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Has anyone here seen it yet? I intend to see it this week before the showings stop. Nearly every review I have heard on it was fair to positive, but it is supposedly flopping in sales as a result of the fan backlash towards The Last Jedi.

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I personally put it down to the time of release (6 months after the last one, plus a different time of year the last several) as well as poor advertising. Can't say I really saw any TV ads for it. My and my group of friends are pretty big star wars fans and we almost completely forgot it was coming out.

Also wasn't that interested in a Han Solo prequel :P

As for the movie. On reflection it was ok, but that was it. Without getting in to spoilers.

Posted June 12th, 2018 by Redack

I personally put it down to the time of release (6 months after the last one, plus a different time of year the last several) as well as poor advertising. Can't say I really saw any TV ads for it. My and my group of friends are pretty big star wars fans and we almost completely forgot it was coming out.

I wouldn't care about the time of release myself, and several Star Wars movies were released at the same time of year. Supposedly they spent millions on ads, but you're right - I saw very little advertising for this movie compared to previous movies.

Also wasn't that interested in a Han Solo prequel :P

I keep hearing that, which is somewhat surprising considering that he has such a fan following. I mean some people want a Boba Fett film but not a Solo film? Fett wasn't even that prominent of a character.

Posted June 12th, 2018 by Trever Leingod

Also saw it late. The trailers never really captured my interest because A: I didn't think Han's backstory needed explaining and B: The actor they picked to play him never really seemed like Han (which was basically an impossible task for anyone).

But ultimately I enjoyed it. Its not one of the best Star Wars movies, but I don't think its one of the worst either.

I mean some people want a Boba Fett film but not a Solo film?

I think a Boba Fett film where we follow Boba Fett the whole time would be pretty hard to pull off. But if it was a Terminator 2 style thing where we're following one of his marks and every time Fett shows up he's just this unstoppable force that'd be pretty cool.

Edited June 12th, 2018 by Count Dooku

I think a Boba Fett film where we follow Boba Fett the whole time would be pretty hard to pull off. But if it was a Terminator 2 style thing where we're following one of his marks and every time Fett shows up he's just this unstoppable force that'd be pretty cool.

That's a pretty cool concept.

Posted June 12th, 2018 by Trever Leingod

I mean some people want a Boba Fett film but not a Solo film? Fett wasn't even that prominent of a character.

I think the fact that he wasn’t a prominent character is probably why people are hungry for more on him.

Posted June 12th, 2018 by Ceta
Ceta
 

I want a Boba Fett film that's like, a straight-up slapstick comedy where Boba Fett is like a bumbling Mr. Magoo type character. And he is partnered with a droid that is dealing with crippling self-doubt.

Anyway, I don't think the negative response to SOLO was really about The Last Jedi (although the toxicity of an annoying size of Star Wars' fan base doesn't necessarily exclude that many idiots were doing that). But SOLO was plagued with production problems from the start. The director change didn't help it. Then there were rumors that Alden Ehrenreich wasn't performing well and needed an acting coach on set didn't make it seem all that much better.

On top of that, Han Solo was one of those characters that was always "cool" because we didn't totally know his backstory. It's sort of like...Wolverine in the first X-Men versus Wolverine in every X-Men movie since. The more mysterious his past, the more interesting he was. And given that he was a main character in the original trilogy, we sort of already know where his arc ends. It feels a little pointless. It would have been better to make a movie about Lando to be honest; not just because of Donald Glover's pop culture relevance right now (and that he is genuinely a good actor), but because Lando isn't really a character that people super gravitated towards in the original. Like he's cool and everything, but he's sort of not that essential to the plot, and he's just sort of there to be cool.

As for the film itself, it doesn't help that it's...fine? I guess? I think it's easily the worst Star Wars film since Revenge of the Sith. To me, the production woes were totally noticeable in the way the tone seems horribly inconsistent and certain characters fluctuate in writing a lot (a result in a change of directors). There were too many pointless action sequences, mixed with too much time wasted to explain minute details that don't matter.



And holy shit are there too many action sequences. Seriously, there's like, 15 minutes of plot in the entire film, but 2 hours of endless action sequences that have no real stakes, don't push the plot forward, and don't provide character beats. There are things to like about the film, but it is largely just...not that good. Word of mouth does have an impact on ticket sales.

It's also funny that it's being panned as a "flop." Film grossed $101 million in its opening weekend. Yes, I know they expected more. Yes, I know it is the lowest Star Wars opening weekend (which I still think has more to do with the apparent quality and production woes). But what are these standards where $100+ million is a "flop"? It's so weird.

Edited June 13th, 2018 by Jet Presto

You might spoiler some of that Jet. I don't think Trever has seen the movie yet.

Posted June 12th, 2018 by Count Dooku

Trever can you please accept my friend request on discord? If you didn’t get one then please send a friend request to 8346 smashdude is my username.

Posted June 12th, 2018 by weid man

Anyway, I don't think the negative response to SOLO was really about The Last Jedi (although the toxicity of an annoying size of Star Wars' fan base doesn't necessarily exclude that many idiots were doing that). But SOLO was plagued with production problems from the start. The director change didn't help it. Then there were rumors that Alden Ehrenreich wasn't performing well and needed an acting coach on set didn't make it seem all that much better.

Rumors are always just rumors to me. I can't speak for virtually anyone else but none of that would remotely push me from seeing it. I heard Rogue One had tons of reshoots but that didn't stop me from seeing that either.

It would have been better to make a movie about Lando to be honest; not just because of Donald Glover's pop culture relevance right now (and that he is genuinely a good actor), but because Lando isn't really a character that people super gravitated towards in the original. Like he's cool and everything, but he's sort of not that essential to the plot, and he's just sort of there to be cool.

As far as I know, Donald Glover is only a pop culture big shot right now because of the "This is America" MV, which was only released several weeks before Solo. No way anyone could have known that was going to happen. I would not say Lando was unessential at all by the way- he was a core character for ESB and he blew up the second Death Star.

And holy shit are there too many action sequences. Seriously, there's like, 15 minutes of plot in the entire film, but 2 hours of endless action sequences that have no real stakes, don't push the plot forward, and don't provide character beats. There are things to like about the film, but it is largely just...not that good. Word of mouth does have an impact on ticket sales.

Word of mouth takes a few days to spread though and a lot of people were saying the premiere showings were super weak.

It's also funny that it's being panned as a "flop." Film grossed $101 million in its opening weekend. Yes, I know they expected more. Yes, I know it is the lowest Star Wars opening weekend (which I still think has more to do with the apparent quality and production woes). But what are these standards where $100+ million is a "flop"? It's so weird.

Probably because it said to be one of the most expensive films ever made and will need to gross at least $500 million to break even, not counting marketing costs. Not sure how that all pans out since it had a $250 million budget, but it's not raking anywhere near the cash that TFA did.

You might spoiler some of that Jet. I don't think Trever has seen the movie yet.

Nothing that spoiler-y there really. I actually saw an article shared on Facebook that spoiled something big in the title of said article, and it was like a day after the film was release: .





Posted June 13th, 2018 by Trever Leingod

It's also funny that it's being panned as a "flop." Film grossed $101 million in its opening weekend. Yes, I know they expected more. Yes, I know it is the lowest Star Wars opening weekend (which I still think has more to do with the apparent quality and production woes). But what are these standards where $100+ million is a "flop"? It's so weird.


The last I had heard it was sat at a $50million loss, I think that was maybe a week ago so they may have made that money back.

It would have been better to make a movie about Lando to be honest


For sure and I found the Lando actor to be way better at his respective character than Han Solo's actor was.



Posted June 13th, 2018 by Redack

Rumors are always just rumors to me. I can't speak for virtually anyone else but none of that would remotely push me from seeing it. I heard Rogue One had tons of reshoots but that didn't stop me from seeing that either.


True, but the difference is Rogue One didn't have all the *extra* baggage that Solo did. Tons of reshoots is not always a sign of production woes given that almost every film does them. So even though people talked about them as a source of concern, it was hardly as much a red flag as director changes after shooting began and the main actor requiring an acting coach because he was bad.

These production rumors don't always totally damn a film, but they do tend to damper excitement for a film. It doesn't help generate hype, and can easily contribute to weaker opening weekends.



As far as I know, Donald Glover is only a pop culture big shot right now because of the "This is America" MV, which was only released several weeks before Solo. No way anyone could have known that was going to happen.


Sure, they couldn't have predicted the timing of "This Is America" with the release of Solo, but Glover is certainly not only a pop culture big shot because of that song and video. Easily the biggest source of excitement since the announcement of casting was Donald Glover as Lando. That was literally the ONE thing everyone was universally interested in. He's a big rapper, and he has one of the most critically acclaimed shows on television right now. And that all was true BEFORE he was cast.



I would not say Lando was unessential at all by the way- he was a core character for ESB and he blew up the second Death Star.


Unessential is not the right word on my part, but he isn't exactly as central as the main three. He's a "main peripheral" character, like the droids or Chewbacca. They are there and they are main characters, but the movies aren't about them the way that it is about Luke, Leia, and Han, really. Lando doesn't get anywhere near the kind of actual development that Luke or Han does, for example, because he's more of a peripheral character than a central one.



Word of mouth takes a few days to spread though and a lot of people were saying the premiere showings were super weak.


Right, but those production rumors are part of "word of mouth." Those really don't help a film's premiere that much. It takes special circumstances for production woes frequently reported have an impact that is completely negligible.

It didn't help that Disney decided to drop the film in a very, very crowded May/June. They tried to help it out by pushing up Avengers: Infinity War, but it's still a very crowded season. That also doesn't help its premiere numbers.



You might spoiler some of that Jet. I don't think Trever has seen the movie yet.


See, this is the thing I think is kind of hilarious. I literally didn't spoil any part of the plot. Nor did I spoil anything that actually matters. These are all details that don't matter to the movie at all. But because everyone gets so obsessed with these minute details, we're talking about them like they do.



Posted June 13th, 2018 by Jet Presto

True, but the difference is Rogue One didn't have all the *extra* baggage that Solo did. Tons of reshoots is not always a sign of production woes given that almost every film does them. So even though people talked about them as a source of concern, it was hardly as much a red flag as director changes after shooting began and the main actor requiring an acting coach because he was bad.

I feel so out of the loop, because like Redack said earlier, I saw barely any promotions or news about this film. Let alone such rumors to influence me wanting to see the film or not.

Sure, they couldn't have predicted the timing of "This Is America" with the release of Solo, but Glover is certainly not only a pop culture big shot because of that song and video. Easily the biggest source of excitement since the announcement of casting was Donald Glover as Lando. That was literally the ONE thing everyone was universally interested in. He's a big rapper, and he has one of the most critically acclaimed shows on television right now. And that all was true BEFORE he was cast.

Again, I feel out of the loop. I have never heard of Glover before the Lando casting.

It didn't help that Disney decided to drop the film in a very, very crowded May/June. They tried to help it out by pushing up Avengers: Infinity War, but it's still a very crowded season. That also doesn't help its premiere numbers.

I really am skeptic about the actual cause of why this movie is "flopping". I've heard the season and the rumors as the reason, and also others saying it's a result of the fan backlash for The Last Jedi. I was among the people that thought TLJ was a major slap in the face to the fans - far worse than anything the prequels managed - so perhaps I am biased in the cause of what it was, but personally, if I ever felt like I was not going to see this film, it certainly would have been because I had lost faith in Star Wars and nothing to do with the alleged rumors.

See, this is the thing I think is kind of hilarious. I literally didn't spoil any part of the plot. Nor did I spoil anything that actually matters. These are all details that don't matter to the movie at all. But because everyone gets so obsessed with these minute details, we're talking about them like they do.

Other people on this site (or elsewhere) must be super picky about any film details, because I didn't give a hoot about the details you divulged.

Posted June 14th, 2018 by Trever Leingod

Not seen it which should surprise absolutely no one

Posted January 15th by tnu
tnu

I was among the people that thought TLJ was a major slap in the face to the fans


It's so strange to me that filmmakers trying to tell compelling stories and making good art is a "slap in the face to fans." Kinda makes me realize that fandom might actually inherently be detrimental to making *good* movies. I'm ok with people not liking The Last Jedi. Totally get it. But I don't understand the feeling that it was a "slap in the face of the fans." Why that attitude, over just simply, "I didn't like what they did"? Why is it that they specifically went out to fuck with you as a fan? I mean, Johnson clearly tried to subvert expectations (which I think is ultimately good because Star Wars as a film series had been far too safe to tell anything resembling a genuinely compelling story - so much of why the prequels don't work when it should is that Lucas got so bogged down on world building and the politics of the universe that he forgot to include actual focus on Anakin as a truly sympathetic character and, thus, make his downfall *actually* seem tragic rather than pre-destined). But I don't think that should count as a "slap in the face."

(Also, plenty of Star Wars fans liked it. I am certainly among that, thinking that nothing Johnson did deviated all that much from what had been set-up before. Like, I really wish fans would watch those films with a bit more than a shallow focus, because so much of what Johnson did takes directly from both the original trilogy [Luke as a curmudgeon self-exiled is literally a parallel to Yoda, and minus the attitude, Obi-Wan, the two masters who trained him] and the prequels [Luke admitting that the last thing he saw were the eyes of a scared boy whose master had failed him literally parallels Obi-Wan looking down at Anakin's burning body] And Luke struggling with control was something he *always* struggled with, including in his most "badass" stage at the end of Return of the Jedi. I don't really understand this idea that Luke should have just become this boring, one-dimensional Superman character who has mastered total control - something he had never done on screen before. How does that make a more interesting character or story? Like, again, I understand *not liking* the creative decisions. But I think Rian Johnson made a substantially better film than we would have gotten if it just catered to fan expectations. Indeed, I think the entire refutation of the Jedi order was long overdue [the prequels even sort of attempted to re-examine how we viewed the allegedly awesome, but turns out more problematic Jedi], and I think it was totally right to call out how boring it would have been - even if somewhat satisfying - to see a badass Luke Skywalker face down the entire First Order with his lightsaber [which he does in the end anyway, to much more thematic relevance than a generic action sequence]. So, like, I'm not sure where the feeling that it was a "slap in the face" comes from.)


Not seen it which should surprise absolutely no one


Not surprising. Although it in some ways felt like a film built for you, as its primary purpose was to explain continuity issues.


Posted January 15th by Jet Presto

I don't really like Harrison Ford and I thought this guy did a pretty good job if you take him out of that vacuum of expectation to be exactly like Ford.

Posted January 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

We don't expect Brosnan or Craig to be like Connery. Should Han Solo just go extinct because his actor is old and refuses to play him again?

Edited January 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Also the fact that Rey is a Mary Sue through and through bothers me more than any political motives for having her be a sue. She hasn't earned her power. Not like Goku or Naruto or even Luke or Anakin.

Posted January 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Naruto

To be fair, a good chunk (if not all) of narutos power comes from the 9 tail beast. They even point this out in his fight against Neji. irrc he would have lost the fight if the the 9 tail beast hadnt use his power to overload his chakra flow. (irrc)

any who. This movie was hot trash. I regret spending my 3 dollars on renting it. (frog)

TLJ

Im going to be shitted on but this is easily my favorite Star Wars movie since Revenge of the Sith. Shit at this point they are the best Star Wars movies since A New Hope and the Empire Strikes back. imo.

Dont get me wrong they both have parts that are Hot garbage. (and most will say that revenge of the sith is hot garbage) but dam did I enjoy them. Cut out the rose and finn parts and TLJ is a decent movie with some eye candy action.

Posted January 15th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

Also the fact that Rey is a Mary Sue through and through bothers me more than any political motives for having her be a sue


This isn't really true, especially in terms of the technical meaning of the term "Mary Sue." It also ignores the entirety of The Last Jedi and relies on only observing elements of the Force Awakens. And even then, that was always going to be a tricky thing to tell given the Force Awakens was constructed as episodic, so we inherently had an incomplete story. It's hard to definitively say anything about a character when all you get is the first chapter. I mean, you literally cannot argue that she was a Mary Sue in any way in The Last Jedi.


Not like Goku or Naruto or even Luke or Anakin.


Anakin didn't earn his power either. He was *literally* a Messianic figure born from the Force. His strength was entirely natural. They barely even show any actual training in the prequels when you really get down to it. And that also sort of carried over into Luke as well. Vader even says it outright, "The Force is strong with this one." That alone implies Luke's power was innate. If you want to get into the nitty gritty of "training to use powers," that's one thing. But to argue that Rey's power is unearned but somehow Luke's or Anakin's were, that would require some mental gymnastics. Learning HOW to use a specific ability is different than the power that exists within a character.

Goku is sort of a mixed bag, too. Sure, we see him training a ton. It's nonstop. That gives the impression that his power is earned in a way that, say, Gohan's was not (since it is sort of just presented as genetic for him). At the same time, the text explicitly states that Goku is a special type of saiyan, a legendary occurrence that happens once every however many thousands of years or whatever. That implies a bulk of his power is genetic, or in other words, innate. Plus his breed: it's why Goku had superhuman strength even as a child. It was innate. So Goku is sort of a mixed bag. How much of it is earned and how much of it is innate? It's hard to tell sometimes, especially after some contrived saiyan form is created every so often explicitly for the purpose of suddenly allowing Goku to overpower his opponents. (Like, using the power he *earned,* he was unable to defeat Frieza. Using the power of the super saiyan, which was innate to him, is what allowed him to overcome.)

Can't speak to Naruto. Haven't seen any of that.

Cut out the rose and finn parts and TLJ is a decent movie with some eye candy action.


Cut out the Rose and Finn parts and you lose the central message and purpose of the film. I get why people found Canto Bight a slog (and it does border into prequel territory, for sure - I don't think it's necessarily all executed super well), but the Rose/Finn storyline is literally the most important plot thread for the film on a thematic level.



If it's not obvious, I loved almost everything about The Last Jedi, and I think it was hands down the best Star Wars film to date. Yes, I think it's a better film than Empire. It's certainly not perfect, and it absolutely has pacing problems. But it was the first Star Wars film that made me feel like I actually had to engage with the film and watch it deeper than just looking for shallow eye candy. And I will always prefer that to anything.

Posted January 15th by Jet Presto

Yeah but Naruto has to tame that beast. It would take advantage of him if it didn't respect him.

Posted January 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Cut out the Rose and Finn parts and you lose the central message and purpose of the film. I get why people found Canto Bight a slog (and it does border into prequel territory, for sure - I don't think it's necessarily all executed super well), but the Rose/Finn storyline is literally the most important plot thread for the film on a thematic level.


eh did we watch the same movie? I didnt find that part of it to be necessary or important.


Yeah but Naruto has to tame that beast. It would take advantage of him if it didn't respect him.

It has been years since Ive read the mange but he never really does tame the beast. Not even when he faces Pein. I may have to go back recheck but if I remember correctly they only work together because the 9 tails fears madaara (not entirely sure if this is the case its been a long time since Ive cared about the series)


goku

yes we see him training but he has some ridiculous power jumps thanks to an ability that is genetically given to all of the saiyan race. Like jet said it is a mixed bag.

Posted January 16th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

Jet she absolutely was a Mary Sue in TLJ. She trains with Luke for what, a week, half of which he doesn't even want to. He says he's only seen her power once before and yet he's met Vader and Yoda and Obi-Wan and the Emperor. And bam, she's equal in power to Kylo or perhaps even stronger? I don't buy into the SJW hate she gets but she is a ridiculous character when it comes to her power. Don't get me wrong. I found Daisy likable and I found Rey enjoyable for the first hour of TFA before she pilots the Falcon. I think they did that part well for her origin story on Jakku. After that I found that while she still has charm she's just OP as shit with no merit to be that way. In the last hour of TFA she has close to Starkiller levels of power and Luke thinks she's Jesus even though he himself can cast an image of himself half a galaxy away and "fight" and convincingly trick Kylo Ren. I am sorry, I wasn't sold on it. TLJ feels like a fanfiction made into a movie. The visuals were great but they broke the movie and the universe with the kamekaze ship attack and they broke my personal belief when they made Rey abundantly powerful for no reason.

Posted January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

And bam, she's equal in power to Kylo or perhaps even stronger

It has been established that kylos grandpa was space jesus. Couldnt it be the case that she is just the second coming of another space jesus?

they broke my personal belief when they made Rey abundantly powerful for no reason.

but weve seen that happen with space jesus and his son luke. why didnt it break your belief then?

Posted January 16th by s.o.h.
s.o.h.
 

I dont watch the shows or animated series but is there a form of media out there which follows up the events of the Solo movie? I am interested to see what happens to

Posted January 16th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

Anakin at least trains as a Jedi his whole life and has personal lessons from Palpatine across 20 years by the time a new hope happens. And Luke gets training directly from Yoda for months. Rey trains with Luke for a week and is just astoundingly powerful for no reason. She defeats Kylo even before that. Goku was a low level soldier class saiyan, disposable. He does dedicated training for one year with Gohan not even counting the training he does in other archs. Naruto has wanted to be hokage since he could talk. For Rey the power and responsibility just appears even though she didn't seek it out or want it.

Edited January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Rey at best is just a carbon copy of Luke. Which is lazy.

Posted January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Naruto has wanted to be hokage since he could talk.

To be fair. He draws a lot of his power once again from the 9 tail beast. A chakra reserve literally given to him at birth. With out it I dont believe he would have been able to accomplish the majority of his feats let alone become hokage.

Posted January 16th by s.o.h.
s.o.h.
 

Why not? His father was a Hokage.

Posted January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Luke at least lost when he dueled a Master for the first time. Anakin lost when he fought Dooku. Goku and Naruto have eaten dirt numerous times. Rey wins every time. She is a Sue.

Edited January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Rey is an insult to characters like Ash Ketchum who's entire goal in life is to be the very best, like no one ever was. Every time Ash loses a pokemon battle despite his heart and grit and effort -makes me cringe when I see Rey effortlessly parry and wound Kylo Ren or levitate 1000s of giant boulders at once. They had a chance to make her weaker. Snoke should have beat them.

Edited January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Why not? His father was a Hokage.

and? Kakashis father was stronger than the legendary sanin (combined?) and while Kakashi is a great resourceful ninja he was far from being on par with his father or the sanin. Just because a parent is able to accomplish a feat does not mean the off spring can.

In the original series Naruto is barely able to create a normal clone due to his poor chakra control. He is only able to create multiple because of the 9 tails huge chakra supply. While I am sure Naruto would have been a decent ninja with out the 9 tails I dont believe he would have been that special.

If his poor chakra control continued he would not be able to create the rasengan. (keep in mind kakashi states that even jonin level ninja have a difficult time making more than 3 shadow clones) I doubt none 9 tails naruto would be able to accomplish such a feat at a young age. At best I feel that maybe he could have accomplish his feats up to sage mode but at a much older age. But I dont think he would have been able to become hokage when there were much more stronger ninja in his village.

Posted January 16th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

But even then Naruto loses many fights. Rey is a genius survivalist. She can fly the falcon effortlessly despite previously not having enough money to get past the next day. She has a broad range of talents accross a wide range of spectrums even without the force. She is charming, witty, clever, attractive, talented, and on top of that exceedingly op. Naruto isn't even cool next to his friends.

Posted January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Naruto isn't a sue even with the fox demon because he's such a loser. Even with that advantage he manages to fuck things up.

Posted January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Actually maybe he would have. But I think it would have taken him a lot longer. Sage mode is pretty OP and the old pervy dude didnt fully master it but naruto did. But if I remember correctly he had to rely on his shadow clones to even manage it.

I dont care about naruto not being a sue just pointing out that out of the characters you listed he literally has the strongest demon of the show implanted into him which he relies on for power.

Edited January 16th by s.o.h.
s.o.h.
 

Fine. I am just explaining that merely being OP doesn't make for a sue. Naruto is a well fleshed out well-written character. Rey is like a fifteen-year old girl's fanfic character on her first role-playing site. If she didn't have Daisy playing her she would have nothing. Ridley brings a Sue to life and makes her likable. Her writing sucks.

Edited January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Daisy at least is more entertaining than Hayden Christensen or young Mark Hamill. Mark got far more interesting with age lets be honest. She does a lot with maybe the worst writing of the three, although George did write some really awful scenes for Hayden.

Edited January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Naruto is a well fleshed out well-written character.

this is questionable. I dont believe he changes much as a character. Especially not in the original series. We also have to keep in mind that what ever growth he does have happens over the span of what 8-10 years? over hundreds of manga issues/ hundreds of anime episodes?

also isnt this the case for all the new characters? angsty kylo ren is still angsty kylo ren except he killed his dad.

Posted January 16th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

He goes from a selfish prankster brat who wants revenge and power to being willing to die or lose his arm to save his best friend from himself, even if that friend doesn't know what's best for him. He goes from the village reject to the hero who saves it. From having zero friends to being universally loved by his village. He even manages to get respect from Sasuke and Sakura who thought he was a useless goof. You didn't watch the same show I watched if you can't see how much he changed. He's selfless by the time he actually becomes Hokage. He deserves to be one. Naruto is one of the few animes that can hit me right in the feels even on subsequent watch through.

Edited January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Also you just made my point for me. Rey advances too quickly. She should still be a relative novice by the end of episode 9. I really hope she loses her next duel vs Kylo.

Edited January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Naruto's pace of advancement when it comes to both abilities and character development. Is perfect. It's really slow burn and we see him suffer and learn and get better and fail again until all he has is his own stubborness. He takes what can be seen as a negative personality trait and uses it to get better.

Posted January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Luke at least lost when he dueled a Master for the first time. Anakin lost when he fought Dooku. Goku and Naruto have eaten dirt numerous times. Rey wins every time. She is a Sue.


This is objectively, provable not true. Plus, you are misrepresenting events from the original and prequel trilogies. If anything, you are making a stronger case that Rey is fitting the same pattern as Luke and Anakin.

Luke lost when he dueled a Master for the first time...in the SECOND movie. He fails exactly zero times in the first one. He succeeds in rescuing the princess, converting the smuggler, and destroying the Death Star. All of the bad stuff that feel like failures occur completely outside of his control. His aunt and uncle are killed off-screen while he is away. Obi-Wan chooses to sacrifice himself for a larger plan.

Anakin lost when he faced Dooku...in the SECOND movie. I'm less familiar with the prequels, but if memory serves correctly, he fails exactly zero times in the first one. He wins his pod race. He earns his freedom. He destroys that Federation ship. Again, the only failures he appears to suffer are things outside his control (his mother remains a slave feels like a failure, but there's literally nothing Anakin can do about that, thus it is not *his* failure / Qui-Gon is killed, but Anakin wasn't even on the planet when that happened).

Rey doesn't exactly lose a lightsaber duel, but she fails rather completely in her objective...in the SECOND movie. She failed to stop Snoke (Kylo did that). She failed to convert Kylo Ren (her stated purpose of turning herself in). She never went up against anyone in a lightsaber battles, but this conversation is about more than just head-to-head combat.

So, you are objectively wrong that she remains a "Mary Sue" in the Last Jedi, even if I were to concede she is one in The Force Awakens (which I don't, but even if). The only way to argue otherwise is to admit that you didn't watch the Last Jedi. Which is fine to have skipped, but if you did, then don't talk about it like you saw it.

Similarly, Rey failed to avoid capture when she first ran into Kylo Ren. In the first movie, she suffers the same apparent failures as Luke does (Han essentially sacrifices himself just like Obi-Wan did, but there was nothing Rey could do about it). She fails to protect her friend, who is left out of commission at the end of the film, but that too was a little more on the "out of her hands" side of it.

Even still, the Force Awakens wasn't exactly secretive about why Kylo Ren would be weakened at that point. As has been pointed out mercilessly by more attentive fans who actually paid attention, Kylo Ren had *just* killed his own father AND been shot in the side by Chewie's bowcaster. He was both physically and emotionally weakened at that point. Finn - a janitor who literally is not an actual soldier - was able to take on Kylo Ren in this state too, and he had NO force abilities. This was pretty clearly set up. On *top* of that, the film doesn't really make a secret of the fact that Rey was tapping into the Dark Side a bit there, fighting with an anger akin to Luke at the end of Jedi when he was hacking away at Vader until he took off his hand.

The idea that she is a "Mary Sue" because she beat Kylo Ren in a one-on-one lightsaber battle is and has always been stupid, reliant on simply not paying attention. It ignores everything about Kylo Ren as a character, it ignores all of the events that led up to that moment, and it ignores any understanding of the previous films, too.

The reality is: Rey's arc so far has very closely resembled Luke and Anakin's. The main difference is that she starts off a more optimistic and hopeful character than the others. (She seriously has more in common with Luke than everyone seems to recognize. I'm not sure why so many people just don't see it. Her arc is a little sped up, most likely because Kylo Ren gets more time to get fleshed out as a villain than Vader ever did, so the focus can't all be on her future. Kylo Ren's future has been equally important in this trilogy so far. But overall, Rey kind of really is just a more optimistic and enthusiastic Luke.)

Both films taken together especially, there is no way to argue Rey is a Mary Sue, unless you want to admit that you don't understand what the term means.


makes me cringe when I see Rey effortlessly parry and wound Kylo Ren or levitate 1000s of giant boulders at once.


There's really no winning for female characters, is there? Dudes complain that she can do stuff with the Force without any training at all. So then the ENTIRE second film is JUST her training and following an identical path to Luke in Empire (arguably depicting more training, to be honest), and now dudes complain that she can do stuff with the Force even with training.

They've literally established that is a capable fighter with her staff in the first film, and then showed her training with the lightsaber in the second. (Which is FAR more than George Lucas ever did to set up that Luke was a good pilot - which is literally indicated just because Luke says that he is.) And now you're complaining about the fact that she's good with a lightsaber? Gimme a break.

Snoke should have beat them.


This would have made a substantially less interesting film. Having Kylo Ren defeat him, spinning out into Rey completely failing in her objective to save and convert Kylo is far more interesting narrative than having some random bad guy who doesn't matter to the central story beating her just because you want to see her lose a lightsaber battle.

No. Having the protagonist fail in a different way is way more interesting, in my opinion. Especially since it gives a critical moment of development for Kylo Ren, who was shown to be equally important in The Last Jedi.

Posted January 16th by Jet Presto

I watched TLJ twice. I was going to watch it twice IN theatres but instead I watched it the second time on Netflix because I didn't think it deserved my money the second time. I went to TFA twice in theatres even despite the sueishness of Rey. I figured they would iron it out in the second movie and the first movie was otherwise very enjoyable. And I will watch the third movie in theatres. I enjoyed parts of both movies but I am entitled to my criticisms whether you agree with them or not Jet. To me Rey's actress makes up for terrible writing almost every time she's on screen. Daisy is a true star.

Edited January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

I do feel bad for women in action scenes. But like I said, I am not harping on Daisy, I am harping on the laziness. Ahsoka Tano is a much more well-written female Jedi. My critique of Rey isn't political. I love female characters. I usually play as female characters in games.

Posted January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

@SOH

In regards to: Clone Wars delves into how he survived and his quest for revenge against Obi-Wan. You could potentially just search for which episodes he is in and only watch those given Clone Wars episodes were pretty much told within a vacuum (except multi part episodes). Or you could watch the whole thing but most of the early stuff is very much aimed at kids.

He also makes appearances on Rebels (which is after Solo chronologically) but if you watch that then I'd recommend watching all of Rebels as his appearances on that are part of larger character arcs for the main cast and I'm not sure if they'd be worth watching without you having some kind of investment into the main cast first. That said his final episode on Rebels is pretty much an episode just for him and could easily be watched standalone.

As far as I know there's nothing to show what happens around his intended story for Solo. Whatever was going on there they clearly planned to delve into it in Solo 2 (or maybe they were planning his own movie).

Posted January 16th by Redack

Rey advances too quickly.


For starters, as it pertains to the movie presentation of the Force, there have never been any real rules established. One thing that is, however, is that everyone has a different connection with it and, thus, different capacities for growth. Luke starts off more capable with the Force than Leia, for example. We know she is connected. We know she can utilize its powers, as established in Empire and Jedi. But her connection is weaker. We can also be reasonably certain that not all Jedi possess the same abilities.

The Force is not presented as something in which everyone grows at the same rate. Anakin, for example, was LITERALLY A 9 YEAR OLD BOY WHO WAS THE BEST POD RACER ON TATTOOINE DEFEATING LONG TIME CHAMPIONS AND PROFESSIONALS AND EVEN STOLE A SHIP, IMMEDIATELY LEARNED HOW TO FLY IT, AND DESTROYED A TRADE FEDERATION SHIP. AT 9 YEARS OLD! (What are we even *talking* about here, "developed too quickly" in Star Wars...)

There is no reason to think that someone like Rey couldn't develop a lot faster than someone else, even someone like Luke. She's still behind in terms of age compared to Anakin. Professional athletes have all spent the same amount of time training for the same game, and yet some are clearly better and more dominant than others. I mean, for the love of god, Vegeta trains just as hard, if not harder than Goku, and he never seems to get the edge on the power level.

But this highlights another problem with a lot of Star Wars fans. You watch it on such a shallow, continuity-only level that you can't even be bothered to look for themes. They're not even very subtle with the fact that Rey and Finn and the younger generation in these movies grew up hearing stories of Luke, Han, and Leia, and to various degrees idolized them. People argue that Rey is a "Mary Sue" because she "feels like a fan fic character," but ignore that the *entire* central theme of this trilogy so far is about younger generations coming into their own. That these new Star Wars characters, who grew up idolizing the older Star Wars characters, are now - off of that love - starting to shape the future of Star Wars. Just as, today, in the real world, people who grew up idolizing older Star Wars are shaping the future of Star Wars.

And, of course, there's the fact that Luke was a power fantasy, too. That was, in many ways, the central premise of the original film: for audiences to connect with Luke and feel empowered by his ability to succeed despite being a relative nobody from nowhere. The Last Jedi hits this note even harder, but for some reason people hate it when Rian Johnson does it.

Posted January 16th by Jet Presto

I enjoyed parts of both movies but I am entitled to my criticisms whether you agree with them or not Jet.


Ok. Then you are just objectively wrong in continuing to call Rey a "Mary Sue." It's one thing to argue that you feel she is lazily written. To call her a "Mary Sue," especially after watching The Last Jedi, is wholly inaccurate and means something different.

Posted January 16th by Jet Presto

The prequel trilogy sucks, we get it Jet. Anakin shouldn't be based off of Jesus and yet he is, that was clearly a mistake. The Phantom Menace is a terrible movie. Attack of the clones is a terrible movie with slightly better lightsaber choreography. Revenge of the sith has some bad writing but is pretty entertaining. I try to ignore anything that comes before it other than the clone wars cartoon. I can't respond to your walls of text on a phone with low battery so I am cherry picking a bit. I found Luke a boring character. The most boring main character in the star wars original trilogy. I find Daisy more interesting than young Mark Hamill. But copying his role is still lazy writing. Address what I said about Ahsoka who actually has her own problems, conflicts, and decisions to make and the agency to do so. She isn't a carbon copy of a male protagonist like Rey is. They spend 4 episodes chasing her down for a crime she didn't commit. Lastly: Stop treating me like I am a sexist idiot who knows nothing about star wars. I have been a member of a star wars writing forum since 2009 and most of my own characters are female. How is comparing her to Luke making her any less of of a Sue? She is more powerful than he is and fails less too.

Edited January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

I am sick of your condescending tone. Stuff it Jet. Asshole isn't usually a word I would use to describe you but you don't get to talk to me like I'm either twelve or some witless idiot consumer sheep. This was never a pissing contest about who is a bigger star wars fan. I watched this particular movie a total of twice because there were a number of problems with it. Flying space Leia, the Kamikaze, and my perception of Rey being too OP too early. Which is a distant number 3 actually. Rey being a sue doesn't even bother me that much. There were other glaring holes in the movie. It just wasn't a very great movie. I enjoyed Solo more. I think I even enjoyed Revenge of the Sith and Rogue One more. But I will still watch the third movie in the trilogy.

Edited January 16th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Not surprising. Although it in some ways felt like a film built for you, as its primary purpose was to explain continuity issues.


I doubt oit coud fix any of the issues I had considering what they actually did was attempt to overwrite at east six books worth of background on the character and it sounds like it was obnoxiously political and trying too hard to be "woke" and "subversive" get your preachy political crap out of here.

Edited January 16th by tnu
tnu

you can't see how much he changed. He's selfless by the time he actually becomes Hokage. He deserves to be one. Naruto is one of the few animes that can hit me right in the feels even on subsequent watch through.

he's always been selfless though. Early on he is willing to sacrifice himself when fighting zabuza. Does he grow up a bit? Sure. But not as much as you think. He only got closer to the village because they accepted him for who he was. Once they actually got to know him instead of fearing him or excluding him they learned to like him.

Posted January 16th by S.o.h
S.o.h
 

As far as I know there's nothing to show what happens around his intended story for Solo. Whatever was going on there they clearly planned to delve into it in Solo 2 (or maybe they were planning his own movie).

I see. I just thought it was strange how they brought him back up but he was technically a sith lord (?) like at one point in time it was him, darth vader, and palpatine all running around.

Posted January 16th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

yes let's just pretend havign three SIth al simulteniousy active in that era maes any sense at al

Posted January 16th by tnu
tnu

@Jet
To call her a "Mary Sue," especially after watching The Last Jedi, is wholly inaccurate and means something different.


It is The Last Jedi that makes her a Mary Sue. I very much disagreed with this opinion about her in the Force Awakens, I felt the things she did were acceptable within the realms of what had already been established.

The Last Jedi skyrockets her to suddenly being able to do basically anything she needs to. She can move a mountain of boulders, or fight highly skilled body guards, or whatever else she wants, all after a week of training... I mean even if you cut out the sci-fi/fantasy elements and just go with the sword thing, how the hell does she hold her own against Snoke's bodyguards after a week of training???

And all of this comes with like, no flaws in that film? The Force Awakens gives her flaws, most obvious of which being her reluctance to get involved in the bigger picture which results in her capture. What flaws does she have in The Last Jedi? I don't recall any. She ignores Luke's advise about the evil pit, but then this kinda feels like the smart move anyway because we're kinda supposed to view Luke's opinion as wrong at this point in the film because at that stage he's still in grumpy "I don't want to help nobody" mode.

I'm still very much onboard with the character, but I definitely felt her portrayal (at least in this aspect) in The Last Jedi was weaker than Awakens. The scenes with Kylo were very good though.

@tnu
yes let's just pretend havign three SIth al simulteniousy active in that era maes any sense at al


This coming from the guy who wants to go back to the stories where we had about a thousand Sith active in that era. Pick your criticisms more wisely maybe?

@soh
I see. I just thought it was strange how they brought him back up but he was technically a sith lord (?) like at one point in time it was him, darth vader, and palpatine all running around.


Without really going into any detail I would say putting him in Solo was a mistake because he had a pretty cool sendoff not long before when Rebels ended and the proximity of the events don't portray his character in very similar states of mind. His appearances in Rebels he's more of a Yoda (in Empire Strikes Back) type character for the Dark Side and he tries to get the main character to embrace Sith teachings.

In Clone Wars he goes through several phases in his attempts to get revenge on Obi-Wan and this version of him is closer to what we saw in Solo, but it's like 10 years earlier (at a guess, I can't actually remember the star wars timeline that well anymore).

Posted January 16th by Redack

no we ony had two sith in that era. the rest were Dark Jedi as far as I recal.

Posted January 16th by tnu
tnu

Aside from a lost colony... A bunch of them in hiding... The ones that Vader and Palpatine personally trained...

Like what defines someone as a Sith rather than a Dark Jedi?

Posted January 16th by Redack

It's a square/rectangle distinciton Sith at least after Darth Bane established the RUle of Two refers specificaly to the Order of Sith Lords which has a ine of sucession from master to apprentice (Bane to Zannah, Zannah to Cognus, Cognus to Millennial etc.) historicaly it wa sa lot looser but distinctions still existed theNightsisters for example cou d be sconsidered Dark Jedi but not necessarily SIth same with Ventress o Starkiler

Posted January 16th by tnu
tnu

omg redack you cant just ask some one how they are a dark jedi

Posted January 16th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

Asshole isn't usually a word I would use to describe you but you don't get to talk to me like I'm either twelve or some witless idiot consumer sheep.


It's not my intention to speak condescendingly to you. All of my points have come from a perspective of film criticism and critical thinking. As I said before, it is totally fine that you didn't like the Last Jedi and found the writing lazy. The film is far from perfect. (For what it's worth, I had some issues with space Leia, too, with its execution. I was totally into seeing Leia use the force in a powerful way, but I don't think *that* was the way to do it. On a base level, it just visually looked too goofy.) And yes, I threw in some mocking tonal comments there because, I mean, seriously, it's Star Wars.

But maybe if you don't want to be spoken to like you're a twelve year old, don't throw a temper tantrum because you are being challenged to actually think critically about an opinion you have held for a while. I spoke to you in a very direct, matter-of-fact tone after you called Rey a Mary Sue. I pointed out all the ways that that is objectively incorrect as a label. You...repeated yourself and then threw a temper tantrum. The more you continued to throw a hissy-fit, the more condescending I grew.


The prequel trilogy sucks, we get it Jet.


Well, I didn't say that. I think George Lucas is a bad writer (especially when it comes to dialogue). And I think there are too many problems with the prequels for me to call it anything more than "meh..." at best. But there are actually quite a lot of interesting elements to it that I quite love. For example, I really appreciated that Lucas sort of pulled the curtain back on the Jedi Order and challenged viewers to re-examine how they felt about them. The entire point of the prequels is to highlight the hubris of the Jedi. That in their self-assured effort to "balance the universe," they wound making mistake after mistake and wound up creating the very thing they feared the most. It's a very interesting concept, especially since Obi-Wan can sort of be seen making the same exact mistakes in the original trilogy. The Jedi are built as this mythical class of amazing, heroic warriors in the original. But come the prequel, we are forced to confront the *reality* rather than the *legend,* and recognize that the Jedi weren't all that great, really.

My point in noting Anakin in the prequels is to highlight the difference in tone people use when discussing the new trilogy. Don't get me wrong. People were disgusting asshole idiots when they hated the prequels too. ("George Lucas raped my childhood" was never funny or anything less than pathetic.) But no one went off deriding Anakin as a character, even though he is 9 years old and can do all of this crazy shit for a 9 year old, and the film only ever explains it by saying, "He is the Force incarnate!" basically. I bring up everything with Anakin in the prequels to highlight that some of these complaints being levied at Rey as a character or The Last Jedi especially as a film are not often made about the prequels. Sure, a lot of fans still think they suck and disown them, but there isn't really the same types of criticism. The point is to note that there is very much precedent in the Star Wars films preceding the new trilogy that establishes some of these things many people keep complaining about as "coming out of nowhere" or "being contrived."

But I didn't say the prequels sucked. At worst, I feel indifferent about them. (I do think they are garbage films in execution, but conceptually and thematically there is a lot that I like.)

But copying his role is still lazy writing.


It's a parallel, not a copy. Rey mimics Luke in a lot of ways, but she is not identical. You are free to call it lazy, but this is a very common literary device in narrative fiction. And, as I mentioned earlier, we still don't have the complete story yet. With both the prequels and the original, we have all three films in the trilogy. We see the start, the middle, and the end. Thus, we can analyze everything pretty definitively. We still don't have a conclusion to this trilogy. Given that it was fundamentally constructed to be three films, each independently incomplete, it is hard to say anything definitive one way or the other. We have enough that we can examine the ways that Rey parallels Luke, for example. Whether or not it pays off remains to be seen, since we don't have the last piece yet.


Address what I said about Ahsoka who actually has her own problems, conflicts, and decisions to make and the agency to do so.


I cannot, because I haven't watched the show. I tend to avoid comparing differing mediums, though. A television show has access to a lot more time than a film, and serves - as a product to be consumed - a slightly different function. So I'm not very inclined to make a comparison with between a character of a movie and a character of a show.

That said, Rey has her own problems and internal conflicts, too. She literally makes some of the biggest decisions in The Last Jedi, and has the agency to make those choices. This is all depicted pretty clearly in the Last Jedi. If you want to argue that her arc is not as interesting, that's one thing. But to act like she has no conflict, or that she makes no choices, or has no agency in the Last Jedi, that is - again - objectively wrong. You have to completely avoid watching the film to make that case. (In fact, so much of the backlash came because Rey's choices and her conflict were part of a thematic thread that *ended* the idea that everything is pre-ordained and characters don't have agency. That's literally the entire point of her parents being nobodies.)

Stop treating me like I am a sexist idiot who knows nothing about star wars.


I'm talking to you through a cinematic and narrative lens here. The comments I make have less to do with Star Wars specifically and more to do with actual film criticism, or - and I say this sincerely not meaning it in any derisive way - film literacy. I don't honestly care enough about Star Wars details to try to convince anyone that any creative decisions they made in the new trilogy were "cool" or not. It's entirely subjective anyway. I am speaking more towards the general cinematic history of the franchise with a bend towards viewing cinema as art as well as product (thus, it's hard for me to watch a film and not look below the surface). It's why you watched the Force Awakens and seemed to take away that it was ridiculous that Rey was able to go head-to-head with Kylo Ren and win. But I watched it and recognized that it was never a fair fight to begin with because Kylo Ren was severely weakened both physically and emotionally and was so much more vulnerable than any Star Wars villain we had ever really seen before in that moment. At the risk of sounding especially condescending (and certainly hyper reductive): it's as if you watched the Star Wars and I watched the film, if that makes any sense.

How is comparing her to Luke making her any less of of a Sue? She is more powerful than he is and fails less too.


None of the Star Wars protagonists are Mary Sue/Marty Stu characters. By definition of the terms. And where it becomes a problem is that you continue to wrongfully apply the label specifically to the one female protagonist in a Star Wars trilogy, while sort of just shrugging your shoulders about her male counterparts that she is based off of. If you want to call her a lazily written character, do that. But the more you incorrectly label her a Mary Sue, the more I will challenge you on it because it is *objectively* false.


it sounds like it was obnoxiously political and trying too hard to be "woke" and "subversive" get your preachy political crap out of here.


I have broken down the ways that the Last Jedi actually works almost explicitly from a film criticism perspective. It's not my fault that change and being inclusive is "obnoxiously political" to any fan too possessive and toxic to share their toys with others.

Posted January 16th by Jet Presto

What I"m saying is "Sith" is a more specific termt hatmean s more specific things. before the Seventh Battle of Ruusan it was a lot broader and more inclusive but sitl didn't universaly apply to any dark side force user. in other words Sith is a hyponym not a synonym to Dark Jedi it's like the difference between "Doctor" and "Cardiologist"

Edited January 16th by tnu
tnu

I just figured Palpatine would have known he was alive. Surely a force user like that would be a danger to the empire. (well potential danger)



Posted January 16th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

I have broken down the ways that the Last Jedi actually works almost explicitly from a film criticism perspective. It's not my fault that change and being inclusive is "obnoxiously political" to any fan too possessive and toxic to share their toys with others.

No wonder we don't get along Jet. I find film cirtics to be the most obnoxious condescending people on the planet

Edited January 18th by tnu
tnu

The Last Jedi skyrockets her to suddenly being able to do basically anything she needs to. She can move a mountain of boulders, or fight highly skilled body guards, or whatever else she wants, all after a week of training... I mean even if you cut out the sci-fi/fantasy elements and just go with the sword thing, how the hell does she hold her own against Snoke's bodyguards after a week of training???


But she *can't* suddenly do everything she needs to do. We had already established that she was a capable fighter with a melee weapon in The Force Awakens (on multiple occasions, we see her with skill). That, in part, is because she clearly idolized the legends of Luke Skywalker. Because she grew up admiring him and those stories, she took an interest in being part of it. This isn't even that thin of a subtext in the two films. Fighting the body guards and moving the boulders are far more set up in this trilogy than Luke being a good pilot was in A New Hope (we are literally supposed to just take his word for it, and then we believe this teenager is an ace pilot capable of competing with some of the best pilots in the Empire, who actually DID go to the Academy where Luke said he wanted to go at the beginning.) On top of that, her being more powerful with the Force has *also* already been established. Snoke literally spells this out, saying that the more powerful Kylo Ren becomes, the more powerful his equal and opposite will be (he just thought it would be Luke instead of Rey). I don't see why this interpretation of the Force and "balance" is any less valid than anything else. "Balance" in the movies has never really meant anything. It's like I said before: some users of the Force are clearly depicted as being just innately more powerful than others. Luke gets literally no training on how to use the Force, but he literally, suddenly figures out how to use it to move the rapid traveling torpedoes to bank hard to hit the exhaust port. Off of no real training. But that doesn't seem to be a criticism of A New Hope, or serve to the detriment of Luke's acceptability among fans.

how the hell does she hold her own against Snoke's bodyguards after a week of training???


I've talked about this in the past, but "training" in Star Wars is so silly. How the hell does Luke suddenly become capable enough of taking on Jabba's entire posse nearly single-handedly after just as short a period of time (if not shorter) training with Yoda than Rey did with Luke? Again, it's a criticism that seems only levied at the new trilogy, and at Rey specifically, when it is every bit - if not more - applicable to Luke in the originals.

But I also harken back to the prequels, where "training" for Jedi is often comprised of meditation and mental exercises. It is often about sage wisdom being offered from mentors to their pupils. We never really seen Anakin "train" in combat. The impression the previous six films had given was that the Force is mental. Rey is a stronger-willed character than Luke was, and has had access to healthier role models than Anakin did. To me, at least, based on what I understand of the Force from the prequels and original, the Force is primarily mental. Even when we see Yoda pushing Luke physically, the true lesson was on the mental. It was about teaching Luke focus. The more he could focus, the stronger he could be.

But really I just go back to Luke. Luke literally goes from getting his ass kicked by Vader to...taking on Jabba's army pretty much alone... with less training than Rey had. So why is that not a criticism levied against Luke as a character, or against Return of the Jedi as a film?

Or to put another way: why is it no one seems bothered by the fact that Spider-man has literally received no training whatsoever. He can just sort of do what he does because his powers are intuitive, it's presumed. The first time we see him in action, he's taking on Captain America - a literal soldier who trains daily on various forms of martial arts. Spider-man ultimately loses in his brief one-on-one - Cap's experience gives him the edge - but no one seems to question how come HE is such a great fighter. We *never* see Tony Stark train, but we just accept that when he's in the suit, he knows what he's doing.

So why don't we apply that same cinematic experience to Star Wars? Why is it soooo unreasonable or awful that we interpret the Force in a similar way? That Force users kind of tap into unlocked potential, or that - as it is presented in the very first Star Wars movie - it can actually be pretty intuitive?

As an action/fantasy film, this just seems like a really nitpicky complaint, if I'm being honest.


And all of this comes with like, no flaws in that film?


Let's see: she lacks true confidence and isn't at all self-assured, despite her discovered connection to the Force and all she can do. She goes to Luke to bring him into the fold so *he* can save the day, not her. Yet at the same time, she is self-absorbed. Her insecurity drives her to so desire being "destined" or someone incredibly "significant" that she risks her own life positive that she can convert Kylo Ren. She feels confident because of a vision, not because she actually has faith in herself. And, even with that momentary confidence, she is quickly overpowered by Snoke. And she has a bit of a "savior complex" as it pertains to Kylo Ren. She is very much a part of why he slipped darker. (It was mostly Luke, but Rey was a key contributor in that arc.) And then yeah, in her self-absorption, she ignores Luke's warning about the pit (I wholly disagree that we are supposed to feel like Luke is wrong - given the obvious parallel to the Cave of Fears in Empire to the visually intimidating design of the pit, I totally disagree that we are supposed to think Luke was wrong to warn her about it.)

I'd argue that she actually has more character flaws in The Last Jedi than The Force Awakens.

It is The Last Jedi that makes her a Mary Sue.


Again, being overpowered and being a Mary Sue are *different concepts" based on *different literary devices.* I thought everything Rey did in TLJ was clearly established, moreso within the parameters of previous Star Wars films than some other Star Wars films (namely Return of the Jedi, to be frank). But she *does* have character flaws. She fails to convert Kylo Ren (her explicitly stated objective). She even winds up creating a scenario in which Kylo Ren slips deeper to the Dark Side. And Luke hated her for most of the movie. BY DEFINITION: this is not a "Mary Sue."



Edited January 16th by Jet Presto

how the hell does she hold her own against Snoke's bodyguards after a week of training???


I do want to point out that Rey grew up fending for her self. Its not like this was her first itme picking up a weapon. The training with her staff may have played a big role in how she was able to handle her self with a saber.

I would imagine it would be like going from playing a guitar to playing a Ukele. Or going from speaking spanish to learning and speaking french Im sure some if not all of her skills translated over.

Posted January 16th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

SOH's got it!

And that's not to mention that the films have always sort of presented people's abilities as being heightened when keyed into the Force. (Rey, especially, seems to become more powerful when she taps into the Dark Side more, which I'm hoping gets some attention in the finale, but I kind of don't think that's where they're going with her.)

No wonder we don't get along Jet. I find film cirtics to be the most obnoxious condescending people on the planet


I'm no more a film critic than you are. I just want good movies where you want more continuity. And I maybe appreciate the artform of cinema a little more. (Some people prefer the product more, and I want to be clear about this: that's totally fine! Especially for Hollywood movies, which function first and foremost as consumer goods, really.) But to me, it's more important a film have solid thematic narrative than continuity or "believability." (I mean, I grew up primarily a Godzilla fan. I'd have a miserable experience if realism or continuity were my main concerns.)

Posted January 16th by Jet Presto

SOH's got it!

I believe we had this conversation before. Redack or trevor had pointed it out back then.

Posted January 16th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

None of the Star Wars protagonists are Mary Sue/Marty Stu characters. By definition of the terms.

But the more you incorrectly label her a Mary Sue, the more I will challenge you on it because it is *objectively* false.


JP I'm enjoying reading your perspectives in this thread (though I personally didn't like TLJ very much). But I gotta ask, where are you getting your absolute definition of Mary Sue/Gary Stus? I've heard all kinds of different interpretations of the term. I'm genuinely curious if there's some kind of consensus I haven't found yet on what it fundamentally means.

EDIT: In fact, I'd like to hear everyone's definition of "Mary Sue" if they care to share.

EDIT again: I've always understood "Mary Sue"-ness to be a spectrum.

Edited January 16th by Cetasaurus
Cetasaurus
Formerly KM8

heh

wiki:

A popular subject of debate pertains to whether the Star Wars sequel trilogy features a Mary Sue in its protagonist, Rey. Screenwriter Max Landis opines that the character fits this description,[25] claiming that Rey is excessively gifted at a variety of skills.[26] Conversely, Caroline Framke of Vox contended that Rey did not fit the Mary Sue profile, stating that "Any additional skills Rey has—mechanical work, hand-to-hand combat, climbing, etc—are explained when we first meet her... If she hadn't picked up those skills, she'd probably be dead".[27] Other writers, such as Tasha Robinson of The Verge, have defended the idea of Rey being a Mary Sue, stating that "for women who've felt underrepresented through decades where most of the ladies onscreen were victims, tokens, rewards, or shrews, it's natural to feel a sugar rush of fulfillment over characters like Katniss Everdeen and Imperator Furiosa".[28] Erik Kain in Forbes defines Mary Sue and argues that Rey's abilities do not make her one, given the details of her allegedly established backstory.[29]


Posted January 16th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

I haven't talked about Star Wars in a while, so this thread was a treat.

There's really no winning for female characters, is there? Dudes complain that she can do stuff with the Force without any training at all. So then the ENTIRE second film is JUST her training and following an identical path to Luke in Empire (arguably depicting more training, to be honest), and now dudes complain that she can do stuff with the Force even with training.

Gotta call bullshit on this. Rey's training in TLJ is 1. Luke teachers her how to "reach out" and do the basic Force sensing stuff. This is legitimate training. But then 2. Luke gives her a history lesson about the Jedi and why he thinks they should end. Hardly training. She is shown practicing with the lightsaber, but that wasn't 1 on 1 training with Luke, and it's clearly her first time ever practicing with the lightsaber, so I'm not sure if that's really a point in her favor or not.

Rey does have her Force cave moment, but she doesn't learn anything from it, so it's difficult to consider it training compared to Luke's Force cave. The lesson from the cave was the same lesson Maz tried to teach her in TFA- look inward to yourself, not to your parents. Rey instead runs straight to Kylo crying that she didn't get the answers she wanted.

Annnnd that's it. That's all of Rey's training. One definite, two maybes if you're very generous.

Compare to Luke, who has bits in A New Hope with Obi-Wan, then his running bit with Yoda on his back, multiple scenes of lifting stones, and the absolute best scene in all of Star Wars, the X-Wing in the swamp. All of these scenes teach Luke about the Force and how to properly use it. Rey gets one scene like this in both of her films. It's a landslide in favor of Luke, and I'm confused that Jet thinks it's comparable at all.

Luke gets literally no training on how to use the Force, but he literally, suddenly figures out how to use it to move the rapid traveling torpedoes to bank hard to hit the exhaust port. Off of no real training.

We have the scene in the Falcon where Luke learns to deflect laser blasts through training. He's specifically told how to accomplish this. I imagine that was a lot more difficult than what he did with the Death Star. You could at least get a lucky shot on the Death Star.

Why is it soooo unreasonable or awful that we interpret the Force in a similar way? That Force users kind of tap into unlocked potential, or that - as it is presented in the very first Star Wars movie - it can actually be pretty intuitive?

Because the films have set up that training is necessary to increase your skills. We see Luke grow in strength from scene to scene. It takes him great focus to lift the lightsaber out of the snow at the beginning of Empire, but at the end he's able to call it to him instantly during his battle with Vader. The audience is clearly meant to interpret this as being because of his training with Yoda. Training makes you more powerful in this universe, and your attempts to argue against this are absurd.

Luke literally goes from getting his ass kicked by Vader to...taking on Jabba's army pretty much alone... with less training than Rey had.

I've already explained why you're wrong about Luke receiving less training that Rey, but this is also a silly issue for you to take. Luke *clearly* grows stronger off screen between Empire and Jedi, just as he grew stronger off screen from the end of ANH to the beginning of Empire. At the end of Empire while on Cloud City, Luke isn't sneaking around with his lightsaber out ready to chop up Stormtroopers- he has his blaster out. He doesn't put it away until he comes face to face with Vader and he knows that a blaster won't work. He isn't confident enough in his abilities to rely solely on his lightsaber yet. In Jedi, Luke doesn't even carry a blaster anymore. He trained himself in the year or so between the two films, and he now feels comfortable enough to solely rely on the saber.

This same thing could totally work for Rey, but there was no off time between the two films, and it really isn't implied in TLJ that there's much passage of time at all. In Empire, when you cut away to the secondary characters, they're sitting around, both on the Falcon and in Cloud City. They actually do a ton of fucking nothing. In TLJ, the other characters are *always* doing something. While, sure, you could make the argument that time could be passing for Rey to do some serious practice, it isn't as easy to argue for the way it is in Empire. Even if you could argue for it, as I've already pointed out, Luke just flat out got more on screen training than Rey, and given that Luke only promised her three lessons and we see two, even if you want to say that yes, the time is there for Rey to get off screen training, Luke clearly didn't offer it. The film just doesn't support this idea.

I do want to point out that Rey grew up fending for her self. Its not like this was her first itme picking up a weapon. The training with her staff may have played a big role in how she was able to handle her self with a saber.

This works for how she can realistically use a lightsaber, and given Kylo's injuries in TFA, I can buy that she can fend him off, but we're not talking about the thugs on Jakku in TLJ. These were Snoke's personal guards. Completely uninjured and outnumbering Rey. I would have to assume they were more thoroughly trained than Rey was with her stick. She does have the Force, but again, the films haven't taken the time to train her, so she should realistically be at Luke's end of ANH or beginning of Empire level. It really doesn't make much sense if you start to think about it, but again, this is Star Wars. You really shouldn't be thinking about it.

In fact, I'd like to hear everyone's definition of "Mary Sue" if they care to share.

I've always understood Mary Sue to be a character who lacks any real flaws (and if you google it that's pretty much the definition that comes up). So it's always been really fucking weird to me that the Mary Sue discussion focuses solely on Rey's abilities. The term comes from romance fanfiction. Not fanfiction where characters have powers or abilities. To me, it's a strange connection to say that Rey has unearned power or abilities, therefore she's a Mary Sue. It doesn't really make sense to me, except in a very shallow way where you're only focusing on the literal events of the film, but not the characterizations.

Then you have the problem where fans who aren't paying attention make up "unearned" abilities she has, like being able to repair the Falcon better than Han or being able to fly the Falcon super well. Han was never good at fixing the Falcon. He spends all of Empire trying and failing to fix it, so I suspect most people with any background in fixing things would be better than Han at fixing the Falcon. The problem that Rey fixes is also clearly established to be a problem that *she* would be familiar with because she worked for the person who caused the problem, while Han would never encounter the problem because he would never install a compressor on his hyperdrive. And as far as flying the Falcon super well? She literally smashes it into the ground. She struggles. She does manage to pull off something cool in desperation, but she's the hero of the story. She's allowed to be cool. If you want to question her general flying abilities, she literally has more reason to be a good pilot than Luke ever did. She works at a shipyard. It's very possible Unkar Plutt had her occasionally moving ships around the yard or possibly to other shipyards on Jakku if they exist. Luke was a poor farmer who is never shown to own a ship or have access to a ship. These complaints are bullshit and I literally rage everytime I see them.

Anyway, the term just doesn't seem to apply based on the flaws criteria, so I don't consider Rey a Mary Sue at all, because she clearly has flaws. While I've demonstrated some of my problems with her abilities, I still don't think she's *that* absurd given what we've seen Luke and Anakin accomplish, as Jet has already alluded to. Something no one ever talks about in Star Wars is that Luke sneaks around the Death Star against trained troops and is able to hold his own. Like he's shown earlier in the film holding a blaster to protect himself from the Tusken Raiders, but how much action has he likely seen? And just as thugs on Jakku aren't the same as Snoke's personal guards, Tusken Raiders aren't the same as Stormtroopers. But he's fine. It's all fine, because Star Wars is a fucking fairy tale.

Posted January 18th by The Bandit

going to go ahead and give myself the for that obnoxious wall of text

Posted January 18th by The Bandit

fair I mainly consider worldbuilding and immersing someone in to the whole experience to be the "artistic" component rather than moralizing or preaching themes. my big issue is that with themes and morals and all that crap critics and lit class professors seem to love is that more often than not everything in the story just becomes a dressed up version of said themes and morals rather than interesting persons and histories in their own right/

Edited January 19th by tnu
tnu

Jet you should definitely watch clone wars.

Posted January 19th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Having rewatched TLJ last night I will take back calling Rey a Mary Sue in TLJ. I think there were bits I had forgotten.

I still think she's way more powerful and capable than she should be, but I also realise that in TLJ the force powers on a whole seem have been ramped up. Snoke casually flinging Rey around the room, Leia's space flight, Luke's illusion from half a galaxy away (or however far it was) so this isn't really an "issue" that's exclusive to Rey herself. Bandit pretty much said anything I could say. She has literally one five minute lesson with Luke and that's the extent of her training.

I guess one thing I could add is that I think Empire Strikes Back takes place over a longer period of time than it initially seems. For one the Falcon hyperdrive is non-functional throughout the entire movie up until the very end when R2D2 fixes it. This means that they must've travelled from Hoth to Cloud City at "regular speeds" (whatever those are). Given it seemingly takes a good chunk of time to go from Tatooine to Alderaan's remains in A New Hope at "lightspeed" one can only imagine it takes a long time to get anywhere without it.

The dialogue with Luke and Yoda at times seems to imply he's been there a while too if I recall correctly. To me it seems like with Luke you're seeing snippets of his training rather than his entire time there.

With Rey you're basically seeing her entire time there as it happens. We know this for certain because she's there for about the same length of time as the space chase is going on and Luke tells her he'll do three lessons, two of which we see (and one is just him telling her why the Jedi are bad) and the third he never delivers because her connection to Kylo causes a conflict between her and Luke.

Posted January 19th by Redack

It's a landslide in favor of Luke, and I'm confused that Jet thinks it's comparable at all.


To clarify, I'm not saying that I think it was handled *better* in TLJ. But whenever I watch any of the first six Star Wars films, I'm a little surprised at how much stock people put into "training" as the end all be all for a person's individual capabilities in the Force. (I'm speaking exclusively about the films. I exclude the EU stuff because, well, I just don't care.)

I agree that Luke's training is handled better in Empire than Rey's is in TLJ. I don't even disagree that training is clearly shown to have an impact on one's abilities. That said, "training" in Star Wars has *always* revolved around meditation. It has always been depicted as primarily mental. There is always a physical component to one's mental health and strength. It's why we see Luke running around. It's why we see Rey doing some physical things too. But the emphasis in training has *always* been primarily mental. The Force isn't like learning guitar, where repetition of a single movement is what makes you stronger. This is seen in both previous trilogies. So, with that in mind, we can safely assume that not everyone is starting at the same point. Not to mention, all the films have established that there is a level of innate abilities.

Going to Luke's "training" in Hope, I can't help but think about what exactly it was Obi-Wan taught him. He says things like, "Remember, the Force flows through you." And "Let go your conscious self." "Stretch out with your feelings."

Yes, this obviously is a key scene in the film for establishing that he would be able to move the proton torpedo, but it's hardly like these are helpful instructions on how to do anything. Except focus.

But he also said, "Act on instinct."

When Luke asks, "You mean it controls your actions?"

To which Obi-Wan says, "Partially."

This isn't to say that users don't have control. But it is to say that *focus* is the key. That it is primarily mental. With the idea that Luke is able to deflect the blaster bolts by acting on instinct and letting the Force flow through him, I don't really think it's that far off to think that Rey could similarly act on instinct and let the Force flow through her while fighting a bunch of Snoke's guards. They are handled differently, and yes, Rey is clearly depicted as having a lot more power. She is also a bit more focused on her mission than Luke ever was (perhaps a byproduct of Obi-Wan's...vagueness...) Luke goes to Obi-Wan because Ben told him to, basically. Rey goes to find Luke because she's on a mission to find him and bring him back into the Resistance. She is clearly on a more focused mission than Luke was. I don't think it's *that* unreasonable to suggest, then, that she is a more focused person than Luke was. (We do even see Luke acting more brash and immature in Hope than Rey did in Awakens.)

I also recall that when Luke tells Yoda that lifting stones is one thing, but lifting the X-Wing is something else altogether, Yoda says, "No! No different. Only different in your mind."

Rey has doubts, for sure, and her detours into Kylo Ren conversations serves as a distraction, she never ultimately falters from her main objectives while on that planet. She seeks training. She is steadfast in her attempts to bring Luke back to his old glory. She calls him out, even. To me, Rey is just simply a more focused person than Luke was, and therefore already starting at a better place for more efficiently learning the Force.

Basically, yes, there is a visual connection in the original trilogy between training and strength in the Force, but it is fundamentally mental in nature. And I don't see why it's not reasonable to think that Rey is simply more focused, or better able to focus than Luke was.

(This also kind of explains why I don't have any issues with the idea that she can stand a chance against Snoke's guards. She went there with a mission and never really seemed to have a moment of doubt until the very end. Seemed to me like she has a pretty good ability to act on instinct, and it had already been established that she can let the force flow through her pretty easily. Again, not saying this is handled as well. I do think this is weaker compared to the originals. I just don't think it is particularly inconsistent with what is established in the prequels. And it's built on Awakens, but I suppose any problems one has with TLJ probably have its roots there, too.)

I do find it interesting, and something that I'm coming to appreciate with all three trilogies thus far, is the different ways people interpret the Force and how it works. I'm offering what my interpretation has been. But it's never actually made explicitly clear. Even with training, there's no real explanation how you go from "reach out with your feelings" to "ok, now move that rock." Even Hope is confusing about whether you control the Force or the Force controls you (Obi-Wan essentially says that it is both which...clears it up, I guess?) I feel like it would be a lot less engaging if it were clearly explained. Like, we never really see ANY training with Anakin in the prequels, even when they do try to explain it scientifically in the Phantom Menace. Fortunately, that explanation doesn't, well, fully explain things and also makes no sense. And it never really comes up again.


she has, like being able to repair the Falcon better than Han or being able to fly the Falcon super well. Han was never good at fixing the Falcon. He spends all of Empire trying and failing to fix it, so I suspect most people with any background in fixing things would be better than Han at fixing the Falcon.


Completely agree. On top of that, I never really bought the idea that fixing one specific problem meant that she was "better at fixing the Falcon than Han was." All that means is that she is a good mechanic. If anything, it just sort of shows that she is at least *as good as* Han.



my big issue is that with themes and morals and all that crap critics and lit class professors seem to love is that more often than not everything in the story just becomes a dressed up version of said themes and morals rather than interesting persons and histories in their own right/


I am not a critic any more than you are, and I'm not a professor in anything. And I love films that want to built around themes and morals because it means that I have to actively watch a film and think critically about what I'm watching. That engages me more, makes things more fun for me, and - usually, though not always - inherently makes characters and worlds more interesting to me.

I speak with a lot of opinions. Certainly, I tend to have strong ones. But there is no wrong way to watch a movie, really. (Well, I do think nitpicking perceived "plot holes" is maybe one wrong way. Batman sneaking into Gotham off-screen isn't a plot hole! It's a movie that uses editing to convey the passing of time and doesn't need to show you every minute detail!) I think watching for lore and immersion is valid, too. That's clearly the strength of The Lord of the Rings trilogy (which also has a lot of themes, too, by the way). And I think that was the strength of the original Star Wars (which also had some themes present, too). It's hard not to have themes in your films or even stories because that is the heart of a good story. I obviously don't have anywhere near as much familiarity or knowledge of the Star Wars extended universe as you have, but the books that I read had plenty of themes within them too.

Posted January 20th by Jet Presto

I am not a critic any more than you are, and I'm not a professor in anything. And I love films that want to built around themes and morals because it means that I have to actively watch a film and think critically about what I'm watching. That engages me more, makes things more fun for me, and - usually, though not always - inherently makes characters and worlds more interesting to me.


yeah it makes them less interesting because it just makes them feel lie fictional constructs that serve as vehicles for that moralizing preachy drivel and I don't have to pay attention because all the stuff they're selling me is the themes and morals. the characters and world are secondary to that at best the themes and morals don't NEED the story if you want to sell me that crap just sell it to me directly rather than sacrificing characters and world to be their glorified messengers. If you remove the characters and world from these types of narratives and just deliver the themes and morals directly nothing is lost but a bunch of glorified couriers. if you write a character as an allegory of Trump and just substitute him for Trump directly it's identical and thus I don't consider him a good character. Theme and moral crap tends to be nothing but a dressed up stand-in for something else rather than interesting in its own right.


Good worldbuilding makes me think and explore and piece things together. Themes and morals just shove themselves down my throat and lecture me the whole time nothing worth thinking about in them They're just spoon feeding me a dressed up moral lecture.


It's not "Deep" or "insightful" it's preachy if your story and character are nothing without just making them an allegory then they're nothing period.


Edited January 20th by tnu
tnu
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