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We're gonna need a bigger boat.



Also:



I think some of the complaints in this thread are unfair, and that the episode was actually amazing, well-foreshadowed for quite some time, and Daenarys had enough to set her off over the past couple episodes for it to be a great time to do this. You're never going to encounter a piece of fiction or media where literally everything happens the way you want it to.

I am a casual fan, and so is my grandfather, I admit to that. I know nothing about the books. I have the first one coming in the mail. But we both enjoyed this whole season thoroughly.

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I'm still in shock at how far this show has fallen. I can't wait until it's finally over.

Posted May 12th by The Bandit



Posted May 12th by Vandy

Wow!



Edited May 13th by Count Dooku

God. I know I haven't even followed the show since season 4, but... what even is the writing on this season?

Look, I can't compare it to other seasons that I've heard decline and are, at best, uneven, but I've watched this season and even not really following the show, everything just feels super rushed, but also really poorly laid out and structured.




One more to go, and then we can figure out where this season belongs in the hierarchy of disappointing series finales.

Posted May 13th by Jet Presto

Holy fuck. I think I need to gather my thoughts still on a lot of it, but overall this episode was way way better than episode 3.

So uh, a couple spoiler thoughts:



I'll probably have other thoughts after I sleep and I might want to do a rewatch too.

Edited May 13th by Xhin
Xhin
Nature is beautiful

@Xhin



Edited May 13th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king



In a vacuum, I could see it as an acceptable, almost thrilling episode. It's certainly not the worst of the season in my eyes. But as part of a larger picture, it betrays so much character progression and is completely inconsistent to the show's history, and what happened literally the episode before it.

Not that I necessarily believe bumping these last two seasons up to a full 10 episodes would have improved the overall outcome, but they've definitely been rushed and disjointed as a result. To think, within the span of 3 episodes, we've gone through 3 super villains - Night King, Cersei, and now Dany. Perhaps this all would've been a little easier to digest if it the story had been allowed to breath, and these character motivations explored a little more. Maybe I could have found some peace with it. I'll never know. Instead I have to live with the sheer disappointment that the showrunners of my favourite TV series threw in the towel when it mattered most, and when the whole world was watching.

Edited May 13th by Orion Nebula



Edited May 13th by poptart!



Posted May 13th by The Bandit

In the world of fire and ice there are no good or bad guys.

Posted May 13th by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 

Not a whole lot for me to say on this that hasn't been said already, and I'm not nearly as interested as I used to be in in-depth discussions on a show that's demonstrated it's no longer interested in depth. I thought last season was bad, the worst of the show, but this one's topping it by leaps and bounds. Orion summed up my thoughts on Dany and Jaime really well.



Next week's finale is going to feel more like a mercy killing for the show than anything else. Certainly not the triumphant ending they were hoping for.

Edited May 13th by white lancer

As a more casual fan of the series, the people who take it so seriously come across as real debbie downers and super toxic. Can we at least admire the fantastic visuals and soundtrack and general sound editing? It was a beautiful episode.

Posted May 13th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Next week's finale is going to feel more like a mercy killing for the show than anything else. Certainly not the triumphant ending they were hoping for.


I am expecting them to reveal that this entire season has been a vision of some sort. Like the twilight fake out.

Posted May 13th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 



Edited May 13th by Moonray
Moonray
 

Oh also



Posted May 13th by Moonray
Moonray
 

Dooku:



@Jet:



@Mufasa:



@Nebula:



Instead I have to live with the sheer disappointment that the showrunners of my favourite TV series threw in the towel when it mattered most, and when the whole world was watching.


Well, they said as much before season 8 -- stating that they were basically "done with the show" and just want to get it over with now so they can move onto other stuff.

It's gotta suck when you're suddenly handed the reins of a story so hard to write that the winds of winter still isn't done.

@lancer:






Posted May 13th by Xhin
Xhin
Nature is beautiful

@Moonray: NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE NIFE. Also:




Posted May 13th by Xhin
Xhin
Nature is beautiful

@Xhin:



Posted May 13th by Moonray
Moonray
 

Just putting some additional thoughts in spoilers, just to be safe.




Really, I mostly keep thinking about how weird it was that they *added* a tiny bit of clarity to last week's episode in this week's "Previously On." Like, seriously, what the fuck was that?




As a more casual fan of the series, the people who take it so seriously come across as real debbie downers and super toxic.


Except that the show wants you to take it seriously. So much of the criticism is centered on the fact that the show wants to be taken seriously, and then rather abruptly changes to a show where you have to back off with the thinking, because it abandons the depth that was literally a staple of the show.

The approach changed as well. I read a good post (will try to find it) about how George RR Martin tells a story by defining the characters moreso than finding the end point. Part of why the books take so long is that this approach can get a writer stuck in the plot. (And by his own admission, that was sort of what happened with Dany in Meereen. He sort of wrote himself into a corner and couldn't find an easier way to get her out of it, because he's more of a character-driven writer. (Essentially, it's the approach that you define your characters super well and that takes precedence, and then you figure out how they would react to a situation.) But with the show, D&D are more end-point storytellers. This definitely comes across in this season, and to be slightly fair, they have to be by necessity given they were always going to run out of source material and couldn't just keep producing one of the most expensive television programs indefinitely. And so, we are left with a lack of the characterization that the Martin-influenced part of the show produced, and are left with characters rushing to be where they need to be for the series wrap. It's not even that the D&D approach is *bad.* Many great stories have been told that way. Where the character-focused stuff can get writers stuck, the end-point approach can cause contrivances, of which we've seen many in GoT. The problem in this case is that the approach completely shifts. If you got into GoT because you liked the Martin approach to storytelling, then it feels super weird to get to the point where it totally changes to the D&D approach.

And being critical of a show isn't itself "toxic." There are plenty of people who watch it specifically to shit on it because they think it got worse but other people still like it, and indeed that is a toxic approach. (I know plenty of those people, personally.) But a lot of the criticism out there is not coming from "debbie downers" or anyone who is toxic. It's largely fans who have been invested in the story for so long because the story demanded that kind of investment, and finding that all of these threads are lacking the promised payoffs.




Posted May 13th by Jet Presto

@Xhin




Edited May 13th by Jet Presto

@Xhin



Posted May 13th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king



The reaction to this episode, particularly compared to the reaction to Episode 3, has been interesting. Episode 3 certainly received a lot of criticism, but it seemed far more polarizing--I saw several people claim it was the greatest episode of TV ever. Which, "Ozymandias" would like a word. Or "The Body," or "Whitecaps," or "Middle Ground" (a half-dozen episodes of The Wire are probably contenders--man, I need to rewatch that show). But I've seen only a scant few defenders of this episode. As far as I can tell, the reception for this one was overwhelmingly negative.

Posted May 13th by white lancer

Great. Now I need to rewatch the Wire also.

Posted May 13th by Jet Presto

You're welcome?

Posted May 13th by white lancer

@white lancer:



Jon Snow being reduced to a yes-man for Dany has been infuriating to watch as well, and it's been on my mind a lot. He's had nothing to contribute this season, other than "She's my queen" and "I don't want it". The embodiment of ice and fire, sidelined in both battles, having little to no agency apart from spreading his secret. I'm sure he'll be the one to kill Dany, or have a hand in it, but it's felt as though they've effectively pulled the handbrake on his arc until then. And what's there to even say about Tyrion anymore? Dumbed down in nearly every regard, suddenly concerned for fucking Cersei's wellbeing and dependant on her being true to her word and showing compassion.

I thought I was already in the acceptance stage after last week, but man, I'm really struggling to come to terms with all of this. I've been following GoT since Season 1 first aired, week by week. I ran out and grabbed the books as soon as that season wrapped up, rereading them many times over the years. God knows how many rewatches I've done for Seasons 1-4. I even powered through that massive World of Ice and Fire history compendium back to front, as well. I don't think I've ever been so involved and enthusiastic for a series as I have been with this one. The only thing that comes close is Mass Effect, but even the controversial ending to ME3 never hit as hard as this. At least the Extended Cut, Leviathan and Citadel DLC helped round out and give further context to the ending, along with proper farewells for the characters. Season 8 is set in stone, these actors never to portray their characters again, and give them the proper sendoff they deserve. It's like I'm watching someone try to complete a nearly finished jigsaw puzzle, but instead of fitting the last pieces neatly together, they're just thrown in its general direction.

Btw, Gendry as king (hell, even Lord of Storm's End) is so fucking nonsensical and undeserved that it'll probably happen.

Edited May 14th by Orion Nebula

on Gendry




also I saw this somewhere and it gave me a good laugh:
https://www.change.org/p/reddit-hire-hannah-waddingham-to-walk-behind-d-d-game-of-thrones-producers?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app

Posted May 14th by Pirate_Ninja

Well, for all the problems with Mass Effect's ending, and even the flaws of ME3 intrinsic to the basic structure and design of the game, they didn't really destroy the characters we had come to like. There are a lot of problems with ME3 (and I say that as someone who actually did really enjoy the game overall), but they still seemed to give the characters good moments that were well within their character. To me, that was one of the most important things that saved the game, because the rest sort of either kills plot or design, and I never really got into ME for either of those things (plot to some extent, but it was the characters and world-building that got me deeply invested). Even without DLC to somewhat course-correct, it was still less horrendous of character assassination.

Although I suppose the problems were sort of the same: something that felt more character driven turned into something more plot driven, with creators having to reverse-engineer the story to get everyone to where they need to be for the ending. Martin is going to have this issue with the books, too, and I suspect that's the biggest reason the last ones aren't out yet. But he is certainly going to handle it better.






(Also, I feel like it's probably gonna be Bran. He's the one that has a legitimate claim to a throne that also makes no real sense, so it's gonna be Bran.)


Edited May 14th by Jet Presto

Yeah...I mean, I doubt Martin's going to be able to handle this perfectly, either. It's not like the books to this point have been without their flaws. I just don't expect it to be as flagrant as this season has been. I saw that video Jet posted the other day and it's pretty comical how hard some of the cast is trying not to trash the show--it's possible to read Kit's response as a supremely dry joke, I suppose, but Emilia's reaction (which I'd seen before the season started) was pretty telling. And, of course, Peter going on about how intelligent the whole crypts strategy was.

FWIW, Bran was the bettors' favorite to finish the series as the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms before the season even started. Which is such a out-of-left-field choice that it has to make you wonder if inside information is involved. It'd be a pretty ridiculous swerve--as boring and predictable as I'd find a Jon Snow victory, at least it'd make sense--but the way this season has gone I wouldn't put it past the show to "subvert our expectations" in that way.

Personally, I managed to divest myself of any real expectation after Episode 3, so I've just been kinda along for the ride ever since. I'm with Cersei on this season:



Posted May 14th by white lancer

Maybe they'll melt the throne down and reforge it into coins. That would be a good metaphor for the show.

Posted May 14th by Xhin
Xhin
Nature is beautiful

Maybe they'll melt the throne down and reforge it into coins. That would be a good metaphor for the show.


That would also be a really interesting mechanic for the prevention of inflation. Though there's probably not enough iron in the throne to serve as a currency for a significant amount of people. Maybe a sandwich coin with gold, or a gold coin with a setting for a drop of iron?

Posted May 14th by Cruinn-Annuin

my prediction: westeros becomes ruled by a leftist government under bran and then the united states invades to stop communism

Posted May 14th by poptart!

that would make as much sense as any other ending

Posted May 14th by Xhin
Xhin
Nature is beautiful

my actual prediction:



prediction 2:



prediction 3:



the third possibility seems the most likely

Posted May 14th by Xhin
Xhin
Nature is beautiful

i'm taking bets on who kills



Posted May 14th by poptart!

I was just thinking about it and I realized that the biggest reason last week's episode killed Razor...Rhaegol? Rigor? Whatever the other dragon's name is, not to "even the odds," but to give a reason why Jon wouldn't also be riding a dragon. One would imagine if he were, he would have approached Dany to stop her.

Posted May 14th by Jet Presto

That would have been way more epic than what they decided to do. Unfortunately Drogon would have kicked the other dragon's ass and we would have seen how fire resistant Aegon Targaryen really is.

Posted May 14th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Rhaegal




Posted May 14th by Vandy

I really want Dany to try to torch Tyrion and for him to be completely immune to the flames, and then command the dragon.

Posted May 14th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

@Vandy/Jet



Posted May 14th by Count Dooku
Edited May 14th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

@IKM:



Posted May 14th by Xhin
Xhin
Nature is beautiful

The problem is that there's clearly icicles around ~0:22

Posted May 15th by Count Dooku

I mean, I don't think D&D even knew what the foreshadowing meant then either. I'm sure it was left ambiguous just as much for their own flexibility down the road, so they could point back and say "hey, we totally foreshadowed the burning of KL/White Walkers reaching KL/Jon Snow on the throne!".

Posted May 15th by Orion Nebula

Gah. I'm pretty bad at GoT names. Sorry. But yeah, I totally agree with the ideas about what should have happened. Sexy Crazy Pirate Captain Long Belt should have lost most of his fleet, but been able to take out Rha's al-Ghoul, to set Dany off.

I keep hearing about foreshadowing. But it doesn't really mean anything. Foreshadowing can be a neat tool for storytellers, but it doesn't mean anything if the development of events and character arcs are rushed, forced, and contrived. Just because "there was foreshadowing" doesn't mean the story thread is good. It's just a thing concrete structural element of a story.

Posted May 15th by Jet Presto

I really want Dany to try to torch Tyrion and for him to be completely immune to the flames, and then command the dragon.

I have no idea where this misconception came from, but it triggers the fuck out of me. Targaryen's are not immune to fire, only Daenerys is- and in the books, she's not even actually immune, it's just a one time thing.

We see Jon get burned by fire in season one/book one (and in the books it's a sort of big deal, he never shuts the fuck up about how bad it hurt his hand), and Viserys is basically killed by fire. Remember Dany's line right after? "He was no dragon. Fire cannot harm a dragon." or whatever. Nevermind all of the Targaryens in the lore who were also killed by fire. If all Targaryen's were immune to fire, Jorah would not have been surprised when Dany lived.

The Tyrion is a Targaryen theory is also a theory I really don't like, but I'm pretty sure most people dislike it for the obvious reasons.

As far as the foreshadowing thing- she goes from the throne room straight into the gate leading beyond the Wall, and the snow looks exactly the same there as it does in the throne room. It's meant to be snow.

Posted May 15th by The Bandit

Just because "there was foreshadowing" doesn't mean the story thread is good.


Well yes, that's essentially what everyone has been up in arms about...

Posted May 15th by Orion Nebula

I honestly just wish I never started talking to people online about GOT because they're all so negative. I'm gonna skip the next thread like this. It's not just GOT though, the RWBY community and other fandoms are pretty toxic too. If it weren't for the fan art I would get off those pages fast. You know what actually sucks? Real life. GOT and RWBY are an escape from that and I'm happy to suspend disbelief for a few hours to away from it. Going to see detective pikachu today.

Edited May 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

In this case, "toxic" means "not fawning over a show I like," I guess. Most of the discussion in this thread has been thoughtful and measured. No one's being negative just for the sake of negativity, we're being negative because we legitimately didn't like the choices made. If we're not allowed to talk about the things we dislike about a show for fear of being labeled as "toxic," what's the point of having a discussion at all?

The vision as foreshadowing could still work out, if you see the snow as being less literal (i.e. it represents Jon Snow). As far as that one goes, it doesn't bother me at all and I think it could have been legitimate foreshadowing--they didn't have to know all the details in order to know the broad strokes of the ending back then. Visions have to be ambiguous in order not to give everything away, and it's pretty easy to envision that they actually had the ending in mind when they wrote that scene (including Dany getting close to but never actually touching the throne at the end--we'll see if that pays off). This one's much more likely to have been used as actual foreshadowing than the Melisandre prophecy to Arya, which was probably just a reference to the faces she would use and had nothing to do with the Night King.

Posted May 15th by white lancer

As far as that one goes, it doesn't bother me at all and I think it could have been legitimate foreshadowing--they didn't have to know all the details in order to know the broad strokes of the ending back then.

Yeah, I'm not bothered at all by the fact that the vision turned out to not be literal. I certainly assumed it was foreshadowing a White Walker invasion of King's Landing when I first saw it, but it's not really a problem. It's just a vision. It's like 2% annoying to me that people are trying to reframe it as ash, but whatever. Literally the least important problem with the show right now.

Posted May 15th by The Bandit

Nah. I don't care if people fawn or not, I'm just tired of the nit picking over every detail every episode. Just because you don't get what you want. This happens in every fandom I'm a part of and I just want to enjoy my distractions without either hearing about nitpicking, or some stupid representation SJW bullshit becoming a thing. Not every group needs to be represented in every piece of media. Game of Thrones is a show about: fictional and real white medieval culture written by a white writer, and nobody gives Black Panther shit for being mostly about: fictional and real black culture.

For fucks sake, video games, shows, and movies are fiction and are there to be enjoyed. Injecting real life expectations like rape culture and affirmative action is just silly. It ruins the immersion for one, and it's worst offense is dragging people like me, who just want to be distracted and enjoy the fictional world, back into real life which I hate.

For instance, Sansa doesn't live in our real world with our rules, she lives in a world where even the best people (Jon Snow) are mass killers; and rapists and thieves run wild. I think that being raped and tricked all her life absolutely can toughen her and and make her more mature in such a world and that real life has no bearing on her lines that assert it. It doesn't matter what real rape victims think of Sansa's experience because they don't live in Westeros. They live in an entirely different culture.

People (including the actress) are complaining about Missandrei getting her head chopped off because she's a "POC", which is literally a term created to build division between white people and every other kind of person. Bitch, you made it until the third-to-last episode, it's not like you got killed back in season 3 or something. Plus you got one of the coolest lines in the series as last words.

Real life SJW issues have no business seeping into entertainment because real life SJW issues aren't entertaining.



Edited May 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

It's not "nitpicking" to discuss all the ways the show and its writing have fundamentally changed and the feel of the show has altered discernibly. The reason people are criticizing the show is that they have almost completely gotten away from the elements that made it so good and immersing in the first place. A show that felt like it was taking its time to fully establish characters has turned into a show that feels like it is rushing beyond all reason to get to the plot's endpoint. It's not "nitpicking." It's legitimate criticism. No one is saying the show as a whole sucks or doesn't deserve to exist or have existed.

As for your random ranting about "SJWs ruining everything," that's not even what's going on here. And since you've latched onto my one point about Sansa (in the middle of countless other criticisms that were not about her from the previous thread), well, I said it in the other post and I'll say it again: just because you can explain an element of a story within the *fiction* doesn't mean the criticism is invalid. I'm not interested in rehashing this particular point, but it's not my fault that you don't understand art criticism.

Posted May 15th by Jet Presto

I'm not interested in rehashing this particular point, but it's not my fault that you don't understand art criticism.

Oh so you won't talk but you'll be pretentious anyway. Good for you. Do you always just parrot whatever the popular SJW line of the day is and then go silent when questioned on it? I noticed you also did that when Null questioned you about Barrett. Use your own brain and stop giving into groupthink Jet.

It's not just you talking about Sansa. And this isn't the only site I deal with Games of Thrones nitpickers on.

Edited May 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

I don't think anyone here has really been nitpicking.

A work of fiction, by its very nature, doesn't have to be real. But they tend to establish their own rules, their own standards, their own customs, traits, etc. This is what makes it an enjoyable thing to read/watch/play.

When something in the fiction works in a way that it has established it shouldn't then it starts to pull people out of it. It's no longer believable within its own world and that ruins the escapism (and that's all any fiction really is at their most basic. Something to distract you from everything else).

An extremely good example of GoT playing by its own rules is the Red Wedding. By that point the show has established that major characters can be killed off, it's established that betrayal and power seeking are a big part of this world, the characters who do the betraying are setup in a way that you can believe they would do this. Everything within the world says this is totally something that would happen.

A not so extreme comparison from the other side would be Danaerys single handedly defeating King's Landing. Everything that has lead to that point has shown us how vulnerable the dragons can be. Just the episode before we were shown that the scorpions can do some serious harm to a dragon even if they miss a vital organ. We've been shown beforehand that arrows and other things do hurt dragons. Yet the show expects you to believe Danaerys last dragon can just defeat the entirety of the city's defensive wall without taking a bit? Its not "realistic" within the established rules, things like that completely pull me out of it and make me go "How is this a thing?"

I don't mind not having a huge battle (in fact I think GoT is at its best when it's not trying to be LOTR), but for it to be completely one sided the way it was just did not work for where the story was at.

I actually enjoyed the episode as a "flashy action packed extravaganza" but that's not what I watch GoT for. You just have to compare the latter seasons battles to early seasons to understand what's wrong with the show. The early stuff actually had thought put into the sieges, like the assault on King's Landing by Stannis. There was a lot of strategic thought put into how each side would handle it... But also the focus wasn't on the action. Yea it was there and yea it took up a decent amount of screen time but there was a lot of focus on the characters and how they dealt with it (I actually think there were decent moments of this in The Long Night).

I can understand why it's be annoying to you to see a lot of negativity when you're obviously really enjoying the show, but I don't think it's fair to just write off people's criticisms as nitpicking.

Posted May 15th by Moonray
Moonray
 

It's not just GOT though, the RWBY community and other fandoms are pretty toxic too


To be fair, all the things you're talking about probably suck. It is entirely possible to have great elements and for people to become very invested in something that starts taking more and more left turns as it goes on, or just have other elements that are irritating and just never get addressed.

Like Homestuck. I love Homestuck. But it fuckin sucks.

Posted May 15th by Cruinn-Annuin

I like naruto.

It fucking sucks at times.

Posted May 15th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

To make it something relevant to a recent conversation I had with Red Leaf: it's like really gay deathcore music from the late 2000s. I love it but it fuckin sux. Also Africa by Toto, the Disturbed cover of The Sound of Silence and Final Countdown by Europe.

Posted May 15th by Cruinn-Annuin

Also Africa by Toto, the Disturbed cover of The Sound of Silence and Final Countdown by Europe.

I agree with toto. But everything else is gold.

Posted May 15th by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

To be fair, all the things you're talking about probably suck.

Not to me. At the very least not as much as real life sucks. I'm not always 100 percent satisfied with things that happen but how could I be? If I want to be 100 percent satisfied then I need to have some agency and make my own damn show. So what are you suggesting then, Null, just never talk about anything I like with anyone online ever again? Also I've never met a disturbed track I didn't like except maybe for down with the sickness. And that's not because of the song itself, just the last part about the way over to top battle he has with his mother. That's the only thing disturbed has ever done that actually disturbed me because I have a great relationship with my mother. Made me cringe.

Edited May 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Not to me


No, but maybe yes to others who are also invested in it, which is why they're criticizing it. Not hard to understand.

I'm not saying don't talk to anyone. I am saying that maybe you're OK with things that other people aren't.

Posted May 15th by Cruinn-Annuin

Oh so you won't talk but you'll be pretentious anyway.


I more often than not do engage,as I did with the Sansa point I made in the other thread (which you promptly tried to [incorrectly] use to make your larger point). I don't always have to engage, and I chose not to in the FFVII thread to try and allow other threads of conversation. No one here owes anyone else a response.

And you're also saying, "You won't talk" because I chose not to re-hash the exact same point I said multiple times in the last GoT thread, so you're making confusing statements, or ones showing you are coming inherently from a place of bad faith.

It's not just you talking about Sansa.


Gee. It's *almost* as if different people take different things from a piece of art or entertainment. It's *almost* as if, given the nature of art and entertainment, there isn't one universal and ubiquitous way to consume or interpret a piece of fiction. It's *almost* as if people have different opinions and feelings than you. It's *almost* as if that element of the fiction is noticeable and present, and impacts people in a different way than it impacted you.


And congratulations, you have - and with our help - made yet another thread about you and your depression-fueled lashing out.

Posted May 15th by Jet Presto

I just think that a creator/director/producer has a right to make their artistic project go however they want and that the voices of others, including fans, are just background noise a lot of the time. Game of Thrones is a marketable product, so fan opinion matters on whether it's a total flop or not or if it's going to sell or not, but not to the degree of taking power out of the hands of those who run the show. This season may not be what you wanted but it's not a flop, it is going to sell, and a lot of love was put into it. Again, make your own show if you want everything to be perfect. It takes very little effort to complain and a lot of effort to make a show like GOT.

Edited May 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

I don't see why you needed 4 passive aggressive paragraphs to say absolutely nothing, Jet.

Edited May 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Where did someone say it was a flop? Or anything even remotely similar?

Edited May 15th by Moonray
Moonray
 

For one thing that was a response to Null, not Jet. Secondly I didn't quote anything when I said it, did I? I'm just presenting my views on fans whining in general. Ultimately, unless the show is a complete clusterfuck failure to the tune of not selling well, fan opinion doesn't matter and will never matter. You have no power over production and yet you chose to come along for the ride.

Edited May 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

I corrected my post to say someone before you replied.

But it's weird that you would bring the idea up if no one was even suggesting it. How is it relevant if no one suggested it was the case?

Posted May 15th by Moonray
Moonray
 

Ultimately, unless the show is a complete clusterfuck failure, fan opinion doesn't matter and will never matter.


If fan opinion doesn't matter then why do you want to talk about it? If nothing you or I or anyone in this post has said matters then why did you make the post?

Posted May 15th by Moonray
Moonray
 

Why did people complain when no one asked/suggested that they do?

Posted May 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

If fan opinion doesn't matter then why do you want to talk about it? If nothing you or I or anyone in this post has said matters then why did you make the post?

It will be the last time.

Posted May 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Why did people complain when no one asked/suggested that they do?


In this post because you invited discussion by making the thread. I don't really get what's confusing about that.

That is literally how discussion about something works.

But that's not really relatable to what you did. You're trying to suggest that people should shut up about their criticisms and then you start talking about how the show isn't a flop, the implication is you think someone here thinks it is. Otherwise it's a totally irrelevant point to the discussion at hand.

Anyway I'll leave you to it now.

Posted May 15th by Moonray
Moonray
 

I don't see Nullfather as being part of the main discussion with his recent comments to me. My comments back to him are indeed a bit of a tangent when compared to the rest of the thread. Why do you have a problem with that?

I'm not telling you, or Jet, or anyone else to shut up. (Infact I'm encouraging Jet to actually talk but he won't.). I'm having a side discussion with Nullfather. About the agency that production should have and how fan opinion is ultimately irrelevant to that process unless it's really really bad.

Edited May 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

I didn't say that fan opinion is necessarily relevant to the production process. Did you ever consider the idea that fans might talk about things amongst themselves, organize their thoughts publicly, produce critical content for other fans? Besides that, did you consider the fact that people-pleasing mass-media like Game of Thrones want to know what the fans don't like about their product? (Not necessarily now that everything is being wrapped up, but in general.)

Posted May 15th by Cruinn-Annuin

Did you ever consider the idea that fans might talk about things amongst themselves, organize their thoughts publicly, produce critical content for other fans?

I'm a fandom writer myself.

Besides that, did you consider the fact that people-pleasing mass-media like Game of Thrones want to know what the fans don't like about their product?

Absolutely they want to have an idea of what will sell well and add to their legacy. But it still has a very minimal impact on production usually. I would argue that often times, the kinds of things that get added due to fan opinion are the cringy SJW things like making sure that LGBT and Blacks are prominently represented whether it makes sense to the story or not. I addressed this when I mentioned Missandrei's actress getting upset that her character is the only female POC in a show and she gets murdered. It's a show that's literally about fantasy European culture. She's not even that black anyway. She's pretty pale and has an afro, so what? She has two white grandparents. People/Fans like that are the loudest. People like Jet and his quiet passive aggressive wall flower opinions have zero impact on what production is going to do.

All minority groups are better represented if their representation was in the creative vision for the original product to begin with. Not just tossed in to be progressive. Look at Legend of Korra. There was no forehadowing or romantic relationship built to assume that Korra and Asami end up together at the end of that. It was thrown in at the last minute for feel good surprise value and it was hit or miss.

An example of a good LGBT inclusion would be Mickey and Ian Gallagher in shameless. Because it's established from the get go that Ian is gay, and it's a big part of his growth as a person, and reluctantly admitting his homosexuality is a big part of Mickey's. It's clear from the get go that they wanted to do that with the characters. Korra on the other hand is seemingly straight for season 1, and doesn't even really get along with Asami because of love triangle bullshit.

JK Rowling retcons her own books on twitter to be more progressive. That shit is cancer. People should be free to have an artistic vision and just act on it without clumsily including groups that make no sense or weren't intended to be the center of attention. It's bad enough that we have to be forced into inclusive situations in real life, but damn, when I just want to be distracted for 2-3 hours I want to leave real life at the door and enjoy some fiction/fantasy.

This is why I write, so I can make my own stories and have them go as I want.



Edited May 15th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

If your complaint is mainly SJW shit, my advice to you is to stop being such a casual and to find more legit media that these people don't even want to touch. Martin has always had a pandering bent to him and it's not surprising at all that the even more popular version of A Song of Ice and Fire has developed something like this, given how the books were written with a creeping gamma-personality snipery.

I've never found SJW criticism of my favorite old-school death metal album, my favorite arena shooter, etc.

They do creep more and more into stuff that's more modern (mainly due to the weird idea that a lot of people have where anything that's sold needs to be a part of that monolithically regulated concept of MASS PRODUCT and thus needs to be as inclusive and appealing as possible), but their inherent weakness and bitchery provides an excellent barrier of entry for more legitimate media - i.e. media that actually participates in the artisanship that you refer to when you ask why criticism is important when someone has a vision.

Keep in mind that criticism is also important simply in terms of craft. There are certain levels of skill and work that go into things. Everything isn't just a product with different design behind it. Some shit sucks, even if the idea is cool.

Posted May 15th by Cruinn-Annuin

tl;dr I do believe that there are things which do not beg criticism due to the fact that they are personal and visionary. That sort of thing is stuff like second-wave black metal, experimental ergodic literature, underground microfiction, etc., not one of the most popular, fashionable and mass-marketed shows on television.

Posted May 15th by Cruinn-Annuin

can't wait to see ikm say he doesn't like something so i can whine endlessly about how unfair he's being

Posted Thursday by The Bandit

Okay Bandit. I don't like your grammar.

Posted Thursday by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Posted Thursday by The Bandit

I honestly just wish I never started talking to people online about GOT because they're all so negative. I'm gonna skip the next thread like this.


I understand what you mean. In Season 7 I would avoid online boards such as r/asoiaf because they were overall negative and I wanted to form my own opinion on the episodes rather than be influenced by their negativity.

Some people are truly toxic and just want to shit on everything no matter what. But that's not really what is happening here. Up until Season 8 I have held onto the hope that the end payoff would be worth it. The suspension and slow build up of the white walker plot was the most interesting for me (the show did the build up well enough to keep me excited along with supplemental information from the books) and I thought that we would get some really great battles and tragedy in the war for the dawn. The way that the show handled the white walker plot truly changed my outlook and took away what was left of my naive optimism. After the night king was whacked in such fashion, I just don't care as much what happens afterward because for me, that was the culmination of the series as a whole.

It's not all bad and I appreciate a lot of what the show has to offer - it does most everything really well except for writing meaningful arcs for characters and getting them there in a way that makes sense for the character. The actors have all performed really well in spite of what they have been given to act out. The set pieces have always been amazing. The music has always been amazing.

Fair criticism should always be welcomed. If something doesn't make sense to the viewer based on context provided by the product itself, we shouldn't be expected to shut off our brains and just accept it. There are good reasons there is so much criticism for this and the most recent seasons opposed to earlier seasons of the show.

Edited Thursday by Vandy

So after a rewatch:



Posted Thursday by Xhin
Xhin
Nature is beautiful



Posted Sunday by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king
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