters (except Kimahri, who was even less of a draw than Yuna). And the fact that it felt so damn linear really put me off - though I ironically never played past the point where you get an airship that actually gives you some freedom.

Posted January 6th by Pirate_Ninja
Pirate_Ninja

Thing is, I'd hardly consider where you get "free rein" of the airship to travel any less linear. All you do warp to whichever linear map you want to revisit to do tedious, horribly unfun "side quests."

Posted January 6th by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

nah dude dodging lightning bolts is GOTY material

Posted January 6th by Pirate_Ninja
Pirate_Ninja

Oh, no question. Do not think me a fool who does not understand the value of dodging 200 consecutive lightning bolts!

I was referring more to chocobo racing, though.

Posted January 6th by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

I never tried that in FFX, but if that came to mind for you over "perform the same strict QTE 200 times in a row" then that's pretty goddamn impressive, lol.

what makes chocobo racing such a treat?

Posted January 6th by Pirate_Ninja
Pirate_Ninja

Oh, I was actually thinking of dodging lightning, but the chocobo racing is just worse somehow to me. The controls are clunky - if you want to argue you even have much control of the bird. Additionally, in order to get the sigil or whatever for Tidus's ultimate weapon, you have to score a time of less than 0:00:00. You "subtract" time from your score by collecting balloons and avoiding birds trying to hit you (and it's next to impossible). I managed to - somehow - get 0:00:00 as a final time, but I didn't get the sigil because I didn't get less than 0...

At least dodging lightning bolts is just tedious as fuck. Racing chocobos is straight up infuriating.

Posted January 6th by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

I enjoyed the chocobo racing.

Posted January 7th by Red Leaf
Red Leaf
Reply to: FFX is bad.

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