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World events, politics and whatever (especially whatever)
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09/11/2001 WE REMEMBER

"Fear is the foundation of most governments." - John Adams

"My family is more important than my party." - Zell Miller


From The New York Times:


As Girls Arrive, Boy Scouts Change Name of Flagship Program

For 108 years, the Boy Scouts of America's flagship program has been known simply as the Boy Scouts. With girls soon entering the ranks, the group says that iconic name will change.

The organization on Wednesday announced a new name for its Boy Scouts program: Scouts BSA. The change will take effect in February.

Chief Scout Executive Mike Surbaugh said many possibilities were considered during lengthy and "incredibly fun" deliberations before the new name was chosen.

"We wanted to land on something that evokes the past but also conveys the inclusive nature of the program going forward," he said. "We're trying to find the right way to say we're here for both young men and young women."

The parent organization will remain the Boy Scouts of America, and the Cub Scouts — its program serving children from kindergarten through fifth grade — will keep its title, as well.

But the Boy Scouts — the program for 11- to 17-year-olds — will now be Scouts BSA.

The organization already has started admitting girls into the Cub Scouts, and Scouts BSA begins accepting girls next year.

Surbaugh predicted that both boys and girls in Scouts BSA would refer to themselves simply as scouts, rather than adding "boy" or "girl."

The program for the older boys and girls will largely be divided along gender-lines, with single-sex units pursuing the same types of activities, earning the same array of merit badges and potentially having the same pathway to the coveted Eagle Scout award.

Surbaugh said that having separate units for boys and girls should alleviate concerns that girls joining the BSA for the first time might be at a disadvantage in seeking leadership opportunities.

So far, more than 3,000 girls have joined roughly 170 Cub Scout packs participating in the first phase of the new policy, and the pace will intensify this summer under a nationwide multimedia recruitment campaign titled "Scout Me In."

On social media, there was widespread criticism of the name change, generally suggesting it's a misguided display of political correctness that undercuts the Boy Scouts' legacy. But many other people dismissed such criticism as an overreaction.

"Get over it," Kevin Aldrich, a member-at-large with a Boy Scout council in central Indiana, told The Indianapolis Star. "There is every reason to be co-ed. The Future Farmers of America is co-ed. 4-H is co-ed. Band in school is co-ed."

Dr. Eugene Gu, a physician at Vanderbilt University Medical Center and CEO of a biotech company, said on Twitter that the outrage is misplaced. He views the name change as a business decision.

"With declining membership, they need the girls or it would be called Bankrupt Scouts," Gu tweeted.

The name change comes amid strained relations between the Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts of America.

Girl Scout leaders said they were blindsided by the move, and they are gearing up an aggressive campaign to recruit and retain girls as members.

Among the initiatives is creation of numerous new badges that girls can earn, focusing on outdoor activities and on science, engineering, technology and math. The organization is expanding corporate partnerships in both those areas, and developing a Girl Scout Network Page on LinkedIn to support career advancement for former Girl Scouts.

"Girl Scouts is the premier leadership development organization for girls," said Sylvia Acevedo, the Girl Scouts' CEO. "We are, and will remain, the first choice for girls and parents who want to provide their girls opportunities to build new skills ... and grow into happy, successful, civically engaged adults."

The Girl Scouts and the BSA are among several major youth organizations in the U.S. experiencing sharp drops in membership in recent years. Reasons include competition from sports leagues, a perception by some families that they are old-fashioned and busy family schedules.

The Boy Scouts say current youth participation is about 2.3 million, down from 2.6 million in 2013 and more than 4 million in peak years of the past.

The Girl Scouts say they have about 1.76 million girls and more than 780,000 adult members, down from just over 2 million youth members and about 800,000 adult members in 2014.

The overall impact of the BSA's policy change on Girl Scouts membership won't be known any time soon. But one regional leader, Fiona Cummings of Girl Scouts of Northern Illinois, believes the BSA's decision to admit girls is among the factors that have shrunk her council's youth membership by more than 500 girls so far this year.

She said relations with the Boy Scouts in her region used to be collaborative and now are "very chilly."

"How do you manage these strategic tensions?" she asked. "We both need to increase our membership numbers."

Surbaugh said BSA's national leadership respected the Girl Scouts' program and hoped both organizations could gain strength.

"If the best fit for your girl is the Girl Scouts, that's fantastic," he said. "If it's not them, it might be us."

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/05/02/us/ap-us-boy-scouts-name-change-.html
The Boy Scouts are no more, having excised what remained of their soul in desperation.

The most interesting part of this is the reaction from the Girl Scouts. This, along with the policy change to start accepting girls in the first place, has been seen by the Girl Scouts as an attempt to undermine their own recruitment. Both of these "Scout" groups are independent organizations, and now they compete for members. The likely impetus for emasculating the Boy Scouts and the very public anxiety of the Girl Scouts speaks to the same problem: They've both experienced serious recruitment woes in recent years. While most will look at the political context framing the issue it actually seems to me that the motivation here is more of a pragmatic one. The Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, both venerable American institutions, are so bad off that one has attempted to cannibalize the other in a bid for its own survival. Assuming I haven't misread the situation, that is a serious shame. I hope the Girl Scouts win.

“There cannot be greater rudeness than to interrupt another in the current of his discourse.” - John Locke
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There are 37 Replies

Not even the damn military is male-only, so the Scouts was a backwards holdout.

Posted May 2nd by nullfather
nullfather

I never had the pleasure of being in the boy scouts (I dont think there is a troop in my area even if they were I dont think the majority of first generation americans would know about it) but it is my understanding that what you learn in the boy scouts is largely different than what one would learn in the girl scouts.


The boy scouts do pretty cool things like camping and learning survival skills (from what ive seen) where as the only thing I see the girl scouts do is sale cookies and bug me for donations. (This has been my experience would love for some one whose worked with both groups to give me the load down)

If I am right. Which I believe I am based on my interactions with either group. There is no real reason why young girls should not be able to join the boy scouts. I rather have my daughters partake in boy scouts activities and learn real tangible skills than sell over priced stale cookies to high college students.

Edited May 2nd by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

Unless they've drastically changed their lineup, iirc the girls I knew back in the 90s used to complain that the girl scouts didn't do all the cool outdoors stuff the boy scouts did. So this is probably a good thing -- should get the girl scouts to get their shit together.

Iirc there was a lot of emasculation of the boy scouts already going on in the 00s with the whole "oh hey we're not going to build actual fires anymore" thing. Then there were some pedophilia scandals. So this is probably more why their membership is so lacking more than anything else.

Posted May 2nd by Xhin
Xhin
 

Well, considering the vast majority of Scouting organisations outside the US (at least in the Commonwealth) are mixed gender, it'd only be joining a wider trend. The "Boy" was dropped in the late 1960s in the UK. The competition with Girl Scouts part is a bit weird though.

I enjoyed it when I did it, wholesome even if a little old-fashioned. The main thing I benefited from was the obsession with outdoor activities (namely nautical and mountaineering) which I regret not doing anymore. Scouting gave you reason to do it with like-minded people.

Posted May 2nd by Arch
Arch
 

non-issue

Posted May 2nd by poptart!
poptart!
 

non-issue

Absolutely agree.

Posted May 3rd by Psygnosis
Psygnosis

I've actually attended boy scouts for a weekend. It was fun! We did a lot of crafts, but I can't remember much because it was so long ago.

The American Boy Scouts started when an American man W. D. Boyce received help from a boy scout in London, offered a tip, but the scout refused the tip, saying he was merely acting out of duty as a boy scout. Boyce started the scouts program in America a few months later.

There's no inherent reason for the scout program to be limited to boys. People who find an issue with this are probably the people who still cling on to flip phones.

Posted May 3rd by mariomguy
mariomguy

I am an eagle0 scout tbh! One of my scout mates actually just added me on the switch yesterday and came to my house last year for my birthday along with fox and however and my friends. My scoutmate happens to be a huge Zelda and Metroid fan and also plays lots of Xbox (has played halo for HOURS). Claims that botw is the hardest Zelda game he’s played mostly cause of the difficulty to counterattack.

Posted May 3rd by Weid man
Weid man
 

Make women more masculine, make men more feminine, that's the NWO and leftist agenda.

Posted May 4th by #85
#85

Make women more masculine, make men more feminine, that's the NWO and leftist agenda.


How is the presence of two genders going to destroy either of them? If anything, this will reinforce them.

Posted May 4th by nullfather
nullfather

Til the number 1 fighting force in the world is the result of the leftist agenda.

Makes sense. The united states military is a microism of the capitalist welfare state the left wants.

Posted May 4th by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 

I was a scout. Never made it to eagle though but I was in it for years. I don't really see anything wrong with including everyone in this. Makes me wonder what they will do about the two sexes intermingling (the buddy system and tent situations for example).

Unless they've drastically changed their lineup, iirc the girls I knew back in the 90s used to complain that the girl scouts didn't do all the cool outdoors stuff the boy scouts did. So this is probably a good thing -- should get the girl scouts to get their shit together.

Yes this is a contested thing. Girl Scouts occasionally did some things but they didn't do too many outdoors events whereas in Boy Scouts we had them like at least twice a month. It was a pretty cool thing. I understand them wanting to do more outdoors like activities. Plus you can put eagle scout on a resume and it will benefit you but putting the highest rank of girl scouts probably won't help at all.

Being a scout is about growing as a person. Not doing all this "manly" shit. In Scouts you also had to do research on your community, country, etc. and have projects. There are also merit badges for less masculine things like dentistry, bird study, coin collecting, chess, painting, music etc.

Posted May 4th by Fox Forever
Fox Forever

Chess, one of the greatest strategy games of all time, is not considered to be a masculine activity? What the fuck is this high school.

lets be real here the people that take issue with this would prefer women to serve as domestic servants for the rest of their lives. They see no need for women in the work force, the military, or in higher education. They view women as domestic servants whose only job is to clean, cook and pop out babies.

I'm willing to bet that a percentage of these individuals would move to strip a woman's right to vote at a moment's notice if given the opportunity.




Posted May 4th by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 

Chess, one of the greatest strategy games of all time, is not considered to be a masculine activity? What the fuck is this high school.

I mean at least not to me. There's nothing inherently masculine about it unless you want to count it just due to the spirit of competition. In which case literally anything can be masculine.

They see no need for women in the work force, the military, or in higher education. They view women as domestic servants whose only job is to clean, cook and pop out babies.

Well as the old generation gets older and dies this train of thought will hopefully get less and less popular. I doubt it will go away completely, though.

Posted May 4th by Fox Forever
Fox Forever

I am an eagle0 scout tbh!

Did you reach the rank of superbird?

non-issue

In fact, it's even more of a non issue than the article would imply, though I hadn't realized it when I made this thread. Apparently it's only the scouting program itself that is being changed to Scouts BSA. The greater organization will continue to be known as (the now anachronistic) Boy Scouts of America. In other words, they only had the courage to partially rebrand. This way the boys and girls of the Scouts aren't boy scouts, but they are scouts of Boy Scouts of America. It nearly makes sense!

Honestly I was channeling my inner tnu when I made the thread. The notion that they were symbolically gelding the boy scouts got under my skin infinitely more than the fact that they were allowing young girls to participate in a valuable program. To be even more honest, I hold onto the smallest bit of regret that I never became a scout. I think it would have been a good experience for the timid, indoorsy kid that I most certainly was, just as it is for almost everyone else that joins.

Posted May 4th by Famov
Famov

"Well as the old generation gets older and dies this train of thought will hopefully get less and less popular"

flu season is the republican party's greatest enemy

Posted May 4th by poptart!
poptart!
 

"The greater organization will continue to be known as (the now anachronistic) Boy Scouts of America. In other words, they only had the courage to partially rebrand. This way the boys and girls of the Scouts aren't boy scouts, but they are scouts of Boy Scouts of America. It nearly makes sense!"

as a copywriter, the complicated nature of the phrase "scouts of Boy Scouts of America" hurts my stomach

Posted May 4th by poptart!
poptart!
 

Chess, one of the greatest strategy games of all time


I would highly disagree but it being classical and well known makes it seem as such. It's rather simplistic compared to a lot of lesser known strategy games that exist today.

Edited May 4th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium

name one

Posted May 4th by poptart!
poptart!
 

What defines "best" depends on multiple factors that may be subject to personal opinion however if we're talking strategy that actually challenges your brain and can potentially make you think about every decision then a lot of strategy video games existing in modern times already easily have it beat.

The simple formula of chess does indeed work but I would argue that once you learn what everything does and master it you'll find that there really isn't much you can actually learn from it or much to do with it in comparison. Matches between chess champions are pretty much matches between two people who have mastered a rather simplistic game and both undoubtedly know enough to simply just end up playing until one has a critical brain derp, thus the result ends up being more based on luck.

And so I present anything from grander strategy games like civilization to even more simplistic ones like advance wars. Course you may have to tinker with some settings to get the true strategy experience you're looking for but still.

Edited May 9th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium

How much chess have you played, Knokkel?

Edited May 4th by nullfather
nullfather

lol

Posted May 4th by poptart!
poptart!
 

Rule 2a rule 4b. The fact that know my real name (it was edited out by a mod for context of my saying this) despite my never telling you just proves my theory that you were weirdly negatively obsessed with me and that ritual had the purpose I thought it did.

Quite a lot in the past though. It was boring as fuck though.

Edited May 4th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium

lol


"I don't know anything about what he said so I'm just going to laugh because my ego dictates that I am right about everything"

Posted May 4th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium

ill give u a better response later

Posted May 4th by poptart!
poptart!
 

Inb4 an argument akin to "To Be Fair, You Have To Have a Very High IQ to Understand Rick and Morty"

Posted May 4th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium

I like how Null is doxxing over here but it's okay because only one mod is around. I like how it's also still unclear to me if anything will actually be done about it.

Posted May 4th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium

Hey Knokkel, sorry no one was around. I edited your private information out of the comment in question.

I'll bring up the matter with null as well.

Posted May 4th by Cetasaurus
Cetasaurus
AKA: Kyogre

I worked my way up the ranks in scouting and did my work but really only talked gaming amongst my scouts since that’s been my only hobby throughout my life except for a few new hobires that I made within the last decade. I’ve for gaming friends all around the globe but locally and nationally and internationally. Luckily I love in a very big city and close to Los Angeles. One of my scoutmates was really bummed that they removed the ice climbers in smash 4, he worked his arse off to master them in melee.

Did you know that the buddy system initialls are pdqBALLS Fox? That means that where’ve you go you must stand with Apollo! Every breath you take every step you take she’ll be watching you.

Edited May 4th by Weid man
Weid man
 

Back in the late 70s and early 80s I was a member and later leader (title was 'Advisor') of a BSA Explorer search and rescue group. We had both male and female members so the name change is long overdue or irrelevant depending on your perspective.

For those of you interested and able to run off at a moments notice I would recommend joining. My employer at the time had no problem with me taking time off with short notice while another leader's employer told him to choose between keeping his job and going on searches with little notice.


Apparently one of the corporate executives saw me on the national news wearing the company vest with logo. He called our corporate branch and told them to let me go anytime I was called on a search.

Posted May 5th by Psygnosis
Psygnosis

Quite a lot in the past though.


OK. Did you ever play competitively? Did you ever read books on chess strategy?

Posted May 5th by nullfather
nullfather

Well depends on what you mean by competitively. If you mean some big tournament or something, then no. But you don't really need to once you know your way around and you get a glimpse into how a few masters play. Like just try to tell me that a game involving chess masters doesn't just boil down to who has a brain derp first. It's pretty much what happens, they just keep at it until one can't think straight in a moment even after thinking it over and then they think a bad move may be a good one because their mind probably forgot one factor or at times even overlooked it.

It's painfully obvious to me that the only reason it's still so acclaimed is because people are used to it and don't know how to make these big things out of other strategy games yet. Or people just like simpler things, which is fine. It's fine to have chess where it is. The only thing I take issue with is that it is "the greatest strategy game of all time" and related.

I mean sure "esports" are a thing, but I haven't actually heard of it with strategy games. It's probably technically a thing just not a big thing quite yet.

Edited May 5th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium

So you have no competitive experience and haven't studied chess strategy, but you're perfectly willing to completely oversimplify the situation by essentially saying "it just boils down to who doesn't play as good", not considering anything but the most absolutely shallow appearances of how the game turns out?

The only thing I take issue with is that it is "the greatest strategy game of all time" and related.


I agree. There are other games such as Go that could easily challenge chess for that title.

Posted May 6th by nullfather
nullfather

You know, it's funny how you chastised Mariomguy for speaking about things he didn't experience firsthand so negatively to people who have, yet here you are doing the same basic thing.

So you're willing to act like you know anything at all on the subject compared to me and you're going to act like you're a master of chess who has been to tournaments pretending like I'm oversimplifying it because you're subtly trolling.

"it just boils down to who doesn't play as good"


It doesn't, but I always find it amusing that people can master it so easily that it pretty much always boils down to who fucks up first. As you implied, it is really complicated. The only problem aside from your trolling is my explaining it in a simple way. The real argument has always been how simple it is and how little potential it has in comparison for strategic value. That is really just an amusing observation that has nothing to do with the argument.

But if you think a simplistic game like chess is just me oversimplifying it well, it's glaringly obvious that I'm not the one oversimplifying anything.


I agree. There are other games such as Go that could easily challenge chess for that title.


GO is better but evidently, there are many strategy video games that could also fill this role and if you're so sure that I'm wrong explain why instead of trolling me vs Mariomguy style. Oh wait you can't because you don't actually know much about either. You've only had very minimal experience with BOTH.

Edited May 6th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium

I should clarify though that when I said it is complicated, I meant it's complicated attempting to explain exactly what goes into a strategy game in general and what makes it great and it's much more complicated to compare it to multiple and I just don't care enough to do that. So ya, you can believe what you want but you're wrong.

Also most importantly even if it's irrelevant: chess is pure garbage and it's boring as fuck. I don't know who would want to play it in this day and age for fun unless they really have SO little clue as to the amount of fucking everything that now exists. There is no excuse to be playing chess for fun. Don't take that as aggression though, I just want to be clear I don't get why anyone would want to play that shit. Play other strategy games that have a ton more general depth.

Edited May 6th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium

Again, trying to "boil it down to who fucks up first" is just making a facile surface-level statement. Repeating it doesn't change that. On the other hand, I could easily poke holes in "strategy video games" for employing vagaries and dexterity tricks that actually trivialize them, depending on which games you're willing to say are better than chess.

Posted May 6th by nullfather
nullfather

Good thing that isn't what I was doing as I already explained to you. At this point, you're desperately digging for anything you can troll me with. And if you're not, how do you reach the point of reading near the opposite of what I actually said in that post and think I was simply repeating it? I was saying "who fucks up first" wasn't EVEN a point of my argument. Just an amusing observation.

On the other hand, I could easily poke holes in "strategy video games" for employing vagaries and dexterity tricks that actually trivialize them, depending on which games you're willing to say are better than chess.


You would be talking out of your ass though.

Edited May 6th by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium
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