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Politics & Religion


World events, politics and whatever (especially whatever)
WARNING: Posts may contain offensive content and red wine
09/11/2001 WE REMEMBER

"Fear is the foundation of most governments." - John Adams

"My family is more important than my party." - Zell Miller


Have you guys heard about this?



Basically a clothing company called H&M put out this ad and there was instant celebrity backlash, with some even pulling deals with the clothing company. Also a lot of boycotts in general.

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There are 26 Replies

Says more about the people who see racism where there is none, to be honest.

I very much doubt that H&M's intent was race hate.

Of course political correctness has gone too far. Who can honestly say it hasn't gone far enough?

Posted January 10th by Smiling Apple
Smiling Apple

Comparing blacks to animals was used as a dehumanizing tactic, some even had doubts that blacks were human. With that said, the advertisement was more a show of ignorance by poor taste than racism.

Posted January 10th by Blazer72
Blazer72
 

Ya know, everyone keeps saying "political correctness has gone to far," (or, more specifically, white conservatives keep saying that), but I can honestly say that I have never personally been affected by this "problematic rise in political correctness." I dunno. Might just be that I've made it a point to try and show the people around me the same basic human respect and dignity I expect in return, and that when someone takes offense to something I said, I, ya know, listen rather than immediately get defensive and explain how they're wrong for being offended. Maybe it's that as a person trying to be a decent human being, I understand that I don't get to decide how my actions affect other people, just the same as someone else doesn't get to decide whether my feelings are fair or righteous.

As for the ad, no, it isn't "promoting race hate." It IS displaying a complete lack of awareness about a history of insults towards a particular race. Black athletes still get bananas thrown at them sometimes, and the previous president of the country and his wife were sometimes referred to as apes by many of the far right media. I get that this is just an "innocent ad" that at worst shows a lack of awareness, but I'm admittedly having a really hard time understanding why it's soooooo unreasonable people - particularly of color - might have taken offense to that.


Basically a clothing company called H&M put out this ad and there was instant celebrity backlash, with some even pulling deals with the clothing company


As is their right. You can complain about "political correctness" all you want, but you don't really get to be the arbiter of what people find offensive. Ok, you don't think it's offensive or see what the fuss is all about; doesn't mean no one can or should find that offensive.

But I will argue this isn't a problem with "political correctness" (which I still think is the biggest bullshit "boogeyman" argument in all of political discourse). Rather, it's outrage culture, which has deeply infected the right and the left. It's that no Americans, liberal or conservative, seems happy unless they're outraged. You can't tell me that boycotting this makes no sense, but then be fine with conservatives protesting the NFL because a few players made a symbol of protest before the game even started. You can't tell me that "Oscars So White" hashtags are ridiculous, but then have nothing to say about people protesting Star Wars because there's a black stormtrooper. You can't tell me that James Damore should keep his job at Google, but then be silent about those that pressured ESPN to fire Jemele Hill or Katie Nolan. You can't tell me it's great conservatives are making a stink about Facebook allegedly censoring conservative voices, then remain silent as the President of the United States of America uses his platform to try and get Dave Weigel fired from the Washington Post. And I say this like these are all essentially equal scenarios, but they're not identical. Point here being, I question how much of it is "political correctness," and how much of it is just that Americans across the board only seem content when they're outraged. Nothing can ever be a small slight or a matter of disagreement. Can't just be that you don't agree with Jemele Hill (if you're the right) or Bret Stephens (if you're the left) - you have to make it the most important thing in the world, try to get them fired, and impact their ability to earn a living.

Just something to consider.

Posted January 10th by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Anti-political correctness causing people to say, do and vote for stupid, evil shit has also gone too far.

Posted January 10th by pacman
pacman
 

@Jet

Yeah, I remember pointing out awhile back that the right has its own version of political correctness and virtue signaling and provided similar examples, and just as well they are generally equally willing to shut down “dangerous” or “inpatriotic” speech. Unfortunately this fact goes in one ear and out the other when I bring it up to these “anti PC”, “pro free speeh” people.

Edited January 10th by pacman
pacman
 

I'm waiting for the day the left wants to "decolonize" schools by eliminating teaching evolution since Charles Darwin is a dead white man and it teaches that POCs Are a bunch of furless apes.

Posted January 10th by Dr. Doom
Dr. Doom
 

Doom,

I’m not saying the identitarian left isn’t ridiculous, but I would like to point out that what you’re saying is half-joking conjecture. Meanwhile the mainstream right has publicly advocated for erasing the yucky parts of American history that make us seem anything other than perfect, as it offends their sensibilities.

Oh and they have already successfully banned evolution in many schools. But it’s only the left that does this sort of whining and censoring according to you people...

Edited January 10th by pacman
pacman
 

Usually it's white leftists bitching about these things rather than the people of color themselves. I agree, political correctness has gone too far. No one wants to walk on eggshells when speaking. This is just a picture of a black child in a shirt, and the Leftist Witch Hunt Crew, tasked with finding racism under every rock, has taken issue with it to rake in on some virtue signaling points.

Someone could always get offended by something, no point catering to these outliers. It would be preferable if these people just got thicker skin.

Posted January 10th by #85
#85

I have to walk on eggshells around Christian conservative relatives in the south all the goddamn time... it’s not a left or right thing, as Jet pointed out... the collective American psyche is just fragile as shit.

Posted January 10th by pacman
pacman
 



Posted January 10th by Q
Q
 

85,

Comparing blacks to monkeys actually is a form of racism. How are you disregarding historical context and claiming people are overly sensitive?



Posted January 10th by Blazer72
Blazer72
 

Comparing blacks to monkeys actually is a form of racism

Is that what H&M was doing? You don't see me with a pitchfork outside "Cracker Barrel".

Also the whole "People called the Obama's monkeys!" they said that about GWB too.

Posted January 10th by #85
#85

as someone in this industry, i can't believe how many people looked at that image and thought "yeah this won't cause any problems." i would have flagged it asap

it should have been shot flat or on a ghost mannequin lol not on model

Posted January 10th by poptart!
poptart!
 

How dumb do you have to be to not think "hmmmmmm, maybe we shouldn't put the monkey shirt on an African model"? This isn't about if it's racist or not, it's about being a smart marketer. I find it hard to believe that there are advertising people out there that didn't think this would raise questions.

Posted January 10th by nullfather
nullfather

Those who try to equate political correctness with basic politeness are disingenuous at best.

Political correctness demands that human beings are seen purely in terms of their race, gender or sexuality, and that all interactions between human beings are dictated on that basis.

Hopefully, one day, humanity will see past these things. But right now we as a society are pathologically obsessed with superficial characteristics and can not seem to see past them.

How dumb do you have to be to not think "hmmmmmm, maybe we shouldn't put the monkey shirt on an African model"? This isn't about if it's racist or not, it's about being a smart marketer.

It implies that the people involved didn't have a racist bone in their bodies.

They had a cute black kid on their books, and they got him to model their hoodie. They didn't even consider it would cause such controversy because they didn't equate "black kid" with "monkey".

Unlike all the so-called "anti-racist" idiots who erupted into a maelstrom of confected outrage over nothing.

I find it hard to believe that there are advertising people out there that didn't think this would raise questions.

That says more about you than it does about them.

Posted January 10th by Smiling Apple
Smiling Apple

What these "anti-racists" are essentially saying is that black children will never be allowed to model a hoodie with this slogan on it. That there will never be a time when a black child and "monkey" will not be synonymous.

Who are the racists here?

Posted January 10th by Smiling Apple
Smiling Apple

I commend the people over at H&M for being so oblivious that they didn't recognize the unfortunate implication. The world would be a better place if we all had the colorblindness of a Starfleet officer.

I only disagree with the premise of the thread to the extent that I wouldn't say political correctness has "gone too far", for that would imply that there exists a point where it isn't entirely predicated in anti-intellectualism or authoritarianism. As an idea, political correctness is entirely without merit and exists primarily as a vehicle of social control, but on the optimistic side of things the repudiation of PC culture has been severe these last couple years, even if I may not like all that has resulted from it.

it’s not a left or right thing, as Jet pointed out... the collective American psyche is just fragile as shit.

It's mostly a left thing, but I think it's beside the point since it focuses on the wrong axis. It's employed by those that want control over others, and while I think you're somewhat justified in being frustrated with how the anti-pc crowd has framed the issue I still think they've done more good than harm.

Posted January 10th by Famov
Famov

They didn't even consider it would cause such controversy because they didn't equate "black kid" with "monkey".


If that's true, that's actually my point. They're fuckin' stupid if they're not paying attention to how incredibly overboard people go in politicizing media and advertisements nowadays. While this absolutely is not a big deal and is going to blow over in a week or two when the next outrageous thing comes along, it's still a bump in the road that could have been avoided if their marketing/advertising team did their fucking job and paid attention to media trends.

Or maybe this is all some weird publicity ploy. Who knows? Fuck everyone.

Posted January 10th by nullfather
nullfather

They're fuckin' stupid if they're not paying attention to how incredibly overboard people go in politicizing media and advertisements nowadays. While this absolutely is not a big deal and is going to blow over in a week or two when the next outrageous thing comes along, it's still a bump in the road that could have been avoided if their marketing/advertising team did their fucking job and paid attention to media trends.

Do they not deserve credit rather than condemnation for being blind to such "trends"?

Posted January 10th by Smiling Apple
Smiling Apple

Do they not deserve credit rather than condemnation for being blind to such "trends"?


Their job is literally to anticipate how their products are going to be received by the public, so no.

Posted January 10th by nullfather
nullfather

being "color blind" isn't always a virtue. yeah, you're not racist because you didn't see it, that's true. you're in a fucking bubble though. i don't think this hoodie is that bad and it's an honest mistake, but i'm sure a lot of people don't want to be reminded of racist insults when shopping for a hoodie for their kid.

i'll let them raise the issue, though, because #85 is right about white leftists being the ones who get angry at this shit more often than actual people of color.

Edited January 10th by poptart!
poptart!
 

"Their job is literally to anticipate how their products are going to be received by the public, so no"

yeah, i would get a taking to if i let this go live

Posted January 10th by poptart!
poptart!
 

I mean. There is a lot of stupid shit that is going overboard and makes no sense. High-and-Tight/undercuts being a fascist haircut for example fuck off with that nonsense. But this is perfectly understandable tbh. Even if it wasn't their intent it's really quite clear why people find it so offensive and frankly I don't blame them for it.

Edited January 10th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium

Is that what H&M was doing? You don't see me with a pitchfork outside "Cracker Barrel". Also the whole "People called the Obama's monkeys!" they said that about GWB too.

You're obfuscating. The point is, there's already been a historical precedence set. To people who understand how blacks have been dehumanized within the context of American society, they see this H&M ad and pick up on the subversive nature of the advertisement. Are white people more often associated with resembling monkeys than black people? I seriously doubt it.

My question would be, to anyone that's even had a solid understanding of how blacks have been viewed in our society, why they would make this sort of advertisement and assume it'd be deemed acceptable in light of how blacks are often compared to monkeys? I can tell you first hand people have done this shit to me and preface it with "no offense" knowing damn well that it is offensive.

In other words, you don't have to say shit like "I hate niggers" to be racist. There's more indirect ways to still exhibit this to appear innocuous.

They had a cute black kid on their books, and they got him to model their hoodie. They didn't even consider it would cause such controversy because they didn't equate "black kid" with "monkey".

How do you know that? Were you in on those meetings? You really think all of these people in marketing are just completely oblivious to this?

What these "anti-racists" are essentially saying is that black children will never be allowed to model a hoodie with this slogan on it. That there will never be a time when a black child and "monkey" will not be synonymous.

No. What they are saying is they won't ignore any subversive discourse.

Who are the racists here?

This is an interesting question. Who are you to determine what these people should or should not be offended by? If the subject of race comes up and something is being pointed out, there's always a crowd wanting to silence those who are speaking out. But you have the luxury of this. You don't see this as a problem because it's not your humanity as a person being called into question. But to someone else who understands and has experienced the marginalization, the discourse changes.

Edited January 10th by Blazer72
Blazer72
 

has taken issue with it to rake in on some virtue signaling points.

Usually it's white leftists bitching about these things rather than the people of color themselves


And yet, it's okay for the right to virtue-signal in their own ways. Just as pacman pointed out, this can happen with both sides of the political spectrum.

Also just as you may get offended if someone brought up the fact that they're white and used it against you or used it to dehumanize you, if you had fairness about it you would be understanding as to why some black people are clearly upset about this too. In fact the only one here is arguing against it.

You don't see me with a pitchfork outside "Cracker Barrel".


The difference though is that "Cracker Barrel" is not referring to you. When you wear a shirt like that, it kind of gives the implication that it's referring to you. Honestly though, people with pitchforks and torches outside of a cracker barrel sounds like a hilariously amusing event.

What these "anti-racists" are essentially saying is that black children will never be allowed to model a hoodie with this slogan on it.


While I get why you would come to that conclusion, it's the same reason you wouldn't want a white kid wearing a shirt that says "the saltiest cracker in the box" or something to that effect. No one said they can't model with shirts or hoodies, it just doesn't look good.

That there will never be a time when a black child and "monkey" will not be synonymous.


I kind of get what you're trying to say but surely you realize that the reason people are outraged in the first place is precisely BECAUSE some people still see them as synonymous? Is it not crystal clear that actual racists still exist to this day? They want the exact opposite of that.

Sure, I doubt it was the company's intention but surely you can understand where the outrage is coming from if you keep that in mind.

Edited January 10th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium

Yeah, does anyone think that hoodie was actually a GOOD idea? Even moderately? Best case scenario it was in horrible taste. It only goes south from there.

Part of the reason people have become so "fragile" is because animosity is still real and vulnerabilities heightened as a result of our ruling-class economy. The US is already in a state of perpetual restless political turmoil and life is becoming more difficult every day. This is not exactly a great time to advertise your business by putting an African American child in a hoodie that says "Coolest monkey in the jungle."

Honestly, I'm blanking out right now because of how shitty the political and economic situation has gotten. Our history will forever be stained by what we thought and what we did this time. And there really is no stopping it.

Posted January 10th by mariomguy
mariomguy
Reply to: Political correctness has gone too far

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