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I want to start from a blank slate, make zero assumptions about each other, and figure out where you are on the political spectrum and see if we can agree about anything.

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Why isn't this in politics? There is a lot I could say though, but without a question on an issue I don't know if I will end up saying it. As I'm sure you're aware I've taken a swing much more towards the left in recent years though I'm not the furthest left the site offers (and I don't use left in american terms or related to the democratic party or anything because I consider them almost entirely if not entirely center-left at most and people like Bernie Sanders a moderate)

How about some questions? I could just try to bring up whatever I can think of but it probably wouldn't go as smoothly.

Edited October 9th by Grey Echelon
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Because honestly, I find you pretty annoying to debate with when you just pop into random topics. So I'd rather just figure out if we agree on anything. If we don't then there won't be any point in debating in other threads. I'd rather just have this one thread to shoot the shit because the two of us are very fast posters and we hijack threads when we debate in them.

Edited October 9th by I killed Mufasa
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As for questions, my first one would be, why do you think Bernie is moderate?

Posted October 9th by I killed Mufasa
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Because honestly, I find you pretty annoying to debate with when you just pop into random topics. So I'd rather just figure out if we agree on anything. If we don't then there won't be any point in debating in other threads

I think I said this before, but when you post something publicly you have to be ready for people to criticize it which... is what I often do when you're annoyed. I may also do a bit more than that too, but I won't stop saying something just because we disagree and really what is the point of a debate when you agree on the topic? Then it kind of just becomes a discussion not a debate. People definitely have annoyed me a bit here but I don't insist that I don't want to hear from them forever.

As for questions, my first one would be, why do you think Bernie is moderate?


Bernie may secretly be an actual socialist/democratic socialist trying to normalize the definition of socialism in america but for the most part his proposals in modern times match what social democratic coutntries in europe are doing at most (which he himself has stated as ideal). And because "democratic socialists" also sometimes lean into social democracy outside of the america, some democratic socialists are considered center-left even there. As for why I think social democracy is center-left, well there's the wiki saying it along with sources along with a general definition of what the center-left is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre-left_politics
If you were to ask me myself though instead of what seems to be somewhat common knowledge, I'd simply say just because he doesn't intend to dismantle capitalism in effect with his modern proposals but simply improve it and put a bandaid over it. So to me unless he's hiding something Bernie represents the moderate left in america. It's just that america has been right leaning for a while now that it seems like such a bold step disregarding him referring to himself as a democratic socialist.

I consider myself a left-wing socialist.

Edited October 9th by Grey Echelon
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I want to be clear, I find you annoying, not necessarily your talking points but the way you conduct yourself. And I don't want to find you annoying.

No that's fine. I'd just rather move it here if you have a problem with something I've written. Just because you're quirky and you post super fast and sometimes I'm not even clear on exactly what you have a problem with. I don't want to shut you down, I just want to know where you stand. I'm basically trying to give you a chance right now. So if you'd humor me on that it would be great.

Interesting. I don't know much about Bernie. But I've kinda accepted he'll never be given a proper chance and he's likely too old. You might be aware but my country has some social democratic properties and they work out pretty well. I've put off paying my student loans for 7 years and haven't paid a cent and we have health care that has literally kept my sister alive. She has cystic fibrosis. I also voted for the center left party, the Liberals. So maybe we do have some commonality. But it rarely seems that way when we talk.

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Do you think America should have a third major party? And if so, would it be good if it was more of a compromise/middle party? A party that would likely get elected if the left and right are both doing bad things (like they are right now in my opinion).



Edited October 9th by I killed Mufasa
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I want to be clear, I find you annoying, not necessarily your talking points but the way you conduct yourself. And I don't want to find you annoying.

No that's fine. I'd just rather move it here if you have a problem with something I've written. Just because you're quirky and you post super fast and sometimes I'm not even clear on exactly what you have a problem with. I don't want to shut you down, I just want to know where you stand. I'm basically trying to give you a chance right now. So if you'd humor me on that it would be great.

Alright.

Interesting. I don't know much about Bernie. But I've kinda accepted he'll never be given a proper chance and he's likely too old. You might be aware but my country has some social democratic properties and they work out pretty well. I've put off paying my student loans for 7 years and haven't paid a cent and we have health care that has literally kept my sister alive. She has cystic fibrosis. I also voted for the center left party, the Liberals. So maybe we do have some commonality. But it rarely seems that way when we talk.

Ya exactly and having that would be like the compromise for me. I may desire more and better conditions for the workers and other things but I'd take what I can get you know? But in america not everyone is even assured healthcare and not all jobs even offer healthcare coverage. If we could even get that far it'd be great to me.

Sorry about your sister though.

Do you think America should have a third major party?

Absolutely if not 4. The libertarian party isn't exclusively right-libertarians but it is mostly right-libertarians and for now left-libertarians don't really dominate it and it appeals primarily to the right. Considering the libertarian party is the biggest third party and I don't see that stopping any time soon, it seems rather clear that the left aren't the only ones looking for alternatives and seeing no hope for their designated party. And I have little to no hope for the democratic party personally, but I suppose the slight increase in what I'd consider the center-left has given me some hope not much though because getting representatives for your ideology voted in from all or most states is no easy feat and it will take quite a bit of years if it happens. And even then I still wouldn't necessarily feel represented, but I would totally support it with no other options since I'd consider it much better than the alternative.

Posted October 9th by Grey Echelon
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"But in America not everyone is even assured healthcare"

That's probably why we differ. Because I already live in basically a social democracy so going even further left seems ridiculous to me because my taxes are already super high. If I buy a 100 dollar item I pay 15 dollars in tax. I remember in Florida it was like 7 dollars off 100. More than double for me.

You're looking at it from the perspective of someone who lives in a capitalist shit show where people literally die because they can't afford healthcare. And also a country that hasn't taken proper covid precautions. Canada is doing astronomically better at containing Covid than America is. Last I checked there were two active cases in my province and we went like a month with 0.

We need to understand those differences when we discuss things. Because while Canada might be culturally similar to America, they way we handle the important stuff like healthcare, taxes, and guns are very different. My interpretation of liberal, conservative, left, and right are different from yours in most cases. Our conservative party is probably centrist compared to the Republicans and certainly the Republicans under Trump.

Even with healthcare not everyone gets saved. My brother obviously didn't get sufficient mental health attention.

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It makes me happy to see that you're fed up with the democratic party. It's easy to jump on the Orange man bad train blindly. I mean, he is bad. He's awful. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't have standards for the opposing party, right? The democrats are fucked right now. If it were anyone but Trump at the helm I'd say that the democrats are by far the worse party. But trump is an incompetent buffoon going up against someone with dementia who is going to serve as a puppet for some powerful underground types in the democratic elite.

It's totally fucked and America hasn't been this bad off since probably the civil war. Even in the depression and WW2 and WW1 it was unified.












Edited October 9th by I killed Mufasa
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That's probably why we differ. Because I already live in basically a social democracy so going even further left seems ridiculous to me because my taxes are already super high. If I buy a 100 dollar item I pay 15 dollars in tax. I remember in Florida it was like 7 dollars off 100. More than double for me.

Well I do wonder if the conditions of america are what pushed me further left past social democracy but ya that's part of it. But I also think actual socialism can in time eliminate or lessen issues like that anyway (at least in a well off country like america just a lot of the people themselves aren't currently that well off. I think america would be an excellent country for a democratic form of actual socialism to take place.) and at the same time create more livable conditions for the workers in the workplace because there is some real bullshit imo sometimes that people shouldn't have to put up with just to keep their job and survive. Whereas while social democracy is an acceptable balance, it can also sometimes get to the point where the system regresses and disregards social democratic policies, it kind of happened here with the new deal too. Not sure if you heard of that. So basically I'm saying social democracy can sometimes end up being a dead end so people decide to go backwards. Not always though of course which is why I'm fine with social democracy. So ya I agree that social democracy is good too.

We need to understand those differences when we discuss things. Because while Canada might be culturally similar to America, they way we handle the important stuff like healthcare, taxes, and guns are very differently. My interpretation of liberal, conservative, left, and right are different from yours in most cases.

I mean sure and I can try to keep that in mind but also keep in mind my positions still go beyond social democracy and that's the compromise for me.

Our conservative party is probably centrist compared to the Republicans and certainly the Republicans under Trump.

Ya seems like it.

It makes me happy to see that you're fed up with the democratic party. it's easy to jump on the Orange man bad train blindly. I mean, he is bad. he's awful. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't have standards for the opposing party, right? The democrats are fucked right now. If it were anyone but Trump at the helm I'd say that the democrats are by far the worse party. But trump is an incompetent buffoon going up against someone with dementia who is going to serve as a puppet for some powerful underground types in the democratic elite.

To me it seems kind of like the republicans are usually the worst party but the democrats aren't far behind and often directly or indirectly enable the republicans anyway. I honestly don't even view them as an effective opposition party because they fail spectacularly so often and there were times I thought the democratic party would rather see Trump in office than have to deal with what would happen if Bernie won the the democratic primary. And I still kind of think that, because ultimately it's not huge skin off a lot of their noses but dealing with the possibility of actual change within their own party, that is. They have something to lose there because Bernie goes against a lot of their interests, which is why some have tried to pay lip service to the Bernie crowd but nothing more.

And it's like if you look at Biden's history you will see a lot of the same bullshit. Racism, sexism, allegations, right-wing leanings in some regards, stances on immigration not that far from Trump, really I could go on for a while and I wanted to dig everything up again but the point is I actually consider Biden himself center-right to right-wing because even up till this election Biden only came around on the most bare bones things even for democrats (and to be clear that isn't intended like apply racism and sexism only to the right just mentioning it as a similarity) unless he's been genuinely changing and not just paying lip service which I doubt.

So yes I can agree that both parties are terrible.

It's totally fucked and America hasn't been this bad off since probably the civil war. Even in the depression and WW2 and WW1 it was unified.

I don't think it's the majority of people but it seems to me like the stagnancy has resulted in a lot of people on the left and the right are going further hence why I said earlier I'm not even sure it's just like 1% in a previous thread of yours. And like I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing depending on how it goes of course but I'm of course biased against the right in this regard myself. Any day of the week I'd take a communist who isn't an authoritarian piece of shit and who doesn't resemble a reactionary (which do exist) over a fascist or a nazi easy no question. But that's me.

But ya, anyway conditions of a lot of things are making more desperate and anxious I think and it doesn't seem like we've made much real progress. Hell, the cops even the democrats in some states just refuse to do even the most basic of police reforms (and I'm not even talking about like cutting funding or whatever) since the protests started and these are supposed to be the ones on "our side"? Until this stagnancy stops, and everything gets sorted out things will probably get worse before they get better and even then there will still be a lot of lingering hostility for a while.

Edited October 9th by Grey Echelon
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Anyway I hope that last post didn't put you off, but I feel like I should also at least partially give an idea about why I agree with you on these things not just say I do. It does come from a rather different place probably, but at the end of the day we can agree things like universal healthcare is good and the dems are bad it seems.

Edited October 9th by Grey Echelon
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It didn't put me off it was just really long. XD

Posted October 9th by I killed Mufasa
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