Warning: mysqli_fetch_row() expects parameter 1 to be mysqli_result, boolean given in /var/www/html/gtx0.com/core.php on line 94
3 sexes in danpyr - Gtx0 ?>


3 sexes in danpyr
Posted: Posted February 21st, 2019 by linguistcat
View Source Report Thread Views

Danpyr are a constructed species I have worked on (and changed many times) for many years. They are currently gray skinned, many-eyed and relatively humanoid otherwise. But instead of one sex, or two sexes like is common in complex creatures on Earth, they have three sexes: One that I would classify as female-like, and two that are male-like. I would like to make native terms for these sexes, as they are all seen as separate by the species themselves, but I have not yet.

I had a thread about them on the old board that I'm sure I could find with time, but I think for now I might use this thread to just flesh out how their sexes affected their society in the past and the present in their universe, how they view gender as a social construct and gender roles in their society.

There are 34 Replies
Load all posts On page: 1 2 3 4
  settingsSettings

The obvious burning question is how does reproduction work?

Also it's worth pointing out that bees / ants / other hive creatures actually have three sexes:

  • A female queen who gets really big and has all the kids

  • Female workers, who don't reproduce and do most of the work (I think they might even be sterile)

  • Males, whose job is to reproduce with the queen

  • Posted February 21st, 2019 by Xhin
    View Source Quote Report
    Xhin
     

    I read a sci-fi novel a while back (Player of Games by Iain M. Banks) where there was a race that had three sexes. There was a male, a female and an "apex" that facilitated the actual fertilization as an intermediary. The apices also had the benefit of sexual dimorphism in that they were the larger and stronger sex. The apices were the dominant class in society both because of their literal strength and because they controlled the reproductive direction instead of the males.

    Edited February 21st, 2019 by nullfather
    View Source Quote Report

    Interestingly with ants, the males control not whether the queen will reproduce or not, but what gender it will be -- if they fertilize an egg it'll turn into a female, if they don't it'll become male.

    Posted February 21st, 2019 by Xhin
    View Source Quote Report
    Xhin
     

    @Xhin:
    Worker ants are conditionally-sterile females, who never mate.
    They’re sterile just so long as they care for a Queen.
    If a colony’s last Queen dies and is not replaced, the workers eventually each lay an unfertilized egg, from which a male ant is “hatched” (if that’s the right word?).

    There are some species of ants who have gamergates or “working wives”, that is, fertile workers.

    —————

    @nullfather:
    I really liked that book, too! Actually I like the entire “Culture” series.


    Edited February 23rd, 2019 by chiarizio
    View Source Quote Report

    Yeah, ants and other eusocial insects have multiple sexes. Tho I don't think any of them have more than two at any given time involved in reproduction. In many cases, like the example with some ants, one sex doesn't reproduce at all except in very specific circumstances.

    I don't think there are even insects (or species on Earth) in which three different sexes would mate with each other even sequentially to produce offspring. Let alone members of 3 sexes mating at the same time or near simultaneously to produce viable offspring. Maybe multiple members of one sex with a member of another sex, but often that's not NECESSARY to produce offspring and only in rare conditions does this result in individuals with multiple fathers (and I'm not sure how multiple "mothers" would occur but I'm not ruling it out just that it would be vanishingly rare).

    I will say that not accounting for any deaths that would increase or decrease the numbers of certain sexes, females and one type of male are about as likely as each other, and the third sex is a bit less common, but still common enough to not be an issue.

    Danpyr on the other hand, do require all three sexes to reproduce. I've considered a few options:
    1) A "female" danpyr can mate with a "male" of either type, and then within a certain period (days or maybe weeks?), a male of the alternate type, to have a viable pregnancy. Females might be more particular about staying with one or the other male sex unless she specifically wants to become pregnant.
    2) A "female" must mate first with a "type 1 male" and then a "type 2 male" in order to have a viable pregnancy. It might produce a viable pregnancy for a longer period after the first mating. But a female who would prefer not to be pregnant could decide to only mate with type 2 males.
    3) A "female" must mate with both other sexes near simultaneously. On the negative side, it would be literally impossible to have more little danpyr if you have one member of each sex but not together at the same time. However, it might be more interesting from a cultural pov, since the two "male" sexes would have good reasons to bond, or females would have good reason to make a social construct like marriage that would keep triads (or at least a female or possibly a set of sisters and the rarer of the two other sexes) together as a unit.

    The first two would be easier evolution wise, while the last wouldn't be impossible but might have coevolved with the danpyr as they started to use tools, language and creating cultures that brought many proto-danpyr into closer knit groups.

    Posted February 22nd, 2019 by linguistcat
    View Source Quote Report

    I don't think there are even insects (or species on Earth) in which three different sexes would mate with each other even sequentially to produce offspring. Let alone members of 3 sexes mating at the same time or near simultaneously to produce viable offspring.


    Nope, to do that you'd need to be an earth plant:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_reproductive_morphology
    Females might be more particular about staying with one or the other male sex unless she specifically wants to become pregnant.


    Pair bonding seems to be based on the amount of mates available, so I imagine your danpyr (who actually *require* multiple mates) would be around both of them preferentially.

    A "female" must mate first with a "type 1 male" and then a "type 2 male" in order to have a viable pregnancy.


    Couldn't she also mate only with type 1 males?

    3) A "female" must mate with both other sexes near simultaneously.


    That would definitely turn "pair bonding" into "triad bonding".

    . On the negative side, it would be literally impossible to have more little danpyr if you have one member of each sex but not together at the same time.


    That's no worse than single human mothers (or fathers) being unable to have children by themselves. While they absolutely can in other species.


    Posted February 22nd, 2019 by Xhin
    View Source Quote Report
    Xhin
     

    I should mention again, I don't have "native terms" for these sexes. I am only using "female", "type 1 male" and "type 2 male" because the "females" produce egg-like gametes (big, less mobile) and carry the pregnancy, and the two "male" sexes produce "sperm-like" gametes (smaller, more mobile, less costly) and only directly care for offspring that have been born if at all.

    Also those three options are different possibilities that I will not use together.

    In any case, equating it to a single mother or father still having kids without a dedicated partner is wrong. Humans can hook up with one member of the other sex once, and possibly produce a pregnancy. A danpyr, if I went with things needing to be simultaneous, would NEVER be able to produce a pregnancy with only one other danpyr. A female danpyr who only had sex with "type 1s" in any of the possible mating strategies I suggested would also NEVER get pregnant. The same would be true if ve only had relations with type 2s. Or in the second possibility, if ve had sex with a type 2 and a little later, a type 1.

    I should go to sleep before I try to explain a different way, if it's still confusing.

    Posted February 22nd, 2019 by linguistcat
    View Source Quote Report

    There are sexually-reproducing RL animal species with more than two mating types, and/or more than two total-outcrossing classes.
    But none of them require, or even allow, more than two parents per individual offspring.
    I am not sure that calling these types or classes, “sexes”, is completely appropriate, unless there are different reproductive roles for mothers and fathers.

    I’ll have to look at Xhin’s “plant” article.

    (Edit: I looked at it, and it seems those plants still have at most two parents per specimen!)

    Edited February 25th, 2019 by chiarizio
    View Source Quote Report

    I can use the term out crossing classes or mating classes, but regardless, all three are necessary and no two are interchangeable.

    I'm thinking that simultaneous/near-simultaneous mating would be too constricting from an evolutionary POV. So I'm taking that option off the table. So the only issue now is if the mating needs to occur in a certain order to be viable or not.

    Posted February 22nd, 2019 by linguistcat
    View Source Quote Report
    Edited February 22nd, 2019 by chiarizio
    View Source Quote Report
    Next page Load rest of pages On page: /
    Rules | Report Issue | Request Feature | Roadmap Facebook Page | Discord Group
    GTX0 © 2009-2020 Xhin GameTalk © 1999-2008 lives on
    You are not forgotten, Kevin, Liane, Norma, Jason, and Garrett