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Feed the back.
Xhin is listening.

So, you're telling me it's perfectly OK for idiots like #85 to fill the World forum with white supremacy posts and bash Muslims and Arabs (MY FAMILY), but it's not OK for me to call him out on why his sweeping generalizations by religion and race are completely wrong?

Good to see where your priorities lie! Freedom of speech: only for those who spread hate, not the truth!

We need a ban against hate speech on this site. Until then, if people want to continue promoting these dumb ideas that are not true, I will continue to explain why they're stupid. More often than not the loudest voice is heard, not the right one. Well, the solution to that is to be both right AND loud so everyone can stop saying stupid things for the rest of their life, and that scares a lot of people who want to shut me up so they can continue being stupid and feeling good about themselves. Well, maybe if they didn't say such wrong things all the time, they wouldn't be so scared or offended by the truth. Nobody here should assume what they don't know. Nobody should generalize or compartmentalize people. Nobody should hate people on the sole basis of what they look like, the food they eat, the clothes they wear, or the religion they practice.

In my family, I know two children and their mother who are Muslim and attend a mosque. And they are nicer people than a lot of the "people" here. Until I see "people" here behaving as well as they do, how can we pretend to have nice things?

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There are 48 Replies

Wew

Posted August 4th by KnokkelMillennium

Mario, personal insults are the lowest form of debating. Also, by saying the "idiots on this site", implies plural, and that you're talking about more people than just #85. That's probably why you were warned.

Posted August 4th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Not that I need to prove anything to you, but if you were paying attention, you would have seen that I've been harshly reprimanding, tagging and even banning #85 recently. Nothing having to do with him excuses you from your insult.

You were gently reprimanded for calling other posters idiots. Not even tagged. Take the loss and go on about your way.

Edited August 4th by Cruinn-Annuin

Null as a mod you do need to prove things to people. You're absolutely right that you need to be held back.

Posted August 4th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Null as a mod you do need to prove things to people.


In many situations, yes. However, in this situation, what mariogmuy did has nothing at all to do with #85. It's just misdirection.

This subject will be split into a Feedback thread soon. Please stand by.

Posted August 4th by Cruinn-Annuin

Null: Do you still want to discuss the thread that almost happened yesterday? If so I'll see if I can post it again, or we can use the strongest man one and keep it strictly about non-acting pedophilia and keep racists and sexists out of it.

Edited August 4th by I killed Mufasa
I killed Mufasa
long live the king

Because there are so few people making new posts, some users intend to use this site to post horrendous drivel and just get away with it. This is not constructive to a positive culture at all, and that's what's driving people away from this place. If GTX0 is just going to be a place where people post white nationalist BS and diss Muslims, that's not really a good home for new or past members of Gametalk. I want to hear Xhin on this matter.

Posted August 4th by mariomguy

I want to hear Xhin on this matter.

Just FYI, per the recent very large thread in Feedback.

Xhin:

We're discussing this issue in the mod forum and content team closet at the moment too, so *something* will come out of it *somehow*.

Cruinn-Annuin:

The Content Team has arrived at a decision regarding the fate of the World forum and we are waiting on Xhin to implement it.

---

The proposed solution should deal with the majority of the issues posed by the World forum. We're just waiting on Xhin to have time to work on it.


Posted August 4th by Count Dooku

Who's on the content team again?

Posted August 4th by Agis
Agis
 

So this will happen sometime Monday/Tuesday:

  • World forum vanishes off newest posts / replies by default

  • The link gets migrated to the bottom of the quicklinks with a small disclaimer

  • Going into the world forum for the first time will give you another big disclaimer page. If you agree that things in there might be offensive and you're okay with that, you can view the forum and optionally see it on your feed. This system gets saved on an IP address basis if you're not logged in, or based on your account if you are.

  • All forum decisions return to Famov and Arch. If you have issues, take it up with them. If things still aren't resolvable and enough users have issues, we can do another forum mod election.

  • Posted August 4th by Xhin
    Xhin
    The planets are aligned

    So... hiding the forum as much as possible, basically, but still allowing hate.

    Posted August 4th by mariomguy

    It won't fix your specific problem, but it'll fix some of the current problems and pave the way for better resolution of the new problems.

    Posted August 5th by Xhin
    Xhin
    The planets are aligned

    The link gets migrated to the bottom of the quicklinks with a small disclaimer


    I cannot say that I support the decision any longer, as my support was contingent on the removal of the quicklink. However, I am not against the move, just not specifically supporting it in this form. It's still a step forward.

    Posted August 5th by Cruinn-Annuin

    I realized that, but:

  • What the world forum needs more than anything is new users, if new users can't even find the thing it's a problem

  • GTX0 needs some kind of politics board in general, again for new users

  • Simple aesthetics. 7 forums can't split into anything whatsoever.

  • Posted August 5th by Xhin
    Xhin
    The planets are aligned

    Taking this to court and seeing what they have to say about this because our first amendment rights may be at stake here.

    Inb4 SOH tags it

    Posted August 5th by weid man

    gtx0: a safe space for bigots™

    Posted August 5th by Pirate_Ninja

    Ya I'm not sure if this is quite the right move right now at least. Under Famov and Arch there was very often a laidback attitude (I'm not saying that is only ever a bad thing though). Quite a few people have already been raising issues that neither of them seem to actually want to deal with. And ya hiding the board can help but that doesn't make the problem go away, it just means that the politics (and now also religion) board is going to have this shit and thus if you don't want to be around say racism you're going to have to just avoid the board entirely.

    I think hiding the politics forum is understandable since it is what takes up all the user activity when gtx0 should probably be anything but a politics forum. What I don't agree with is also making the religion board hidden. Can we just separate them again? It's not like the spirituality/religion board was ever very active anyway so it probably wouldn't be a problem at least for now and they are rather different things anyway.

    Edited August 5th by KnokkelMillennium

    All forum decisions return to Famov and Arch. If you have issues, take it up with them. If things still aren't resolvable and enough users have issues, we can do another forum mod election


    while I like that you are using my ideas with out giving me any credit. This is pretty backwards. One neither is as active as they should be. And two ive never seen either actually do anything about any specific problems that may arise. The only real active moderator is Nul. I think he should be the third mod of that forum. This way you have one that swings to the left, the right, and for the most part a moderate.

    Posted August 5th by S.o.h.
    S.o.h.
     

    Can we just separate them again? It's not like the spirituality/religion board was ever very active anyway so it probably wouldn't be a problem at least for now and they are rather different things anyway.


    I would recommend against this, as Religion also semi-regularly turns into a shit-show as well and, as you mentioned, it's not very active anyway despite that.

    Posted August 5th by Cruinn-Annuin

    It'll probably just help if you guys elect a new left-leaning mod. Or if Arch becomes active again. Honestly this would probably fix Marion's issue as well -- the problem isn't that Famov is bad, it's just that there's a lack of balance.

    Posted August 5th by Xhin
    Xhin
    The planets are aligned

    I personally don't think that Arch wants to get involved with this sort of thing or doesn't see a reason to but I don't know them well either. Either way, we could maybe benefit from having a new mod. Arch doesn't have to be removed per se.

    Posted August 5th by KnokkelMillennium

    Cancel that, I just realized arch is probably less active only because of the moderation changes.

    Posted August 5th by Xhin
    Xhin
    The planets are aligned

    Anyway I'll bring this up with arch and Famov and you guys as well on my next break.

    Posted August 5th by Xhin
    Xhin
    The planets are aligned

    An election could be interesting. I mean if that's the reason Arch is inactive it's all the more reason to get a new mod in at the very least. But if activity is a problem with Arch and Famov and Famov is here like everyday there probably aren't many people to choose from who would actually do something about it. Like I may actually be one of the only choices and I'm not even consistently active anyway. Just active some days and some others not very. If you can't find a new mod, you may have to put this whole thing on hold because you can't just leave it under their control entirely if that may also mean other staff can't intervene.

    Edited August 5th by KnokkelMillennium

    I would recommend against this, as Religion also semi-regularly turns into a shit-show as well and, as you mentioned, it's not very active anyway despite that.


    But not in a way that would drive off random people as easily. I think the problem was mostly just racism and shit. Like it's whatever. I really don't want the religion forum to be hidden nor do I think it needs to be. Maybe it needs some specific rules but I don't think it needs to be hidden.

    Edited August 5th by KnokkelMillennium

    Sorry for the triple post but I feel this should be said.

    This way you have one that swings to the left, the right, and for the most part a moderate.


    Based on Arch's posting history he very much gave off the impression that he is of the economic left, not really the left that deals with social issues and whatnot. So it's still not really quite balanced if I'm correct. Also there's a decent chance that despite all Null has done, he wouldn't take it far enough to actually fully deal with the problem because he'll still want to maintain free speech in a sense. This is perhaps implied by his first post in your last feedback thread actually.

    "1. Ban people for talking about racist issues, even if it's not overtly offensive. This will only happen over my cold, dead body."

    While that isn't inherently indicative that he wouldn't go far enough and simply talking about issues involving race shouldn't be banned, considering the context of it, it almost seems to come with the implication that if say Red Leaf or #85 word things in a more "polite" way while still implicating enough things to make it clear that they're being a bit racist nothing may be done about it. And really why would a moderate do anything about it in that situation?

    Either way I think getting someone new to be the next mod is a better idea. I'm not trying to spit fire at anyone even Null with this though. These are genuine concerns and it would be much harder to express them without naming names.

    Edited August 5th by KnokkelMillennium

    The way i see it, if there are people active enough to complain, there will be people active enough to moderate. This will always be true.

    As much as I like the election process, I'm going to give arch and Famov a chance to address this stuff first because the content team switch definitely would have impacted their activity, and switching back will change things up as well.

    Posted August 5th by Xhin
    Xhin
    The planets are aligned

    .

    Edited August 6th by KnokkelMillennium

    The way i see it, if there are people active enough to complain, there will be people active enough to moderate. This will always be true.
    moderating effectively is nowhere near as easy as complaining

    limited staff size isn't the only reason they're not both universal

    Posted August 6th by Pirate_Ninja

    I was fairly sleepy when I was posting that. I should probably be clear though if it wasn't already clear. When I was talking about Arch and social issues I didn't mean social issues in a general sense, just that he has expressed things that very much give the impression that his views don't seem to be the kind at all to be interested in policing various forms of hate speech and whatnot.

    But ya like I said, either make them enforce rule 2c or don't do any of this yet or get someone who will enforce it. Because if nothing else, the times that Null was the only one acting shows that neither of them likely had an interest in enforcing it because they were both very likely around at some point where it was happening. And aside from all I've said both have displayed a rather passive nature with regards to enforcement sometimes for the best but not always.

    Edited August 6th by KnokkelMillennium

    moderating effectively is nowhere near as easy as complaining


    Very true. It's a learning process. Being a site owner is a learning process too.

    just that he has expressed things that very much give the impression that his views don't seem to be the kind at all to be interested in policing various forms of hate speech and whatnot.


    Probably true, but I also think he's willing to work on this problem in some way that satisfies you guys.

    Because if nothing else, the times that Null was the only one acting shows that neither of them likely had an interest in enforcing it because they were both very likely around at some point where it was happening


    Well to be fair, removing all moderators from all forums and making an outside team more aggressive in site policing is a pretty drastic change.

    Posted August 6th by Xhin
    Xhin
    The planets are aligned

    Probably true, but I also think he's willing to work on this problem in some way that satisfies you guys.


    That'd be great but I think in the end we may still be better off with another mod. Especially if it ends up not being enough.

    Well to be fair, removing all moderators from all forums and making an outside team more aggressive in site policing is a pretty drastic change.


    Ya. But I mean they haven't really done much of anything before either.

    Edited August 6th by KnokkelMillennium

    Hate speech should not be OK anywhere. Whatever you guys want to do with moving forums and people around, just keep that in mind. I've had it with the posts saying Muslims are out to get us and we need to stop them because they're all viscous. Seriously, the people who support threads like that are viscous. This is probably part of the reason why Shadowfox AKA Yosouf left. Even though he was agnostic, he still hailed from the Middle East, and so does my family.

    I am very upset that this tone is even tolerated here on GT at all. Sure, get upset with me for speaking the truth, but threads denying the holocaust, suggesting Muslims are evil, blacks are inferior, and white people are the master race are tolerated because a couple users agree with that sentiment. This hate speech should not belong anywhere on Gametalk. If that kind of speech continues, then I must also continue to remind everyone just how small-minded they are and how wrong this is. But people should never use Gametalk as a place to spread hate.

    Posted August 6th by mariomguy

    Ultimately GTX0 just needs to decide wtf it wants to be and stop trying to please everyone. You can't have it both ways.

    Posted August 6th by Moonray
    Moonray
     

    I've had it with the posts saying Muslims are out to get us and we need to stop them because they're all viscous.


    Ya shit like this does get old. Like even if you want to keep discussion on it open why? That discussion has been done a million times and it's always the same shit. Ultimately it's going more harm than good and no one cares what the other person has to say on the issue. Same with general racism, holocaust denial and so on. There's no reason to keep this around especially when it's a dead end discussion anyway.

    Posted August 6th by KnokkelMillennium

    No one responded to my feedback thread. I guess I should count my blessings since I would probably have to debate everyone on the site if they spotted it.

    Posted August 6th by I killed Mufasa
    I killed Mufasa
    long live the king

    That'd be great but I think in the end we may still be better off with another mod. Especially if it ends up not being enough.


    Well, we'll find out in a month or two. The election process is going to happen regardless of what happens this month. I'd also like to make it a yearly or maybe twice-a-year thing as well.

    Ultimately GTX0 just needs to decide wtf it wants to be and stop trying to please everyone. You can't have it both ways.


    Ultimately it's whatever the users want it to be. If you guys decide against hate speech, so be it.

    I'll respond to your thread in a bit, mufasa.

    Posted August 6th by Xhin
    Xhin
    The planets are aligned

    Well, we'll find out in a month or two. The election process is going to happen regardless of what happens this month. I'd also like to make it a yearly or maybe twice-a-year thing as well.


    Can we get details on how it's going to work exactly or is it just going to be a thread where everyone votes for literally anyone? Or will we get to decide that as well?

    Edited August 6th by KnokkelMillennium

    I mean, unless you want me to keep repeating the same response ad-nauseum, yeah, hate speech is not going to be constructive to any good conversation whatsoever.

    Please note I'm not advocating for a ban against talking about ISIS, Al-Queda, Islamists, the Muslim Brotherhood, or on the flip side the KKK, Westboro Baptist Church, or the American Republican party, or even problems with religion in general, this would be a ban against shitting on specific religions and races for the heck of it. If someone wanted to talk about how the Islamic religion gives rise to proponents of Sharia Law and extremism that's fine, but they need to back up their claims in a way that doesn't just end with me going "my family and friends are not terrorists, STFU."

    That should be the bar to test the claim. If something makes me say "my family and friends are not terrorists, STFU" and the thread goes dead, then it's probably hate speech that doesn't belong here.

    Posted August 6th by mariomguy

    Can we get details on how it's going to work exactly or is it just going to be a thread where everyone votes for literally anyone?


    I'll make a list of the users who *can* vote -- anyone who actually uses that forum, minus sock puppets. Then yeah, you guys can vote on whoever. The results will depend on what kind of format the voting becomes but will be based on those with the most votes in some way and I'll try to hit a consensus with the users on the choice as well.

    Last time the forum decided that it needed both someone on the right and someone on the left.

    Posted August 6th by Xhin
    Xhin
    The planets are aligned

    i'm going to run on a platform of banning #85

    Posted August 7th by poptart!

    Ultimately it's whatever the users want it to be. If you guys decide against hate speech, so be it.


    That only works so far, what if a few months down the road a few people kick up enough fuss about wanting hate speech back. It's a constant flip-flop on this site. One day porn is disallowed entirely, the next it's allowed if it's in a "secret club" post and then the next it's very specifically banned again in [Site Rules].

    If GTX0 had a clearly defined standard it wants to hold itself to and stuck to it, posts like this would not exist because there would be no problem to discuss.

    Edited August 7th by Moonray
    Moonray
     

    I'll make a list of the users who *can* vote -- anyone who actually uses that forum, minus sock puppets


    This may not matter anymore since as far as I'm concerned everyone else is just a random troll/asshole but there is one person I brought here who hasn't posted here in a while by the look of it (though I've told them about this election, it's purpose, and how there may be a change so who knows). How are you going to determine that exactly?

    i'm going to run on a platform of banning #85


    I already technically made that my platform before you did though in SOH's thread! But really I'm sure that the existing rules could be used to do that naturally anyway which is probably the best way to handle that tbh. The only problem lately has been that they haven't been enforced to their maximum potential.

    One day porn is disallowed entirely, the next it's allowed if it's in a "secret club" post and then the next it's very specifically banned again in [Site Rules].


    That's mostly because some staff just couldn't make up their mind or something I think not really users.

    Edited August 7th by KnokkelMillennium

    That's mostly because some staff just couldn't make up their mind or something I think not really users.


    True, but my point is more "if there was a defined standard this couldn't happen". The same would apply to staff. It's not just about giving users a specific standard to adhere to. Its sets the expectation and clear guidelines for staff as well. They wouldn't have to make up their mind on the issue, because it'd already be decided.

    Posted August 7th by Moonray
    Moonray
     

    Also worth asking. Are users gonna be able to vote for themselves? People are allowed to do that irl.

    Edited August 7th by KnokkelMillennium

    If GTX0 had a clearly defined standard it wants to hold itself to and stuck to it, posts like this would not exist because there would be no problem to discuss.


    I'm okay with having posts like this. There's a bit of drama for a while but we eventually resolve the issues and move on. Granted it's taken like 9 years to get to the point where we solve this as a consensus instead of me doing something crazy and then the mods dealing with the fallout.

    Sometimes things are unresolvable at the time and become resolvable later. I'm hoping I can like incrementally reverse the damage I've done by making wild changes without accountability.

    How are you going to determine that exactly?


    Scan the database, weed stuff out and then get Famov / Arch / nullfather to make sure the list looks right.

    > Are users gonna be able to vote for themselves?

    Yeah but unless you have other people voting for you it would just be a wasted vote.

    Posted August 7th by Xhin
    Xhin
    The planets are aligned

    Fair enough. I just want to make it clear though that "Just Because" should probably be added just in case they decide to participate. I figure that most people who remember that name would be fine with that too.

    Posted August 7th by KnokkelMillennium

    I'll add him if he meets my criteria.

    Posted August 7th by Xhin
    Xhin
    The planets are aligned
    Reply to: Ban Hate Speech
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