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WARNING: Posts may contain offensive content and red wine
09/11/2001 WE REMEMBER

"Fear is the foundation of most governments." - John Adams

"My family is more important than my party." - Zell Miller


Today, POTUS Donald J. Trump posted the following messages on Twitter:

Democrats, fix the laws. Don’t RESIST. We are doing a far better job than Bush and Obama, but we need strength and security at the Border! Cannot accept all of the people trying to break into our Country. Strong Borders, No Crime!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1010873383087636480
We cannot allow all of these people to invade our Country. When somebody comes in, we must immediately, with no Judges or Court Cases, bring them back from where they came. Our system is a mockery to good immigration policy and Law and Order. Most children come without parents...

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1010900865602019329
Strong borders, no crime? Deportation with no legal process? Interesting time we'd be living in.

NON DVCOR DVCO
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There are 34 Replies

But Obama was the authoritarian dictator

Posted June 24th by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 

“If you get me one more glass of wine, I’ll tell you stuff only Bob Mueller and I know,” he joked. “If you think you’ve seen wild stuff so far, buckle up. It’s going to be a wild couple of months.”

Senator Mark Warner (D-VA), the ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee

Posted June 24th by Psygnosis
Psygnosis

But Obama was the authoritarian dictator

Everything Republicans said Obama was applies to Trump.

Incompetent, scandal-ridden, liar, extremist, partisan. Just wait, a year from now Trump is going to have some kind of death panel.

But back to the issue at hand, these tweets. The willingness to do away with liberties and rights in the name of security and safety is a consistent theme for Trump, and it's completely authoritarian in nature, and something that both Democrats and Republicans should be rallying against.

Posted June 24th by Agis
Agis
 

Conservatives are authoritarian by nature to varying degrees.
After listening to Trumps campaign speeches why do you think they voted for him?

Posted June 24th by Psygnosis
Psygnosis

A lot of reasons.

Economic anxiety, whites becoming minorities, general dissatisfaction with two party duopoly, American celebrity culture; how can you begin to answer that question unless you understand all these factors as well as many others?

Posted June 25th by Agis
Agis
 

I think the biggest thing here was economic anxiety. A large number of the white rural voters who voted for Obama switched to trump as he was the one promising real change like Obama had in the 08 election. .

The vast majority of Americans don't truly care about what you are selling as long as you can promise them food on the table and some spending money.

Posted June 25th by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 

So much is excused for white people's "economic anxiety".

And so much must be done for them -- militarize the border, tear up environmental regulations, reverse globalization, etc.

The economic anxiety that's been plaguing minority areas for years never got so much sympathy. Much less the economic anxiety that brings immigrants to our shores and borders.

That says to me you can't take "economic anxiety" alone and explain Trump and America First.

This was a "whitelash".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA9aSvHzEIU


Posted June 25th by Agis
Agis
 

Whites were not the only group who voted for trump though several minority groups for him due to economic anxiety.

End of the day his supporters are not the brightest people. Regardless of race.

Posted June 25th by S.o.h
S.o.h
 

Yeah how dare whites come together as a voting block, only blacks who vote 90% democrat should be allowed to do that.

Posted June 25th by #85
#85

Out of touch liberals who call all Trump voters racist are the reason Trump may win again in 2020.

Posted June 25th by pacman
pacman
 

58% of white voters vote for Trump and it is a "whitelash". 93% of black voters vote for Barrack Obama and we call it rational self interest. Well, some people call it rational self interest to vote for the party of slavery and Jim Crow.

Van Jones humiliated himself with that outburst, but not quite to the same extent as anyone willing to stand by his statements long after we have definitive numbers on the matter. Trump hardly enjoyed a larger percentage of the "white vote" than did Mitt Romney four years earlier. The problem for Clinton, at least in terms of race, is twofold. First, it is true that a handful of predominantly white districts flipped from blue to red. Why it is they saved their "whitelash" for Clinton after having voted for Barrack Obama twice before is anyone's guess. Remember folks, Hillary Clinton is the whitest person in the world this side of Shaun King. Second, black voters (but not just black voters) stayed home because the coalition that the Obama Campaign built was evidently not transferable to a white woman, or at least not the white woman that the Democrats had put up. The Obama coalition had been failing pretty much every Democrat across the country that wasn't Obama himself starting all the way back in 2010. The man left his party a smoking ruin and millions in debt. And unlike almost everything else he did, this is one thing that can't be undone with the stroke of a pen.

"Demographics is destiny" or so Democrats have promised us. They have believed for over a decade now that they are going to inherit this ascendant coalition: nonwhites, young people, white women, the college educated, and the so called "working class". Well, it hasn't quite materialized yet. In fact, should we witness a "blue wave" this November Agis will be sure to renew that promise once more. The Republicans are finished, he'll say. He will presumably not be embarrassed some years later when this turns out not to be true.

Edited June 25th by Famov
Famov

Well, some people call it rational self interest to vote for the party of slavery and Jim Crow.

I legit laughed. That has not been the case for decades. Nice joke though.

Posted June 25th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

Famov says at least as many ridiculous things as #85 does -- the difference is that he surrounds them with a few hundred words of barely related information.

Frankly, nothing's more embarrassing than Famov still trying to paint Obama as a bad president, even after 8 years of moderate and dignified governance, and nearly 2 years of Trump's reactionary regime ruining the country.

That Trump was the predominant Republican candidate from the beginning -- having the advantage of starting his campaign years before by saying that Obama was a Kenyan-born Muslim -- with his first speech attacking immigration from Mexico, certainly suggests some kind of racial undertone.

Again, that's not to say everyone who voted for Trump is a racist. I'm sure many of them simply didn't care if there was a Muslim ban or a multi-billion dollar wall would be built through the desert to strand families outside the US. And hey, Kenyan Muslim, real funny.

But look what's happened since Trump's been president. It's all as bad as (trigger warning) Hillary Clinton said. The economy isn't any better. They just feel good because Trump is telling them everything's great, and focusing their hate on groups and individuals.

Van Jones was right.

We should all be so good at calling a spade a spade when the inevitable backlash against Trump, his supporters, and the Republican party happens.

Edited June 26th by Agis
Agis
 

Agis is mostly right outside of saying Obama’s presidency was dignified, but at the same time his entire post makes me want to vote for Trump in 2020. :/

Posted June 26th by pacman
pacman
 

You might not like talking about race, and it's not my favorite topic either, but how different groups get along in this country is always going to be an issue.

Posted June 26th by Agis
Agis
 

I like Obama his presidency had a lot of Good and a lot of bad. But I do find myself missing George. W stands for weapons of mass destruction Bush. I was told that Kasich will once again run on 2020. He is my choice.

(Actually it would be cool if a popular traditional conservative ran with a popular liberal just to skew the vote for both sides)

The thing is it does not have to be an issue there are multiple ways to solve it.

Posted June 26th by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 

It’s not the race discussion that bothers me. I would love to have an objective, candid nationwide discussion on race from every angle without the weird tribal strings attached, but most Americans (regardless of their own race) don’t seem to want that.

For me, the vomit-inducing aspects of your post stem more from your praise of “establishment” figures like Obama and Van Jones who, despite their rhetoric, ultimately uphold the status quo of unchecked capitalism, corruption and imperialism, as well as your constant yet increasingly irrelevant pitting of Democrats vs. Republicans, as though anyone who matters truly respects either party these days. Not sure how much this sort of thing matters to you, but if I were a blue collar, working class Trump voter (and I actually am two of those things), reading your post would simply make me retreat further into my own ideological bubble.

Posted June 26th by pacman
pacman
 

ultimately uphold the status quo of unchecked capitalism, corruption and imperialism.

To be as generous as possible to you, I suppose you could make that argument. But if you're trying to establish an equivalence with him and Trump administration, sorry, there's no comparison, especially when you're talking about race relations.

Posted June 26th by Agis
Agis
 

Famov says at least as many ridiculous things as #85 does -- the difference is that he surrounds them with a few hundred words of barely related information.

How is it a whitelash when only 58% of white voters voted for Trump? How is it not a "blacklash" when 93% of black voters vote for Barrack Obama? It's a simple question, and illustrative of the problem of your racially charged language.

The Obama coalition fell apart for a variety of reasons, but it is undeniable that the results of the election hinged upon Obama voters that either shifted to Trump or otherwise stayed home. Neither of which explains how the Trump base can be fairly characterized by racial anxieties. How did white Macomb County Obama voters suddenly become racist? Referencing the birther conspiracy and Trump's literal Escalator Pitch in 2015 is simply not good enough as an explanation. A little bit of self reflection on your part might make it easier to appreciate the various ways the electorate rejected your candidate and the culture she represented.

They just feel good because Trump is telling them everything's great, and focusing their hate on groups and individuals.

But no, you'll just stick to misusing words like "hate". Trump voters simply hate other people. They really ought to look to you for an example of tolerance and understanding.

Posted June 26th by Famov
Famov

"Famov says at least as many ridiculous things as #85 does -- the difference is that he surrounds them with a few hundred words of barely related information"

wowie, let's not confuse smug, callous conservatives who have a few bigoted opinions (no matter how smug and callous) with actual nazis.

Posted June 26th by poptart!
poptart!
 

Heck, nowadays you get called a nazi just for suggesting that men and women are not biologically identical. The word means nothing anymore.

Posted June 26th by Jo Nathan
Jo Nathan

don't tag your bigoted opinion onto my comment - i don't want to be associated with that shit

Edited June 26th by poptart!
poptart!
 

Please explain to me how what I said was bigoted.

Actually never mind, I don't really give a fuck but thank you for proving my point.

Edited June 26th by Jo Nathan
Jo Nathan

"Actually never mind, I don't really give a fuck but thank you for proving my point."

oh, fuck off. i just don't want your "PC police going mad!!!" bullshit associated with me because it's just as unreasonable as calling famov a nazi. every time someone says something like that, it turns out they were called a nazi for saying something much less innocuous than "men and women are not biologically identical."


i will concede that "bigoted" was the wrong word choice. i should have said "neckbeardy gamergate shit"

Edited June 26th by poptart!
poptart!
 

A lot of the uses of the word "nazi" I've seen have been egregious, and the example I used isn't one that I just made up.

I'm still not sure why pointing out that men and women have differences - not that one sex is better than the other, but just has some differences - is such a horrible thing to say. I would genuinely be interested in having a civil discussion about this. I know I have a short fuse at times but I really don't think I'm this evil person you think I am.

Posted June 26th by Jo Nathan
Jo Nathan

"the example I used isn't one that I just made up."

and i'm saying that i doubt that you're giving me all of the information. "men and women are biologically different" generally isn't a topic that comes up without any context. a common tactic from gamergaters is to wildly misinterpret every situation and take quotes out of context.


"I'm still not sure why pointing out that men and women have differences - not that one sex is better than the other, but just has some differences - is such a horrible thing to say."

it's not.

" I know I have a short fuse at times"

lol, i'm the one being snippy here

"I really don't think I'm this evil person you think I am."

i don't think you're an evil person or a nazi. but i know you're a "PC gone wild" sort of guy, and i don't want anyone to think my comment falls under the 2018 version of that stance ("eVeRyOnE cAlLs uS nAzIs") because i think the "phenomenon" is blown way out of proportion.

any run-of-the-mill alt righter deserves to be called a nazi, so i'd gladly drink a nice cup of salty tears from the people whining about the use of the term. famov obviously isn't alt right, though, and clearly doesn't deserve to be called one. that's as far as i'm willing to go with that stance. i don't think people are running around calling traditional conservatives nazis, aside from maybe agis here.

look, liberals have been sucking john mccain and mitt romney's dicks more than ever - and sometimes even george w. bush. it's naive to lump the entire right together, and it's naive to say that it's people like famov who are getting the left wing rage

Edited June 26th by poptart!
poptart!
 

and i'm saying that i doubt that you're giving me all of the information.


So here's where I got that. I watched a video where a speaker said it's ok to be annoyed by gender differences, but if you're offended, it's a rejection of reality. At this point, some people in the audience got up and started shouting and disrupting the sound equipment. They then proceeded to say there's no room for nazis in this society. Is it plausible that the video was cleverly edited? Absolutely. I wasn't quick to suspect this because it seems in line with articles and tweets I've read by some radical folks, but it's absolutely possible.

Regarding gamergate, let me say this: I had issues with game journalism long before gamergate became a thing. That aspect of gamergate is what drew my attention initially, but then everyone made it about misogyny. I think some people in gamergate made valid criticisms, but any attempt at civil discourse was drowned out by rotten people on all sides and I wanted no part of that. Is gamergate even still a thing?

but i know you're a "PC gone wild" sort of guy


This is true.

any run-of-the-mill alt righter deserves to be called a nazi


I think this is something we all can agree on.

I don't really think there are hoards of people going around calling people "nazis" for innocuous comments like in my example, although I think there are a few. More prominent are the comparisons of the immigration policy to Nazi Germany, which I think is more understandable but not something I agree with (but that's a different discussion).

At any rate, I appreciate you taking the time to explain your comments and for clearing up some misunderstandings I had about them.

Edited June 26th by Jo Nathan
Jo Nathan

"So here's where I got that. I watched a video where a speaker said it's ok to be annoyed by gender differences, but if you're offended, it's a rejection of reality. At this point, some people in the audience got up and started shouting and disrupting the sound equipment. They then proceeded to say there's no room for nazis in this society."

gotcha. that is an overreaction. but i will say, that doesn't sound like he's innocently stating a fact - i'd the differences between sexes are negligible (and mostly physical) to the point where it doesn't really even matter. it sounds like he was baiting for a reaction. usually people who like to talk about the differences between the sexes have anti-trans agendas, too. not saying that has to be the case (and definitely not saying the reaction was justified), just that he's not just some rational being spouting facts in a vacuum with no context.

"Regarding gamergate, let me say this: I had issues with game journalism long before gamergate became a thing. That aspect of gamergate is what drew my attention initially, but then everyone made it about misogyny. I think some people in gamergate made valid criticisms, but any attempt at civil discourse was drowned out by rotten people on all sides and I wanted no part of that. Is gamergate even still a thing?"

okay, so you're not quite the person i thought you were. sorry.

no, it's not really a thing anymore. it got slurped up into the larger alt right movement. i do think that the gamergate echo chamber laid the groundwork for alt right propaganda and primed a large group of angry young men to be more receptive to far right ideology.

"This is true."

just remember that an echo chamber that constantly exposes you to the worst of the worst isn't representative of reality. that goes for me, too, i was pretty deep in the PC echo chamber for awhile, and my perception has really changed since i stopped following that trash.

"At any rate, I appreciate you taking the time to explain your comments and for clearing up some misunderstandings I had about them."

ah you're really killing me with kindness, dude. no problem, and i'm sorry for snapping at you.

Posted June 26th by poptart!
poptart!
 

I'm still not sure why pointing out that men and women have differences - not that one sex is better than the other, but just has some differences - is such a horrible thing to say. I would genuinely be interested in having a civil discussion about this. I know I have a short fuse at times but I really don't think I'm this evil person you think I am.


I agree. Any one who thinks differently is a total idiot. The differences between men and women are rooted in nature. Science can change that though.



More prominent are the comparisons of the immigration policy to Nazi Germany, which I think is more understandable but not something I agree with (but that's a different discussion).

I find those comments hilarious because they are far from true. It is business as usual for our immigration policy. It was not a nazi policy under Obama and it is not Nazi policy under Trump. Fuck the separation of children from their parents though.


usually people who like to talk about the differences between the sexes have anti-trans agendas

I am not well versed with the the conversion process of a man becoming a woman and vice versa. But I am going to assume that biologically nothing happens to the type of chromosomes they are born with. So regardless of what they identify as. Nature has already categorized them as either male or female.

So if you are a female who identifies as a male and is going through the process to achieve that you are still technically a female based on simple genetics/ biology.

Would it be taboo to point this out in a room full of liberals? We all agree the science is right. I get the feeling I would get yelled out for even talking about this and be called a transphobe or w/e

Edited June 26th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

"So if you are a female who identifies as a male and is going through the process to achieve that you are still technically a female based on simple genetics/ biology."

yes, your sex would still be the same even though you've changed to your preferred gender. hormones can sort of counteract that, though. again, do the minor differences really matter?

"Would it be taboo to point this out in a room full of liberals? We all agree the science is right. I get the feeling I would get yelled out for even talking about this and be called a transphobe or w/e"

maybe, but what's your agenda for pointing this out? it's all in context, and i think you'll be fine if you talk about this stuff in a compassionate way

Posted June 26th by poptart!
poptart!
 

Not a real agenda. There's a trans individual at work and I called them a she and they moved to correct me.

My boss had called them a she/her/ girl that entire day so my alcoholic brain had registered all those words in passing as we were playing drinking games and got way into it. (She never once corrected my boss mind you)

I was gonna point out that the pronoun I used was technically right but the more rational part of me kicked in. I apologized and I moved on.

I'm more peeved at the fact that she didn't correct my boss though. I mean if you are going to take issue with it surely you should take issue with the sober person who called you a "she" multiples time intentionally and not the tipsy person who said it accidently in passing.

Posted June 27th by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 

"I was gonna point out that the pronoun I used was technically right but the more rational part of me kicked in."

you would have been a giant asshole if you did

"I apologized and I moved on."

good man

"I'm more peeved at the fact that she didn't correct my boss though. I mean if you are going to take issue with it surely you should take issue with the sober person who called you a 'she' multiples time intentionally and not the tipsy person who said it accidently in passing. "

yeah, weird, that's like being called by the wrong name and not correcting someone.

Posted June 27th by poptart!
poptart!
 

you would have been a giant asshole if you did


=Thats why I stopped my self lol. Like if they had been screaming to me that they were biologically a man now thats when I would have moved to say something.


good man


im a strong supporter of the LGBTQ (what ever they go by these days) community. If they feel like they need to identify at something else then thats great more power to you.

send of the day there are something people bring up that genuinely make me scratch my head and move me to call for further information or clarification.

this quote from a gay (atleast I think it is) show more or less sums up my thoughts on everything as I am not that well versed in the different nuances of the community.

"I miss the days when your gays were gay, your straights were straight and your bisexuals were lying."


yeah, weird, that's like being called by the wrong name and not correcting someone.

A part of me feels that I was only told something because I am a man. And they wanted their feelings validated about them identifying as a man. But I think I am jumping the gun and maybe they were just afraid to say something to my boss. (Which is still weird as I am still technically the lead after my boss and if we fell in the same department I would be their supervisor ) Oh well just gonna let the past die.


Edited June 27th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

The reason why it is controversial to say that men and women are biologically different is because what might logically follow from such an undeniable observation. If men and women are physically (and hormonally) distinct, then it stands to reason that these differences may inform behavior. It may even, to greater or lesser degrees, inform aptitude, and now you can see how such basic observations threatens the worldview of the dogmatic egalitarians. Of course, it is a complex mixture of brain chemistry and our individual lived experiences that determine who and what we are, and there's so much room for variance that gender is not even nearly our most important trait. I really do have sympathy for those men, and especially the women, that are inhibited by social expectation:
https://www.weeklystandard.com/kaylee-mcghee/meet-the-yemeni-child-brides-of-dearborn-michigan
Male nurses and female engineers absolutely ought to be encouraged, but it isn't a travesty (and for most of us there's no great mystery) as to why there aren't very many of them. It is something like a travesty if an aspiring engineer is shipped off Yemen for marriage, however.

Men tend to prefer things and women tend to prefer people, and if you look at the career choices of men and women this is evident in a major way.

Regarding gamergate, let me say this: I had issues with game journalism long before gamergate became a thing. That aspect of gamergate is what drew my attention initially, but then everyone made it about misogyny. I think some people in gamergate made valid criticisms, but any attempt at civil discourse was drowned out by rotten people on all sides and I wanted no part of that.

This is more or less where I fell as well, except my sympathies were less about ethics than politics: To the extent that certain popular outlets were mouthpieces for far left cultural insanity I was more than happy to see pushback, and I think the "gamers are dead" campaign of articles were indicative of the gulf between the enthusiast press and its audience. I recommend anyone read those and marvel at how tone deaf these people were.

Is gamergate even still a thing?

You still see occasional flareups where similar sentiments are expressed. Mostly they seem to have separated from more mainstream forums, which is yet another way that the politics of the last few years have bifurcated various communities.

Posted June 27th by Famov
Famov
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