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Politics & Religion


World events, politics and whatever (especially whatever)
WARNING: Posts may contain offensive content and red wine
09/11/2001 WE REMEMBER

"Fear is the foundation of most governments." - John Adams

"My family is more important than my party." - Zell Miller


More necessary “collateral damage”:
https://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/news/world_news/female-gazan-medic-killed-while-caring-for-protesters-at-border/article_47accb96-151d-5094-91b5-88218529e813.html
Razan Najjar, 21, was killed as evening fell on Friday as thousands of Palestinians converged in five places along the border. In addition to throwing rocks and burning tires, protesters sent explosive kites over the fence, burning hundreds of acres of fields in southern Israel. Protesters also fired on an Israeli military vehicle and planted explosives along the fence meant to detonate on Israeli soldiers, according to the Israel Defense Forces.

The IDF said in a statement that it responded with “riot dispersal means” and operated “in accordance with the rules of engagement.” It said it would investigate Najjar’s death.

Ibrahim al-Najjar, 30, a relative of the killed medic, told the New York Times that Raza Najjar ran close to the fence care for a protester who had been hit in the head by a tear-gas canister, and was shot as she cared for him. She was wearing a white medical coat.

The Gaza Health Ministry told reporters that Najjar and other medics all wearing white medical coats walked together toward the fence with their arms raised to evacuate the injured protesters when she was shot.

Najjar was the only person killed on Friday, bringing the total during ten weeks of rioting to 118, with about half of those killed on May 14.

——————————————

So basically, the IDF are horrible murderers. Discuss.

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There are 25 Replies

Americans: Support boycotts, divestment and sanctions against Israel. These IDF scumbags don’t deserve your tax dollars.

Posted June 4th by pacman
pacman
 

The title of this thread is indicative of the bad faith with which you approach the subject. It's shameful, frankly.

As always the simplest explanation is most likely: that this nurse was accidentally hit in crossfire. But we don't know whether or not this is true. We don't know anything, which is why your blanket acceptance of the Hamas line is so egregious. Even more egregious, however, is what you make implicit in your condemnation: You don't accept that Israel has a right to defend itself from, and I quote your own excerpt, "the thousands of Palestinians" that "converged in five places along the border. In addition to throwing rocks and burning tires, protesters sent explosive kites over the fence, burning hundreds of acres of fields in southern Israel. Protesters also fired on an Israeli military vehicle and planted explosives along the fence meant to detonate on Israeli soldiers...". If you did, you would accept that this occasionally requires the use of deadly force. Hamas calls this the "Great March of Return". They are the ones instigating the violence and using Israel's anniversary as a pretext. What else is Israel supposed to do? That's not a rhetorical question. If it is not proper for Israel to respond to acts of violence and terror in the way that is expected from every other nation state in existence then you need to at least provide an alternative. But that gives up the game right there, doesn't it? Nothing will ever be good enough for you. You humor the fantasy of a two state solution under the obviously false assumption that the Palestinians would ever dream of consenting to it. You don't just accept Palestinian terrorism as an inevitability, you think it is wholesale justified. You think, four generations on, they are right to burn Israeli fields and murder their soldiers.

#85, Pink, and mguy are at least willing to admit that they refuse to accept Israel's legitimacy. Why not do the same? That last question is rhetorical, because to refuse Israel's legitimacy is to not have a serious opinion on the subject or likely any other to do with national sovereignty.

Edited June 5th by Famov
Famov

Actually I ripped the headline from Secular Talk. I like the attention-grabbing straightforwardness myself, but go bitch to Kyle if you’re legitimately offended. I’m sure you can find sympathetic right wing snowflakes to turn it into a cause.

I’ll read/respond to the rest of your post later.

Posted June 5th by pacman
pacman
 

More disappointed than offended, but that disappointment evaporates when I realize it's Secular Talk. You can't be disappointed by expected behavior, but it is still disingenuous - and shameful - all the same.



Posted June 5th by Famov
Famov

Lunch break, I can address you briefly.

The title of this thread is indicative of the bad faith with which you approach the subject. It's shameful, frankly.

I’ve been seeing more and more of this “bad faith” shit in neocon/pro-imperialism circles, where rather than addressing the policy or news story being discussed, they immediately accuse their opponents of some sort of malicious, conspiratorial slander. I first noticed it with Sam Harris, and now it’s a staple of the right, especially whenever discussing inperialism or Israel-Palestine. Also, I pretty much only see this tactic applied by this specific set of people on these specific issues, which indicates to me that they don’t have any real arguments.

As for Palestine instigating, I’d take your point more seriously if this were a one off tragedy where an innocent person dies due to Israel trying to deal with Hamas. But they’ve been doing this since well before the Jerusalem ordeal, innocent person after innocent person. Medics, reporters, children, etc. How much destruction will it take for neocons to realize that Israel’s shit stinks too, possibly more so? You paint one picture of this mess, but the disparate death toll between Israelis vs. Palestinians in this conflict tells a whole different story.

Edited June 5th by pacman
pacman
 

Would also like to point put that I could feasibly fill the entire first page of this forum with stories of innocent Palestinians being murdered. Could Famov say the same of Israeli civilian casualties?

Posted June 5th by pacman
pacman
 

I first noticed it with Sam Harris, and now it’s a staple of the right

The "right" must be a big umbrella indeed if we can fit Sam Harris underneath it.

Could Famov say the same of Israeli civilian casualties?

Sorry Noam, but a higher death toll doesn't confer moral righteousness. They'd kill every Israeli if they could, but they can't and for it the IDF deserves nothing short of praise. The Iron Dome is a testament to Israeli ingenuity, and Hamas rocketfire is a testament to Islamist barbarism.

You didn't answer the question though. What is Israel supposed to do? The unwillingness of so many to address that question probably is malicious. I have no problem ascribing what are evidently bad intentions to them until they at least attempt to appeal to reality in some way. Acknowledging that Israel cannot allow people to storm the border, attack soldiers, and burn fields is a good place to start.

Edited June 5th by Famov
Famov

The "right" must be a big umbrella indeed if we can fit Sam Harris underneath it.

The neocon umbrella actually is rather large amd includes many social liberals such as Harris. I don’t care how much Harris loves the gays and opposes theocracy if he is ok with the state committing an infinite number of atrocities because they were supposedly “accidents”.



Also I’ve got news for this “intentions matter” crowd:

A) Israel’s and America’s intenions aren’t always good and noble; America especially is motivated far more by personal greed and geopolitical nonsense than by moral conviction. Anyone who thinks our foreign policy (in this case, endless support for Israel) is based on morality of any sort is naive and delusional.

B) Intentions matter, but so does the death toll, especially when one side bears almost all of the casualties.


C) Even if we assume good moral character and intentions of US leadership (fucking lol but I will play along), accidentally killing someone (even in the name of noble heroics) is still a serious crime. Ever heard of manslaughter?

Posted June 5th by pacman
pacman
 

Last week, Hamas launched 50 rockets and mortars at Israel, indiscriminately, with no regard to innocent life. They accidentally hit power lines supplying electricity to southern Gaza, which left thousands of Palestinians without electricity.

Once the attack had ended, the Israelis repaired the power lines and restored the supply to southern Gaza.

There are a few bad eggs in the IDF, sure. Israel has made mistakes. But it is under constant attack, and Israel punishes those found guilty of wrongdoing.

On the contrary, the Palestinians have dedicated themselves to committing indiscriminate acts of violence against Jews, from ordinary people on the street right up to the leadership. The Arab states have purposely kept the Palestinians in squalid refugee camps to use as a stick to beat the West. And yet despite all this the left hold a particular and peculiar hatred for Israel.

You have to wonder why.

Posted June 5th by Smiling Apple
Smiling Apple

What is Israel supposed to do? The unwillingness of so many to address that question probably is malicious. I have no problem ascribing what are evidently bad intentions to them until they at least attempt to appeal to reality in some way. Acknowledging that Israel cannot allow people to storm the border, attack soldiers, and burn fields is a good place to start.

They never, ever answer this question. Because they can't.

The best you'll get is that Israel should just be nice and the Palestinians would simply roll over and live and let live.

They live in a fantasy land. That's why they ascribe malicious intentions to Israel, but Israel's real world actions do not square with the fairy tale they've invented in their heads.

Edited June 5th by Smiling Apple
Smiling Apple

A lot of "no u" in this thread

Posted June 5th by Brocken Jr.
Brocken Jr.
 

Dark ness started that meme and then I parroted him and then speed started mocking me for it back a decade ago.

Posted June 5th by weid man
weid man
 

That last question is rhetorical, because to refuse Israel's legitimacy is to not have a serious opinion on the subject or likely any other to do with national sovereignty.

Convenient that a country built on land stolen from one nation, traded back to that nation in exchange for a deal reneged on and then sold to an entirely different private buyer is of unshakable legitimacy within seventy short years? I wish YOU'D just admit that you only support Israel's legitimacy over the ghettos it has turned Palestine into because Israel has intensely Western sensibilities and continues to serve as our favorite little settler state.

Posted June 6th by Pink Peruvian Flying Bear
Pink Peruvian Flying Bear

In what way did the Israelis "steal" their own land? It was bought legitimately piece by piece - land that was nothing but arid desert before the Israelis made something of it. Subsequent territorial acquisitions were made in wars of self-defence against attacks made by a united Arab front that sought to wipe the Jews off the map. Most of those acquisitions have been given backbto the Arabs. That which Israel has retained has been retained for legitimate security reasons, and the Jewish state has a history of forcibly removing settlers who breach Israeli law.

Posted June 6th by Smiling Apple
Smiling Apple

Also I’ve got news for this “intentions matter” crowd:

This is less news than it is weak rhetorical points that are barely worth responding to. Israel's intention, and this is bore out by the results, is to be a state with actual functioning institutions and the rule of law. That these are liberal institutions only makes their case stronger, but there's hardly any need if we're using Palestinian leadership as a point of comparison.

You still didn't answer the question though, and I'm going to be rather insistent about this. What are the Israelis supposed to do about these recent attacks? Should they allow the Great March of Return past the fences? Should their soldiers be ordered to lay down their weapons even as they're fired upon? It's important that we establish this.

Convenient that a country built on land stolen from one nation, traded back to that nation in exchange for a deal reneged on and then sold to an entirely different private buyer is of unshakable legitimacy within seventy short years?

Your framing is characteristically wrong, but the Israelis could have been sea monsters from the Mediterranean for all I care. Israel is legitimate by virtue of what it is right now, the same as America. Israel's founding actually involves fewer sins than that of most other nations, if we're keeping track, though I can't help but notice that the left is rather selective about its acknowledgement of these things. And while I realize the far left isn't always completely "with it" on the concept of nation states you should be able to recognize that they are rather ubiquitous at the moment.

To answer your question though, 70 years is long enough. Almost everyone that was ever driven from their homes is long dead. In another couple decades there will be none left. Their great grandchildren have no claim to anything other than what they've made of their own lives, the same as the rest of humanity. With that in mind, the Palestinians live in a squalor of their own making. They receive billions in aid and spend hundreds of millions in pursuit of terrorism and the sympathy of morons.

Edited June 6th by Famov
Famov

Who saw the video of a Israeli sniper shooting an unarmed Palestinian walking around and then laughing about it?

Posted June 6th by #85
#85

Israel is legitimate by virtue of what it is right now, the same as America.

Yeah, yeah, occupation is nine-tenths of the law. Some philosophy! That's me stealing your wallet and explaining to the authorities when they show up "See, it's in *my* pocket, so it's *my* wallet."

Israel's founding actually involves fewer sins than that of most other nations though I can't help but notice that the left is rather selective about its acknowledgement of these things

look buddy I can name a couple hundred of those nations that aren't currently herding the population into reservations and ghettos

To answer your question though, 70 years is long enough. Almost everyone that was ever driven from their homes is long dead. In another couple decades there will be none left. Their great grandchildren have no claim to anything other than what they've made of their own lives, the same as the rest of humanity.

Right, so, just take what you want and sit on it long enough and eventually your nation will justify itself. Sure have come a long way since feudal times, huh

With that in mind, the Palestinians live in a squalor of their own making. They receive billions in aid and spend hundreds of millions in pursuit of terrorism and the sympathy of morons.

The Palestinian realizes his folly! He smacks his head and rushes to join his Israeli fellows on the other side! He dies in a hail of bullets and Israel accuses him of making them look bad by dying on Israel's side of the fence.

Posted June 8th by Pink Peruvian Flying Bear
Pink Peruvian Flying Bear

Just saw an unarmed Palestinian girl get executed (shot in the back) by an IDF Jew. Would post but its NSFW.

Posted June 9th by #85
#85

Can I post it with a NSFW warning? I think some people would be interested

@nullfather

Posted June 9th by #85
#85

Post a link to it without embedding the actual video and say at the top that it's NSFW.

Posted June 9th by Count Dooku
Count Dooku

What Dook said.

Posted June 9th by nullfather
nullfather

@Famov

“What is Israel supposed to do?” is a pointless question, because it’s not as though Israel is beholden to anyone or the Palestinians have any real power. Israel can essentially do what it wants with impunity. The real question is, what are Palestinians supposed to do?

However, my hypothetical answer (if it were possible to put pressure on Israel) is, end the apartheid state, end the killing of innocent people, end the settlement expansions, go back to either the 1967 or 1948 borders.

@85

I’ve seen the video you’re describing, and many others. Those making excuses for these cold-blooded MURDERS clearly have not... in many cases I don’t see how it possibly could have been accidental.

But please, if you’re going to offer sympathy to Palestinians, refrain from using phrases like “IDF Jew”. It just makes your actual motive that much more obvious. I abhor many of the things Israel has done, but I have nothing against Israelis or Jews. I am pro-Palestinian, not anti-Jew.

Posted June 10th by pacman
pacman
 

“What is Israel supposed to do?

Remove Nutty Yahoo!

Posted June 10th by Psygnosis
Psygnosis

I abhor many of the things Israel has done, but I have nothing against Israelis or Jews. I am pro-Palestinian, not anti-Jew.

I abhor the fact that the Jewish Talmud says "non Jews are meant to be slaves to Jews"

Is that abhorrent to you? You always want to call out "white supremacy". Doesnt the phrase "the chosen ones", which Jews refer to themselves as, have an air of superiority about it?

Edited Monday by #85
#85

I am against the often unmentioned fundamentalist/supremacist Jewish ideology that sometimes drives Israeli policy (especially with Netanyahu in there), just like I am against Islamic and Chrisian fundamentalism. I don’t hate individual Jews as people, nor do I assume all Jews adhere to this ideology.

Posted Monday by pacman
pacman
 
Reply to: Heroic Young Palestinian Medic Murdered By IDF Terrorist

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