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Jedi Sith / Star Wars

Star Wars Chat and Roleplaying Forum - Winner of the 2011 and 2012 GT Awards for "Most Nostalgic Forum"
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Discussion thread, I suppose.

Saw it a few hours ago. Just gonna give a brief spoiler-free reaction to it before I head off to bed, and I'll write more later when I get the chance.

Rian Johnson gets to flex his directorial muscles a little here, but it's also not the "experimental" film some were hoping for. In saying that though, it's still probably the most visually striking Star Wars movie yet, with a ton of breathtaking and memorable imagery (there's one scene towards the end that literally took the audience's breath away).

The plot itself started off decent, sagged a lot in the middle, but came roaring back with a grand spectacle in the finale. The 2 and a half hour runtime makes itself known.

There was some weird shit. Like, "did that really just happen" weird.

Quite a bit of forced humour.

It's the Empire Strikes Back of the new trilogy not just in tone, but certain sequences as well.

All the actors were strong, but Adam Driver was the standout. Finn was toned down and a lot less annoying, thankfully; and I was happy we got to see some solid character development for Poe.

I definitely liked it, but man. It's the kind of movie where one minute I'd be rolling my eyes, and the next wanting to fistpump and cheer. No clue where I'd rate it among the other films.

Anyone else seen it yet?

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There are 101 Replies

Americans don't have it yet and I haven't seen it yet so you're probably alone right now! Plan is to watch it on Saturday assuming my mate recovers from his sickness bug.

How do you rate it against The Force Awakens and Rogue One?

Posted December 14th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

It being the Empire Strikes Back of this trilogy is not surprising when you remember exactly how derivative The Force Awakens was of A New Hope. I think every suspected they would follow the same general beats as the original prequels.

I'm admittedly a little torn, because Disney just announced they bought 20th Century Fox, and I think this is awful, awful news and I'm getting sick and tired of Disney trying to own pop culture. I kinda just don't want to support them anymore... (Which, I know, has nothing to do with the quality of Star Wars, but still.) Likely won't be seeing it for a while, if I do.

Posted December 14th, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Yea the news about Fox I'm very mixed on... One the one hand, Marvel can have Fantasic Four back... On the other hand it gives Disney even more under their dominion.

Posted December 14th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

I'm of the mindset that one company owning everything is inherently bad. Sure, those Fantastic Four movies have all been bad, but I think they at least tried something in the most recent one that Marvel never would have. I'm more concerned about the X-Men. Stuff like Logan or Deadpool or New Mutants just won't happen with Disney ownership. Competition is inherently good for creativity. Disney will just try to apply the same formula to these other franchises. For me, at least, that isn't made "ok" by seeing Wolverine in an Avengers movie.

Posted December 14th, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Not reading any of this thread or the replies but can someone hide it from newest replies until people have a chance to go to the actual movie?

Posted December 14th, 2017 by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Everyone should use spoiler tags for spoilers anyway so I don't see why that'd be needed.

Posted December 14th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

Yeah. We're pretty good about using spoilers for actual spoilers of things like this. I'll keep a close eye on it though, so if someone forgets, it doesn't end up in Newest Replies. So far, nothing has been openly said about anything other than the overall quality of the film, which is completely acceptable.

Posted December 14th, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

I hav enev3er read thebook b ut it may be a wort hwhile read. It was wirtten by the same author as the Coruscant Nights and MedStar seires and Darth Maul: Shadow Hutner was alright.

Posted December 14th, 2017 by tnu
tnu

I figured hardly anyone would have seen the movie yet anyway, so I kept it all pretty vague. If I do talk spoilers, they'll be hidden as they always are.

How do you rate it against The Force Awakens and Rogue One?


It's better than Rogue One, but that's also not saying much. In regards to TFA... I really don't know. TFA is better in the sense that it's a much more tightly focused film, better paced, and I felt channeled the old trilogy's spirit pretty well. TLJ on the other hand attempts to break the mold, to varying degrees of success. It's kind of jarring at times. Finn's plot was intrusive, egregious and completely unnecessary if a couple of the characters just talked to each other, and there's a scene with Leia that I still can't even fucking fathom how people involved just signed off on that. The humour felt like a byproduct of Marvel's success, and came across as awkward more often than not.

But then, I also can't stress enough how spectacular the last 40-60 minutes or so is. I appreciated the ballsy approach to some popular theories and questions that were left in the wake of TFA (but I know they won't sit well with many fans). I loved the premise of the entire movie and what everything revolved around. It delved further into the power and allure of the Force than any Star Wars film yet, and introduced something really effective with it. I can't sing the praises of the main cast enough, especially Adam Driver.

TLJ is a very flawed movie, but bloody hell does it have some high points. It just, for me, stumbled too often in the lead up.

Also, I hate porgs. They're the Minions of the Star Wars universe.

Posted December 15th, 2017 by Orion Nebula
Orion Nebula
 

I saw The Last Jedi some hours ago. I thought it was incredible. Rian Johnson can direct the hell out any project he's involved with, and Episode VIII was no exception.

I actually disagree about the humor. It felt less FORCED (no pun intended) and more subdued compared to The Force Awakens. That being said, it still may have had humor that was outside the scope of what Star Wars humor should strive to be (based on the original trilogy).

Anyway, my initial thoughts are: this is a fantastic Star Wars film and superior to TFA and Rogue One in about every way. This is largely due to the fact that this particular film took RISKS. There were a lot of risks taken that subverted my expectations, and I loved it. TFA was safe as could be (which I have long since accepted and believe it was almost necessary, but I still like the movie). The Last Jedi was very unsafe and took me by surprise many times.

There are flaws, of course. I expect stronger dialogue from Rian Johnson's writing, and TLJ just had good--not superb--dialogue. However, I pin this more on it being Star Wars and not an independent film made by a small company. The dialogue was still good.

Rose. Ugh. Was she necessary? Not really a TERRIBLE character. But Rose feels almost thrown in to meet a checklist of inclusive ethnicity characters. I did like that moment with her and Fin on the Crait planet where someone almost took a salt dirt nap, but there wasn't enough there. Maybe the next film will do more with her.

Phasma was still pretty useless. Slightly less so than Episode VII. But still useless. Kind of like...oh, I dunoo...Bobba Fett!

Casino may have needed more creativity put into its design. Just felt like a casino on Earth with aliens. Or a third Cantina...

They still haven't explained how Butthole Eyes (Maz) got Luke's lightsaber to begin with. *shrugs*

Beyond that, I loved most everything else. The music was stronger than Rogue One or The Force Awakens. (John Williams did excellent.) The cinematography was masterful and beautiful to look at. The characters and story were VERY strong. (Props to Poe getting a ton of development.) The writing was on point in just about every scene. But my biggest takeaway is that this is a Star Wars film that not only took risks, but executed said risks with superb, erm, execution.

Oh, and I had been dying to see what they were going to do with my favorite character: Luke Skywalker. I was very impressed and happy they didn't take a generic way out.

Feeling like an excellent combination of The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi with a Rian-Johson-directed twist (instead of a beat for beat retread of A New Hope like The Force Awakens was), Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi is an amazing film that more resembles an artist's take on the franchise RATHER than a competent director who directs by the numbers. (Sorry, J.J. Abrhams. Still enjoyed TFA, though, buddy!) This movie will probably age very well, and could possibly be the best of the sequel trilogy.

Of course, I may be biased. I AM a big fan of Rian Johnson, so there's that. I had high hopes from the director of Brick, Looper, and some episodes of Breaking Bad (not to mention his number one influence as a director is apparently Cowboy Bebop--one of the best shows to subvert expectations) working on a numbered Star Wars film. Forgive me if I'm being a fantard.

....But I mean, is it wrong of me to wish that Johnson was writing and directing Episode IX instead of Abrhams?

Posted December 15th, 2017 by Laxan
Laxan
 

Saw it yesterday as well.

Right off the bat I got the instant vibe of an Empire Strikes Back rehash, which admittedly annoyed me. TFA already echoed A New Hope so hard I was starting to think JJ had no original bone left in his body. Thankfully, as others have said, it took some big risks and went in interesting directions to give Poe and Finn more development, which was both needed and welcome - especially on behalf of Poe, since he randomly disappeared in TFA when he should have ended up alongside Finn most of the film. I thought TFA was the weakest Star Wars title ever, but I would put TLJ at least above Attack of the Clones because of the tension and action were notably better. On the other hand, I think Rogue One had less plot holes. Like Laxan said, it felt like a mix of ESB and ROTJ by the end, which perhaps was actually a good approach, because it felt more packed in somehow, and hopefully that means E9 will not be a rehash of any previous movie.

I have practically no complaints about the dialogue or the humor. It felt "forced" sometimes maybe but I enjoyed it anyhow.

They still haven't explained how Butthole Eyes (Maz) got Luke's lightsaber to begin with. *shrugs*

I am "meh" about the whole situation on how she got the lightsaber. There were a lot of other unanswered questions that bothered me more.

Yes, Phasma is useless. I don't know why (I think a director?) said she was going to be a great character. The only character of this type in the entire saga who had meaningful impact was Jango Fett - not just because he actually gave Obi-Wan a good fight, but also because of the legacy he left behind in Boba and the clone army. Boba and Phasma felt like people in cool looking armor but were ultimately just tossable characters.

Among the actors, Mark Hamill easily stole the screen, taking Luke to new heights, and Adam Driver significantly improved from TFA.

My last note though, how they handled Luke from the story perspective infuriates me. After TFA, I was not happy with the overall direction of things, but at this point, I am holding out for E9 for the new characters, because they did absolutely no justice for the classic characters. They may as well have made this film way after E6 and the story would be pretty decent overall. But for what they did to the original three heroes... I am willing to take Legends back because Disney has done such a crap job.

I know, that's weird - I am saying it is a pretty enjoyable film but on the other hand, they ruined our classic heroes.

....But I mean, is it wrong of me to wish that Johnson was writing and directing Episode IX instead of Abrhams?

No, it isn't. I would pick nearly anyone over JJ to direct another Star Wars film. He is probably going to bring back blinking Ewoks in E9 and have flashbacks of Vader going "Nooooooo" or maybe have Kylo Ren say it.

I am going to open spoiler discussion (naturally with tags) in my next reply.

Edited December 15th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod



Edited December 15th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod

So I hear they didn't cast Jax Pavan very well.

Posted December 15th, 2017 by tnu
tnu



I can't do spoilers....

Edited December 15th, 2017 by Laxan
Laxan
 

Use ["hide"] not [spoiler]



Edited December 15th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod

No, it isn't. I would pick nearly anyone over JJ to direct another Star Wars film.


Nearly anyone, but I definitely wouldn't pick Colin Trevorrow over him. So, in some sense, when you remember that they took Abrams to replace Trevorrow, it *is* an improvement!

Posted December 15th, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

^

I agree! I believe Episode IX will now be a good film instead of a shitty one thanks to Abrhams coming back to write and direct it...just not a great one like The Last Jedi is.

Edited December 15th, 2017 by Laxan
Laxan
 

First off, this is 100% not an Empire rehash. Like the very first line will have you going "oh no," but ultimately it's definitely its own thing.



Edited December 16th, 2017 by The Bandit
The Bandit
 

Well, to be a little fair to Abrams, he was charged with a pretty significant task of renewing Star Wars in a way that appealed to fans of the original trilogy while also separating from the prequel trilogy, and setting the course for the future of the franchise. I don't know that anyone was expecting prequel level bad of any new Star Wars films once George Lucas sold the property, but I think we can easily forget just how anxious people were about a new one with a lot of unknowns. And I think it was Abrams who did a lot to restore faith in the films by pledging to film it on 35mm, to rely more on physical puppets and props while shooting on actual sets and at real locations, and to craft a story that included characters from the original trilogy. While I will not at all disagree with the take that Abrams is overall an inferior filmmaker to Rian Johnson, Johnson at least had the benefit of the anxiety being taken out of the equation, largely because of Abrams' work on the Force Awakens.

Posted December 15th, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Just saw it, really enjoyed it!

My thoughts are kinda scattered about the whole thing, but here goes. Spoiler heavy:



I'd like to go see it again while its still in theaters. See if I pick up on anything new.

Edited December 16th, 2017 by Count Dooku
Count Dooku

Apparently I like the word 'ultimately'.



Posted December 16th, 2017 by Count Dooku
Count Dooku

Abrams owrk is the epitme of mediocre IMo. evne if I didn't have plenty of reason to hate the film already Abrams is jsut another one to add ot the pile.

Posted December 16th, 2017 by tnu
tnu

Hopefully Ill be able to watch it sunday. Not a giant star wars fan like the lot of you. So I have no expectations. Well I do have one. I expect it to be better than the last two movies.

Posted December 16th, 2017 by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

I have seen it now and will make a proper reply tomorrow when I am wt my PC but I do want to respond to something Trevor said regarding the First Order:



Posted December 16th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray



Posted December 16th, 2017 by The Bandit
The Bandit
 

So my thoughts. I'll start by saying I really liked it but damn that middle "side-story" bit was a drag and there are some decisions they made that I think were a big mistake.

I'll probably just be posting more critical opinions because I feel that's the more interesting stuff to talk about, but I must stressed I really liked this movie.



Posted December 17th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

PART 2 BECAUSE INTERNAL SERVER ERROR 500!



Posted December 17th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

Something that has fairly consistently disappointed me... And it wasn't necessarily as bad with this one compared with TFA.. Is that the OST doesn't really seem to have any standouts.

Most of the stuff that stuck in my mind was continuations of themes from the previous film (First Order, Resistance, Rey, etc) or just themes from the OT itself... Like the Tie Fighter Attack track got reused (amongst others).

Posted December 17th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

Going to hide all of this because I don't want to break it up in little chunks and there's major spoilers throughout.



Edited December 17th, 2017 by nullfather
nullfather

I've never been a star wars fan. I've always thought the series was okay as a whole and never understood the fandom. But holy hell did I enjoy this film. Easily the best starwars film of the series and one of my favorite movies of the year.

Posted December 17th, 2017 by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 

@Nullfather:



Posted December 18th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray



Edited December 18th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod




Edited December 18th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod

A snippet of a weird review that is bickering about the "overly" diverse cast and somehow thinks Poe isn't a white male, but otherwise is on point with my thoughts...





Edited December 18th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod





Edited December 18th, 2017 by s.o.h.
s.o.h.
 



Posted December 18th, 2017 by s.o.h.
s.o.h.
 



Posted December 18th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod

ill have to find dookus reply on that but



Posted December 18th, 2017 by s.o.h.
s.o.h.
 



Posted December 18th, 2017 by The Bandit
The Bandit
 



Edited December 18th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod

@Bandit



@SOH



@Trevor


That all said, I did really like this movie and I am looking forward to a 2nd viewing on Thursday. I really think this is a movie that needs to be seen twice if you are a big Star Wars fan. Once to get rid of your "I wonder what's going to happen, will they do this, will they answer that" hype and a second time to actually sit and appreciate the film for what it actually is (because even on a first viewing I can really appreciate the stuff this film did).

Posted December 18th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

Ninja'd by Trevor but glad to see we both got the same impression from that scene in TFA.

Posted December 18th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

Goddamkt moonray now I want to see a sequence where Rey rides a raptor into battle

Posted December 18th, 2017 by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 



That all said, I did really like this movie and I am looking forward to a 2nd viewing on Thursday. I really think this is a movie that needs to be seen twice if you are a big Star Wars fan. Once to get rid of your "I wonder what's going to happen, will they do this, will they answer that" hype and a second time to actually sit and appreciate the film for what it actually is (because even on a first viewing I can really appreciate the stuff this film did).

I also wanted to see it twice to take everything in. As an individual movie, it was pretty good. But the thing is, it is part of a franchise - and for the franchise, it did something awful.

Posted December 18th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod

Goddamkt moonray now I want to see a sequence where Rey rides a raptor into battle

Might have happened if Colin Trevorrow was still directing E9.

Posted December 18th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod

Question


Ninja edit spoiler tag didn't work I'll post when I have access to a pc

Edited December 18th, 2017 by S.o.h.
S.o.h.
 



Edited December 18th, 2017 by The Bandit
The Bandit
 

Gonna post my thoughts as quickly as I can (at work). Apologies if a lot of this is re-tread from other people's comments. I'll read them all when I get home.

So, the TL;DR vague opinion: I liked it just fine, but someone wake me up when they make a *new* Star Wars movie. (I'm a li'l tired of just how derivative these Episodes are of the originals. I enjoyed this and The Force Awakens, but if you're basically going to just make it one big re-hash of lesser quality in terms of character writing, why don't you just re-release the original trilogy every other year?)

Scattershot thoughts, so in no particular order:




I mostly complained about it, but there was stuff I liked quite a bit. Will probably post about those more when I'm back home.

Posted December 18th, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto



Posted December 19th, 2017 by S.O.H.
S.O.H.
 

@Bandit


Something Rodack mentioned earlier, but I wanted to take a closer look at the soundtrack before answering:

Something that has fairly consistently disappointed me... And it wasn't necessarily as bad with this one compared with TFA.. Is that the OST doesn't really seem to have any standouts.

Most of the stuff that stuck in my mind was continuations of themes from the previous film (First Order, Resistance, Rey, etc) or just themes from the OT itself... Like the Tie Fighter Attack track got reused (amongst others). ]

I had to pay the OST more attention to confirm, but the fact I even had to do that says a lot. Williams seems so uninspired in the past few movies.

So, the TL;DR vague opinion: I liked it just fine, but someone wake me up when they make a *new* Star Wars movie. (I'm a li'l tired of just how derivative these Episodes are of the originals. I enjoyed this and The Force Awakens, but if you're basically going to just make it one big re-hash of lesser quality in terms of character writing, why don't you just re-release the original trilogy every other year?)

Yeah, it really bothers when people give TFA and TLJ so much praise when they copy-pasted much of the corresponding original trilogy movies. Apparently people like the originals so much that even having them watered down and spewed out as sequels is enough for them to think it's great.

@Jet (spoiler section)



Edited December 19th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod

I had to pay the OST more attention to confirm, but the fact I even had to do that says a lot. Williams seems so uninspired in the past few movies.


That said there is a beautiful, but far too brief, piano version of Leia's theme from the OT that plays in one scene (the space scene) and again in the credits.

Edited December 19th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

There is one part in "The Spark" where Luke comes out to face Kylo that is pretty cool, but then again, it's just a variation of Luke's theme.

Edited December 19th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod



Posted December 19th, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto



Posted December 19th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod



Posted December 19th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

Don't watch this unless you've seen the movie, but this dude seems to have caught a lot of what we have been discussing. My only problem with him is he's whining about the characters getting something to eat, as if we've never seen characters eat in Star Wars before.





Posted December 19th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod



Posted December 19th, 2017 by The Bandit
The Bandit
 



Posted December 19th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

Heh, kinda hilarious that this thread will be dozens and dozens and dozens of posts, and then when you click it, it's all just spoiler tags.

Anyway: Re: Snoke



Edited December 19th, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Re: Training



Posted December 19th, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Re: Rey



Posted December 19th, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

I'm not bothering with spoiler tags here because this stuff is sort of general Star Wars stuff.

but they are part of a six movie saga - the fact the writers have ignored that is insulting to fans.


They haven't really been ignoring it, though. And also, this has hardly been one single on-going story. Maybe the prequels retroactively turn the original trilogy into a Darth Vader story, but that isn't entirely the case. Arguably, only the final act of Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi have anything really to do with the central story of the prequels. The bulk of the original trilogy stands completely on its own. The prequels are connected because George Lucas chose to make them centered on the antagonist of the originals, and then decided that there's no such thing as chance or luck in Star Wars, so then opted to try and make as many threads connect as possible (even if it doesn't make sense to do that). The current trilogy is clearly trying to tell a new story, although one that incorporates past characters and even some plot points (like the destruction of the Empire).

Being part of a franchise and being part of a single saga are different things. These films aren't ultimately about Luke or Han or Leia or Vader or Chewie or whoever. They appear in it, but it's not their story anymore. It's effectively a different saga that exists. As such, they definitely don't have any obligation to spend any amount of time trying to connect everything to the original trilogy or the prequels. They are all allowed to exist both as part of the same "universe" and as stories independent of each other.


There's no point in continuing a beloved series if you wanted to throw away everything that preceded it.


See, I'll take the opposite approach of, what's the point of continuing a beloved series if anything new or different is considered "throwing away everything that preceded it"? I've probably said this a lot, but since I'm above all else a Godzilla fan first and foremost, continuity and canon has never mattered to me, especially if it comes at the cost of unique or interesting storytelling. I'm sorry so many fans don't seem able to let go of the past and embrace the present or future (which, funny enough, is the central theme of The Last Jedi), and certainly I don't enjoy seeing so many hardcore fans feel so hurt by this. But I also feel like if Star Wars is going to tell new stories and not be beholden to tons and tons of pre-established lore, I'm pretty into it, myself. So. I guess it just depends. This is the seminal question every franchise film has to ask itself: do you appeal to just the hardcore fans, or do you try to make it more accessible to a wider audience and draw in potential new fans, or do you try to strike a balance?


The Force doesn't get to suddenly change how it works after thousands of years because Abrams picked up a pen.


I mean, I really, really hate to be "that guy," but...I mean, yeah, it kinda totally does. It's fiction. The Force has always been used however the writers need it to be used. There are plenty of ways new creators can play with that. (I'm especially keen on the idea that the Jedi weren't as infallible as we make them out to be, and that maybe they don't have a complete understanding of the Force themselves, which I think is both canonically reasonable and creatively liberating.) This is probably just me as a big fan of many things, but not so much so that I *need* anything specific from it, but I'm personally all for giving creators more freedom to operate. I'm not saying go all willy-nilly with it, but if changing something about how the Force works makes for a better film, then I'm all for it.

Posted December 19th, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

@Jet Presto:

Re: Snoke



Posted December 20th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

The Force:




Posted December 20th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

Re: Snoke (I'm really loving just the way this thread looks visually with all the @s, re:s, and then spoiler tags):





Re: The Force



Posted December 20th, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Re: Re: Re: Snoke



Edited December 21st, 2017 by Count Dooku
Count Dooku

So, I saw this movie yesterday. Overall I feel like it's the best Star Wars movie to date, and agree that it will probably age very very well. I'll probably make multiple posts, but for now I'll just give some dislikes and likes:

Dislikes





Posted December 21st, 2017 by Xhin
Xhin
 

I'll watch all 3 eventually when I can (haven't watched any of the new ones yet) and probably make an entire thread for that. I do have high expectations for this one. Just saying.

Posted December 21st, 2017 by KnokkelMillennium
KnokkelMillennium

Likes



Posted December 21st, 2017 by Xhin
Xhin
 

I feel bad for the theaters that evidently got so many complaints from fans about the "sound cutting out" that they had to put up signs explaining there is a scene where the audio drops and that is part of the movie. Didn't feel ambiguous at all about whether that were intentional.

God. Working a Star Wars movie is like my nightmare... and I had some bad Harry Potter experiences when I worked at a mainstream movie theater.

Posted December 21st, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Looks like there was a lot to talk about on this one...I haven't been able to see it yet, but hopefully I'll do so in the next week. But I've seen soooo many mixed reviews (no spoilers though, thankfully)--people seem really split on this one. Either it's the best Star Wars movie of all time, or it's utterly mediocre. At least I don't really have a good idea of what to expect, given that!

Posted December 21st, 2017 by white lancer
white lancer
 

I think so much of what makes The Last Jedi controversial - especially among the more die hard fans - is that this trilogy has definitely been established at this point to serve as a deconstruction of Star Wars lore. The primary theme of both films so far is about balancing the past with the future, that there is value in the past, but we shouldn't let it dictate everything about us and our future.




@ Xhin, in defense of Leia:

The old, wise, grandmotherly role doesn't fit the character she had when we last saw her in Return of the Jedi, but it has been over 30 years... During that time jump, we do know she became a mother, suffered personal losses, and wound up taking a more dominant role in the Republic's leadership. 30 years of motherhood plus being a general probably does change one's character quite a bit. I mean, Obi-Wan shows a lot more patience in A New Hope than he did in any of the prequels. Doesn't make it out of character given he's aged 20 years and had time to reflect on everything.

Not saying you should *like* it. You like what you like, ya don't what ya don't. It's all fair. Just saying that it kind of does make sense that she would become that type of person when you really think about it.

Posted December 21st, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

is that this trilogy has definitely been established at this point to serve as a deconstruction of Star Wars lore.


I didn't really get that impression from TFA. My issues with TFA is that it tries too much to be like what came before it.

If anything I would say-

The Force Awakens - Honouring the past.
The Last Jedi - Letting go of the past in order to move forward.
From Their Nap - Moving forward.

Anyway I have watched it a 2nd time today:



Edited December 21st, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

@Xhin:

Re: Luke




Posted December 21st, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

The thing about the Force Awakens as a film is that it really feels like set up at the same time as trying to be its own film. More so than A New Hope ever tried, at least. So it's hard to really gauge its own stuff sometimes. But I do think it serves as the set up for the deconstruction. For example:



How much of that is intentional, who can say? It's a bit unclear how this universe is being put together. JJ Abrams was director and co-writer of the first film. Rian Johnson was the writer/director of the second. But Johnson's role was announced *after* Force Awakens released, so did they talk to each other? I imagine they did, especially given Abrams was announced to helm the third film. It's possible Abrams was attempting to set something more classic Star Wars up and Johnson knocked it right down, but I suspect that wasn't entirely the case, given some of the themes introduced in TFA, and Maz's spelling it out for Rey.


Re: Finn and Rose plan:



I agree with your take on Rey. I thought all the new characters were noticeably improved in the sequel.

Posted December 21st, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

One thing from the very first post that I somehow didn't comment on:

I'm not sure I agree that this was the most visually stunning Star Wars film. I still think Rogue One ultimately had more impressive visuals, both because of how they made a lot of CGI still resemble models (like Grand Moff Tarken! j/k, although I do mean that in regards to ships and stuff), and I think Gareth Edwards is perhaps the best director when it comes to showcasing scale. And I kiiiinda think that there are some pretty incredible shots in The Force Awakens that, to me, are a bit more memorable than anything in the Last Jedi. But I definitely don't think it's much of a drop off from those previous two, in regards to visuals.



Posted December 21st, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

Ya'll covered most of the important bits. It was - in its defense - a very nice-looking movie. Every dramatic moment (and there were many good ones) seemed designed to produce quotable one-liners, but was ultimately ruined by some out of place comedy. Mood whiplash is a near-constant. Rey was constantly having her thunder stolen. Finn's interrupted sacrifice should have doomed the Resistance, and to be perfectly honest when Kylo asked Rey to join him in burning the galaxy down I was about ready for her to do it. The resistance was embarrassing, Snoke was utterly unintimidating, Benicio del Toro played a fun character who was ultimately a waste of his talents, there was way too much conspicuously cute wildlife, and perhaps worst of all, despite his grey hair Luke doesn't seem like a old guy who's become a hermit and moved to the far end of the galaxy; he seems like a thirtysomething guy who got fired from a good job and started working at a movie theater and drinking his entire paycheck (and this is, again, a disservice to the actor's talents). The story had a lot of good moments that don't fit together at all, like it was all shot separately and assembled with no knowledge of the story or message it was trying to deliver.

Biggest story gripe, though: I wanna know where Kylo Ren's supposed "start of darkness" actually came from. Is this nobody Snoke just that powerful? Can he just project paranoia rays from anywhere, and so well that Luke Fucking Skywalker wouldn't notice bad juju? This bothers me immensely because - say what you want about the prequels - they set up Anakin to fall *very, very hard.* Sidious encourages it, sure, but it's 100% all-natural hatred just the same. Dudeman knows the self-righteous Jedi don't give a shit about his mom or the fate of slaves in general - just him, and just because he's useful - and he keeps that bottled up for years. But as far as anyone can tell, Han and Leia were model parents - and Luke presumably wasn't an abjectly *awful* teacher. If this turns out to be some wholesale fabrication from Snoke and we never really understand what was so goddamn "dark" about Kylo, I'm gonna be more than a little miffed.



Edited December 22nd, 2017 by Pink Peruvian Flying Bear
Pink Peruvian Flying Bear

noooooo i saw a spolier :(

Posted December 22nd, 2017 by Brandy
Brandy

Apologies for the relatively short replies here, it's been a busy couple days leading up to Christmas:

@Bandit


@Jet



Ya'll covered most of the important bits. It was - in its defense - a very nice-looking movie.

George Lucas did say it was "beautifully made". Carefully chosen words, haha. Mark Hamill wasn't subtle on his thoughts though.

Biggest story gripe, though: I wanna know where Kylo Ren's supposed "start of darkness" actually came from. Is this nobody Snoke just that powerful? Can he just project paranoia rays from anywhere, and so well that Luke Fucking Skywalker wouldn't notice bad juju? This bothers me immensely because - say what you want about the prequels - they set up Anakin to fall *very, very hard.* Sidious encourages it, sure, but it's 100% all-natural hatred just the same. Dudeman knows the self-righteous Jedi don't give a shit about his mom or the fate of slaves in general - just him, and just because he's useful - and he keeps that bottled up for years. But as far as anyone can tell, Han and Leia were model parents - and Luke presumably wasn't an abjectly *awful* teacher. If this turns out to be some wholesale fabrication from Snoke and we never really understand what was so goddamn "dark" about Kylo, I'm gonna be more than a little miffed.

They will probably not be getting into this by now, or at least I would think the chance of it is slim.

Edited December 22nd, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod

@Trevor

Not gonna spoiler tag this as it isn't a TLJ spoiler.

"the Force is strong in my family... my father has it, I have it, my sister has it. You have that power too." This may have been actually a reference to Ben but it definitely


That line from The Force Awakens trailer was literally just audio cut right out of Return of the Jedi. It's all from that moment when Luke tells Leia that she is his sister and that she has the Force. I saw a lot of people have similar thoughts to you, but I thought nothing of it because I knew it was old dialogue & not from this movie.

It was just there to trigger nostalgia.

@Pink Peruvian Flying Bear:



Posted December 22nd, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

Re: Rey's parents



Posted December 22nd, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

That said...

The Lightsaber Vision in The Force Awakens was flawed...



Posted December 22nd, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

That line from The Force Awakens trailer was literally just audio cut right out of Return of the Jedi. It's all from that moment when Luke tells Leia that she is his sister and that she has the Force. I saw a lot of people have similar thoughts to you, but I thought nothing of it because I knew it was old dialogue & not from this movie.

Except "You have that power too" was not in ROTJ, which is what caught people's attention. Luke went from "my sister has it. Yes, it's you Leia" so most of the line was ROTJ dialogue, but not all of it (unless it was from an unused/alternate cut of the scene from ROTJ?)




Edited December 22nd, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod

Except "You have that power too" was not in ROTJ, which is what caught people's attention.


I am 99% certain it is in ROTJ from the exact same conversation between Leia and Luke, it just comes like a couple of lines after the first bit about his family.

Posted December 22nd, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray



Posted December 22nd, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

I am 99% certain it is in ROTJ from the exact same conversation between Leia and Luke, it just comes like a couple of lines after the first bit about his family.

Is it? I should watch the whole scene again.

The Lightsaber Vision in The Force Awakens was flawed...

Like I said, kind of bad writing then? If so many people misconstrued what it was intended to convey, it wasn't done well. Bandit seems to be in a small minority that caught it on the first take.

Posted December 22nd, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod



It actually comes before not after:

"You're wrong Leia. You have that power too. In time, you'll learn to use it as I have... [insert stuff about his family]"

So yea they cut it up to make it work. But they definitely ripped it from ROTJ.



Edited December 22nd, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

Huh... the way they edited makes it feel they were trying to insinuate someone new.

Go back far enough and you can unravel the threads and see people were probably misreading lines and scenes, but all those pieces I mentioned is why people theorized on Rey's parents.

Edited December 22nd, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod



Edited December 24th, 2017 by Redack
Redack
Altname for Moonray

Wasnt it established somewhere that snoke was an emperor clone?

Posted December 26th, 2017 by Xhin
Xhin
 

No.

Posted December 26th, 2017 by Orion Nebula
Orion Nebula
 

The Mark Hamill comments keep getting brought up. And I'm not quite sure what to make of them. It seems like the Luke Skywalker he envisioned, like many fans envisioned, would have actually been a pretty boring character to watch. I also think the take that Luke was "optimistic" as a character was a bit...off...Maybe that's sort of where his character arc ends in the original trilogy (sort of?), but in A New Hope, he's all set to join the Empire because he doesn't see any alternative. He refuses to go save the princess with Obi-Wan initially. He chides Han Solo pessimistically (which, yes, I know, sets up him being wrong and giving Han a nice character arc). In Empire Strikes Back, he gets super impatient and frustrated at Yoda, and he sets off on a plan that ultimately fails and sets him back. And then in Return of the Jedi, he's mostly a one-dimensional character. Note that I'm not saying he doesn't exhibit optimism ever; he definitely does. But I'm not so sure his reading on his character from the original trilogy is quite right either.

So apart from how boring the Luke Skywalker he envisioned would have been (oooh, *another* Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan/Yoda character...fascinating), I also don't think his actions towards Ben were out of character either. I mean, the entire finale of the original trilogy was about him getting dangerously close to the edge of the Dark Side. He's killed a lot of people for the safety of the galaxy. Is it *really* so unthinkable that he would have a moment of doubt? The idea of a perfect, purely good character is itself kind of boring cinematically in general, but I also think makes for a more interesting Luke Skywalker. People are so focused on the moment of doubt more than the resolve. (He didn't ultimately do anything, and the feeling was fleeting. Is that *really* all that different from hacking violently away at Vader because he threatened Leia, and having to pull himself back because of his resolve? The strength of Luke was never really his power in the Force, but his resolve. That he *could* have killed Vader, and the Emperor, and he nearly did, but he pulled himself back. Which is *exactly* what he did in Last Jedi.)

Mark Hamill is great, and certainly entitled to his opinion. And I think he did a great job providing Rian Johnson with the character the story called for (which Hamill has also said worked for that story). Ideas about what is "true" or whatever is kind of nonsense when we're talking about a literal fictional universe. We can make whatever we want "true" to the universe and character. But also, I'm not quite sure where you draw the line on actors' input mattering. Harrison Ford hated Star Wars and Han Solo for a long time. Does the fact that he survived the original trilogy, against Ford's ideas, mean that his story isn't the "true Han Solo" story?

I'm not inclined to give any real weight to Hamill's opinion on the matter. He doesn't have sole ownership of the character, even by right of being the actor. And to his credit, he has also said that he thought it worked for the story, and he - as a criminally underrated actor for the last thirty years - came up with the background he needed to move the character into that dark place. But it definitely made Luke Skywalker a lot more interesting than we had seen him last.

Posted December 26th, 2017 by Jet Presto
Jet Presto
Posted December 27th, 2017 by Brandy
Brandy

I'm finally going to see this one tonight--was going to try to go last night, but it was sold out (pretty impressive a couple of weeks after the premiere!). Very excited to finally see what all the fuss is about, one way or the other!

Posted December 27th, 2017 by white lancer
white lancer
 

Well, I saw it...and honestly, I'm having a hard time feeling too strongly about it one way or the other. It's hard to really put my finger on why, but I just can't really say that I truly loved much of anything about the film, nor that I truly hated anything (though as always, I have a lot to nitpick). It's just kinda "meh" to me...and maybe that's because I feel like I've seen a lot of this before. Maybe the fatal flaw of this new series for me is just that the Empire vs. Resistance vibe feels so been-there-done-that, even though obviously the details are different. For all that the prequels did wrong (and I'm by no means saying that they were better than the new films), at least they had a different conflict at their heart, while this kinda undermines all the struggles and victories that the characters in the OT had.

On the Vice Admiral/Poe:



On Luke:



On Rey:



On Snoke:



On the Force:



Posted December 28th, 2017 by white lancer
white lancer
 

@Jet

I am not saying Mark Hamill owns Luke or anything, but he was echoing what a lot of fans were feeling after seeing the film regarding the character, so clearly he was onto something. I am not sure whether or not Harrison Ford really hates Han, but if that's true, it's pretty ironic he got what he wanted for his character while Han also stayed pretty true to himself, especially in comparison to Luke, whose actor didn't agree with the direction of the character.

Also, Luke's strength is more his resolve and not his power in the Force? He's literally stated as "powerful" and "a threat" by the Emperor, the most powerful Sith of all time. He has equal Force potential to Anakin, ie, become the most powerful Force user ever. The dude is a "Force" to be reckoned with, even if the OT didn't show him brandishing any devastating power.

And again, you mention his resolve (which I agree with), but then you're fine with that resolve constantly flickering post-ROTJ?

While his direction as grumpy hermit may have been new in contrast to previous Jedi and "interesting" in that sense, you shouldn't throw out consistency to randomly make someone "more interesting". Especially after all the plot elements they keep ripping right out of the OT, they may as well have taken this one too since it actually would have fit better. As Redack and I already mentioned, it makes no sense that Luke would have not gotten even as far to activate his lightsaber, even if he had considered using it in his mind .

Here's the comparison:

ROTJ Luke:
-comes to fight against Vader a second time; Vader has killed countless innocents and other Jedi, making him one of the most evil people in the galaxy and Luke is quite aware of this.
-consistently refuses to kill his father because he has a glimmer of hope his father will turn back to the light.
-only lashes out in anger at Vader (same evil dude as always) because he feels his sister was threatened; thus he is incredibly protective of his sister.

Post-ROTJ Luke:
-sees into the mind of Ben, who has very dark (but vague) thoughts; but so far Ben has committed no actual evil.
-considers killing his nephew because of said thoughts (nephew still hasn't actually done anything).
-literally abandons his sister and the galaxy to boot.

Edited December 29th, 2017 by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod

yet another nail in the coffin I suppose. this is startin to look less and less like a world I would want ot leave my mark on or have anythin to do with.

Posted January 7th by tnu
tnu

I think the thing that has always held Star Wars back is the obsession with the Force, and how important it is always depicted as being. Luke is a thread to the Empire because he's so powerful, but really, only because they say it, really. Throughout the entire trilogy, the ONLY thing we really see Luke do with the Force of any consequence is guide the proton torpedoes to destroy the Death Star. (Or, I suppose you could argue that him making C3P0 float earned the trust of the Ewoks, which led to the events of that battle.) But seriously, name a single thing in the original trilogy that shows Luke as being powerful with the Force? Other than the pieces of dialogue that explicitly state that, name a thing he does in the original trilogy that shows him being MORE powerful than anyone else we've seen use it. (This goes back to my entire complaint with the expanded universe, wherein there's often *too much* focus on "the Force," and that the Force is at its most interesting when it is more vague, less defined, and a bit smaller in scope within the fiction.)

I'm fine with literally all of those things happening because I don't see it as "out of character." Luke was depicted as nearly losing control out of fear or anger multiple times in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, so I don't find it soooooo unreasonable and out of character that he would have a moment similar in the future, where he would nearly lose control out of fear (worth noting: he did not actually lose control.) Second, we've seen Luke rush off to attempt these elaborate yet half-cocked plans to various degrees of success because of visions he had of the future, so I don't see it as unreasonable and out of character that he would have such a moment of doubt because of potential visions.

But the primary reason I'm fine with it is that it makes Luke a profoundly more interesting and better character. Return of the Jedi Luke is fine as a character, but did we *really* all want more of that version? Or, in the new trilogy, did we all *really* just want another stand in for the role of Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, or Yoda? (I mean, shit, if you go by the prequels, Yoda going into hiding on Dagobah is "out of character" for Yoda, too. Why stop with Luke?) I'm also tired of this argument that people stop changing or developing once they complete a particular arc. Where Luke ended up at the finale of the original trilogy was great, and perfect for that story. If they're going to bring back the original cast to serve as kind of quasi-secondary characters in this trilogy, however, I don't just want the same thing. I don't want to see the same exact Luke Skywalker (or worse, an even more boring Luke Skywalker) that we got from Return of the Jedi.

It is telling that to give Harrison Ford what he wanted, they - for literally the THIRD TIME in Star Wars - gave Han Solo the same flippin' character arc. As a fan of fiction beyond Star Wars, what they did with Luke was way better than what they did with Han. They just...reset Han and let him repeat - again, for the third time - the SAME EXACT ARC. Ok, he's "true to his character," but that's hardly interesting cinema. In a trilogy that has already been a bit too problematically derivative of the originals, taking a character on a different path gives me something new. That seems to anger a good number of Star Wars fans, and I suppose I understand it, but for me, it's kind of exactly what I want. (I mean, to be quite honest, I didn't really want to see any of the original characters return in this trilogy. From the get-go, I was hoping for something entirely new.)

This also gives us a very thematically intriguing plot that Star Wars films have never quite had. The ONE interesting thing about the prequels was the way the "ruin" the Jedi. These previously mythical badass knight-like figures are shown to be almost anything but. They're shown to be a problematic organization so full of itself that it's actually kind of hard to like them. That concept (which "ruined Jedi" in the same way, if not worse, than Rian Johnson "ruined Luke") was super fascinating. But, it also happened in a substantially worse film from a noticeably weaker director. This aspect does not get quite the attention and exploration within the films than it should have, because George Lucas is not actually a good writer (and, I'd argue, he gets too wrapped up with continuity, arbitrary connections, and "the Force" story lines for its own good). Here, we see an extension of that, with Luke having one of his typical moments of doubt suddenly cost a whole lot, and indeed even create the problem he momentarily thought he might solve. It serves as a nice parallel to the entire Jedi plot of the prequels, and also gives Luke a profoundly more interesting purpose for existing within this film. On a surface level, he appears to be just a sort of Yoda clone, but it isn't exactly the same (in the way that Obi-Wan essentially becomes a Qui-Gon clone). And thematically to the film he's in, as well as to previous films, it is more thematically relevant.

If we *really* want to play the "it makes no sense" argument, you have to dive into the original trilogy. Luke literally goes from "impatient, brash trainee who failed the Cave of Fears (or whatever it's called), then rushed off got his ass beat by Vader, and then learned everything he was told was a lie" to "suddenly he's basically a Jedi Master who can literally take down an entire organization by himself basically to free Han, who then faces Vader and the Emperor alone, and apparently developed soooo much skill as a fighter that he can now compete with Vader in a lightsaber duel?" Maybe they say something in the extended universe, but based on the films, there is virtually nothing to imply that he received any more training at all.

So just to clarify, if we're doing this "doesn't make sense" list:

- Luke fails the Cave of Fears
- disobeys Yoda and Obi-Wan to finish his training to go try and save his friends, proving he is impatient and brash
- holds his own against Vader for all of like, three minutes before getting his ass beat both in the lightsaber duel and through use of the Force
- learns Obi-Wan and Yoda lied to him and is frustrated

Then IMMEDIATELY after that:
- is so diligent in planning that he executes an elaborate plan to free Han
- has apparently become a Jedi Master so powerful that he doesn't even really need any help to take out Jabba and save Han
- evidently had already completed his training before he left to Cloud City, according to Yoda because...sure...
- can suddenly feel where Vader is when he gets to the moon of Endor
- is suddenly much improved with a lightsaber and does much better against Vader (though neither are particularly interested in using the Force anymore)


I mean, I loooove the original trilogy as much as the next guy, but let's be a little real about how well those films are written. On a base level, it doesn't make any sense at all, really, that Vader would save Luke at the end. He does, because that's where that story was always going to be, but all we really get in the build up to that moment is a brief conversation where Vader seems less than enthusiastic. Vader literally goes from trying to freeze his son in carbonite, chucking huge chunks of metal at him, and literally cutting off his hand to...suddenly not having his heart in it. NOTHING HAPPENS ON SCREEN TO SHOW WHY HE WOULD BE UNSURE.

So, I'd just argue against the whole "doesn't make sense to his character" thing, because if anyone here were ever capable of actually honestly watching the original trilogy from the perspective of a film geek rather than a Star Wars nerd, you'll see the writing isn't exactly amazing, and characters don't always act particularly consistently either. (We can also make the case that Han Solo's entire story in Return of the Jedi depicts him slightly out of character as more of a "pure good" character.)

Posted January 7th by Jet Presto
Jet Presto

You can't have Star Wars with out the force it jsut doesn't make any kriffing sense. without it it's just another standard military sci-fi an dnot even Star Wars anymore. You don't' even seem like you LIKE Star Wars to begin with Jet considering youw ant to change just bao ut everything about it.

Edited January 7th by tnu
tnu

But seriously, name a single thing in the original trilogy that shows Luke as being powerful with the Force?

Palpatine also never did anything all that spectacular on screen, but he was considered the most powerful Sith Lord, EVER. Luke didn't either. I never understood why he was so powerful, or why Anakin was, for that matter, except that he was exceptionally skilled and powerful for his age. Luke naturally had that same potential, he just had way less experience.

I'm fine with literally all of those things happening because I don't see it as "out of character." Luke was depicted as nearly losing control out of fear or anger multiple times in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, so I don't find it soooooo unreasonable and out of character that he would have a moment similar in the future, where he would nearly lose control out of fear (worth noting: he did not actually lose control.) Second, we've seen Luke rush off to attempt these elaborate yet half-cocked plans to various degrees of success because of visions he had of the future, so I don't see it as unreasonable and out of character that he would have such a moment of doubt because of potential visions.

That was also a much younger Luke, and it involved saving, not killing, his family/friends. That is a fine, fine line. I am not okay with throwing away consistency for a "more interesting character arc" which is debatable to boot.

But the primary reason I'm fine with it is that it makes Luke a profoundly more interesting and better character. Return of the Jedi Luke is fine as a character, but did we *really* all want more of that version?

Yes, I did want to see that. At least an older, more experienced version.

Or, in the new trilogy, did we all *really* just want another stand in for the role of Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, or Yoda? (I mean, shit, if you go by the prequels, Yoda going into hiding on Dagobah is "out of character" for Yoda, too. Why stop with Luke?)

It was not out of Yoda's character at all. "Into hiding we must go, until the time is right" I believe he said. Nothing indicates that this was out of character, he was preserving the Jedi way. Yoda's purpose for his exile was clearly to be isolated until the time to train Luke came about.

The most idiotic thing about the situation at the end of Revenge of the Sith was the fact the Jedi let Luke and Leia separate and grow up without Jedi training, but clearly since George Lucas didn't write the story with the prequels in mind originally....

If we *really* want to play the "it makes no sense" argument, you have to dive into the original trilogy. Luke literally goes from "impatient, brash trainee who failed the Cave of Fears (or whatever it's called), then rushed off got his ass beat by Vader, and then learned everything he was told was a lie" to "suddenly he's basically a Jedi Master

Okay, he became a Jedi Knight, not a Master. But yes, compared to the prequels, going from Padawan to Knight in a year is indeed, a rush.

who can literally take down an entire organization by himself basically to free Han,

He didn't do it himself at all. When is the last time you watched ROTJ? Luke planned this out with Leia, Chewwie, Lando and the droids. That organization was also in a weird place with limited guard at that point. Aside from having help, Luke was a Jedi, and practically no one in the galaxy knew how a Jedi fought anymore. A lot of them also clearly panicked.

who then faces Vader and the Emperor alone,

Ahem. Brave, rash, self-sacrificing dude. Same guy we saw in all of the originals. Not the same guy we saw in TLJ.

and apparently developed soooo much skill as a fighter that he can now compete with Vader in a lightsaber duel?"

Vader was then a slow, old half-machine half-man. Vader was also conflicted as Luke says numerous times, and being conflicted weakens any Sith. Read more below.

Maybe they say something in the extended universe, but based on the films, there is virtually nothing to imply that he received any more training at all.

This is simple. He clearly trained on his own. This is at least implied by the fact he has a new lightsaber, and the conversation between Han and Chewie early in the film implies Luke at least thinks he is a Jedi Knight by now. Using what Yoda taught him and taking what he learned in the fight against Vader, and now being humbled from his defeat, he has learned to take all that Yoda taught him more seriously. That is why he is so much calmer in ROTJ. I'm sure the realization that Vader was his father also gave him reason to deeply consider he could go bad if he wasn't careful.

Saber skill wise, he probably looked up something basic and then took what he already knew from Yoda and his fight with Vader, then just learned to center his defense considerably better. Vader didn't really seem to use the Force on Luke at all in ROTJ, as well. Overall, based on their saber duel in ROTJ, both Luke and Vader were having a pretty basic saber fight, so basic that at Luke's age, I could have clobbered Vader IRL if it came down to just a saber fight. So Luke, being in tune with the Force, fighting at that level isn't THAT impressive if I, a regular human being, can do better.

Now if we were talking Luke versus a Vader in E3, yeah, Anakin/Vader would destroy me in a fight and Luke should have taken quite awhile to reach that level of skill

evidently had already completed his training before he left to Cloud City, according to Yoda because...sure...

In Empire, it was stated he needed to stay and complete his training. By ROTJ, it is implied he learned more on his own.

- can suddenly feel where Vader is when he gets to the moon of Endor

This is practically instinctual, so not that impressive. It is implied no training is necessary to sense things, as Anakin did it as a kid and Leia did it with Luke, with absolutely no training from either of them at the time.

On a base level, it doesn't make any sense at all, really, that Vader would save Luke at the end. He does, because that's where that story was always going to be, but all we really get in the build up to that moment is a brief conversation where Vader seems less than enthusiastic.

It actually... does...

Vader literally goes from trying to freeze his son in carbonite,

That's just a nice way to keep a Jedi from causing trouble, so.... not sure what your point is.

chucking huge chunks of metal at him,

To disarm him?

and literally cutting off his hand to...

Again, to disarm him. Nothing ever implies Vader intended on killing Luke.

suddenly not having his heart in it. NOTHING HAPPENS ON SCREEN TO SHOW WHY HE WOULD BE UNSURE.

It's his son. This is so simple I understood it at like 5 years old. Luke also keeps saying "I feel the good in you, the conflict" and the like numerous times. You can't see Vader's face, but you can tell by his tones, his pleas to Luke, and his body language that he is indeed conflicted, despite the fact he denies it.

The Emperor told Luke to kill Vader so he could replace his father. Luke spares his father and rejects becoming a Sith. The Emperor then turns on Luke and expects Vader to watch. Vader looks to his son, who spared him, and then to the Emperor who just told his son to kill him moments before. The real question here is why the Emperor was so stupid to not foresee what was coming to him.

So, I'd just argue against the whole "doesn't make sense to his character" thing, because if anyone here were ever capable of actually honestly watching the original trilogy from the perspective of a film geek rather than a Star Wars nerd, you'll see the writing isn't exactly amazing, and characters don't always act particularly consistently either. (We can also make the case that Han Solo's entire story in Return of the Jedi depicts him slightly out of character as more of a "pure good" character.)

In the first one, he kept wanting to go pay Jabba. He came back to save Luke at the Death Star. By Empire, however long later, he still hasn't paid Jabba because he's been helping the rebels. In ROTJ, Jabba is dead and so he's back with the rebels again. This is called character progression. The dude seemed to flicker towards being a good guy and eventually he gave into that feeling. This is way more buyable than even Vader turning back to the light (which I still buy).

By the way, this all comes from a guy who has enjoyed the EU, but practically nothing surrounding the original trilogy.


Posted January 8th by Trever Leingod
Trever Leingod

Palpatine also never did anything all that spectacular on screen, but he was considered the most powerful Sith Lord, EVER. Luke didn't either. I never understood why he was so powerful, or why Anakin was, for that matter, except that he was exceptionally skilled and powerful for his age. Luke naturally had that same potential, he just had way less experience.


I mean, Palpatine did shoot lightning from his fingers. I'd say that was pretty spectacular (at least at the time, given that we had never seen anyone do anything nearly that impressive before).

That said, I do think there's a bit of a conflict in your post here, Jet: you begin it with arguing that Luke doesn't do anything especially powerful in the OT, and end it by arguing that he was too powerful to be believable in the third film. Personally, I agree with your initial assessment that Luke didn't look all that impressive--the Jabba thing he won by isolating some of Jabba's forces in close combat (where he'd have the advantage) and by catching them by surprise, while he won the Vader duel with some pretty sloppy and overly emotional swordsmanship. I don't think you can watch that duel and come out of it thinking Luke's a particularly impressive swordsman--if anything, I think Vader looked less powerful than he probably should have, though you can argue that the conflict he was experiencing (which I agree was obvious in his tone and words, and it's no stretch in my mind that seeing his son believe so strongly in his potential to change was enough to make him change his mind) played a part. I'm not going to argue that the OT are perfect films or the pinnacle of writing or anything, but I do think you're giving them too little credit on these points, Jet.

Anyway, I'm more on the side of having enjoyed Luke's character in TLJ as something different, and I think it mostly makes sense...but maybe the exact reason why he became so bitter wasn't the best. I mean, Luke's someone who believed so strongly in the potential for redemption that he risked his life to try to redeem a mass murderer who had personally cut off his own son's hand, and he considers murdering a young kid in his sleep because of his mere potential to commit evil? That's a stretch. I didn't want to see Yoda-Luke myself and thought the route they took was far more interesting, but the way they got him there made less sense the more I thought about it.

(This goes back to my entire complaint with the expanded universe, wherein there's often *too much* focus on "the Force," and that the Force is at its most interesting when it is more vague, less defined, and a bit smaller in scope within the fiction.)


I agree with half of this and completely disagree with the other half, heh. Tnu's point that the Force is what separates Star Wars from your generic space film is exactly my opinion--it's what makes Star Wars fantasy rather than science fiction, and the Jedi/Sith are the most unique things about the universe. That said, I do prefer it to be a little more vague and less all-encompassing...though I think the main culprits for "defining" it are the video games, rather than the actual novels. IIRC, through most of the EU the Force continues to be about as vague as it is in the movies, though it's been a while since I read any of the novels.

It is telling that to give Harrison Ford what he wanted, they - for literally the THIRD TIME in Star Wars - gave Han Solo the same flippin' character arc. As a fan of fiction beyond Star Wars, what they did with Luke was way better than what they did with Han. They just...reset Han and let him repeat - again, for the third time - the SAME EXACT ARC. Ok, he's "true to his character," but that's hardly interesting cinema. In a trilogy that has already been a bit too problematically derivative of the originals, taking a character on a different path gives me something new. That seems to anger a good number of Star Wars fans, and I suppose I understand it, but for me, it's kind of exactly what I want.


I actually mostly agree with this--Han was fun enough in TFA that it didn't really bother me in the moment, but it was a bit of a bummer that they kinda reversed the development he had in the OT in favor of bringing him back to being the character that he was at the beginning of the series.

Posted January 8th by white lancer
white lancer
 
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